Carrying where alcohol is served

[MichaelHarris]

There have been cases where the owners of bars and restaurants have been held liable for serving drinks to a driver who was later involved in a traffic accident. Will the members of the Gungian support holding restaurants liable if they serve someone carrying who later uses his/her weapon inappropriately?

[wtmusic]

1. Not until carrying while drunk is illegal. nt

[friendly_iconoclast]

4. It is, most places- not to mention stupid. nt

[wtmusic]

13. Thanks, did not know. nt

[paulsby]

2. actually, to be more specific

and i am not saying i agree with such legislation, but a bar can be cited for serving a person who appears intoxicated.

if they cause injury to another (whether through a collision or otherwise), that can be a factor in a lawsuit

it isn't the serving of alcohol to a person who is later in an accident that is the factor

it is that the person they served was noticeably intoxicated and was later involved in an accident.

regardless of whether one later drives drunk or use a firearm drunk etc. i believe the same law should apply

assuming one thinks a bar should be liable at all for serving an obviously intoxicated person

[friendly_iconoclast]

3. Only if the bar/restaurant knows someone is carrying, and serves them anyway

It's already illegal to overserve someone, carrying or not. But then again, if someone does something stupid with a gun
after they have been imbibing all the bartender/server/waiter has to say is:
"I didn't know he/she had a gun"... and if they did know and served them anyway, they should say goodbye to their liquor license.

[onehandle]

9. "I didn't know he/she had a car"

The same logic could be applied to an automobile and yet...

[friendly_iconoclast]

15. It *is* applied to automobiles- and bars *do* get sued when their patrons DUI...

...and subsequently crash. Then the plaintiff has to prove they were 'overserved', as the term is used. Sometimes they get their liquor licenses suspended or revoked, as well.

Short of requiring every place that serves liquor to pat down every patron, there's no way to stop those who ignore the
law. And even if you were to do so, drunks are still wont to create mayhem with fists, feet, elbows, glasses, bottles,
pool cues, tables, chairs, et cetera, et cetera...

[Euromutt]

20. It's the main reason there's a shortage of licensed alcohol servers in Washington state, for example

I took a MAST (Mandatory Alcohol Servers' Training) class a few years ago, and got my Class 12 permit, allowing me to tend bar in the state of Washington (I got the license so I could serve drinks at an event held by the wolf conservation group I volunteer with). The instructor told us that the risk of being individually sued (along with your employer) in the event that someone you "overserved" smashed his car into someone made enough people reluctant to actually work as alcohol servers that most bars et al. had a hard time attracting licensed bar staff.

[benEzra]

5. In my state, it is illegal for someone who is carrying to consume alcohol...

so I wouldn't mind a law that said restaurants/bars couldn't serve alcohol to people they knew to be carrying. As long as, of course, those restrictions applied equally to serving CHL holders, armed security, and off-duty LEO's.

I would not support a "gotcha" law trying to create liability without negligence, though.

[Katya Mullethov]

6. Absolutely

Everyone ,should be responsible for everything ,that everyone else does .


Please to continue screwing pooch in foot commrade .

[one-eyed fat man]

7. Carrying and drinking

In my state we can legally carry in restaurants that happen to serve liquor but not in saloons. I very occasionally go with friends or family, most usually in the role of designated driver. I don't much care for booze and they all can have a nice meal and drink until they're knee-walking, commode-hugging drunk. And if I am driving their car I don't much care if they puke their guts out on the way home.

But like most situations in life, we have choices. If I want to go boozing it up, best thing is for me to leave my pistol and my car keys at home. If I am driving or carrying a gun, then I am free to order diet water. It is difficult to regulate stupid behaviors.

That some states hold barkeeps and their help culpable for serving an obviously intoxicated person, you open the question to what is 'obviously intoxicated.' That decision is generally made by '12 good citizens' to the everlasting glee of the lawyers who profit from folks who failed to heed their mother's admonition of "Don't be stupid."

[SteveM]

8. "Dram shop" laws may cover this already. nt

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

10. If the bar KNOWS the person is carrying, I agree they could be held liable, IMNSHO.

If it is proven the bar or employees knew the patron had a firearm on him (while the patron is IN the bar WITH the weapon) then they should be held criminally accountable for abetting the crime of consuming alcohol while armed. This is of course assuming that the state bars ANY drinking of alcohol while armed. Furthermore, if a subsequent situation arises through the drunken misuse of a firearm and the bar knowingly served alcohol to an armed man, then the establishment should be held liable to lawsuit as well. Of course, the lawsuit would have to prove that the drinks consumed meaningfully contributed to the misuse.

Lets compromise...
you let legal CCW in establishments where alcohol is served and we'll concede that bars can be held liable for serving armed people.

And what's with this "members of the gungian" crap?
We are members of DU - anyone on DU is welcome to read and post here.

[slackmaster]

11. No, it's not the bartender's responsibility to frisk every customer for concealed weapons

Silly question.

[one-eyed fat man]

12. Some old time detectives will verify

that in "certain" establishments there are a couple of floozies who'll come up and kinda rub themselves all over you feeling for the gun.

[GreenStormCloud]

22. When I was young, an attractive woman rubbing against me would have found one.

This is my rifle, this is my gun...

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[one-eyed fat man]

25. They tell me

they got pills to fix that problem for geezers like you now.

You can tell you got a really cheap HMO when your Viagra prescription consists of two popsicle sticks and a roll of duct tape.

[X_Digger]

14. Yes and no..

A bartender serving alcohol to someone who is obviously intoxicated is an easy target. S/he should have known better. There's proximate cause to further actions that the intoxicated individual might take.

A sober person effectively carrying concealed presents no indication to a bartender. There's no reason to believe that a server would have any indication one way or another about whether or not an individual is carrying at the time.

There's no 'reasonableness' / 'should have been able to reasonably predict' in this case.

Now for open carrying, or for those concealed carriers who intentionally or unintentionally unconceal, cut them off (assuming there are laws against drinking while carrying, as there are in most states.)

[gorfle]

16. Since it is illegal to drink and carry a firearm in most places...

Since it is illegal to carry a firearm while consuming alcohol in most places, I would say that I would support holding a bar or restaurant liable if they served alcohol to someone they knew was carrying a firearm.

But if you don't know they were armed, then you can't hold them responsible.

Why? Because if you did hold them responsible, you would also have to hold them responsible if a patron got drunk, went home and picked up a knife and stabbed his wife to death. Or got his shotgun out of the closet and shot his wife.

[spin]

17. Here's a map of states that allow carry in restaurants that serve alcohol...

http://www.opencarry.org/restaurant.html

[oneshooter]

18. If the Texas restaurant has a 51% sign, entry is a no-no for CHL. n/t

[Euromutt]

19. New Mexico just went green on that map, actually

Governor Richardson signed a bill to that effect into law two or three days ago.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

21. I support holding the person breaking the law responsible.

[aikoaiko]

23. Liable for merely serving someone alochol? No. And bars are not liable for DUIs for merely serving

Should bars owners be held liable for damages resulting from every law their patrons break?

Obviously not. But under some special cases its possible for a bar owner to be negligent.

[YllwFvr]

24. So im curious

On our firearms forums this is a hot topic as well.

Do you feel that getting drunk is stupid?
or going to the bar at all is stupid?

Is a few beers with friends while not getting intoxicated alright?

Do we consider it to be the same as a vehicle with similair blood alcohol levels making it a bad idea to carry?

Ive carried into a bar, and Ive drank, I see no reason not to. I wont have more than one or two though, depending on how long I stay. Beers, not mixed drinks. I also dont stay passed 8 pm when the drinking starts getting serious. Im not a fan of a room full of drunks.