Unexpected Flight Delay -> Hotel Stay -> Criminal Prosecution for Gun Possession

[X_Digger]

http://volokh.com/2010/03/30/unexpected-flight-delay-hotel-stay-criminal-prosecution-for-gun-possession/

An unfortunate story, detailed in Revell v. Port Authority (3d Cir. 2010): Gregg C. Revell was flying from Salt Lake City to Allentown, Pennsylvania, via Minneapolis and Newark. He had an unloaded gun legally checked in his luggage, which was supposed to meet him at Allentown.

Supposed to. In fact, the flight to Newark was late, so Revell missed his connection. He booked himself on the next flight, but the airline changed those plans. He was supposed to get on a bus, but his luggage didn’t get on the bus with him. He found the luggage, but the bus had left, so he had to stay overnight at the hotel, with his luggage.

Aha! That’s where the crime came in. The Firearms Owners’ Protection Act protected Revell on the plane, and would have protected him on the bus. But the moment the luggage came into his hands or otherwise became “readily accessible” to him outside a car — here, when he got the luggage to go to the hotel, but it would have also happened if he had gotten the luggage to put it into the trunk of a rental car — he violated New Jersey law, which requires a permit to possess a handgun (and which bans the hollow-point ammunition that Revell also had in a separate locked container in his luggage). Revell was arrested when he checked in with the luggage at Newark Airport, and said (as he was supposed to) that he had an unloaded gun in a locked case in his luggage; he then spent four days in jail until he was released on bail. Eventually the New Jersey prosecutor dropped the charges against him, but Revell didn’t get the gun and his other property back until almost three years later.

Interesting conundrum.. Lots of good discussion in the comments, too.

[hedgehog]

1. I think we've been down this road before - check out the Fugitive Slave Act.

Do State's Rights trump Federal law only when it's convenient?

[virginia mountainman]

2. That is unreal....NT

[HERVEPA]

3. And he needed hollow point ammunition for what reason?

[X_Digger]

4. Hollow point ammunition is safer.

It has less chance of going straight through a target and into an innocent bystander. That's why police officers use it.

[GreenStormCloud]

5. HP ammo is superior for self-defense.

If you are in a self-defense situation, you need to maximize the bodily trauma to the other person to get them to stop what they are doing. HP does that.

[virginia mountainman]

7. Hollow Point bullets, are the ONLY responsible choice...

Full Metal Jacket bullets (the legal in NJ kind), will go through your target, undamaged, and still have lots of energy, and the WILL continue on downrange, to kill and main Innocent people...

A hollow point, will expand when it hits, and "put the vast majority" if not ALL, of it's energy into it's intended target, leaving those down range much safer..

FMJ's will slice and dice car panels, walls, and people, just the same...A hollow point, for the most part, once it its something looses much of it's "punch"

The idiots, who wrote that law, put their complete IGNORANCE on display with it..

Yes, a hollow point can inflict terrible damage on a person's body, but it likely will only hurt that person....not endanger everyone else in the community as it exits the person shot with it, just about as fast as it went into them...

But hey! New Jersey must WANT bullets cutting completely through houses, cars, and people alike...If not they never would have wrote such a law.

[AtheistCrusader]

8. Why not?

What property of hollowpoint ammunition led you to ask this question?

[benEzra]

9. Same reason I, your local police, and everyone else who uses/owns defensive handguns uses them.

More effective at stopping a violent attacker, less chance of overpenetration, less chance of ricochet. The only reason not to use JHP would be for a handgun that (1) was incapable of reliably feeding JHP, (2) for low-cost target shooting, since FMJ is cheaper, or (3) for a handgun that is strictly a "range toy".

[HALO141]

11. Immaterial.

Makes no difference whatsoever.

[PavePusher]

12. Same ammo police use.

So why should Citizens have different requirements?

What is the problem?

[spin]

34. Some well intended advise ...

Obviously you need to study firearms and ammo more before you post in the Gungeon.

Don't get your info only from the Brady Campaign for starters, double check everything they say.

The Brady Campaign has faced criticism over its alleged use of inaccurate information and selective use of statistics. Critics point to its labeling of semi-automatic or self-loading rifles as "assault weapons," in order to conflate them in the public imagination with assault rifles. Traditionally, an assault weapon is one used for breaching obstacles such as the Bangalore Torpedo, SMAW, SRAW, APOBS, and Flamethrower). Also, the Brady Campaign refers to hollow-point handgun ammunition as "cop-killers", despite the fact that hollow-point ammunition expends the greater portion of its kinetic energy on impact, reducing penetration power compared to conventional jacketed rounds or solid slugs, and is incapable of penetrating ballistic vests.<16> Additionally, the Campaign has in the past called for a ban of non-existent "plastic guns".<17><18>emphasis added
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brady_Campaign

It's actually simple to find unbiased info on firearms and ammo on the net.

Hollow point bullets are bullets that have a small pit in their tips. This design allows the bullet to expand upon impact with a target, because pressure is generated inside the pit, essentially pulling the bullet apart. The use of hollow point bullets is controversial in some communities, and there are a variety of arguments for and against this bullet design.

A typical hollow point bullet is at least partially jacketed with a hard metal which will prevent the barrel of the gun from becoming fouled with lead. The jacket also helps maintain accuracy, with the hollow point further improving accuracy by shifting the center of gravity to the rear of the bullet. When a hollow point bullet hits a target, the bullet expands, and the jacket falls away.

The primary advantage of a hollow point bullet is that it has increased stopping power. When a hollow point bullet hits a target and expands, it causes significantly more damage than a conventional bullet, thereby bringing the target to a halt more quickly. In addition, overpenetration, a common problem with some bullets, is avoided, because the bullet slows radically when it expands.

People have been aware of the advantages of the hollow point design for a very long time, and for almost as long, people have debated the ethics of using hollow point bullets. Especially in countries which struggle with gun control laws, hollow points are sometimes a topic of controversy as people attempt to balance the desires of gun rights advocates with a genuine concern for safety.

From the point of view of law enforcement, hollow points are sometimes viewed as safer, because the risk of overpenetration and ricochet is reduced. When police are trying to handle a crowded situation, it can be helpful to know that if a police officer shoots hollow points, bystanders are less likely to be harmed than they would if normal bullets were used. In addition, hollow point bullets neutralize a suspect more quickly, which can be critical in an emergency. emphasis added

Some hunters also use hollow points, to avoid the overpenetration and ricochet problem, and to ensure that they can kill big game animals humanely with one shot. These bullets are also used by some militaries.

Military use of hollow point bullets is actually banned under the Hague Convention of 1899, which prohibits the use of expanding bullets. Some individual communities have also banned the sale and use of hollow points, sometimes known as dum dums, arguing that individual civilians have no use for such bullets, and that the increased stopping power makes the bullets a liability in the hands of law enforcement officers.
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-hollow-point-bullets.htm

Obviously, there are both pro and con points to hollow point bullets.

One reason the military doesn't like expanding ammo is that it kills rather than injures and the object is not to kill but to injure. Rather than merely stopping just one individual, you involve several members of the opponents army to transport and care for the injured soldier. Over penetration is not considered a major problem as if you injure another enemy soldier behind the original target, so much the better.

A civilian does worry about overpenetration as the bullet might pass through an attacker and injure or kill an innocent individual.

If you have questions and are too lazy or lack time to do some basic research, ask for info and references here in the Gungeon. Many posters will be willing to explain the subject and provide references for you to link to. Those who have firearm knowledge and support RKBA are used to explaining the subject to newbies and those who oppose firearms.

[tburnsten]

36. I've got a minor issue with the second piece

Namely that they refer to hollow point ammunition and "normal" bullets, as if hollow points are not absolutely ordinary and run of the mill.

That and the military's "hollow point" loaded cartridges are not actually hollow points at all, but open-tipped match bullets, which jacket bullets from the base to the tip, leaving an extremely small and non-performance enhancing cavity at the very tip of the bullet, instead of leaving the base of the bullet unjacketed or rolled over. It's an accuracy-enhancing method to manufacture the bullets, that's all. they still use the same mechanisms to enhance wounding as other military FMJ, namely fragmenting.

[PavePusher]

37. Over a week and no reply to the answers?

Hit and run, much?

[paulsby]

6. i've been reading the discussion at volokh.com

it's great

this doesn't surprise me AT ALL with new jersey. they are #@Q$(#$( RIDICULOUS.

at least the prosecutor EVENTUALLY dropped the charges.

this is the perfect example of mindless prosecution and strict liability crap.

[Mike K]

10. "Ridiculous" is putting it mildly.

In addition to the highest taxes in the U.S. and the increasingly oppressive traffic density, New Jersey's gun laws are as restrictive as it gets. If it were not for proximity to my kids I would move West. I was frankly amazed when the NJ Legislature recently approved medical marijuana.

[tburnsten]

28. Isn't there a massive problem with deer wandering into traffic?

Causing accidents, killing people, right and left, just because NJ makes it almost impossible for anyone to buy a rifle and get into hunting?

If they haven't already they will have to either declare an open, six month season every other year or hire lots of professional hunters to clean house. I know which method would be cripplingly expensive, and which method would result in Fish and Game revenue increases, as well as plenty of other benefits to the people of NJ, and I have a bad feeling about which way the NJ legislature would go about fixing it.

[depakid]

13. Solution: institute uniform laws like New Jersey's nationwide.

Sooner or later, that's what will happen anyway.

[X_Digger]

14. Riiiiiiiiiight...

Clue: This guy was ineligible for an NJ permit, being a non-resident. So even if his _own_ state had similar laws, it wouldn't have helped him in New Jersey.

The stupidity, it burns.

[depakid]

15. Make the permit system nationwide- problem solved

[X_Digger]

16. Nice try, post Heller & McDonald ;) n/t

[depakid]

19. Just tellin' you all how to solve a problem

Though to solve a problem- any problem, one first has to be honest and admit there's one.

[pipoman]

21. Sounds like the donkey in your little sig pic

better be turning in that knife, lest he be charged criminally soon...:eyes:

[depakid]

25. Actually, it does

and if you'd listened to the donkey- you'd universal have health care at half the cost, an economy that hadn't gone down the tubes- a media that didn't propagate a culture of lies so dense that many citizens can't agree on basic, objective facts- and no need for the world's largest and most expensive prison system.

Instead, you aspire to third world status- and are fast on the move toward achieving just that goal.

[friendly_iconoclast]

26. I notice that Australia has yet to withdraw from the ANZUS treaty.

Seems like your crowd actually want want a certain "aspiring third world country" around to encourage certain of your neighbors play nice.

You know, the US could save a *lot* of money by eliminating installations in the Indo-Pacific area. We could use the
$ towards health care. Maybe you could help by working for the renunciation of AU-US defense agreements?

Let us know how the repeal campaign goes. Just make sure to reassure your fellow Aussies that they have nothing to worry
about from Indonesia or China, and the concomitant increase in defense spending would only be temporary...

[friendly_iconoclast]

27. Got chauvinism?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauvinism

Chauvinism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Chauvinism, (pronounced /ˈʃoʊvɨnɪzəm/), in its original and primary meaning, is an exaggerated, bellicose patriotism and a blind belief in national superiority and glory. By extension it has come to include an extreme and unreasoning partisanship on behalf of any group to which one belongs, especially when the partisanship includes malice and hatred towards a rival group.

[Glassunion]

22. I will gladly admit there is a problem.

New Jersey gun laws do indeed stink. How do we fix them?

[cowman]

24. Yeah like

you aussies are so perfect that you now tell us how to run our country

[oneshooter]

17. Meanwhile in OZ!

Victoria's one-month knife amnesty begins today

A MAN intercepted by Victoria Police last month at a railway station during a random weapon search was found with a fishing knife.
He also produced a fish.
This is typical of the complication of the state's controlled weapon laws - carrying a legal knife, if justified, does not equal an offence.
Similarly, hairdressers armed with scissors or chefs carting cases of knives to work are allowed to carry their tools.
But a one-month amnesty urging Victorians to hand in their weapons without question or charge will begin today. It is being billed as the last chance to hand in any weapons before tough laws come into effect mid-2010.
Under the new powers, police will be able to issue $1000 on-the-spot fines for first-time weapons offences and designate public areas such as a railway station for a random weapon search without notice.
Victoria Police data shows youths carrying knives rose by 45 per cent in 2008-09 compared to the previous year. From four targeted weapon search operations at metropolitan railway stations in Footscray, Sunshine, North Melbourne and Flinders Street, police detected 26 weapons after searching 864 people.

All are safe now in the nanny state.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/victorias-one-month-knife-amnesty-begins-today/story-fn3dxity-1225848463641


Murdered teen Michelle Morrissey stabbed 'dozens and dozens' of times

MURDERED Mudgee teenager Michelle Morrissey was allegedly stabbed "dozens and dozens" of times by a stranger in her home as she prepared to go to a party.
Police told The Daily Telegraph that they had no indication the popular 19-year-old knew her alleged killer Luke John Cotterill, 18.

With no effective means to protect herself.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/murdered-teen-michelle-morrissey-stabbed-dozens-and-dozens-of-times/story-e6frf7jo-1225848332425

Mum, kids terrorised in road rage attack
POLICE have charged a Noranda man after he allegedly pursued a woman and her two children for 3km in a road rage attack on Saturday night.
The 44-year-old man, who has been charged with reckless driving, allegedly forced the victim to stop three times by pulling his car in front of hers.
The woman was driving with her 10 and 12-year-old sons in the car.

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/mum-kids-terrorised-in-road-rage-attack/story-e6frg13u-1225848099864

No effective way to defend herself.

And finally!!!

Jealous dad films kids saying goobye to mum before killing them

A JEALOUS father who filmed a "farewell video" of his two young children before strangling them with internet cables has been jailed for life for their murders.
The Sun reported Petros Williams, 37, of Manchester, northern England, was given a minimum prison term of 28 years for killing his son Theo, two, and daughter Yolanda, four, in a "spiteful reaction" to the breakdown of his marriage.
In a "symbolic" act of cruelty he throttled the youngsters with internet cables

http://www.news.com.au/world/jealous-dad-films-kids-saying-goobye-to-mum-before-killing-them/story-e6frfkyi-1225848242522


Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[GreenStormCloud]

29. For once, we agree.

The Thune amendment almost passed last year. It was two votes short of the 60 needed to stop a filibuster. It should pass soon.

I would love to have a national shall-issue permit good anywhere, similar to the requirement for obtaining a Texas permit.

[Euromutt]

20. Another one of your brilliant predictions?

Same degree of specificity, I see: "sooner or later." So what are the criteria by which your prediction will be proven wrong?

[Pavulon]

23. Hey you supporting the new internet restrictions in OZ

they are still making news. You may want to redirect attention to that, or you may not be able to get here an post uninformed comments any more. ACCESS DENIED MATE!

[Hoopla Phil]

18. Wasn't there already a test case like this in New York? Cannot remember the name but the guy

was arrested when he went back to the airport (after the unscheduled layover in NY city) and checked his bags. He eventually won and IIRC got several million courtesy of NY City.

[votingupstart]

30. i'll be interested to see where this goes n/t

[Xenotime]

31. He should have just stayed in the airport terminal.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

32. Well, he's got to get his bag off the luggage belt to check for the new flight, no?

[benEzra]

33. You're correct, that doesn't help.

He'd have to refuse to take possession of the suitcase, while keeping an eye on it to make sure it doesn't get stolen, and insist that the airline retain possession of it. Of course, the airline would probably refuse. If he reported it to the police, they would have probably confiscated them and may have arrested him anyway.

In any case, once he was in possession of the suitcase, the only safe thing to do would have been to rent a car, lock the unopened suitcase in the trunk per FOPA, flee across the border to the United States, and book a flight from there where he won't risk prison for checking in at the airport. Transporting the suitcase from the baggage claim to the car would have still been technically illegal, but once it was locked in the trunk and he was on his way, he'd arguably have a good claim to Federal preemption since he was en route between jurisdictions where the firearm(s) were legal.

[PavePusher]

35. Or, we could actually stop impeding a Civil Right.

Your call...