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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 03:37 AM
Original message
Oregon judge fails to grasp own point
Edited on Tue Mar-30-10 04:25 AM by Euromutt
From The Oregonian (http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/03/portland_judge_says_he_hopes_s.html):

Portland judge says he hopes sentence in gang shooting is a lesson to young African American men

A Multnomah County circuit judge expressed exasperation at yet another killing of an African American man by an African American man -- this time during a 2008 funeral at a North Portland church.

Feeling disrespected is not enough of a reason to kill someone, said Judge Kenneth Walker, who also is African American. "I hope this is a lesson to you and all the young brothers who are going to hear about this," Walker said.

Walker then sentenced Latwan Brown on Monday to 20 years in prison for the killing of Darshawn Cross on Dec. 12, 2008, during a funeral inside the New Hope Missionary Baptist Church.

<...>

Portland police said the shooting sent gang tensions to a boiling point -- spurring almost one shooting per a day for the next several weeks. On Dec. 31, two 18-year-old men, Willy Butler and Darius Perry, were killed at a Gresham apartment complex.

Butler was the brother of Brown, the Dec. 12 shooter at the funeral.

Deputy District Attorney Patrick Callahan, who prosecuted Brown, said things cooled down in early January, after police located Brown in California and arrested him.

<...>

Walker, the judge, used Monday's hearing to re-emphasize the senselessness of shootings.

"One of the hardest things I've ever had to do is send young African American men to prison," said Walker, who grew up in Compton, Calif.

"It has to stop," Walker said. "I wish we could take every gun in the world on a boat out to the ocean and dump them."
<...>
"I know a lot of people say we're post-racial because of Barack Obama," Walker said. However, the judge said the struggles of the black community are still evident, noting that unemployment among black men is close to 20 percent. Shootings, such as the one Brown was responsible for, just make matters worse, he said.

(Italics mine)

Oh, so very close, but no cigar, Your Honor! You've got severe unemployment among blacks, resulting major gang activity, and a sub-culture among the members of those gangs that holds that the appropriate response to being "disrespected" to murder the offending party. How can you acknowledge all that, and still think that you can make all that go away just by dumping guns into the ocean?

ETA: Besides, if it's the gun's fault, why put the defendant away for 20 years?
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 03:58 AM
Response to Original message
1. Any kid with a high school education
and access to any high school metal shop, can make all the guns he or she wants.

'Dump all you want' someone will make more.
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Well, yeah; as usual, the problem is demand
The London Metropolitan police have a special task force, Trident, to investigate specifically gun crimes with black perps and/or victims. The problem they have there is that the criminal sub-culture within the black community has been heavily influenced by Jamaican "Yardies," who are noted for being especially violent. It's open to question to which extent American and Jamaican "thug culture" have influenced each other; when Jamaican "Posses" started becoming active in the drug trade on the North American mainland in the mid-1970s to early 1980s, they were noted for extraordinarily willing (even for organized criminals) to use extreme violence. Let me put it this way: Jamaican homicide rates 1970-2005 are displayed in figure 1.7 on page 10 of this document http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/Caribbean-study-en.pdf ; U.S. homicide rates for the same period (and more) are here http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/hmrt.cfm#longterm
As you can see, since the mid-1970s, Jamaican murder rates have been at least double those of the U.S. which indicates to my mind that the tendency towards extreme brutality is a Jamaican import (though to quote the quip about Americans and pizza, they may not have invented it, but they sure took to it in a big way).

The upshot being that the UK, like the U.S., has a category of criminal who has been brutalized by the gang sub-culture to the point that he has no compunction about killing someone for something as minor as supposedly "showing disrespect." And this happens in the UK, as well, to the extent that Yardies are a particular concern for several British police forces. But the Yardies aren't getting their guns by diverting them from the legal market, because there isn't one; not for handguns, pump or semi-auto long guns, or automatic weapons, anyway. And yet, the Yardies manage to acquire these guns, because they want to. And because the demand exists, some fucker will always provide a supply.
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The_Commonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 07:09 AM
Response to Original message
3. "I wish we could take every gun in the world on a boat out to the ocean and dump them."
I have to agree with that.
Every goddamn one of them...
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DonP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #3
4.  If the gang members are holding them when you dump them you have my support! ntxt.
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OneTenthofOnePercent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. I wish we could take every gang member in the world on a boat out to the ocean and dump them.
Edited on Tue Mar-30-10 08:44 AM by OneTenthofOnePercent
Every goddamn one of them.

Tell me, what action do you think would have a greater positive impact on crime... dumping gang members or guns?
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. When you return from Oz...
you will realize that you are part of the problem: there is nothing that gets the juices flowing more in a thug than seeing someone who willingly submits to him.

Prohibition: a seductive siren who steals your pants before you awaken in the morning.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. And then you would have to take every knife in the world on a boat ...
and dump them.

and every hammer....

and every ice pick ...

and every chainsaw ...



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lepus Donating Member (312 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. and at some point you will likely end up with spoons as a prohibited item. NT
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Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-10 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #3
16. Guns put food on the table of many poor families around here.
Would you deny them a source of cheap meat?

Sure, you can do the same thing with bows, and snares, but those are dangerous to people too, should they also be dumped into the ocean?

Please consider the consequences of your positions.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
8. Then the fishes will have all the guns.
You think we got Piracy problem now. You haven't seen anything until you start arming all the sealife.

Plus as any anti knows:
The second amendment only applies to fish in a militia.
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cowman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Fish Wars
The Tuna Strike Back, starring Charlie the Tuna
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
10. The judge is right- if you could get rid of the gun proliferation, you'd lower the homicide rate
in cases like this.

No two ways about it.

Not that it matters to the proliferation crowd- as far as they're concerned all these deaths are just fine, so long as they can irresponsibly spread their guns around the community.
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cowman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Awwwwwwww
whats the matter? 2nd amend. supporters got you down?

Here's a radical idea, why don't you temd to your own country while we tend to ours

BTW, you have got some great soldiers, met a few in Vietnam, very disciplined soldiers
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-10 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. It's pretty much like any other public health problem-
there are always those who create conditions that "spread disease."

In your case, the much of the disease is preventable, both through health and safety type regulations as well as education of potentially afflicted individuals.

Oz is smart enough to know that- just as law enforcement and the military is.
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Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-10 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. Hiding behind the state?
Really?

Strangers in buildings protected by guns in far away places always know what is best for individuals everywhere in an arbitrarily determined, demarcated, landmass, right?
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-10 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. It's a health problem in the same way dissent was a health problem in the Soviet Union
This was in the Seventies when the gulags had fallen out of fashion.

The dissenters were declared to be "mentally ill" and bundled off to various Bedlams. And the authorities would also proclaim the necessity of doing so.



I'd wondered where I seen your mindset before...
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-10 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. This proves the need to allow Swiss assault rifles to be owned without permit in the US
Edited on Wed Mar-31-10 02:03 PM by friendly_iconoclast
as they are extremely resistant to the Criminal Gun Use Virus.
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-10 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. But would it have made a difference in this particular case?
You don't think that maybe an attitude that the appropriate response to being shown "disrespect" is to kill the offending party played a more fundamental role that the availability of firearms? See, this sort of thing also occurs in the UK (albeit with less frequency), despite the lack of handguns, and pump-action and semi-automatic long guns, that might be diverted from the legal market.

One thing the U.S. and UK do have in common is an influx of Jamaican drug gangs from the late 1970s/early 1980s onwards. The "Yardies" (in the UK) and "posses" (in the US and Canada) were noted at the time for being extraordinarily willing (even for organized criminals) to use extreme violence with minimal provocation. These mores appear to have caught on with black organizxed criminals of non-Jamaican descent. I'll admit I'm speculating here, but perhaps some of the discrepancy of scale between the U.S. and the UK in this regard can be explained by the fact that, as of 2000, 12.3% of the U.S. population was black, compared to 2% of the British population in 2001.

By contrast, according to the 2006 census, the Australian population contained around 9,000 people who were either born in, or claiming ancestry from, the Caribbean, of whom just 2,500 were of Jamaican background. Out of a population of 21 million or so, we're talking a few hundredths of a percent. One of the effects of not having a past of slavery or being the colonial power, I suppose, though perhaps the "White Australia" policy had a thing or two to do with it as well (since established immigrant populations tend to pave the way for more immigrants).

Historical evidence indicates that you can't just "get rid of the gun proliferation." Even in countries with stringent laws on private ownership like the UK or the Netherlands, organized crime can get hold of all the guns they want, with enough left over to sell (or rent) to any petty criminal who can stump up the cash. Their main suppliers are organized criminals in the Balkans and the former Soviet Union, where organized crime frequently has direct ties to elements of the government, such as the Russian FSB). Even in mainland China (where a private citizen can legally own a .177-cal air rifle at most, and that requires a permit), criminal gangs acquire firearms directly from the corrupt employees of the various arms manufacturing firms. The proliferation of firearms among the criminal element is driven by demand, not supply (I don't know how often I've pointed this out by now), and as long as there is a demand for weapons with which to kill competitors and people who "disrespect" you, some fucker will cater to that demand.

The long and short of what I'm getting at is that the homicide rate is determined to a far greater extent by having a cultural attitude among certain segments of the population that inclines one toward resorting to homicide as a response to both "business disputes" and affronts to one's personal honor, and that prevalence of firearms is secondary to that. It's notable that the homicide rates in mediaeval Europe were far higher than even American ones today, despite the relative (and prior to 1350, complete) lack of firearms. It's even more notable that European homicide rates started dropping from the 17th century onwards, well before the adoption of gun control laws, but following in the wake of the Enlightenment, which--among things--planted the seed of the idea that tolerating an insult was less of a stain on one's honor than willingly cutting short a human being's life.

Those of us who were born and raised into societies (or parts of societies) which take it as read that an offense to one's honor is insufficient reason to murder someone can be at a distinct disadvantage in trying to understand why a murder takes place. In her book Nine Parts Of Desire: The Hidden World Of Islamic Women, journalist Geraldine Brooks (an Australian, as it happens) describes a court case in the UK of a Sudanese man who had stabbed his (also Sudanese) wife to death.
At issue in the court was whether the act was premeditated murder or, as the defense claimed, manslaughter that took place when the accused was temporarily out of his mind as the result of "reaction depression" brought on by the knowledge that his wife had had an affair, and that she had, on the morning of the stabbing, obtained a court order restraining him from taking their children out of Britain to live with his family in the Sudan.

As I listened to the facts of the case, I could interpret them in two ways. The Western way, as the jury was interpreting them, led to a description of something we all understood: a crime of passion in a spur-of-the-moment insane frenzy. The other way, the way I'd learned living among the women of Islam, described something very different: a cleansing of family honor, a premeditated killing that would, under British law, draw a sentence of life imprisonment.

From where they sat in their jury box, the men and women of the jury couldn't see Omar as he stood each morning beside his police guard, waiting to be escorted into the court. But from the elevation of the public gallery I could see him, and so could his brothers. Each morning he looked up at them and raised a clenched fist in a defiant victory salute.

But as I've pointed out before, what Brooks describes as "the Western way" of understanding a homicide is based on a myth. Spousal killings do not occur in a "spur-of-the-moment insane frenzy"; they are just as deliberate and premeditated as Omar's, with the only distinction being that the Western spouse-killer is spurred not by a need to protect/restore the honor of his family or clan, but his own.

In a very real sense, the killing of persons who supposedly show "disrespect" is also an "honor killing." And restricting the means to commit those killings will have little to no effect as long as the cultural imperative exists to commit the killings. What Judge Walker failed to acknowledge was that the use of firearms follows from the desire to kill, not the other way round.
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shadowrider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-10 06:59 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. I beg to differ
Edited on Wed Mar-31-10 07:00 AM by shadowrider
Get rid of guns, the bad guys would turn to something else. The homicide rate would remain the same among the thugs. You see, it isn't the gun, but the person using it.

Bad guys have been doing bad stuff since humans first stood up on two legs and threw rocks at each other.
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Taitertots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-10 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. The Mexico model?
Sounds like a great place to emulate.

I'm not willing to pretend we can legislate away the underlying causes of crime. The "Proliferation crowd":eyes: care about the deaths and want actions that will actually decrease crime.
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-10 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
21. I think there's a lot of things Judge walker fails to grasp...
for example... a gang-banging piece of shit without a gun, is still a gang-banging piece of shit.
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