The Corrupt Gun Industry In Action

[MrBenchley]

This is why the industry is frantically trying to engineer liability immunity for itself...

"Six people were charged in U.S District Court with federal firearms violations. Four were arrested and released Tuesday on their own recognizance after appearing before Magistrate Judge James England.
During a meeting with an undercover agent on Sept. 24, 2002, the affidavit shows, an agent "gave Bob another $1,000 towards the Jeffrey 450/400 rifle. Bob bragged, ... 'We sold 900 guns in three days.' (and) 'We are working on a deal three times the size of that one, 3000 guns.'" "

http://www.news-leader.com/today/1217-6chargedaf-245864.html

"Glock’s and other gun manufacturers’ insistence on confidentiality agreements is common in product liability settlements. The agreements have kept critical information about the safety record of the gun from the public and are a prime example of how the gun industry actively conceals information about injuries and fatalities connected with its products. The industry has done so with the help of Congress and the powerful National Rifle Association lobby.
Like other gun makers, Glock is not required to report complaints and injuries to any federal or state agency. And Glock cannot be compelled to inform gun buyers of problems others have had with its weapons.
The News documented more than 50 lawsuits against Glock in the past eight years. In those with confirmed settlements, Glock insisted on confidentiality agreements.
Despite the agreements, Glock pistols, the weapon of choice for more than half the nation’s police departments, have earned a reputation among some gun experts as a firearm with too few safety features and that is too quick to fire. Its reputation is directly linked to its design, which ignores important safety features. "

http://www.detnews.com/2003/specialreport/0312/15/a11-7995.htm

[PackedForPerth]

1. So we hear from the crowd that basically wants handguns banned again...

In fact, the gun’s safety features — extremely effective in preventing discharges if the gun is dropped or hit — automatically are turned off every time the trigger is depressed.

A Glock is dangerous only in the hands of a person who is either an idiot or who hasn't been checked out on it. It has a feather-light pull... so what? Ever try to keep the sights on the mark with a handgun that has a very stiff pull? Damned near impossible. :eyes:

Glock went to a lot of trouble to make a handgun that wouldn't discharge when dropped. That earns them a lot of credit in my book. You only have to have been around when a handgun falls and hits the floor and goes off to appreciate a Glock.

[MrBenchley]

3. Too too funnny....

"Glock went to a lot of trouble to make a handgun that wouldn't discharge when dropped. "
Yippie-fuckinn-doo! Surprised they didn't earn something like the Nobel prize for that...

[Superfly]

4. I think you are a little off base here, Bench...

the Glock safety record is incredible. Their firearms are designed so that it takes a concerted, focused effort on the part of the shooter to discharge the weapon. It's a double action only weapon, meaning that it does not stay cocked, but has to be cocked, through the trigger pull each and every time. Although I am not a fan of Glocks, they do have a wonderful safety and reliability record.

[Dolomite]

5. Article Chock Full of BS:Glock only has 2 models with a 3.5lb connector...

...the models 34 & 35. They were both designed to fit the required dimensions for use in competition during International Defensive Pistol Association matches (IDPA).

I have to kind of smirk at the allegation that Glocks have "feathery triggers". The major complaint among competitive shooters with Glocks is the trigger. I mean, I like them for their reliability safety features - but I hear a lot of people complain that the trigger reminds them of a water pistol!

Unless a department allows their cops to carry one of those models with 3.5lb connector (which in reality yields the user a trigger pull of around 4.25lb after a half inch of "take-up" travel at 3lbs - considered ideal by many self-defense experts) - they're more than likely to be given the standard 5lb connector - which in reality breaks at 5.25lbs (again, after a .5 inch of take-up at 3lbs (like a well used or finally tuned revolver).

Enter the NYPD - they wanted a heavier trigger - so Glock made the New York Trigger Spring Olive (NYTSO) - this gave the police a trigger that takes so much strength to pull (7.75lb after a .5" take up at 4.5lbs) that it has an adverse effect on accuracy - which I'm sure will be grounds for another lawsuit before too long.

[GRClarkesq]

39. Right

3.5lb connector never supposed to be used for law enforcement or self defense. Glock would hang you out to dry in court.

I had a G34, I am not sure the 3.5lb was that much better than standard 5lb connector anyway.

[MrSandman]

41. Yikes

No wonder 14 shots failed to mortally wound that Samurai

[Dolomite]

2. WOW! Another Jeffrey 450/400 rifle kept off the streets!

Thank God those brave ATF agents are tackling the heoric cause of keeping HIGH-END SINGLE SHOT HUNTING RIFLES out of the hands of hoodlums. We should all sleep a little safer tonight.

re: Glocks: “The gun has no manual safety to prevent it from firing if the trigger is accidentally pulled.” And the Double-Action revolvers that the police were using for 90 years before Miami Vice made semi-auto required equipment did? Wrong.

As far as Glocks being unsafe, let’s just say people have a hard time admitting that they can’t follow rule #1 of firearm safety (keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire). There are only about 4 million of those things out there – and they simply do not go off by themselves. The old adage “there’s a lawyer attached to every bullet” is finally being worked both ways.

[Withergyld]

6. How is this the "corrupt gun industry in action"???

This is why the industry is frantically trying to engineer liability immunity for itself...

"Six people were charged in U.S District Court with federal firearms violations. Four were arrested and released Tuesday on their own recognizance after appearing before Magistrate Judge James England.
During a meeting with an undercover agent on Sept. 24, 2002, the affidavit shows, an agent "gave Bob another $1,000 towards the Jeffrey 450/400 rifle. Bob bragged, ... 'We sold 900 guns in three days.' (and) 'We are working on a deal three times the size of that one, 3000 guns.'" "

It looks like a story about 2 dealers that broke the law and are being prosecuted for it.
How would the proposed legislation (S659) have protected these individuals from liability for criminal action???
BTW Tom Daschle is a cosponsor of s659.

[MrBenchley]

7. Yeah, they're all Albert Sweitzeneggers

Tough luck for those folks shot by any of those 3,900 guns, eh, with?

[the_acid_one]

8. It is not the makers....

....responsibility to insure that the third or forth buyer of a product is psychologically balanced enough to own a gun.


Glock sells gun to Government Approved FFL holder, who then sells gun to NICS approved gun-buyer, who then sells gun to his cousin, who maybe uses it in a murder in the future.

Thats hardly Glocks responsiblity. They're so far removed from the transaction that there's no way any sane person can begin to think it's their fault.

Even if the FFL holder sells to someone and they go commit a murder, thats not Glocks fault either. The government liscensed said FFL holder, and they NICS approved the buyer. So basically it's a government approved transaction all the way.

And if the FFL holder is corrupt, then why did the government liscense them in the first place? Seems to me, that it's THEIR responsibility to insure that FFL holders they liscense are clear. Glock doesnt have the resources, or the duty to insure that all FFL holders are "Extra OK" after the government gives them the initial ok.

SO How is glock responsible for any of this? They're not.
No more so then ginsu, if I stab someone with a ginsu knife. Or Honda, if someone runs over me in their civic.

If Glocks product works as advertised, and Glock sells only to liscensed FFL holders or Police Departments, then Glock has done their job and isnt liable, and thats all there is to it.

[MrBenchley]

9. Yeah, that's why they need special immunity...

because they're NOT liable...(snicker)

Amazing how desperately the RKBA crowd will spin...

[the_acid_one]

10. No.

Because the VPC and Brady camp have decided if they cant put gun manufactures out of business by passing ever more draconian gun laws that they're going to do it by filing frivolous lawsuits.

Even if the defendant wins a lawsuit, it still costs you money to do so. The way your playmates are abusing the legal system is why Gun Manufacturers are being granted immunity.

There are no corrupt anti-knife or anti-car groups out there to encourage people to sue ginsu when they get stabbed, or run over.

[MrBenchley]

11. Hahahahahahahha.....

Wow, gun nuts will buy just about any pantload the gun lobby peddles, won't they?

"The way your playmates are abusing the legal system is why Gun Manufacturers are being granted immunity."
Frist and his GOP pals couldn't push it through this session...and I doubt they will even trry during an election year.

[BullDozer]

50. GOP coup? I don't think so!

Frist and his GOP pals couldn't push it through this session

Gee Benchly the house passed it's version of the bill 285-140 with the power balance being:
Republicans: 229
Democrats: 205
Independents: 1

That means some Democrats voted for H. R. 1036.

Now if we look at the Senate we will see that the bill S. 659: "Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act was introduced by Sens. Larry Craig (R-Idaho) and Max Baucus (D-Mont.) and is cosponsored by Democrats Daschle, BREAUX, DORGAN, JOHNSON, LANDRIEU, LINCOLN, MILLER, Nelson (Nebraska), and Reed.

So it's just a GOP thing eh? Tell us a another fairy tale.

[demsrule4life]

30. We have to spin and spin

trying our best to make those two brain cells of the average anti connect.

[MrBenchley]

31. Yeah, THAT's the reason for those bogus Jefferson quotes

and all the links to right wing cesspools like Newsmax.....(snicker)

[demsrule4life]

43. Is that the same as posting a story

then makeup something that is not in the story and argue about it for an entire day?

[MrBenchley]

44. Gee, dems...

Who did that?

[RoeBear]

33. I thought you'd remember this...

...by now.

If enough people sue a company, even lawsuits that have no merit, they can drive a company into bankruptcy. And that's exactly the anti's plan.

[MrBenchley]

12. More from the Glock article

""Firearm safety is up to you, the end-user," Gaston Glock states in a message to customers on his company’s Web site. "The safe handling of firearms, like morality, cannot be legislated into existence." "
Wow....Gaston Glock, moralist. Funny he didn't mention that the safe manufacture of firearms and other products can be and often is legislated into existence...whch is why he had to correct this problem when he sold his toys in Finland.

"One of the Glock’s most frightening attributes is its ability to easily be converted into a full automatic weapon capable of firing at the rate of 1,000 rounds a minute.
Glock has issued no warnings and made no changes in its design that would prevent its weapons from being converted into submachine guns.
Experts say the problem can be corrected with minor changes in how Glock pistols are made.
A full automatic Glock will fire 33 bullets in seconds with one trigger pull. And the gun can be quickly converted to full automatic mode for as little as $10 with homemade parts. It is a well-documented danger known to law enforcement. "
Ain't that swell? By the way, wasn't it not long ago the RKBA crowd was on here assuring us it was next to impossible to convert guns to full auto? Sure it was.

[Superfly]

13. More hyperbole from the antis...

"Firearm safety is up to you, the end-user"
----End of story.

"frightening attributes"
----Frightening, to whom? I think I will be the most non-afraid person if somebody was trying to shoot me with a full auto glock.

"danger known to law enforcement"
----So, how many cops have been killed by full auto Glocks?

[the_acid_one]

14. if it's so easy....

... do it.

Almost any gun semi automatic gun can be modified to full auto one way or another. But if you're not a firearms expert the chances of it happening are low, and to top it all off, any non-professionally converted weapon is going to be dangerous to use.

The other day, someone told me that all you have to do is file down the firing pin to make your AR-15 full auto.

This is accomplished because it would allow the rifle to slamfire, problem is, once you pull the trigger, the best case scenario is your rifle will empty itself, even if you take your finger off the trigger. Once it starts slamfiring, you cant stop it. So basically, it wastes all your ammo at best.

More likely is it will cause the gun to explode in your face when a round fires out of battery because your firing pin struck the primer to soon

Illegal full auto conversions are more likely to ruin the gun, and maybe you in the process.

But basically, what you're telling us is that experts have figured out a way to convert a glock to full auto. Big fuckin deal, they're experts, they're supposed to figure out these things.

Maybe I'll be concerned when a bunch of hoods figure out how to reliably convert the gun to full auto without making it more likely to explode in your hand then to fire as desired.

Once again, we have an anti telling us that a gun can be "easily converted to full auto" when they have no idea how to do it, and neither does 99.9% of criminals, because a firearms expert could do it.

Well shit, who would have thought an expert could do something that a laymen couldnt? I'll be damned.....



Oh, and to top it all off..There are already strict laws against full auto conversions. Wont the law be enough to stop these criminals? I thought that more laws would stop any problem!

[MrBenchley]

19. And once again

we have a pro-gun person telling us that a newspaper account is lying. Wonder which has the credibility?

"Wont the law be enough to stop these criminals?"
Not if Gaston Glock and his corrupt pals can engineer special immunity.

[the_acid_one]

21. I've explained why they're wrong...

...and thats all I set out to do. You can hide behind "They're a news paper! Wahhhh!". If you like.

But the fact's remain. Of all the anti-gun people who trumpet how this that and that can be "easily converted to full auto!" None of them can explain how.

I could probably do it, several other pro-gun people on this board could probably do it. But 99% of the population cant. If only a few people can do it, then it's hardly a widespread problem that calls for a massive rewrite of the constitution.

Just because a few people can build bombs out of fertilizer or drano, doesnt mean you should ban them. Just because a few people can make a machine pistol out of a glock, doesnt mean you should ban glocks

[MrBenchley]

23. Too TOO funny......

So it can't be done because YOU don't think I can do it (although you and all the other "enthusiasts" here can)?

There's a compellingly logical argument....no wonder the RKBA crowd thinks Mary Rosh is a scientist.

[the_acid_one]

25. Take your words out of my mouth.

No, I think it can be done. I just dont think very many people can do it, so it's no more of a problem then the easy availabilty of fertalizer.

[slackmaster]

47. Not lying, but failing to verify information

Newspapers publish incorrect information as fact all the time.

[RoeBear]

15. Capable of 1,000 rounds a minute...

...from an 8 round magazine? WOW!

[the_acid_one]

16. I'm still looking for...

....one of thouse 1,000 round magazines :)

[Superfly]

17. I think they're referring to the belt-fed Glock, as pictured here

[the_acid_one]

28. Close enough...

[DonP]

34. ROTFLMAO!!!

Damn, now I want one of those for my 1911 .45 ACP.

1000 rounds and the stopping power to shoot down Japanese Zeros and stop Nazi tanks with a single round. Imagine that!

Now if we can just combine that with the ballistics characteristics of the .223 round that the anti's told us can just "go on forever" it will be the end of the arms race.

I always try to get my ballistic and gunsmithing information from anti-second amendment zealots. They are so wise in the mechanics of firearms.

[the_acid_one]

18. Furthermore...

And the gun can be quickly converted to full automatic mode for as little as $10 with homemade parts.

WOW! Thats so amazing!

I could also quickly throw together a bomb with less then $50 in household chemicals if I felt inclined.

You tell me which is more dangerous :shrug:

[alwynsw]

38. I keep tellin' ya

Pee is free and aspirin is cheap. That's all you need to make a perfectly functional bomb.

Jeez! Why buy chemicals?

[beevul]

20. Hardly accurate...

To turn this:

"Glock built the safety for guns manufactured for the Finnish military, the gun maker’s general counsel and vice president Paul F. Jannuzzo revealed in a deposition. He said the company made 50 such pistols."-article

Into this:

"Wow....Gaston Glock, moralist. Funny he didn't mention that the safe manufacture of firearms and other products can be and often is legislated into existence...whch is why he had to correct this problem when he sold his toys in Finland."-MrBenchley


He made 50 pistols. He was NOT forced to. It had nothing to do with selling them in finland per-se, but selling them TO the finnish military. The article doesn't even say IF they were even shipped to the finnish military, only that they were "manufactured for the Finnish military".

[MrBenchley]

22. Too TOO funny....

How desperately CAN the RKBA crowd spin?

"It had nothing to do with selling them in finland per-se, but selling them TO the finnish military. "
So it can be done....and isn't done here only because nobody is making the scumbag do so. Of course, we have RKBA apologists trying to pretend the problem is everybody else's fault....and loose gun laws thanks to the GOP.

[beevul]

24. Do you know anything about

Manufacturing?

50 guns would pretty much be considered prototype quantity, bench. The article didn't say, but it sure sounds from what it DID say, that they were prototype guns.

A run of 50 guns that differed radically from normal production units would be prototype guns. Thats what those 50 sound like to me.


Iether way, a different safety ISN'T necessary, if the USER understands HOW the built in safety works on a glock.


God forbid anyone have to KNOW what they're doing when using/operating a thing......

[demsrule4life]

26. Antis are to dumb to figure it out

one safety or 100 safties, pull the trigger the gun goes bang.

[the_acid_one]

27. "User friendly"...

...devices will be the death of humanity.

I'm tired of cars that shift gears for me, help me steer, and dim my lights when it thinks they should be dimmed.

I'm tired of computers that try and hide files, wont let me modify system configurations without jumping through hoops, wont let me boot up DOS, or, god forbid, access my Windows folder without a warning that basically says "you're probably an idiot, dont touch this".

I dont want guns that check my finger prints, test my DNA, and ask for a urine sample before enabling the trigger. I dont need a gun with a 15 pound trigger pull and a magazine safety to keep me from shooting myself in the foot. I dont want a rifle to ask me how I'm feeling, and if I'm sure I want to fire before it lets the hammer fall.

Things are supposed to be complicated, it discourages idiots from touching them.


If you're to dumb to take the time to work something properly, then you shouldn't touch it in the first place.

[beevul]

36. You took......

the words right out of my "lunatic asswipe" mouth.

Well said.:toast:

[MrBenchley]

32. I know a steaming pantload when it's being peddled, beev

Koresh knows we see enough of them everyday from the RKBA crowd.

Be sure and tell us again how its the user's fault that Glock manufactures an unsafe product.

[beevul]

35. Be sure and tell us...

"Be sure and tell us again how its the user's fault that Glock manufactures an unsafe product."-MrBenchley

Be sure and tell us again how its Glocks fault that some users are ignorant, and use a perfectly safe product in a reckless, dangerous, and thoughtless manor.

"I know a steaming pantload when it's being peddled, beev"-MrBenchley

Ok, peddle this.

Two cases of a projectile aimed and fired in the wrong direction:

A glock, VS an SUV.


Please explain how pointing a gun in the wrong direction and pulling the trigger is any different than pointing an SUV in the wrong direction and hitting the footfeed.

Please explain how it is the fault of the gun, but not the fault of the SUV.

[MrBenchley]

45. Too TOO funny, beev

Trained police officers are "ignorant, and use a perfectly safe product in a reckless, dangerous, and thoughtless manor."
Gee,, there's no spin too desperate for the RKBA crowd is there? Anything to protect the sacred fetish from blasphemers..

[beevul]

48. When an officer points a gun

at a fellow officers head, and shoots that fellow officer, what would YOU call it?

Thats ignorance, any way you spin it bench. Negligence? Yes. Ignorance? Yes. From "Trained police officers"? Yes.

Any LEO folks care to comment?

Oh yeah, please answer this:

Two cases of a projectile aimed and fired in the wrong direction:

A glock, VS an SUV.


Please explain how pointing a gun in the wrong direction and pulling the trigger is any different than pointing an SUV in the wrong direction and hitting the footfeed.

Please explain how it is the fault of the gun, but not the fault of the SUV.

[MrBenchley]

49. I'd call it the RKBA crowd spinning

and even inventing details to suit themselves.

[Liberal Classic]

29. Thousand rounds per minute - thirty-three per second?

One of the Glock?s most frightening attributes is its ability to easily be converted into a full automatic weapon capable of firing at the rate of 1,000 rounds a minute... A full automatic Glock will fire 33 bullets in seconds with one trigger pull.

Someone needs to check their arithmatic. One thousand rounds divided by sixty seconds equals 16.66 rounds per second. Someone's been watching Morpheus rock and roll on that Escalade one too many times. The Matrix has you!

[alwynsw]

37. A handgun is a tool

I suppose that by your reasoning all manufacturers of all products are liable for injuries or deaths resulting from the end users misuse of the item? I think I'll do a swan dive off the top of my extension ladder, then sue the manufacturer because the ladder enaabled me to reach a height sufficient to cause injury if I jump off.

Boy! Is God, Allah, Buddha, etc. ever gonna have a bunch of lawsuits if any of the churches, synagogues, temples, etc. are teaching something incorrectly.

[slackmaster]

46. That old "easy full-auto conversion" saw again

"One of the Glock’s most frightening attributes is its ability to easily be converted into a full automatic weapon..."

Notice how people who make that kind of claim never provide enough detail to verify it, nor is there ever any mention of a Glock that has been illegally converted actually used in a crime.

I've fired a G18 and examined it closely. There is no way to put G18 fire control parts into a G17 without doing some machine work. The G17's frame has no provision for the selector switch.

But people who WANT to remain ignorant and afraid won't bother to check out the veracity of these claims. They are content to repeat the second- or third-hand information as fact.

:boring:

By the way, wasn't it not long ago the RKBA crowd was on here assuring us it was next to impossible to convert guns to full auto? Sure it was.

No, that is a Straw Man. Nobody here has ever used those or similar words to describe the difficulty of converting a modern semiautomatic fire to full auto. Those of us who have some technical knowledge have described it as "non-trivial" and noted that in ALL cases some precision machine work is required. That is certainly true for a Glock conversion.

[GRClarkesq]

40. "the gun’s safety features..."

— extremely effective in preventing discharges if the gun is dropped or hit — automatically are turned off every time the trigger is depressed."

I think that is so it will go bang.

[alwynsw]

42. So. Tell me exactly how it is

that the firearms industry is responsible for the illegal actions of the men who had possession of their products. Isn't that akin to blaming the electric company if you stick a bare wire into a socket and kill someone with it?

And how is it that the firearms industry is responsible for an idiot cop who pointed a handgun at a fellow officer, the proceeded to shoot him?

This lunatic asswipe wants to know.

[MrBenchley]

51. 32 cents a rifle could fix defect

Instead of recalling defective rifles, the company sends the message "It's careless gun users' fault."

"Remington Arms Co. officials knew of this problem in some rifles as early as 1947, but for decades failed to fix the firing mechanism or warn customers of the danger.
The problem, the company’s own records show, could have been fixed for 32 cents a rifle.
Since the 1970s, more than a hundred people — mainly hunters — have been injured, maimed or killed when their Remington rifles accidentally fired without the trigger being pulled.
Missouri attorney Richard Miller, who estimates he has handled about 100 cases against Remington, said the firearm manufacturer’s own records show it has received more than 1,500 complaints of unintentional discharges involving the 700 rifle."

http://www.detnews.com/2003/specialreport/0312/15/a13-7201.htm

[Superfly]

52. And if their rifles were defective, causing injury,

then the consumer has every legal recourse to sue for damages. The gun lawsuit immunity bill does not deny this.

The gun lawsuit bill provides immunity to the gun manufacturers from lawsuits, frivolous ones that seek to bankrupt the companies through lengthy and pricey lawsuits based on ridiculous claims such as the one filed by Gary, Indiana:

"The Indiana Supreme Court cleared the way Tuesday for the city of Gary to sue gun manufacturers, wholesalers and distributors over allegations that they sold handguns they knew were likely to end up in the hands of criminals.

In a decision that could prove far-reaching, the state high court also ruled that this northwestern Indiana city, the state's fifth largest, can pursue its claim that handguns sold without safety devices such as gun locks are negligently designed."

Link

[MrBenchley]

55. Too frigging funny...

Gary's lawsuit is not frivolous in any way...

[MrBenchley]

53. Firearm manufacturers make no effort to improve safety

"Many firearm manufacturers ignore technology -- including their own -- that would make guns safer and less apt to accidentally discharge. Internal memos, gun patents and employee depositions show that many of these safety features are cheap, easily installed and have been available for nearly 100 years.
In addition, many manufacturers routinely disregard customer complaints and fail to recall guns even after losing or settling lawsuits over faulty firearms. Some gun makers go further, using confidentiality agreements as part of legal settlements to conceal problems with their firearms.
Gun manufacturers have strong allies in the National Rifle Association and the U.S. Congress.
Lawmakers have ensured that no federal agency has the power to set safety standards for firearms manufactured in the United States, and that no agency can demand a recall of defective guns. The NRA, a gun owners lobby group, has used its political clout to fend off all attempts to impose safety standards for guns."

http://www.mansfieldnewsjournal.com/news/stories/20031221/localnews/78797.html

[Superfly]

54. The biggest gun safety feature

is and always has been the operator's brain. Find a way to fix the faulty ones, before you try to impose your measure of responsibility on the rest of us.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

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