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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-21-10 06:38 AM
Original message
Vigilantism turns to tragedy, shooting unsettles Utah neighborhood
Edited on Sun Mar-21-10 06:40 AM by depakid
In the Salt Lake City suburb of Bluffdale, two neighbors on the lookout for troublemakers find themselves in a standoff, with guns. Now one is paralyzed and the other is facing trial.

Before the shooting, David Serbeck and Reginald Campos were pillars of their community, living at opposite ends of an unfinished development here at the edge of Salt Lake City's sprawl. Serbeck, a genial 37-year-old father of two and former Army sniper, welcomed new arrivals to the neighborhood by offering to help install their sprinkler systems or work on their yards.

Campos, a 43-year-old CPA and father of four, tried to forge a community in his neighborhood by warning new residents about a spate of mailbox thefts and lobbying authorities to investigate the incidents.

The two men did not meet until one night last July, when Serbeck was patrolling the area in his SUV, looking for whoever was behind the thefts. Campos was in his SUV too, looking for a suspicious car, and nearly collided with Serbeck. Both men were armed. Shots were fired.

Now one man is in a wheelchair, paralyzed from the chest down. The other is scheduled to stand trial in July, charged with attempted murder.

"It's divided people and changed a lot of people's lives," said Trevor Roberts, 40, who lives near Campos but is also friends with Serbeck. "It's just a tragedy for both of them."

...A friend of Peterson's at the Salt Lake County Sheriff's Department had given him surveillance photos of cars that authorities thought could be tied to local criminals. The two hopped into Serbeck's Chevy Tahoe and began to patrol the streets, looking for the cars.

They had to stop abruptly, however, to avoid hitting two teenage girls who suddenly walked out of some brush and into the street. Serbeck testified at a hearing last year that he simply told the girls, "Be safe going home." Minutes later, the pair spotted a light-colored car that seemed to match the photos of suspicious vehicles. They began to follow it.

Serbeck testified that he tried to edge close enough to see the license plate number but that the driver played "cat and mouse" with them -- speeding up, slowing down and weaving through Parry Farms' twisty streets. When the car eventually sped onto one of the main streets of town, Serbeck and Peterson decided not to give chase and returned to their block.

Later that night, Serbeck was tinkering with his motorcycle in his driveway when he saw the light-colored car go by again. He called out to Peterson and they climbed back into Serbeck's car. This time, Serbeck brought his .45 pistol, for which he has a concealed weapons permit.

"It was dark," Serbeck said in court. It was just before midnight. Serbeck drove to phase two -- the newer part of the development, separated from his part by a small hill. A Toyota SUV suddenly pulled up from behind, swerved around him and stopped, cutting him off.

A man jumped out with a gun in his hand, Serbeck testified. It was Campos.

Campos had bought his 9-millimeter pistol more than 20 years ago when he was applying for jobs with the FBI and Internal Revenue Service, a career track he later abandoned. The gun had "been buried since then," said his brother, Conrad Campos.

..late on July 21, Campos got a call from his 16-year-old daughter, Stephanie, according to court records. A strange man in a car was chasing her. Stephanie and a friend had left a party on Serbeck's block earlier that night when they were cut off by an SUV as they walked home. Stephanie was disturbed by the exchange with the driver.

When she reached her house, she took the family's light-sky-blue Chrysler Sebring and drove back to the party to pick up two more friends. The same SUV began following her, and Stephanie only shook the car by heading to one of the main streets.

She called her father, who told her to come home, then join him as he set out looking for the offending vehicle, court records show. "He just wanted to defend himself, his family, his neighborhood," Conrad Campos said of his brother.

When Campos jumped out of his SUV, Serbeck, the former sniper, got out as well. Serbeck's body was partly shielded by the driver's side door, which also concealed the gun he held in his hand.

What happened next is in dispute.

Serbeck testified that Campos angrily asked why he and Peterson were following his daughter. Serbeck replied that he was with neighborhood watch and that he was going to put his own gun down. He testified that he held the gun by the barrel, pointed down, dropped it to the pavement and kicked it away.

"Let's talk," he said, according to his testimony.

Serbeck said he then heard a girl in Campos' SUV screaming: "Don't listen to him! He's lying, he's lying!" "And then, from that point on, he looked at me and said, 'How stupid do you think I am?' " Serbeck testified. "And then I just heard gunshots."

A tape of the 911 call Campos placed described a very different encounter: "He got out of his car, pulled a gun on me and cocked it, and I let him have it." Campos later told investigators that he had emerged from his car with his gun in his back pocket. He drew and fired at least twice, Campos said, when he heard Serbeck rack his own gun in preparation to fire.

One bullet passed through Serbeck's lung and pierced his spine. He was evacuated by helicopter, and sheriff's deputies arrested Campos. He was charged with attempted murder and held in jail for a week until he posted $100,000 bail.

more: http://articles.latimes.com/2010/mar/20/nation/la-na-utah-shooting20-2010mar20
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rfranklin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-21-10 06:45 AM
Response to Original message
1. Well, at least the mailboxes were saved...
What a couple of morons.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-21-10 07:08 AM
Response to Original message
2. Armed vigilantes on the street..
What could possibly go wrong? :shrug:

The only good thing about this incident is that no innocent person got hurt, I feel for the guy that's paralyzed but he was out looking for trouble and found it, as did the one who shot him.

Vigilante Man.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiSg2SUvMFI
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safeinOhio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-21-10 07:28 AM
Response to Original message
3. Rule # 12 to keep safe by safe
You go looking for trouble, it'll find you.

How did a CPA get the drop on a former Army sniper?
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shadowrider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-21-10 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Yup
Just because you have one doesn't mean you should put yourself into situations which raise the probability you'll have to use it. Rule #19 (My rule) - No matter the size of your gun, someone has one that's bigger (and is willing to use it).
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TheCowsCameHome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-21-10 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
5. And this began with random mailbox thefts?
Totally senseless comes to mind.
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shadowrider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-21-10 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. I have to agree
Mailbox vandalism isn't reason for something like this to happen.
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TheCowsCameHome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-21-10 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. But all to often a "nothing" event escalates into a real tragedy
Edited on Sun Mar-21-10 08:35 AM by TheCowsCameHome
How many lives will affected negatively by what has happened here?

*sadly shakes head*

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shadowrider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-21-10 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Unfortunately, you're correct, but not in the way you're thinking
A "nothing" event such as mailbox tampering, although usually a harmless prank by bored teenagers, does (not always) embolden some teens to try something more such as car break-ins etc. with a gradual escalation to more and riskier actions. They do it for the thrill and mailbox vandalism quickly gets boring.

In this specific case though, one of the shooters APPEARS to have been egged on by the teenage daughter who insisted the second shooter was lying.

Do not take that as justification because it certainly isn't. This incident is senseless on the surface and senseless in all aspects.
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TheCowsCameHome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-21-10 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Agreed.
Thanks.
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shadowrider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-21-10 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Hey
I'm a responsible gun owner and CCW cleared. I support gun rights and the right to defend yourself in situations that call for it.

I also am able to look at incidents INDIVIDUALLY and make a decision on right or wrong. This one incident is NOT a blanket condemnation of all gun owners in my view and does NOT paint ALL gun owners as irresponsible.

Two guys made bad decisions and will pay for that for the rest of their lives, as it should be.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-21-10 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. "...as it should be" ???
No- it shouldn't be like this at all.

Campos' attorney, Greg Skordas, contends that the real guilty party is Utah's gun culture. Many residents own firearms and believe in their right to use them for protection.

"Both men jumped out and both had guns, which I suppose was the worst thing," Skordas said. "If you and I jumped out of our cars (without guns), we shove each other, maybe walk away embarrassed. But they had to make a decision."


This is another of those all too common situations where having easy access to guns ruined two "good guy's lives- and profoundly affected many others.

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shadowrider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-21-10 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. And I can point you to several threads where easy access to guns SAVED peoples lives
I am making a statement regarding ONE incident. You're making a blanket statement indicting ALL gun owners (At least in Utah).

I'm able to separate individual incidents. If they were right, they're right. If they're wrong, they're wrong. Just because guns were used in one incident, and it was wrong, does not mean ALL incidents are wrong.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-21-10 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. If you keep a gun around, overall you raise the risk that you or family or household member will be
Edited on Sun Mar-21-10 10:18 AM by depakid
involved in a tragedy or perpetrate a crime.

Moreover- unlike other weapons, guns have a high degree of lethality, a long range and can and do kill many people very quickly even if they're a considerable diistance away.

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shadowrider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-21-10 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. The incidents where this does happen In homes with LEGAL owners
Edited on Sun Mar-21-10 10:22 AM by shadowrider
Is statistically irrelevant. From the time I was a baby, there was a gun in the house. I suppose, according to your statement, I'm an anomaly in that I never even thought of using one in a crime.
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eqfan592 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-21-10 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Care to provide evidence?
And before you post any links to studies, you might want to make sure it isn't one of the several studies on this issue that have been throughly debunked both here and by many others in the academic arena.

Also, a gun shot is actually less inherently lethal than a stab wound to the same area, as most knives are capable of creating larger wound channels than most bullets. And a firearms range is the top reason why they make for far superior self defense implements than any other object available.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-21-10 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Posted the peer reviewed material many many times- and watched bemused
Edited on Sun Mar-21-10 10:41 AM by depakid
as you and other behave like global warming deniers do.

Just as you are right now with your silly rationalization about knives!
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shadowrider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-21-10 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Any evidence we give, given your anti-gun attitude
Would be denied by you. I see no reason to waste valuable time proving something to someone who will refuse to believe it.
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eqfan592 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-21-10 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. LOL! WE'RE the ones acting like global warming deniers!?!
Edited on Sun Mar-21-10 10:47 AM by eqfan592
Let's see here, you have one group who regularly posts statistical and peer reviewed material to back up their positions on a subject, and another group who is never capable of debunking the evidence posted, and when their evidence is throughly and logically debunked, ignores it and continues marching on with a sort of religious fanaticism.

Sorry depakid, but the only person acting like a GW denier is yourself. Anyone unwilling to critically review the evidence they are using to support their position is not somebody willing to think rationally of the subject at hand, and folks on your side of the argument fit that bill perfectly.

EDIT: And please, don't try to continue this any further. This is about as far as I'm willing to take this pissing contest that you've initiated. Until you're willing to provide some evidence that isn't swiss cheese like in it's nature, we really have nothing more to discuss.
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shadowrider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-21-10 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. .
:fistbump:
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-21-10 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. I take that back- you're actually worse than global warming deniers
Edited on Sun Mar-21-10 10:56 AM by depakid
Not only do you fail repeatedly (and often in hilarious ways), but your paranoid lobbyists have for years one their best to try make it difficult to even get the best data!

Because no doubt, you know exactly what it will say.

and btw: tick tock 'til the next mass shooting and cop killing. Should be one coming along any time now (in addition to the triple and quadruple shootings I just posted. They're so commonplace in the states, the barely even make local news in the states these days).
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shadowrider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-21-10 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. Ok here ya go
tick tock 'til the next mass shooting and cop killing. Should be one coming along any time now (in addition to the triple and quadruple shootings I just posted. They're so commonplace in the states, the barely even make local news in the states these days).

Would you be willing to bet your paycheck for the next year that the "next mass shooting and cop killing" is done by gang-bangers carrying illegal weapons, or law abiding CCW holders who just go crazy?

Which is it, and will you bet your paycheck!?
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eqfan592 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-21-10 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. What part of "don't continue the pissing contest" did you not understand?
You want to delude yourself into thinking that all those who oppose you on your mini-crusade are as delusional as GW deniers, be my guest.

And btw: tick tock 'til the next person in this nation successfully defends themselves or somebody else with a firearm from a criminal. And we won't even have to wait nearly as long as you will, because those happen FAR more frequently.
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-10 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #22
33. "tick tock 'til the next mass shooting..." Waiting with bated breath?
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-10 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #22
34. "Tick tock"? "Any time now"? I am in awe of your powers of prediction
If you accept that by "in awe" I mean "unimpressed." Aside from the fact that you're starting to sound like sharesunited by throwing out one of your small collection of sound bites in the illusion that it's somehow a trump card in the discussion, making predictions is easy when you don't specify a time or date by which the prediction must have come true. To quote professor James Lett, "for any claim to be true, it must be falsifiable" (http://www.csicop.org/si/show/field_guide_to_critical_thinking/). "Tick tock" and "any time now" are not specific terms; how much time would have to go by without a mass shooting and a fatal felonious shooting of a law enforcement officer for you to acknowledge that your prediction had not come true? A week? A month? To my mind, phrases like "tick tock" and "any time now" suggest within a few hours, a day at the very most, but by avoiding specific measures of time (e.g. "within the next 24 hours") you give yourself an out in the event your prediction fails to come true. With vague phrases like "any time now" you can just keep extending your deadline indefinitely until the events finally do happen, at which point, you will claim "I told you so," conveniently overlooking the fact that it took a calendar to measure the elapsed time (hint: calendars don't go "tick tock") and that the "now" when you made your prediction is well in the past.

There's no skill to being right when you refuse to set a criterium by which you can be wrong.
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shadowrider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-21-10 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Evidence isn't required
They think it's the truth, therefore, it is.

And you're correct. Close in, a knife is better. I prefer, however, not to get too close to someone intent on doing me harm. 15-20 feet and my .40 caliber, 165 grain hollowpoint will make them take notice in case I have to use it.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-21-10 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. Says the guy who claims "Australia isn't safe" because "they have no guns"
:rofl:
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shadowrider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-21-10 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. I never said "Australia isn't safe"
I said law-abiding citizens have no way to effectively protect themselves from bad guys.

Please don't put words in my mouth.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-21-10 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. Aussies don't walk around all ascared o' "bad guys" -and the gun laws are one of the reasons why
Edited on Sun Mar-21-10 11:26 AM by depakid
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eqfan592 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-21-10 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Naa, you just walk around all ascared o' your neighbors.
Which is why you want to disarm them. ;)
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-10 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #27
40. I guess things like 'bikie wars' and 'the Cronulla riots' were media inventions.
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Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-10 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #14
31. I'm a little skeptical of your suggestion.
Having guns around increases the chances that I will perpetrate a crime?

Sorry, don't buy it.

Back it up, if you can.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-10 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #14
39. No, you don't.
There is no scientific evidence for a causative link between owning a gun and either accident or crime.
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-10 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #11
32. If it's a "too common" incident, then you have data, right? Please cite. nt
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hex29a Donating Member (83 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-21-10 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
12. The guy with the CW permit is the one who got shot.
...
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-21-10 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
29. Ban neighborhoods.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-21-10 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
30. These appears to be discrepancies in what happened...

but it sounds like the zealous neighborhood watch guys and overprotective father clashed.

There's not enough information to say that the shooting was justified.

Given that, the law is working well. Its investigating the shooter.

The thing about carrying a firearm is that it is a big responsibility. And when one fooks up, you get the pay the price.
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-10 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
35. Ban SUVs!!!
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burrfoot Donating Member (801 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-10 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. Ban Children! It's the only way to keep them safe!!!!
This world we live in has not been sufficiently de-danger-ized, so PLEASE, for the sake of the children, DON'T HAVE ANY MORE CHILDREN!!!!!!!



ok, just for the record: :sarcasm:

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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-10 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Damn, how did I miss that? Of course you are 100% correct!!!
:sarcasm:
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shedevil69taz Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-10 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
38. someone is lying
Which party is not being forthcomming with what really happend? Hard to say, I definitly wouldn't want to be on that jury.
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SsevenN Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
41. A gun doesn't
Edited on Tue Mar-23-10 11:52 AM by SsevenN
make you a Cop. It's a lesson that 99.9% of gun owners understand.

But not a lesson 100% understand and that sucks. :(
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