Gun laws aren't the answer, they're the problem (Chicago)

[shadowrider]

Crime is out of control in Chicago, far worse than most cities of a similar size, and 2010 has seen over 100 homicides already in the city.

In the wake of all of this, Illinois State Reps. John Fritchey and LaShawn Ford have called for Governor Pat Quinn to call in the National Guard to help restore the peace.

Other suggestions have poured in as well. Hiring more police, though budgetary restraints make that a difficult option, is always at the forefront. Social programs, drug law reforms, improved school funding, and other similar programs are all being discussed.

Mayor Richard Daley feels the answer is tougher gun laws, though fails to adequately explain how more gun laws will help in a city with laws already so strict they're the subject of a Supreme Court case.

http://www.examiner.com/x-2206-Cleveland-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2010m4d27-Gun-laws-arent-the-answer-theyre-the-problem

[sharesunited]

1. Fewer guns and less ammo are the answer. Make them scarce.

[HelenWheels]

2. I agree. n/t

[TheWraith]

3. Because that has worked so well with, say, cocaine.

As you know, no one in America can buy cocaine, since it's so heavily outlawed. Just as no one in Chicago owns a gun, since they're illegal there. :sarcasm:

[sharesunited]

4. Guns flood in here from other places. It requires a national initiative.

If we could make guns and ammo as scarce as cocaine we'd really be getting somewhere.

[TheWraith]

5. If you think cocaine is scarce in America, then you're really out there.

How many thousands of tons of it cross the US border every year?

Banning things and expecting them to go away doesn't work. Never has.

[sharesunited]

6. I know this: I can't go to the store and buy it on a whim.

[X_Digger]

9. No, but hit many street corners in any large city.

What a white-bread, utopian (dystopian really) nirvana you must live in (or work damn hard not to see.)

[Katya Mullethov]

10. One look at those "shiny black shoes "

And the jig is up .






A brunch tune .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVkk6fH2u0Y

[gorfle]

20. I bet you I could.

I have never even seen an illegal drug in my life, and I bet I could go buy some within 30 minutes.

[shadowrider]

21. Take your gun with you

Those dealers are some badass dudes

[X_Digger]

8. You really don't get it do you.. cocaine isn't scarce.

Fucking duh, what world are you living in?

Anyone in any large city or ex-urb can get any recreational substance in common use, legal or not, within 30 minutes to a couple of hours.

[sharesunited]

11. That is absurd. Who wants to risk selling to a LEO? Digger please.

[TheWraith]

12. So you deny it's possible to buy drugs on the street in America?

I knew you lived in your own special world, but really...

[sharesunited]

14. I can go to a gun store and buy guns and ammo openly, at published prices, without fear.

It might have been that way with cocaine in the 1890s. Not anymore!

[shadowrider]

16. PROVIDED you pass an NICS check, which includes info on mental problems

[TheWraith]

19. Yep. And best of all, there's no gang wars for control of the gun trade.

You know, like the gang wars that are responsible for between 75 and 90 percent of the US' murder rate, thanks to the black market created by drug prohibition.

[jeepnstein]

25. And cocaine is more plentiful than ever.

It's sold to anyone and everyone. Turf wars are settled at the point of a gun instead of in a court of law. Street gangs import it from abroad by the ton. The bulk of the crime we are seeing in this great nation of ours is directly linked to our insatiable appetite for illegal drugs.

You're a fool if you even try to state that cocaine is not widely available because it's illegal. It's available to anyone who has an appetite for the drug. Doctors, lawyers, pimps, prosecutors, rustlers, cut throats, murderers, bounty hunters, desperados, mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, halfwits, dimwits, vipers, snipers, con men, Indian agents, Mexican bandits, muggers, buggerers, bushwhackers, hornswogglers, horse thieves, train robbers, bank robbers, ass-kickers, shit-kickers and Methodists; all can get all the cocaine they desire.

[X_Digger]

17. You gotta be shitting me. n/t

[paulsby]

23. you have NO idea what you are talking about. i used to buy drugs undercover

quite frankly, it was pretty easy

i bought mj (to get my feet wet), cocaine, lsd, methcathinone, xtc, heroin, crystal meth (batu), etc. etc.

it's not rocket science.

and i was NOT in an inner city.

in chicago? it's practically an open air market for drugs in many areas

get real

[paulsby]

22. EVEN if we banned guns nationwide (which is unconstitutional) but for the sake of argument

there are already scores of millions of guns in private hands. how do you propose govt confiscate them without massively violating civil rights?

also, fwiw, cocaine is not scarce. it MIGHT be scarcer than guns (how do you measure. does 1 gm = 1 handgun) or not.

the reality is , it aint hard to find at all

[spin]

26. And has been pointed out numerous times ...

while that sounds easy and nice, it's a pipe dream.

You keep saying the same thing over and over, probably hoping that if you say it enough it just might happen.

You never bother to present a coherent argument for how you would accomplish this that would deal with existing firearms and ammo. There are more than 300 million firearms right now in our country. With reasonable care they just don't wear out. Many firearms made 200 years ago are still functional and modern firearms are more durable and stronger.

Ammunition also doesn't wear out or go bad as long as it is stored properly and not subjected to temperature extremes.

Instead of posting the same simplistic and unworkable idea over and over and over and over, why not take the time to carefully consider the problem and weigh your argument. If indeed you can find a realistic way to implement it, post it and counter the replies with logic and fact.

Otherwise you are living in a fantasy Alice in Wonderland world.

[oneshooter]

31. Maybe the Mexican and Canadian armies would help him? n/t

[Callisto32]

28. Scarce, scarce, scarce, sausage, egg and scarce.

It's like a mantra with you.

[proteus_lives]

29. It will never happen.

And it's not the answer.

Thank goodness.

[jazzhound]

33. It's absolutely astounding that you continue to babble the same line over

and over again while simultaneously refusing to explain exactly how you would "make guns and ammo scarce". The only explanation for how you manage to achieve this feat is complete denial --- and that's the very generous interpretation of the phenomenon.

[Hoopla Phil]

7. I'm sorry that I can only recommend this thread once. Excellent post!!!

[shadowrider]

13. I'd bow, but I might fall forward and not be able to get up..:(

[Katya Mullethov]

15. A beck will do

Rollie Pollie Rider

[cognoscere]

18. I suppose that's one way to get the Guard troops back from Iraq. N/T

[Travis Coates]

24. They're safer in Iraq than Chi-town NNTO

[jody]

27. A major problem is cultural in that one group commits 7 times as much violent crime as another group

when both groups have the same access to firearms.

[proteus_lives]

30. Hear, hear.

BTW: I love the picture in your sig-line!

[shadowrider]

34. It does kinda get the point across, doesn't it n/t

[The Magistrate]

35. What Point Is That, Sir? That Killers Shoot Their Way To Power Where Arms Are Freely Available?

[shadowrider]

36. Quite the opposite

Despots and dictators, shoot their way to power when there are no weapons among the populace to stop them. No resistance means a clear path to power.

[The Magistrate]

38. But That Is Not True, Sir

Weapons were freely available in the revolutionary situations that these men took advantage of to gain power.

The most humorous element of the mythos of 'right to keep and bear arms' types is the touching belief weapons in the hands of the populace are a bar to tyranny: they have proved on many occasions to be the implement of tyranny, and will do so again. The assumption that a majority of persons with guns in their hands will agree with you politically is a poor one; the assumption they will be friends of liberty is an even worse one.

[shadowrider]

40. They may have been available when they GAINED power before the reign of terror started

But they were confiscated after that power was gained. Easier to keep themselves in power against a disarmed populace.

Hitler was FREELY elected on his rhetoric and ability to blame everyone else (Jews) for Germanys problems. Once IN POWER, he confiscated weapons resulting in wholesale slaughter against those unable to defend themselves.

[The Magistrate]

42. Your History, Sir, is Very Weak On This Matter

German politics were conducted more by bullet than ballot in the Wiemar period. Assassination, most frequently of people on the left, was a routine feature. All political parties maintained armed wings, not just the Nazis but the Communists, the Nationalists, and the Social Democrats, and election campaigns consisted in fairly large part of brawls between these bodies, attacks on opposition rallies, and various other acts of violent intimidation. One consistent feature was the partiality shown by the police to the rightist elements of the street engagements, even when the ministries were in the hands of the Social Democrats. In the final period of elections, this de facto alliance of the Nazis with the police was reinforced by a quiet alliance with the Communists, who for reasons of an over-Machiavellian policy took the destruction of the Social Democrats as their chief aim of the moment, and joined the Nazis in breaking up Social Democrat rallies and attacking Social Democrat voters. The election was saturated in violence; the right was better at it than the left, and prevailed accordingly. The wave of arrests and torturous killings of leftists in Germany that came hard on the heels of Hitler's Chancellorship was in the nature of the mopping up of a defeated foe, and in many cases was pressed against men and women with guns in their hands. In that conflict, the state triumphed, as it generally does.

[shadowrider]

44. In a nutshell, are you trying to say gun control is/was not part of despots maintaining power?

[The Magistrate]

45. The Fact Is, Sir, Widespread Political Violence Tends To Favor Tyrants In Their Rise

The idea that an armed populace is a preventative against tyranny is not borne out by examination of history, and certainly not by the records of the figures you proclaim as illustrative of your belief to the contrary. There are several reasons why this is so. One of the major ones is that in actual political life, there is never a clean divide in which 'the people' are on one side and 'the government' on the other. Rather, it is always the case when political life in a nation reaches a point of violent confrontation that there are great divisions among the people, and also among their government and its agents. Each side of the divide will see itself as the true exponents of the people's will, and their opponents as the most dangerous enemies of that is best for the people. It is that, after all, that they will be wiling to kill and die over.

[shadowrider]

46. I'm not saying an armed populace prevents tyranny.

The population usually buys into the schtick being sold by the tyrant in waiting. It's only after attaining power the confiscation/prohibition occurs. Try buying a weapon in China (over and above a .177 caliber air rifle). Can't be done. Why do you suppose that is?

[The Magistrate]

47. Your Admission, Sir, An Armed Populace Does Not Prevent Tyranny, Strips You Of Any Point

If an armed population cannot prevent the rise of a tyrant, what can be achieved once the power of the state apparatus is in the tyrant's hands? In the latter condition, he is far more powerful than in the former.

It is true enough that some tyrants banish or restrict private possession of firearms, as a minor safety measure, but it is hardly the sturdy prop of their maintaining power. It is more in the nature of locking a car door; it keeps the amateurs out, but does little to inconvenience a professional. The bone and sinew of revolution is organization, and police state apparatus focuses on preventing this; people who are both organized and determined will contrive procurement of means for violence if they resolve upon it.

But tyrants do not by any means always strip their population of arms. Iraq under Saddam Hussein boasted a very well armed populace, to give one example only. Another of the weaknesses of your analysis is the assumption that the tyrant is universally or even widely unpopular, after he has been established in power. This is far from the case, even in the Communist regimes.

It is also worth remarking on the disdain you display to the very energetic opposition that has been offered to the most noteable tyrannies of the last century. It is not a question of 'the population buying into the schtick being sold by the tyrant in waiting', and only later finding itself helpless. In most instances large elements of the population resisted strenuously, under arms, and were beaten in the fight

[shadowrider]

48. Whatever. I'm done discussing this with someone who is obviously anti-gun

and possibly pro tyrant.

[The Magistrate]

49. If You Knew What You Were Talking About, Sir, It Might Be Possible For You to Continue

The kindest characterization possible is that you are a political naif, who has never bothered to look into the actual processes and history of revolution, civil war, and partisan warfare. It is clear that you are not used to engagement with people who have a reasonable grasp of that subject. Your retirement from the field, in consequence, is understandable.

[The Magistrate]

32. The Author You Have Cited, Sir, Is Insane

The crime rates in Chicago are roughly what they were last year, and well below those most people resident in the city any length of time can easily remember from years gone by. Even in the bad old days twenty-odd years ago, the city was hardly gripped by fear of crime, and most people, even late night drunks, went about their occupations and lives without much thought they were in any danger, as in fact they were not. It is true there have been a couple of 'active' weekends, and that there are a couple of local politicians who are grandstanding in a most flagrant manner. The fact is that things in Chicago are pretty much what they usually are, and calm as they usually are....

[Euromutt]

37. You could just say "wrong"

I mean, personally, I don't buy that Chicago's gun laws are the cause of the local violent crime problem, as opposed to merely being a completely misplaced and therefore ineffective way of attempting to mitigate it. As the slogan goes, "gun control is what you do instead of something useful," i.e. something that actually addresses the cause of the problem. But the logical upshot of that is that the condition of the local gun laws--be they lax or stringent--cannot be the cause of the crime problem.

That said, all other things being equal, where a violent crime problem exists, gun control laws do reduce the ability of the local citizenry to defend themselves, while having little to no effect in reducing the ability of the criminal element to victimize the local citizenry (or each other).

But for the author to overstate an exacerbatory effect into causal effect is merely that: an overstatement. It's incorrect, but it's not insane.

[The Magistrate]

39. No, Sir, 'Insane' is An Accurate Description Of the Degree Of Delusion Expressed By The Author

[Euromutt]

41. That's a remarkably pompous way of saying "is so!"

You can capitalize every word as much as you like, but unsupported assertion is all you have. So much theatrics for so little substance...

[The Magistrate]

43. The Man's View On Conditions In Chicago, Sir, Is So Far Gone as To Constitute Clinical Delusion

Feel free to instruct me on city life whenever the urge strikes you, however.

[friendly_iconoclast]

50. How very Soviet of you- those with whom you disagree are insane

In the latter days of the Soviet Union, those pesky dissidents were no longer shipped off to the Gulag, or given a discreet
bullet to the back of the head. They were proclaimed "mentally ill", and bundled off to some Bedlam.

[The Magistrate]

52. No, Sir: The Manifestly Insane Are So Described By Honest Persons

This fellow's description of conditions in Chicago is so distant from reality as to constitute clinical delusion.

[friendly_iconoclast]

51. The Guild of Calamitous Intent Stylebook requires it....

...and no, I do not know why our fellow DUer has adapted the manner of a Venture Brothers supervillain.
Nor does it matter, as long as he follows the rules.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild_of_Calamitous_Intent

[The Magistrate]

53. Not a Particularly Good Season This Year, Sir

"Yeah, he was just this guy... guy in a butterfly suit who got in over his head. And I could see it in his eyes that if I let him get away this one time he'd never come back...but then, I also thought...y'know...Kill 'im."