Holy cow. No gun used yet the guy was beaten to death (BAN FISTS)

[shadowrider]

--snip--

According to police, three men tailed Lopez as he pulled his cart past a playground one Sunday afternoon in February 2009.

Two of the men demanded Lopez's money. When he refused, one punched him in the head, then emptied his pockets.

Bleeding on the brain caused the vendor's condition to later deteriorate, the report said. His family says he never fully recovered.

About a month after the attack, police arrested Michael McCatty, his brother Kevin McCatty and Joshua Williams in the case. Charges against Williams were dropped and, in January, the McCatty brothers pleaded guilty to robbery. Each received a sentence of 2¼ years.

If the autopsy leads to homicide charges against the men who robbed Lopez, "that's good," his widow said. "Maybe they will keep these two men in prison a lot longer."

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/crime/beaten-vendors-widow-grateful-for-aid-in-shipping-424891.html

THIS is why I carry. You never, ever know when the threat to your life will come.

[no limit]

1. Right, because a gun would have saved you in that situation

no, you would still have been dead and now the bad guys would have a new gun to play with, in addition to your wallet.

You people aren't Jack Bauer, stop pretending to be.

[shadowrider]

5. You miss the point completely

There was no gun used. He died because of fists PROVING that if someone is going to do harm, they will use whatever means is at their disposal. Not having a gun is no guarantee someone won't use other means to kill.

[no limit]

8. No, I dont miss the point. You said you carry a gun exactly because of something like this

as if you think a gun would have saved you in this situation. You are the one living in denial, and people like you that think you are some kind of super human beings because you are packing heat scare the shit out of me. And this is coming from someone that owns a gun.

[Katya Mullethov]

10. Yeah you did

You know what they call tennis shoes in the South African ghetto ?


"Rubber bullets "

[no limit]

11. what a intellectual reply. Thank you

[SteveM]

21. If he's "packing heat" concealed, how would you know to be so scared?

We hear a lot in this forum about the "paranoia" of gun owners, yet you seem "scared...shit" of people who are carrying concealed. How can this be, unless you go around in a state of perpetual paranoia?

[Richard D]

15. Personally

I'd much rather defend myself against someone attacking me with fists than someone attacking me with a gun.

[shadowrider]

17. I agree

But unless you're a karate pro (or some other martial art), 3 or 4 guys with fists are gonna take you down. They don't want to stop at that either. They begin kicking, punching or smashing your head with whatever heavy object may be nearby.

Granted, you may not be able to shoot them all, but I remember a line from a western where a large group of men approached the jail with the intent on hanging the supposed bad guy.

The sheriff stood out front with his six-shooter. One guy in the crowd said, "Sheriff, you can't shoot us all". The sheriff replied (as he pointed his gun at the guy who made the statement), "No, but I can take six of you with me, and you'll be the first". They all shut up and sauntered off.

Point is, bad guys don't want to die, they just want an easy target.

[Glassunion]

33. Gotta love modern firearms...

Instead of six, I could take 23 with me... Or 11 of them twice, and the first loudmouth 3 times...

Oozing with :sarcasm: lots and lots of it.

[shadowrider]

36. I have 10 + 1 in my PT140

and a second full magazine in the holster. Gives me 21 (provided I have to use it and provided I have time to reload.)

[Glassunion]

37. Nice...

10+1 in my Glock26, but spare mag has 12. I can conceal the pistol better with the smaller mag.

[SteveM]

23. Me, too...

And if 3 were attacking a soon-to-be 62 yr.-old guy, I would rather use a gun against them.

[shadowrider]

24. This soon to be 57 year old agrees

I ain't young anymore. 3 guys with fists would make mincemeat out of me.

[Glassunion]

29. I stick by my original opinion of older people.

You gotta watch out for the older ones. If they can't kick your ass, they'll just kill you.

[shadowrider]

32. I stick by my original opinion of older people.

I am NOT old. I'm chronologically challenged. :toast:

[Glassunion]

35. Either way...

I don't mess around.

I once saw a 55+ yo guy, punch the driver-side window out of a car, pull the piece of shit that was sitting in the drivers seat out through the window, knock the shit out of him furiously for about 10 seconds, then toss him head first back into the car right through the broken window he pulled him out of.

You don't mess around with a dude like that. He was not a big guy either.

[no limit]

41. You miss the point. You wouldnt have time to get your gun.

Like I said, you guys need to stop pretending you are playing a lead role in an action movie.

[shadowrider]

43. Well, an easy way to test that

Is to attack someone who's carrying. A less than desirable result for you means you lose.

Wanna bet?

[no limit]

44. Keep thinking you're invincible with that gun, you're not

3 guys surround you it only takes one punch to get your ass to the ground. A punch can be thrown much faster than you can draw a gun (especially since most people dont keep a round in the chamber). And you can test this without shooting anyone. Find 3 guys and ask them to beat the shit out of you, see if they'll give you enough time for drawing a gun.

[shadowrider]

50. Once again, you fail to understand

Sit here. I'll try.

I've never, ever said you're AUTOMATICALLY protected because you carry. If someone sneaks up behind me and hits me with a crowbar, of course I won't have time. If I see them coming directly at me, that's a different story.

Situational awareness allows you to see a possible threat before it develops. If it does, you're prepared. If it doesn't, go on about your business.

True story
My daughter and her husband went out to eat at a restaurant in Mid-town Atlanta. They left their weapons in the car. On the way out and while walking through the parking lot, they noticed a guy, in a hoodie, following them. When they got to the car, each had their weapon in the door panel. They opened the door, got their weapons and didn't flash them, but rather held them behind them. The guy in the hoodie immediately said, "I was just walking through the parking lot". My son-in-law said, "keep on walking". The guy left.

Now, had they NOT seen this guy, it may have turned out differently. They DID see him. IF the guy was only walking through, he'd have paid them no attention. But he WAS watching them. He knew they were holding, and immediately denied he was up to no good. He went off in search of someone else.

[no limit]

52. So you pull out guns at random people walking toward you

like I said, people like you scare the shit out of me.

[shadowrider]

53. I didn't say that

I said situational awareness leads me to spot possible trouble before it happens, allowing me the chance to defend myself if I have to.

Simply pulling and brandishing at anyone will get me shot by citizens and/or cops.

[no limit]

54. I'm not sure what you mean

You said because some guy with a hoodie was walking behind your daughter and her husband in a parking lot that gave them a right to bust out a gun even if they didn't show it.

And in context of the OP you seem to think it's ok to pull out your gun if 3 people are walking toward you on the street. That's absolutely insane and that continues to be my point. By the time you know you are in danger it is too late to grab your gun in terms of what the OP described. Does that means that a gun is never effective for defense, of course not. But in this case it wouldn't have done you any good, would only have made it worse (not that it could be much worse when you're dead either way).

[cowman]

56. I don't understand

you. When would you think you are in danger, when they started to beat the shit out of you, if I sense danger, my hand WILL be on my gun ready to pull and defend myself and if you think that's wrong, well that's YOUR PROBLEM NOT MINE and quite frankly I really don't give a damn what you think of us carrying for self defense. I refuse to be an easy target

[no limit]

57. If they start beating the shit out of you its too late to get your gun

So unless you pull out guns at any random stranger that gets near you your gun isn't effective in protecting your from such an attack. Again, why is this so hard to understand?

[cowman]

58. AND THAT'S WHY YOU HAVE

SITUATIONAL AWARENESS. If I see three guys coming up on me and I get a bad feeling, I am going to be prepared and I guarantee that they wont get close enough to hit me, now you may not believe me, but that's ok because I know what I am capable of and I am very aware of what's around me at all times, in my line of work I have to be

[no limit]

63. So you pull out guns any time you see 3 people walking toward you?

[cowman]

64. Now your just being stupid

I said if I see three people coming towards me and I SENSE TROUBLE, which I'm pretty good at, I will be prepared and I never said I would pull my gun out I said I would have my hand on it ready to pull and I damn well guarantee they wouldn't get close enough to hit me. Most people know a bad situation when they see it

[mvccd1000]

82. "Now?"

I haven't seen any of his replies that have made much sense yet.

You've clearly explained your stance, it's been backed up with real-world examples, and he's still trying to twist them around in same way to suit his beliefs.

I prefer to carry openly. I'd rather the person looking for someone to rob get a look at me and keep on looking elsewhere.

[GreenStormCloud]

67. No. I put my hand on the gun when I see three suspicious people coming at me.

I don't draw the gun, I just put my hand on it. From that point I can draw and fire in 1/2 second. Street criminals get pretty good at reading the signs that a potential victim is armed. If they see that the target sees them and them puts his hand in pocket, or under his shirt, they know that they may be facing a gun. They will almost always leave and go for a safer target.

If I don't have time to draw I can shoot from inside my pocket. My primary carry gun is a revolver (S&W 642)so that I will have that ability.

As soon as they made the demand for money, it would be legal to begin shooting.

[rrneck]

77. Yep.

A much needed dose of common sense.

[Hoopla Phil]

72. Only after the "give us your money" part. It's not that hard, really.

[Hoopla Phil]

71. The gun would have been drawn at "give us your money." Plenty of time for that.

[shadowrider]

61. I think I understand now

I'm supposed to wait until they attack me with fists, knives or guns, or all three, before I can defend myself.

By then it's too late.

SITUATIONAL AWARENESS.

[Hoopla Phil]

70. Only when people try to mug me, like what happened here. When confronted with

"give my your money" by three men I don't talk about it I draw my pistol. There was PLENTY of time for that to happen.

[X_Digger]

73. You may not like to be in a criminal's head..

.. but those of us that choose to not be a victim do spend considerable thought there.

A criminal doesn't typically randomly assault a victim. They go to a location where victims will be. They select places where criminals can approach victims without setting off suspicion. They select a victim in a set of circumstances likely to favor the criminal (hands full with packages, dark area of the parking lot unlikely to be seen by bystanders, a part of a parking lot with few occupied cars..) They select victims likely to have the things they want (dressed well, pushing a cart of expensive goods which means cash or credit cards) and the inability to resist. They select victims unaware of their surroundings.

A criminal will often case a victim to ascertain any or all of the above criteria (nice car? check. Parked away from other prying eyes? check. Talking on a cell phone? check. Frail / older / less physically able to resist? check. Two hands full of shopping bags? check.)

They will often approach a victim with an innocuous question or statement ("Do you have the time?", "Could I bum a cigarette|match|quarter for the meter?", "My car is exactly like yours, I swear I thought it was mine.", "Are you a local? I'm trying to get to..") meant to allay suspicions as to why a random stranger would be approaching you.

Now, recognizing the tactics that criminals use to get within striking distance of you without arousing suspicion, there are things you can do to avoid becoming a victim. Park in a well-lit, busy section of a parking lot. Keep your head up, and look around. If you see someone approaching you, make eye contact. If they continue to approach, change direction. If they change direction too, move faster toward the entrance of the store. Keep at least one hand free.

If something just doesn't feel right (and if you've spoken to many victims of robberies / assaults, you'll know this is often the case) speak up, loudly- "That's close enough. Can I help you?"

Many of these things will break the cycle of becoming a victim. Sometimes just eye contact (aka, "I see you, I will remember you") is enough to make the criminal select another victim.

Pulling a gun should be the last resort. In the case shadowrider related above, neither his daughter or her husband pulled their guns, but they let the potential criminal know that they were aware of him, and were prepared to respond if violence were offered.

Good criminals act like everyday joe's right up to the point where they threaten you. Knowing that, and choosing to not be a victim, they made the right choice. Nobody hurt, no foul.

[GreenStormCloud]

74. Actually, I perfer to park in an empty area of a parking lot.

My thoery is that there are no close vehicles that the felon can hide behind. By my car being away from other cars, it becomes clear that I am being stalked; the bad guy can't pretend to be going to a car close to mine. It also enables me to challenge an approaching stranger at a greater distance than in a crowded part of the lot.

Definately, criminals have a script with a role for them to play, and a role for the victim to play. If the targeted victim doesn't act according to the script it thows the criminal off track. Most will then abort the attack and look for someone else.

[shadowrider]

75. And they were fully prepared to fire if necessary

I'd hope that bad guy had to change his skivvies when he got home, knowing how close he came.

[GreenStormCloud]

66. Please be advised that most people who carry auto--loaders DO ...

carry with a round in the chamber. Or if they use a revolver of modern design they have all chambers loaded. I carry, and so does my wife, and we carry with the chamber loaded. If we need the gun, we may not be able to use both hand to work the slide. The other hand may be busy, or even injured.

[PavePusher]

48. Prove your assertion. n/t

[no limit]

55. What is there to prove? It took one punch to the face to kill the guy

how long does it take you to pull out a gun and in the case of most people chamber a round?

[cowman]

59. I carry

a Star Firestar .45 cal w/a round chambered when I do carry concealed which is pretty much all the time, now you may think that's unsafe but I assure you it's not, I keep the gun at half cocked and can cock it while pulling it and I'm pretty fast

[PavePusher]

60. Well, I happen to open carry...

so anyone foolish enough to approach me and demand my money would see me with my hand on the grip of my 1911, which is carried "cocked and locked". Drawing and thumbing the safety takes 1.5 seconds or less.

Any group of people following me and approaching closely would have me in alert mode. Rude demands would definately put me in a defensive posture.

I don't know where you get the idea that "most people don't carry a round chambered". If you have some proof of that, please present it. Even if true, draw and chamber takes well under 3 seconds. Likely under 2 with a little practice.

I do not blame the victim here for his own death, but it seems very possible that he was not reacting correctly to the situation.

Remember, you can play "what if..." all day long, but citizens have a long and overwhelmingly excellent record of defending themselves with firearms.

It's all about choice. Freedom and liberty, ya'know....

[shadowrider]

62. Mine is chambered

Safety on. Impossible to go off without pulling the trigger. I don't want to waste 2 seconds chambering if my life depends on it.

[Hoopla Phil]

69. The criminals asked for the money first, the guy refused, THEN he was punched. There was PLENTY of

time to draw a weapon.

[no limit]

42. You gun wouldn't offer you any additional defense. You wouldnt have time to pull it

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

49. Depends on all the variables. I can draw and accurately fire in ~2sec

I compete in IPSC - an international league for pistol shooting. From "go" to "bang" I can put shots on target in <2sec.
I'm pretty average as far as competitors go, regionally. I do it for the fun and practice.
A thug needs time to approach, demand wallet/cash, and physically confront or assault the victim.
Keep in mind, a "fast" person only sprints about 10yds in 2 seconds.

You're view of reality concerning firearms and the common behaviour of criminals is luckluster.
If you think firearms are inadequete protection... then don't carry one.

With situational awareness and any kind of weapon retention intruction, an armed victim stands a VERY good chance against an unarmed attacker.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

7. I don't think 3 guys with fists would attack someone with a gun.

According to the story, the three goons were up front about the intention of robbing him.
I think if a victim were armed, and made that fact known, nothing would have happened at all.

Gun control is regressive, stop pretending it's legitimate.

[no limit]

9. Why would nothing have happened? Before the gun could have been drawn you would be on the ground

and the bad guys would not only have your wallet but now they would have a gun too.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

16. If you had poor situational awareness... maybe.

The article says "they followed him".
He should have been More alert - even not being armed being alert can avoid situations like this.

A gun is not a guarantee that you will overcome a threat. It certainly helps even the odds when used.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

22. Hypocrisy much?

Evidently, you believe "You people aren't Jack Bauer" however you state with certainty that unarmed people will be disarming armed victims and then using the victims' gun against them... So which is it, are "you people" on par with Jack Bauer or not? Or are only criminals and thieves born with Hollywood fighting skillz? Without the use of ninja hollywood skillz, conspicuously attacking an armed person and taking their gun away might be harder than you believe.

[no limit]

45. The keyword is people, there were 3 of them.

and it only took one punch in the right spot to kill the guy.

So no, it's not hypocrisy, it's common fucking sense. And people like you that think your gun would save you in that situation need to get back to the real world.

[Hoopla Phil]

68. No matter how much you want that to be true it is not. The first action was

from the BGs that asked for money. The victim, rather than pulling a gun said no. THEN he was hit. There was plenty of time to draw a weapon without it being taken away. Why do you think that happens so often? Do you have ANY stats on the subject? Some have been posted on this thread if you care to look. The reality is things do not happen in these kinds of situations as you think they do.

[oneshooter]

76. This is ISPC shooting, pure defence and a great sport.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cay7UTL8nPk


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb6y7ZlNyLQ&feature=related



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud7ML1bPi6g&feature=related


Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[Hoopla Phil]

80. I got up to shooting B class limited when my interest started to fall off.

haven't been to a match in 15 years or so now. Looks like the paper targets have changed.

On edit: 3 gun has started to catch my eye though. I'm liking the idea of incorporating the three different rifles. I've got a 300 Whisper on order and understand it can be loaded safely to major power factor, he he he.

[SteveM]

20. A gun would give a potential "victim" a better chance...

You're no Jack Kennedy, so stop pretending to be.

[Hoopla Phil]

25. Damn right my legally carried .45 would have stopped those thugs.

If you believe otherwise I feel sad for you.

[no limit]

46. 1 punch is all it took to kill the person, there were 3 attackers. You gun wouldnt have done shit

if anything it would have guranteed to get you shot in addition to beat.

[Hoopla Phil]

65. You have the supposition that he'd punch before I acted. Not so.

[PavePusher]

47. Please provide evidence to prove your snide assertion.

Else, you merely spew vanity to the winds.

[mike_c]

2. because you live your life in fear....

As you say, "You never, ever know when the threat to your life will come."

The difference between you and I, I think, is that I don't live my life fearing it. And when you live it that way, it suddenly appears a whole lot LESS threatening.

[shadowrider]

6. I don't live my life in fear

and for you to suggest I do, without knowing me, is, well, unfounded. I carry on my life as I have for years doing daily things without a second thought. I'm aware as I can be of my surroundings, and it's advisable for everyone to do the same.

The difference is, IF a threat appears, I want the chance (there are no guarantees) to even the odds. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Hoopla Phil]

27. Do you put your seatbelt on? Have a smoke detector? Keep a fire extinguisher

in your home? Have fire insurance? Just because you are prepared for possibilities does not make you afraid. It makes you a realist.

[SteveM]

28. You don't know me. Do you know yourself?...

"You never, ever know when the threat to your life will come."

Do you seek to deny the truth of that statement?

To admit to that truth is not to "live in fear" or some such silliness.

Mike, we all have fears. Don't you? Please refrain from using a natural emotion as a bludgeon against people whom you do not know.

BTW, I sleep well at night with a .357 beside my bed; just as well, in fact, as when I was younger and did not keep a weapon nearby.

[TwilightGardener]

3. For the vast majority of people, the threat to one's life will come in the form

of a clot, or a tumor, or some other disease process. Or, by not wearing a seat belt, or by their own hand in despair, or by drinking their livers to death. Most people aren't murdered, or even robbed, as with this victim. You really do have to assess life's risks accurately.

[shadowrider]

12. I fully agree with your statement to a point

Most aren't murdered, robbed, beaten, raped, carjacked or just blown away because someone feels like it.

On the off chance that it happens to me, however, I want the chance (THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES) to even the odds, nothing more, nothing less.

[PavePusher]

51. Crimes occur several million times a year.

With my current age and health, I am much more likely to be a victim of crime than of a heart attack. I don't drink much. I always wear my seat-belt. And suicide is not an option for me, by choice. Death is going to have to drag me, kicking, screaming obcenities and clawing at the ground. And he's gonna limp the next day...

So I carry a firearm, a general-purpose folding knife and various other tools and skills to give me a variety of options in a variety of situations. I intend to die old, surly, and in bed with a super-model.

[johnroshan]

4. well..

You're not serious, are you? What would've happened if one of the guys had snatched your gun and shot you, there were three guys. Death would've come a little earlier.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

13. How many times do cops (or citizens) have their guns snatched from them.

That likelihood is so remote the chances of it happening are negligible.
Statistically, it's not worth factoring into a decision if you practice good awareness.

On the other hand, a much more likely scenario is the use of a gun to defend oneself without ever having to fire a shot.
By merely having a gun, most criminals want nothing to do with you. There easier targets out there.

[shadowrider]

14. Three guys without a gun would have run

They want to continue with lifes essentials such as breathing and seeing and stuff.

That doesn't mean they wouldn't have rounded the corner and found another victim, this time an easy one.

[SteveM]

31. Well, indeed...

The OP is serious, and so are the rest of us. Some gun-controllers seem to think 2A defenders have blanket protection by keeping and bearing arms, and use that straw man to attack self-defense with a gun. A firearm merely improves your chances of survival, it is not a guarantee. Spend any amount of time in this forum and you will see a far more reasonable argument made about guns and self-defense from those who keep and bear than from the concocted straw used by the controllers.

[X_Digger]

34. Know how many officers were killed with their own weapons in 2008?

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/2008/feloniouslykilled.html

four

And those are officers who carry openly and are forced to get into physical confrontations with violent offenders during the process of arrest quite often.

four

[GreenStormCloud]

40. What makes you think that the criminals are super-ninjas?

Snatching a gun away from a person who knows the correct way to hold it for close-in combat is next to impossible. Screw up the snatch, even on a TV style hold, and you get shot. I am amazed at how many people want to think the citizen must always be helpless in the face of violent crime.

[PavePusher]

79. Actually, watching for news reports...

it seems more common for the would-be victim to disarm the felon than the other way around.

Of course, if you have statistically significant evidence to the contrary, please feel free to provide it....

[My Good Babushka]

18. Or you could end up in jail

after you shot them, and they were determined to be unarmed, and you used some excessive force. Because sometimes you can't win. Not even if you carry your gun everywhere.

[shadowrider]

19. So if they're uarmed I have to let them proceed?

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

26. Wrong. 3 vs 1 with open declared intent to rob the victim.

There is no "excessive force". There is justified and unjustified. Different locales define what is justification of deadly force.
Just because the bad guy brings a bat or a knife doesn't mean you can't use a 12ga shotgun.
If lethal force is justified, and you did not escalate/iniate the situation, it doesn't matter if you use a Taser or a Desert Eagle.

In a courtroom, it would be vrey easy to justify a 3 versus 1 situation as a life threatening situation.

[Hoopla Phil]

30. Incorrect on the legal matter.

Three thugs on one have the very real potential to cause serious bodily injury (as did happen in this case) which means the use of deadly force to repel them is within legally defined "reason".

[friendly_iconoclast]

78. You are not in any way, shape or form familiar with Florida and Florida law, are you?

Dear God, another self-proclaimed 'expert' on why self-defense with a gun is bad. They're all pretty much the same:

1)They don't like guns,

2)They're not *really* trained in self-defense,

3)They're not informed about the legal
aspects of self-defense, and

4) They're all full of different crack-brained theories about why having a handgun upon you is either useless or illegal, to wit:

You'll never get a chance to use it.

The super-stealth muggers will cosh you and take it from you.

The super-ninja mugger(s) will take it from your hand if you do manage to unholster it.

You'll miss the mugger(s) and hit some innocent bystander if you do fire it.

If you do somehow manage miraculously to avoid getting ambushed, unholster your gun, avoid having it taken from
you, manage to not shoot a bystander and actually *hit* the aspiring felon, you will be arrested.


Try my patience with your prattle enough, you have. Begone.

[Dappleganger]

81. Not in Florida, hon.

If someone came at me with fists I don't have to retreat even on the corner and can do whatever is necessary to protect myself if I'm in fear for my life.

[GreenStormCloud]

38. A gun PLUS situational awareness would have saved him.

And likely no shot would have been fired. By being aware of the danger he could have his hand on the gun and be ready. As soon as one demands the money he can draw the gun. If he uses a proper hold on the gun (NOT like on TV) the gun cannot be taken from him. Violent felon will then be aware that any further agressive act will result in the felon and buddies getting shot and he will likely turn and run.

[shadowrider]

39. If he uses a proper hold on the gun (NOT like on TV)

I watch how they hold them. One misfire causing the magazine to come flyin out of the gun and the shooter has a serious broken hand, not to mention he/she is basically holding the gun with one hand (easier to take away).