Bloody Urban Landscapes

[groovedaddy]

Chicago

Driving through some of this city’s neighborhoods is like driving through an alternate, horrifying universe, a place where no one thinks it’s safe to be a child.

You follow a map in which the coordinates are laid out in blood. Over there, in front of that convenience store, is where Fred Couch, 16, was shot to death last December. The Couch boy went to the same school, Christian Fenger Academy, as Derrion Albert, an honor student who was beaten with wooden planks and kicked to death three months earlier in a broad daylight attack that was recorded on a cellphone by an onlooker.

Right there, on South Manistee Avenue, is where a 7-year-old girl riding her scooter was shot in the head and critically injured a few weeks ago.

And here, on East 92nd Street, is where a toddler, just 20 months old, was shot in the head and killed in the back seat of her father’s car.

During a meeting with about a dozen men and boys on Thursday, some of them violence outreach workers on the South Side, I asked for a show of hands. “How many of you have been shot?” I asked. Five raised their hands.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/08/opinion/08herbert.html?th&emc=th

[Taverner]

1. Which shows that gun control obviously works....

:sarcasm:

[villager]

2. Yes, if only the toddler and 7 year-old girl had been armed...

n/t

[Taverner]

3. Chicago has some of the most stringent gun laws in the US

And they don't work

We could ban guns, go gestapo into people's homes, remove all the guns and it STILL wouldn't work

Granted, I also don't buy the "guns make you safer" argument either...

[jazzhound]

4. Have to take issue with you on your objection to the "guns make you safer"

argument.

Statistics prove that people who defend themselves with guns have much better outcomes (from attack) than people who don't -- and this effect is amplified in the case of women victims.

Also, FWIW --- I don't know of a single pro-gun rights person on this forum who argues that a gun is a 100% guarantee of safety. As a group, we argue that a firearm increases the odds of a favorable outcome if we end up on the receiving end of an attack.

[villager]

5. so the toddler and the 7 year old girl should've been armed?

so they could "defend" themselves? That it?

[gorfle]

10. These kids live in a war zone.

so the toddler and the 7 year old girl should've been armed? so they could "defend" themselves? That it?

These kids live in a war zone. They live in a war zone every bit as hazardous as living in, say, Iraq. According to the Department of Justice, there are approximately 100,000 gang members in Chicago.

http://www.justice.gov/ndic/pubs27/27612/estimate.htm

Personally, I would do whatever it took to move away from such a place.

No, neither a toddler nor a 7-year-old can stand up to gang warfare, even with a gun.

But you can bet it is going to take someone with a gun to stand up to the soldiers of this war, or giving up the war entirely.

[Taverner]

6. Yes - but how often are you armed and ready?

My argument has always been that gun control, at its heart, is a non-issue.

Switzerland and the UK have completely polar policies on guns. UK bans them completely, and they (through gestapo tactics, I might add) have gotten them out of the hands of everyone. Helps to be an Island, I guess. Switzerland, every boy and girl goes through mandatory firearm training (a good idea, in my opinion) and everyone has guns in the house.

Both have roughly equal crime rates

But the gun itself - its just a tool. A very specific tool designed to do a very specific task.

I never want to own one, but EVERYONE should have the right to own a tool if they want.

[friendly_iconoclast]

18. Not *quite* completely in the UK: "Gun crime in Hackney up by a third"

http://www.hackneygazette.co.uk/content/hackney/gazette/news/story.aspx?brand=HKYGOnline&category=news&tBrand=northlondon24&tCategory=newshkyg&itemid=WeED16%20Apr%202010%2015%3A19%3A20%3A850


Gun crime in Hackney up by a third
[e-mail]
16 April 2010

Gun crime in Hackney has increased by 29 per cent over the past year, according to the latest figures from the Metropolitan Police.

There were 182 firearm offences in the 12 months running up to the end of March, compared to 141 the year before.

The number of offences involving guns rose by 12 per cent across the capital....


....To see the latest crime figures for London and Hackney, go to http://www.met.police.uk/crimefigures/index.php


Even being an island didn't work

[Walk away]

7. You are so right....

Let's give up regulating them. Let's pass them out on street corners. In fact, they should be free because the constitution says we can all have them. I say we arm the entire city of Chicago! By your logic it will either have no effect or it will reduce gun crime.

Free guns for all! And open or concealed carry permits available at the CVS! Woo Hoo!

[Taverner]

8. Regulating them does no good

Trust me, we take them away from everyone, the only folks who will still have them will be the criminals.

And if we take theirs, they'll just get more. They don't follow the law.

[spin]

12. How about we start actually enforcing the laws we have?

Most regulations are reasonable, some like Chicago's are unreasonable. Chicago simply bans firearm ownership for honest citizens. Perhaps that might work if Chicago had an overwhelming and very efficient police presence to protect its citizens and a judicial system that would severely punish anyone caught illegally carrying a firearm.

Recently Mayor Daley has advocated more severe punishment for illegal carrying a weapon.

State Senate Approves Tough New Gun Measure
Measure Backed By Richard M. Daley Increases Unlawful Use Of A Weapon Penalties
Apr 29, 2010 6:28 am US/Central


The Illinois State Senate has approved a tougher new gun bill that was backed by Mayor Richard M. Daley.

The proposed law makes changes to the aggravated unlawful use of a weapon statute. It makes unlawful use of a weapon a non-probationable offense, and calls for one to three years in prison for any offender caught carrying a loaded weapon without a valid Firearm's Owner Identification Card.

"This law reduces the threat of gun violence by sending a clear message that serious offenders will be held accountable and will not be let off scot-free as many of them are today," Mayor Daley said in a news release.

***snip***

Mayor Daley pointed out in his news release that last year, the Illinois General Assembly passed three "common sense gun law" proposals he supported.

One measure classified unlawful use of a weapon by a gang member a Class 2 felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison. Another increased penalties for shooting students on or near schools or public transit. A third established an interstate gun trafficking task force within the Illinois State Police.

"Support of these bills is a clear sign that our people want these laws," Mayor Daley said in the news release. "That's why we will continue to work for common-sense gun laws that focus on stopping the flow of illegal guns into our communities and keeping guns out of the hands of criminals."
http://cbs2chicago.com/politics/illinois.gun.law.2.1663475.html

I approve of these ideas as they focus gun control on those who misuse firearms. Still Mayor Daley remains a strong supporter of totalitarian gun gun control and even is trying to enlist the aid of world courts to support his position.

Perhaps if Daley would have pushed his plan to punish criminals with guns in the past, we wouldn't see such a high level of gun related violence in the Windy City.

[proteus_lives]

28. Right on time with the canard fail.

:eyes:

[Hoopla Phil]

9. Bad people do bad things. Gun control will not stop that - only keep

the innocent from being able to defend themselves FROM the bad people.

[X_Digger]

11. Excellent point at the end..

“These kids did not come from the suburbs. They did not get dropped off of some spaceship. These are our kids. And we’ve got to take responsibility for them. A lot of them are angry because their daddy’s not around and their mama’s on crack.

“Who was there to teach them how to behave? We have to deal with this. We have to change this behavior. This is not what we were supposed to be.”

Addressing root causes is a hell of a lot harder than 'feel good / do nothing' gun laws, but it's the right course to take.

[Recursion]

13. Violence is at a 30 year low nationally

I'm sick of scare-mongering.

[Kolesar]

22. well said...eom

[safeinOhio]

14. Chicago doesn't even make the top 25

in violent cities. Places with more liberal gun laws rank way higher, like Orlando.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0921299.html

Of course Detroit is number 1 and they have more liberal gun laws too.

[X_Digger]

15. If your criteria is over 75,000 in population, yes.

The UCR provides the data, you can spin it any way you like..

For cities with pop > 75,000 - murder rate per 100k (2008 data)
Camden 70.88
New Orleans 63.60
Gary 51.20
St. Louis 46.88
Baltimore 36.88
Jackson 36.05
Birmingham 35.92
Detroit 33.78
Washington 31.43
Compton 29.62


For cities with pop > 250,000..
New Orleans 63.60
St. Louis 46.88
Baltimore 36.88
Detroit 33.78
Washington 31.43
Oakland 28.64
Kansas City 25.47
Newark 23.95
Cleveland 23.53
Pittsburgh 23.24

For cities with pop > 500,000
Baltimore 36.88
Detroit 33.78
Washington 31.43
Philadelphia 22.97
Memphis 20.53
Atlanta 19.70
Chicago 18.03
Columbus 14.50
Jacksonville 14.27
Indianapolis 14.10

For cities with pop > 750,000
Detroit 33.78
Philadelphia 22.97
Chicago 18.03
Columbus 14.50
Jacksonville 14.27
Indianapolis 14.10
Dallas 13.32
Houston 13.13
San Francisco 12.28
Charlotte-Mecklenburg 10.94

For cities with pop > 1M
Philadelphia 22.97
Chicago 18.03
Dallas 13.32
Houston 13.13
Phoenix 10.53
Los Angeles 9.97
Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department 8.87
San Antonio 8.58
New York 6.27
San Diego 4.33

eta: Those 'ranking' sites drive me nuts. There's never an explanation to know how they calculate them. From the link you provided- "based on a city's rate for six crime categories: murder, rape, robbery, aggravated assault, burglary, and motor vehicle theft." -- exactly how? Did they just add up the rates for those crimes? That seems disingenuous, since some crimes are more serious than others. I'd want to weigh violent crimes more than property crimes. If they did weight them, what weight did they use?

eta2: UCR data by city found here- http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2008/data/documents/08tbl08.xls -- I have a spreadsheet that automatically calculates rate if you'd like a copy.

[safeinOhio]

19. The figures I pointed out were

for violent crimes that include murder. Still there are cities with way less restrictive gun laws that have way more murders than Chicago.
According to yours New Orleans has three times the rate and way less restrictive gun laws. Jackson and Birmingham have twice the rate and I'm guessing Alabama and Mississippi have very liberal gun laws. I think both sets of stats show that crime rates have many different causes. Yet people on this post blame all of Chicago's on gun laws. How do they explain Birmingham's? New York and San Diego have three times fewer murders/capita and just about as restrictive laws as Chicago.

Yes this year has an uptick in murders, but no change in gun laws this year.

[X_Digger]

20. While it doesn't correlate..

.. it must suck to be an upstanding, law abiding citizen of chitown only to feel like a fish in a barrel, with no effective means to protect yourself, short of moving or barricading oneself indoors.

Be interesting to see where Chicago falls on the violent crime index, but since they don't report those numbers in a format that the FBI recognizes.. Ah well.

[safeinOhio]

24. I live where I wish and vote with my feet

Millions feel safe enough in Chicago to stay. Detroit is not as safe and people are moving out. Orlando? not nearly as safe as Chicago. My guess is, if you are not involved with drugs, gangs and triangle love affairs, you are as safe as in any city of that size.

[X_Digger]

25. See my eta note above..

Drives me nuts to not know how they came up with the rankings. The overall violent crime rate in chicago can't be compared to any other city that reports it.

I don't fault someone for not having the means to move out of a bad neighborhood. I grew up poor. I know what it's like to live in an area with crushing unemployment, no educational opportunities, and no future. It happened to be rural Southwest Virginia for me, where the only viable opportunities for most were coal mines and the military, but the results is similar.

The only way I got out was with help from outside. I was single- I can't imagine trying to wrangle the resources necessary to try to move a family.

[safeinOhio]

26. I'd like to see some stats

on how many of the killings involve drugs, gangs or love triangles. If you can't afford to move, you can stay away from the bull crap.

[benEzra]

23. Alabama is ranked 19th strictest in the nation by the Brady Campaign, at last count

so its gun laws are stricter than average. My own state of NC (home of Charlotte) is ranked 13th strictest.

The South is, contrary to media stereotype, not the most pro-gun region in the United States, a fact that is largely a reflection of the Jim Crow era.

[Walk away]

16. Hey! You aren't getting your info from the 3 zillion pro gun "talking point" sites!

That doesn't seem fair somehow.

[X_Digger]

21. Right, because comparing Chicago (pop 3,000,000) to Orlando (230,000)..

.. is apples to apples.

*snort*

[safeinOhio]

27. Why not?

take
Camden 70.88
New Orleans 63.60
Gary 51.20
St. Louis 46.88
Baltimore 36.88
Jackson 36.05
Birmingham 35.92
Detroit 33.78
Washington 31.43
Compton 29.62

and then take Chicago 18.03. If you lived in any of the above cities you'd be from 2 to 3 times safer living in Chicago. The figures are based on per 100k in the population.
It's more like comparing small apples to big apples, it is still individuals per 100k.

[X_Digger]

29. Why not take it to the ridiculous extreme?

OMG the most 'daaaangerous' city in the united states?

McIntosh, Alabama, with it's murder rate of 429/100,000!!!!!

(Never mind that there are only 233 residents of McIntosh.)

It's fair to compare similar-sized cities, but using a rate per 100k when there isn't even 100k residents? A bit disingenuous.

[friendly_iconoclast]

30. OK then, let's compare Chicago to Houston, the next city down in size

Despite having lots of poverty and waaay more relaxed gun laws, the Houstonians manage not to kill each other
quite as much as Chicagoans.

Care to hazard an explanation of why Houston is safer than Chicago?

[spin]

17. Interesting since Chicago has had over 100 murders so far this year ...

Chicago surpasses 100th homicide mark

The 100th homicide of 2010 was recorded last week in Chicago, a RedEye analysis of preliminary police data found. It was about the same time last year—April—the city's homicide tally moved into triple digits.

In the last week, Chicago police recorded 17 homicides, an unusual spate of violence for April. Sixteen of the victims died from gunshot wounds. One victim, a 78-year-old woman, died from asphyxia after a plastic bag was placed over her head in her Edgewater home, according to information from the Cook County Medical Examiner's Office.

Meanwhile, North Lawndale recorded three homicides in the last week, including a double homicide on Sunday in which two men, ages 21 and 25, were shot to death, according to a records review.

Chatham and Greater Grand Crossing each saw two homicides in the last week. Gunshot deaths also were recorded in Auburn Gresham, Avalon Park, East Garfield Park, the Lower West Side, Morgan Park, New City, Roseland, Washington Park and West Englewood.

Citywide, 34 homicides have been recorded so far this month and 106 this year, as of 4 p.m. Wednesday, RedEye found. Chicago police recorded 41 homicides in April last year, based on a RedEye analysis.
http://homicides.redeyechicago.com/

[jody]

31. If a Chicago politician can't solve the problem of murder rates 7.6 higher in the black community

than the white community, then how can can that same politician solve the Taliban problem in Afghanistan-Pakistan?

Enough already, bring our troops home from Afghanistan and fight domestic terrorism. :grr:

[jody]

32. Cities over 1 million murder rate, Philadelphia 23, Chicago 18, San Deigo 4

DOJ source
2008, cities over 1 million, crime rate per 100,000 population

	Violent Crime 	Murder etc
Chicago 	1,208	18.0
Dallas	          894	13.3
Houston         1,106	13.1
Las Vegas	  984	 8.9
Los Angeles	  689	10.0
New York City	  580	 6.3
Philadelphia    1,441	23.0
Phoenix	          659	10.5
San Antonio	  717	 8.6
San Diego	  475	 4.3