Parking lot killing came after $10 dispute-Suspect's father posts $1 Million dollar bail

[RamboLiberal]

-----

Prosecutors contend that Warmus objected to being charged $20 to park at the East Ninth Street lot, in which signs advertise the cost at $10. The price hike, due to the space's location near the entrance and its sometimes being reserved for the handicapped, sparked the dispute.

-----

Miday said at one point, Williams placed Warmus in a headlock and urged the man's girlfriend ''to calm your boy down.''

Once released from Williams' grip, Miday said, Warmus, his face noticeably reddened, walked with his girlfriend, a 22-year-old UA student from Chardon, to their four-door Honda.

-----

Moments later, Warmus was armed with a black Glock 27 pistol and ordered Williams to the ground. Witnesses say Williams was reaching for his gun as he was being confronted by Warmus.

''And the next thing the witnesses heard were shots,'' Miday said.

With his .40-caliber pistol in hand and streams of Cavaliers fans walking past, Warmus fired the three shots, including a lethal shot to the head near the left ear, Miday said.

http://www.ohio.com/news/91849559.html

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- A 25-year-old Uniontown man charged with aggravated murder in a downtown shooting walked out of the Cuyahoga County Jail on Thursday after his father posted a $1 million bond with a cashier's check.

Matthew Warmus had pleaded not guilty to the charge earlier that day and a judge reduced his bond -- which had been set at $2 million. Warmus' father, Summit County builder John Warmus, stunned court workers when came in with a check.

"That's the first time I've ever seen that much money posted as bond in the 25 years I've been here," said one worker at the Clerk of Courts office.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/04/suspect_in_parking_lot_killing.html

One of the lawyers representing Green resident Matthew K. Warmus says his client acted in self-defense in the shooting death of a parking lot attendant Friday night in Cleveland.

Warmus, 25, a senior graphic design major at the University of Akron, is being held at the Justice Center in Cleveland on a charge of aggravated murder.

He is accused of shooting David J. Williams, 27, of Maple Heights, at an East Ninth Street parking lot in a dispute parking in a spot reserved for handicapped drivers. Williams leaves behind a son, 4.

“We have thus far an understanding that the gentleman, Williams, had a gun on him and he pulled a gun and actually intended to shoot Warmus, at which time and only at which time, Warmus attempted to defend himself and did so only given that being his only choice in the matter,” said attorney Edward R. La Rue of Cleveland.

http://www.norwalkreflector.com/articles/2010/04/14/front/doc4bc5dfa65b84d292045620.txt


Matthew Warmus appears for his arraignment in Cleveland Municipal Court, Tuesday. Warmus is charged in the shooting death of parking lot attendant David Williams . His attorney Edward La Rue stands at left. (Marvin Fong / The Plain Dealer)

I posted this because it is an interesting and tragic story.

Both of these guys had license to carry. The parking lot attendant had his gun in his waistband but no round chambered. The shooter went to his trunk to get his gun (probably because he was coming from a Cavalier game where he probably couldn't carry).

If you are going to carry or have a gun near then you have to be able to control you emotions and not bring out your gun as the final arbiter.

Stupid to argue & then kill someone in a dispute over a measly $10.

Sounds like the shooter comes from money(Warmus is the son of John Warmus, president of Warmus Builders, a prominent construction company in southern Summit County). I don't know that there should have been bond in this case. I hope this doesn't enable him to skip the country.

Sounds to me like an execution because while the parking attendent may have been ripping him off for $10, Warmus couldn't control his temper.

[RamboLiberal]

1. State numbers show majority of concealed-carry permit holders comply with gun laws

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- People licensed to carry a concealed weapon usually pull their guns only at the firing range, police say.

Matthew Warmus was charged in connection with a fatal parking lot shooting. Statewide, county sheriff's agencies issued more than 56,691 concealed-carry permits last year. Less than 2 percent of those license holders had their rights revoked for committing a crime.

"We're normally not worried about people who own guns legally and come to us for a permit; it's the people who have guns illegally," said Lt. Donald Michalosky, who oversees the department at the Cuyahoga County Sheriff's Office that deals with carrying concealed weapons.

But a parking-lot shooting in downtown Cleveland this month in which a permit holder shot and killed another permit holder has caused some to wonder if people licensed to carry concealed weapons should be under greater scrutiny by authorities.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/04/state_numbers_show_majority_of.html

[PDJane]

3. Warmus looks like a spoiled rich kid..........

and he doesn't look as though he expects to be convicted.

[The Doctor.]

6. Won't he be surprised.

No way can this punk walk away from this.

[RamboLiberal]

9. I don't know - he will be able to afford high price lawyer

I would bet. Be an insteresting case to follow. Since both had guns they could well play out some kind of self-defense scenario as they already are.

[RamboLiberal]

2. The victim - David Williams

MAPLE HEIGHTS, Ohio -- Two men, roughly the same age, went downtown for a Cavs game Friday night -- one to work, one to watch.

Both David Williams and Matthew Warmus appear to have brought guns with them. Williams, 27, was killed in the parking lot where he worked, across East 9th Street near The Q, and police said Warmus, 25, shot him after the men argued over a parking spot.

Both men's families grappled with grief and fallout from the shooting Saturday. Williams' family is making funeral preparations. Warmus' family learned their son spent the night at City Jail on suspicion of aggravated murder.

Williams was the 2001 Homecoming King at Maple Heights High School. He spent some time in the Ohio National Guard, relatives said, before working as a parking lot attendant. Williams' family said he was licensed to carry a gun and carried one when he worked. That gun was not fired, police said.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/04/shooting_victim_life_was_full.html

[sharesunited]

4. He was a law abiding gun owner. Until he wasn't.

[cowman]

7. So you've already convicted

him before a trial, how very democratic of you, at least I keep an open mind and listen to the evidence before I make up my mind but judging from your past posts, all gun owners are guilty even if the shoot is a rightous shoot and the shooter is found not guilty or never even charged.

[sharesunited]

14. An execution shot makes self defense a difficult argument to make in this case.

But you are correct about my bias. And I come by it honestly. Most of what passes for righteous shooting is in response to the presence of a gun as the source of trouble.

[cowman]

16. It makes it

difficult but once again, innocent until proven guilty.

Also, you shoot until the threat is neutralized, not saying that is what happened, but at least wait for the evidence before convicting him.

[Froward69]

29. the victims firearm

was still in his waistband... no imminent threat to the shooter... execution head shot... GUILTY

[cowman]

34. Were you there?

Maybe he was reaching for it. Look, I'm not defending the shooter, but before you convict, at least wait for the trial and the evidence to come out, if he is found guilty, I say give him the maximum allowable sentence.

[RamboLiberal]

11. I knew you'd be down here arguing this

Know where I found the story? In Glocktalk under carry issues where people who do lawfully carry were disgusted with the shooter.

If we followed your argument we'd quit granting driver licenses as well - after all the driver who recklessly mowed down a pedestrian or a bicyclist was doing so lawfully since they had a valid license.

[sharesunited]

18. Reckless driving does not compare.

Voluntary assumption of risk on the part of anyone on the street.

What risk does the recipient of a bullet voluntarily assume?

I'm glad that the Glocktalk posters are disgusted. But they still love their Glocks, and that is wrong.

[RamboLiberal]

19. Only you say it is wrong to have guns

Seems you've been overruled on the ability of those of us who want to own and carry.

There was a time when there were silly laws about autos as well by those who fear them.

In case you missed it lawfully owned vehicles kill a helluva lot more people in this country than lawfully owned guns.

[sharesunited]

22. Assumption of the risk, Rambo. Shooting victims are wholly unwilling participants.

And as demonstrated by this story, guns cloud judgment. Having them available makes for poor choices.

[RamboLiberal]

25. As are pedestrians, bicyclists and other vehicle drivers

When mown down by reckless drivers with a valid driver's license. I'd call them unwilling participants.

If you do one damn stupid thing publicly with your gun you're most likely to lose your carry license. You can do multiple stupid things with your vehicle most likely before most states will yank your driver's license.

[sharesunited]

27. They are willing participants who perceive their risk to be low when they assume it.

Getting shot requires no such calculation. True victims.

[RamboLiberal]

33. True victims are those who die suddenly in an accident

or a crime. I see no damn difference. Hell most of us don't wake up calculating what our chances are to die this day by any means. I've read of people being mown down by a reckless driver while in their yard gardening. The biggest risk they probably thought they had doing that was getting stung by a bee.

[cowman]

26. Are you going to answer my ? or not

How do you propose to stop smugglers from bringing guns across the border and will you outlaw the possession of lathes and drill presses? All you would have done is leave the law abiding citizens to the tender mercies of the thugs, Nice going there Shares

[sharesunited]

31. Who needs to smuggle? There is ample supply for years and years even if the spigot is turned off.

In fact, USA guns are pouring over into northern Mexico and arming their gang wars.

[RamboLiberal]

36. You're buying in to that canard

Much of that story is a false flag.

[cowman]

38. That is pure unaduterated bullshit

The drug gangs are'nt getting their fully automatic weapons or RPG's from the USA, their getting them from the corrupt Mexican Army or the countries south of Mexico, At least try to be honest and you will get more respect

[sharesunited]

41. Calderon says 90 percent are from the USA.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE62R13320100328?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews

[RamboLiberal]

43. I have no faith in what Calderon says

he can't even gain control his country. And even if the Mexican drug lords get guns here - if that dried up the guns wouldn't dry up. There a lot of countries they can import illegal guns from. Their drug connections would serve them well.

Why don't you argue that U.S. drug users are supplying drug lords with the money to buy the guns and tear apart their country?

No demand for illegal drugs would be no money to buy guns and no drug war.

If the drug war is such a damn success what makes you think that outlawing guns would be such an equal success and would make gun murders a thing of the past?

Yep, prohibition has been proven to be such a huge success.

[sharesunited]

44. Calderon seems more believable to me than Wayne LaPierre.

As to your other point, drugs are a voluntary vice.

Guns impose will involuntarily.

[RamboLiberal]

47. Drugs are what fuels the drug wars in Mexico

And a good part of the killing in the U.S.

Your argument that guns impose will involuntarily is beyond stupidity. For a gun to kill a human has to aim and voluntarily pull a trigger at least in the case of adults using guns for the majority of gun killings.

In this case I posted the shooter if he had lacked a gun could've just as easily if he was in a red rage of anger jumped in his car and mowed down the parking lot attendant.

I've read of autos being used as murder weapons as well.

Some who cannot control their rage have found ways to kill since the beginning of mankind long before gun powder was invented.

[sharesunited]

55. Designed and intended to kill conveniently and efficiently

and to be carried wherever killing is desired to be done.

No, not a car.

[friendly_iconoclast]

An argument from authority *and* a proclaimed faith in animism?

All in just three sentences.
At least it was concise...

[SteveM]

68. So, do you support the war on drugs as well? nt

[RamboLiberal]

45. Never saw my local U.S. Gun Shop stocking these

Coverage of Mexico’s drug war has become mixed up with a debate in the United States over gun control. But as the Associated Press reported yesterday, traffickers are now tooling up with more military-grade weaponry. "Stockpiles captured by Mexican soldiers show that warring traffickers are now obtaining military-grade weaponry such as grenades, launchers, machine guns, mortars and anti-tank rockets," the report said.

More worryingly, some gangs have obtained military-grade explosives — the basic ingredients for building the kind of improvised explosive devices that have proven so lethal in Iraq and Afghanistan. The cartels, however, have not necessarily mastered bomb-making skills: As Stratfor noted last year, a roadside bomb that was supposedly meant for a Mexican police official detonated prematurely, killing the bombmaker and injuring an accomplice.



Read More http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/04/mexican-narco-t/#ixzz0m2uT4LPL

[cowman]

56. I dont much give a fuck

what Caleron says, he is so anti-gun that he wants the U.S. to institute draconian gun laws because he can't control the drug trade in his country and he has to blame someone for his failures. Try using someone credible next time

[Katya Mullethov]

67. I got to play 20 question with Ramon Ayala's drummer recently

And he is of the opinion that 10 grand is not going to be enough to get him to gig another DTO private "Christmas party" and that the Mexican "govt" is doing a fine job of controlling the drug trade . Who actually runs the Mexican govt , and to what end , is the point of contention .

[shedevil69taz]

35. When a gun is used legally

to stop a crime of violence in progress the criminal that initiated the violence did indeed assume the risk of being killed for their actions.

All this story demonstrates is that the shooter had overall poor judgement which would have been there regardless of being armed with a gun or not.

[RamboLiberal]

39. Self Delete - meant to post later in thread

[sharesunited]

46. So sayeth the vigilante.

[shedevil69taz]

51. Stopping a violent crime in progress

using deadly force is not vigilantism. Which if you had bothered to comprehend my post you would have realized that I did not in anyway advocate for vigilantism or imply I am or want to be one.

[gorfle]

30. Fortunately, the vast majory are law-abiding forever.

He was a law abiding gun owner. Until he wasn't.

Fortunately, very few law-abiding gun owners become law-breaking gun owners. For CCW permit holders, it's less than 2%.

[sharesunited]

32. Yes, but guns are durable. They pose a threat beyond the lifespan of a single owner.

[RamboLiberal]

49. Stupid anti-gun argument of the day n/t

[RamboLiberal]

50. Self Delete - meant to post later in thread

Aargh - need to get out of this thread and get some dinner. :evilgrin:

[sharesunited]

57. Are most guns used in crime manufactured for criminals?

No. They are produced to be used lawfully.

So how do they end up being used criminally?

Either the law abiding person goes bad or they surrender or lose possession of their gun.

Key example, the gun outlives them.

[gorfle]

64. You're barking up the wrong tree.

The simple fact is that the idea that firearm owners just "snap" and go violent is a myth.

No matter who owns firearms, or how they got them, the single biggest predictor to violent crime is not firearm ownership - it is a prior criminal record:

http://www.cardozolawreview.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=138:kates201086&catid=20:firearmsinc&Itemid=20

"Naturally, such canards are supported by groups like the National Coalition to Ban Handguns which claims “most murders are committed by previously law abiding citizens where the killer and the victim are related or acquainted” and describes thousands of “gun murders done by law-abiding citizens who might have stayed law-abiding if they had not possessed firearms.”"

...

"Remarkable though this absence of supporting reference is for a scholarly publication, its justification is simple necessity. There are no homicide studies finding that most murderers—or many murderers, or even a few murderers—are ordinary sane people who killed in a moment of passion. The dozens of homicide studies dating back to the Nineteenth Century invariably show the overwhelming majority of murderers are long-time criminals with long prior records—and the rest are mentally deranged."

...

"For instance, though only fifteen percent of Americans have criminal records, roughly ninety percent of adult murderers have adult records (exclusive of their often extensive juvenile records), with an average adult crime career of six or more years, including four major felonies."

...

"What differentiates criminals and violent psychopaths from ordinary people is not their experiencing hatred or rage, but the ease with which those emotions are prompted and the acts to which they give rise. Killers exhibit an absence of impulse control and a seemingly inexplicable (to ordinary people) propensity to explode into extreme violence over the most trifling matters. Ordinary people virtually never kill, while the kind of people who murder often do so over things so trivial that we are left aghast not only at the fact of killing but at the inconsequential grievance that engendered it.27 The triviality of motive further confirms the extreme deviance of murderers.

To reiterate, the claim of gun prohibition advocates that most murderers are ordinary people is preposterous, devoid of even a shred of supporting evidence."

[Katya Mullethov]

66. Never a word about the predators

I cant blame you either , they are a vital resource for authoritarian statists and deliver without fail a steady supply of anger and fear that can blamed and redirected against someone or something else .

Society as a whole and the judicial system in particular can continue to choose catch and release as a means to fight crime . But apparently , it doesn't work (*), with the end result being stand your ground doctrine spreading coast to coast as the realization takes hold that we really are on our own .

If the concept of "against an unarmed assailant" is so imponderable , try " What about the predators ?" What about 'em ? Is it George Bushes fault ? Were they forced into a life of crime and aggravated buggery by societal pressures beyond their control ? Do they simply need a couple more chances ? Are there too many apparatchiks depending on them for their rice bowls , leaving the justice system as it now wobbles "too big to fail? "

I'm puttin' my money on (E) too big to fail .





( * ) http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=shot+wearing+ankle+bracelet+&btnG=Google+Search&rlz=1W1GGLL_en&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

Please not .....If you ever discover that you havehave bagged a tagged yellow bellied dirtbag , please notify the local constabulary immediately so that they can better ascertain its migration patterns . The seem to appear intersted .

[gorfle]

63. Yes, they have been around for hundreds of years.

Yes, but guns are durable. They pose a threat beyond the lifespan of a single owner.

Yes, I know, I own firearms that have been in my family for three generations.

And yet we all, like 95+% of all firearm owners, are law abiding. CCW permit holders are even more likely to be law-abding.

[Submariner]

5. He should get life without parole

lock the hothead up and throw away the key.

[cowman]

8. I agree

if he's found guilty by a jury of his peers. Obviously you've already convicted him, what happened to innocent until proven guilty?

[Submariner]

28. Sounds guilty of close to pre-meditated murder to me

After the argument, he walked away to his car to get his gun, obviously thinking about pointing the gun at the attendant, and returned to the scene to do just that.

He then used deadly force on a guy who was only reaching for a gun most likely to defend himself. Attendant was found dead with gun still in his pants belt.

He sounds like a hothead who couldn't just let it go and just get in his car and drive away. He had to escalate it ending in a head shot.

[Hoopla Phil]

10. There is a LOT of unknowns on this. I'm sure all will come out at trial

and justice will prevail in the end. Till then I am not going to rush to judgment and would hope that others do the same. Depending on WHAT some of the unknown information is it is possible that we MAY see an innocent verdict. Least we forget, there is a presumption of innocence until PROVEN guilty.

[RamboLiberal]

12. True - I'm going to make a note to myself to periodically

check on this case. Interesting to me as well since I'm in PA and OH is our neighbor state and a recent CCW state.

So far though from what I've read the evidence is a bit more damning against Warmus.

This one has all the makings of Sensational American Crime Story & Trial. Young man from a rich religious family gets into physical altercation over $10 parking charge with young man from a poor to working class mixed race background and kills him. Both men lawfully have guns. You have a girlfried involved. Did the shooter not want to be shown up before his girlfriend? Is there any hint of self-defense? Probable ability to hire the best in lawyers. Etc.

[cowman]

13. Yeah

but certain anti-2nd Amend posters truly believe that owning and carrying a gun makes you a criminal no matter the circumstances and if they use it in self defense, they should be locked up and the key thrown away

[unabelladonna]

15. geez, what a waste...

i can understand havinng a gun for self-defense but this is absurd. this shouldn't have happened.

[spin]

17. True, a very few concealed carry permit holders do misuse their weapons ...

But lets look at the statistics.

Florida publishes a monthly report on concealed carry which can be viewed at http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html

Between 10/1/87 - 03/31/10 Florida issued 1,744,945 Concealed Weapons Permits and currently 709,591 are valid. Only 167 licenses have been revoked for a crime committed with a firearm after the license was issued. This wasn't 167 licenses revoked in just one year but over the entire time frame that the law has been in effect, 22 years +.

Of course, every tragic incident involving a CCW holder and a misuse of a firearm will lead to cries from those who oppose concealed carry.

There are no statistics available on how many times that a permit holder legally used his weapon to prevent a violent attack or stop a crime. Often, no shots are fired. It does happen. Here's a few recent examples:

Police: Citizen shoots man attempting to hijack Metro bus after multiple wrecks
Posted on April 20, 2010 at 6:13 PM
Updated Wednesday, Apr 21 at 6:35 AM

HOUSTON – A wild crime spree ended in gunfire Tuesday when a citizen shot a suspect who was trying to hijack a Metro bus, Houston police said.

According to HPD, it all began at about 5:30 p.m. when Henry Hankston III, 37, carjacked a person who was visiting friends at a residence in the 5200 block of Fair Green in southeast Houston.

***snip***

Hankston fled northbound on Martin Luther King. About a block away from the carjacking, he struck the first vehicle and continued driving, Torres said.

"When he got to the intersection, he hit three other vehicles until he got to the point where his vehicle was disabled, got out of that vehicle and ran up to a bus that was turning through the intersection," Torres said.

Torres said the suspect entered the bus and began assaulting the driver, in an apparent attempt to hijack the bus, until the driver of a car idling behind the bus noticed what was happening.

"This person is a licensed concealed handgun carrier. He got out of the vehicle went to the bus to try to intervene in the assault that was taking place," he said. "He did pull the suspect away from the driver and engaged in a physical confrontation with the suspect."

As the two men struggled, the gun discharged and struck the suspect in the upper abdomen, Torres said.

"He got up and went and sat in his own car which, by the way, was on fire, and waited there, shot, and he was still there when the police and paramedics got here," Torres said.

Hankston was transported to Ben Taub Hospital, where he was in surgery Tuesday night. He was reported to be in stable condition. The bus driver was also hospitalized with injuries to his face and head. His injuries were not believed to be life-threatening.

Four of the drivers whose vehicles were struck were transported with none-life-threatening injuries.
http://www.khou.com/news/LIVE-VIDEO-Police-investigate-shooting-multiple-car-wreck-91655614.html

Legal concealed weapon ruins robbery try

Posted: Apr 13, 2010 3:21 AM EDT Updated: Apr 13, 2010 1:29 PM EDT

CINCINNATI, OH (FOX19) - Cincinnati Police are investigating a shooting where it appears a robber left the scene with the victim's cell-phone in his hand, and a slug from the victim's gun in his lower abdomen.

Police say the robber ran into someone with a concealed-carry permit, and at some point the would-be victim was able to get his gun out and shoot the suspect, who took off running from the shooting scene on Rosemont Avenue south of Glenway in West Price Hill.

He dropped the permit-holder's cellular phone somewhere on a six block run to West Liberty Street just west of Manss Avenue. That is where the suspect dropped to the ground and was found suffering from a gunshot wound.

The suspect was taken to the hospital and District Three officers were given the case.

Three people have been charged in connection with the case. Troy Hammond, 21, Tremaine Hughes, 22, and Todd Hammond are all charged with aggravated robbery. Todd Hammond was the suspect who was taken to the hospital. The other two are in the Hamilton County Justice Center.
http://www.wxix.com/Global/story.asp?S=12299813

Good Samaritan Stops Bank Robbery Suspect
Updated: Tuesday, 06 Apr 2010, 8:20 PM EDT
Published : Tuesday, 06 Apr 2010, 8:20 PM EDT

DETROIT - It's time to thank a hero for stopping a suspected bank robber. The man stepped up to help protect his city.

"It's up to us as citizens to say hey, enough's enough," said Michael Farrow. "We can help out."

At 10:00 a.m. Monday, a man is accused of passing a note to a teller at the National City Bank on Woodward, and then grabbing the cash and running out the door.

Good Samartian Michael Farrow saw him running down the street and decided to get involved.

Farrow has a CCW and was carrying a gun when he told the man to stop and get down.

"He actually thought I was a police officer at the time," he said.

Police arrived seconds later, taking 49-year-old Robert Lee Chandler into custody. He is a parolee, who police say has an extensive criminal history. The suspect will face charges.
http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/local/good-samaritan-stops-bank-robbery-suspect

Man Shoots At Teen Burglar Caught In Act
Posted: 12:16 pm EDT April 12, 2010Updated: 6:26 pm EDT April 12, 2010

DeLand, Fla. -- When a teenager tried to break into a DeLand house, he didn't count on the homeowner coming home as he was crawling through a window.

DeLand homeowner Daven Woulard opened fire on the 16-year-old he saw breaking into his house on East New Street (see map) Monday. The bullet didn’t hit the teen, but the homeowner still helped police make an arrest; the homeowner held down the suspect until the police got there.

The man was driving down the road, coming back from the store and, as the man and his wife glanced toward their yard, they saw 16-year-old Jarrett Holloman’s legs sticking out of their son’s bedroom window. The window had been smashed with a brick.

***snip***

After quickly pulling into his yard, Woulard grabbed his .44 Magnum handgun out of the car, a weapon he's carried with a permit for four years. He ran to the window and ordered the teen out.

"'Get down! 'Freeze!'" he said he yelled before firing a shot into the ground to back the order up.

Woulard said the teen didn't say anything as he held him to the ground and waited for police to show up.
http://www.wftv.com/countybycounty/23124408/detail.html

Forest Grove man scares off attacker with warning shot
The Forest Grove News-Times, Apr 8, 2010

A 55-year-old Forest Grove man narrowly escaped a brawl with a drunk 21-year-old from Cornelius early Wednesday morning by firing a warning shot from his pistol while he was pinned, Police said.

John McKnight was walking his dog on the 1700 block of Elm Street about a half-hour after midnight Wednesday when he was accosted by a trio of inebriated young men.

McKnight said the three men assailed him with insults and continued to threaten him. McKnight then drew a .38 caliber pistol and told the trio to back down.

Police say Michael W. Ryan III, a Cornelius man with no fixed address, then said he didn't believe the gun was loaded, and began to assault McKnight.

Police say that Ryan kicked and choked McKnight, who struggled to free himself. In the midst of the struggle, Ryan bit McKnight's finger.

"He bit his finger pretty severely," said Capt. Aaron Ashbaugh, spokesman for the Forest Grove Police Department.

McKnight told police that Ryan had him in a sleeper hold and he felt that he was losing consciousness when he fired a shot from his revolver near Ryan's head.

Only then did the young man back off, Police said.

Officers were on the scene shortly afterward, responding to a number of 9-1-1 calls made during the incident. One of the two men walking with Ryan told police he also called 9-1-1.

Ryan was arrested on charges of Assault IV, strangulation and disorderly conduct and was booked in the Washington County Jail.

McKnight, who suffered minor injuries from the assault, possessed a valid concealed weapon permit.
http://www.forestgrovenewstimes.com/news/story.php?story_id=127077009134675800

[RamboLiberal]

23. True - which is why I posted this story earlier in thread

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/04/state_numbers_show_majority_of.html

Ohio only got their CCW laws in 2005 so they are still new to this. This case is going to garner a lot of attention in Ohio I expect. Just the case alone has all the makings of a trial that will garner a lot of local/state media attention.

[spin]

59. The media will focus on the incident as an example of why ...

concealed carry should be repealed. They will totally ignore situations in which CCW holders use their weapons in a legal manner to stop crime.

[blue sky at night]

20. this is so sensless...

as so many other things are in our society...a guy that can afford a Cavs Game argues over $10.00, then his dad pulls ONE MILLION out of the bank for the BOND! We are one fucked up mess in this country...and guns always make it better! Regardless of the outcome of the trial, one man is dead and the other is scarred for life.

[Aramchek]

21. this guy should get a change of venue to Utah so he can be put down by firing squad

what a piece of shit this guy is.

[cowman]

24. Once again

you've already convicted him w/o a trial, do the words innocent until proven mean anything to you people?

[tqla]

37. Cowman, you keep saying that but..

it seems to me that the victim, who also had a gun, was the only one in this case who acted like a responsible gun owner. He actually got into a shoving match with the defendant wherein at one point he had him in a headlock and STILL he did not pull his gun out. He knew what it was an altercation that did NOT warrant gun use. The defendant was able to walk away but instead choose to go get his gun and come back to the scene. He's going to have a hell of a time proving self defense. In fact, it appears that victim was the one using self defense by reaching for his gun. This seems pretty obvious to me - I don't know why you're so adamantly defending the defendant - this isn't a threat to your right to apply for a permit to carry a gun. They both had them. Although just because you have a permit to carry one you should not be allowed to use it just because somebody embarrassed you in front of your girlfriend. Anyway, just saying..

[cowman]

40. Look

all I am saying is that in this country we are innocent until proven guilty, if you were accused of a crime, wouldn't you want the same consideration? IF he is found guilty then throw the book at him but until then, lets keep an open mind. Hey I thought we were progressives who believed in the rule of law. I am not defending him only giving him the same consideration I would give you in the same circumstances.

BTW, I have had a CHL since NV has allowed them and never had to use my gun yet and hopefully never have to

[tqla]

48. okay..

"BTW, I have had a CHL since NV has allowed them and never had to use my gun yet and hopefully never have to"

I'm glad you have never had to use it and I hope a shoving match with someone won't make you feel inclined to do so. I am a Prog Dem and a gun owner too and although mine are reserved mostly for coyotes and bobcats when they threaten my animals I do know the reality of what they can do to a human being and I would never ever point it at someone unless I intended to use it. This is why I believe that the kid was wrong for pointing it at the victim and that the victim was right for going for his. Guns are not to be used to show how bad ass you are. They are real and they do real damage.

[cowman]

58. I too know

what a firearm can do from personal experience in Vietnam and I have been a Las Vegas Firefighter/Paramedic for 35 years so I have had plenty of experience dealing with GSW. As far as getting into a shoving match and losing my temper and drawing my gun, I am pretty level headed and know that because I carry a gun, I have the greater responsibility to defuse the situation by walking away if at all possible but, if cornered by some asshole of a criminal who leaves me ABSOLUTELY NO CHOICE, I will not hesitate to defend myself

[tqla]

61. I agree.

Thanks for the chat cowman.

[cowman]

62. Good talking

to you too.
Peace out:toast:

[Aramchek]

54. if he went to his car and got a gun, then shot a man he was angry with, he committed a murder

[Aramchek]

53. he went to his car and got his gun + he could have left = it was murder.

[RamboLiberal]

42. 911 Calls from Witnesses & Video of the Suspect that night

http://www.fox8.com/videobeta/?watchId=91ad7727-2331-4040-8f81-11bde717d3cb

Including a short exchange between witness & Warmus. Warmus did stay at the scene.

This case sounds like something that should end up on 48 Hours or Dateline.

Decided to add this tidbit on edit:

Philip Bogdanoff, a retired Summit County assistant prosecutor with 30 years of criminal law experience, said a defendant must prove three circumstances to prevail in a self-defense claim.

Under Ohio law, he said, a person who uses the defense concedes to the killing. At trial, he must show through testimony that he had a bona fide belief of imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm, that the only means of escaping the situation was through deadly force and that retreating from the scene was not an option.

The defendant must also not have initiated the confrontation.

''It's a high burden of proof,'' Bogdanoff said. ''But the law is there because you have the right to self-defense, if the circumstances warrant it.''

http://www.ohio.com/news/91849559.html

Ohio doesn't apparently have a stand your ground law.

[RamboLiberal]

52. Lawyer: Shooter made split second decision

-----

On Friday, Warmus’ attorney, John Pyle, told NewsChannel5 that Warmus went to his trunk to get a camera to take photos of the parking space that was part of the dispute.

Pyle said that while Warmus was defending himself, he noticed that Williams had a gun and made a split second decision to fire his gun.

Warmus was also the first person to call 911 after the shooting, Pyle said.

NewsChannel5 has requested a copy of the call from the city of Cleveland, as that call was not initially released with the other 911 call we received. This call came in from an apparent witness at 7:01 p.m. that evening

But what happened from prosecutors’ point of view is slightly different. They say Warmus ordered Williams to get on the ground and then shot him once in the head and twice in the abdomen.

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/lawyer:-shooter-made-split-second-decision

As I said before this one has all the elements to turn in to a 48 Hours or Dateline story.

[struggle4progress]

60. Good thing everybody was armed. Otherwise somebody might have lost $10:

that's the sort of crime the police aren't good at solving

[Vinnie From Indy]

65. Ain't that the truth!

n/t