Guns impersonal?

[Callisto32]

I just posted similar thoughts in a response and thought that it merited it's own thread, since I have heard the idea before.

Someone said something along the lines of "using guns to harm something seems to be to be impersonal..." I have heard this basic sentiment before, people saying that using guns makes it easier to kill because it separates you from the act and isn't "personal" like using a blade or a blunt object, your your own body.

From personal experience I can say this is crap, at least for some of us. I have never shot a human being (knock on wood). I have however shot animals for purposes of both eating and pest control. The ones killed for eating were admittedly a little bit easier, because that was the reason the animal was raised: to die to feed the family. You have time to make sure the shot is as clean as absolutely possible, and I have never had an animal shot this way not die immediately. Those that are pests are a little more difficult because the shot is very rarely perfect, and the animal does not usually die immediately, and even a second of suffering inflicted seems to be too much.

That said EVERY one of these animals haunts my memory, and each one was killed with a firearm. I could tell you the moment each died in detail, because it was personal. I have NEVER killed even a head of livestock that did not have a recovery period. I can get through it, because it has to be done to eat. If we don't kill the cow, we don't eat meat. If the rabbits reduce the crops to a nubbin, we don't eat plants, either.

Being able to deal with a distasteful act because it must be done does not make it impersonal, it is very personal. All taking of (animal) life has been personal. I fell horrible when I step on an ant.

To anyone with half a heart, taking life will be personal, no matter the method used.

[sui generis]

1. I do think there are some people who aren't as conscientious

And rural folks have a different interaction with their environment than suburban paranoiacs (I know, inflammatory).

I have posited this before, my hyperbolic belief that the biggest reason a suburbanite or white bread city dweller would believe they could rely on a firearm is because generally speaking they don't tend to be in the best shape or they perceive themselves to be vulnerable for other internal reasons that rarely have anything to do with reality or their living environment.

My partner is a former naval Lt.Cdr who served on the Enterprise (aircraft carrier, not starship) and for myself, I really enjoy full contact unprotected sparring (just left a boxing gym here in Dallas and have the bloody knuckles and bruises to prove it :P), but I'm more worried about MRSA from a dirty sparring partner than gangbangers and wiferapers and bears, oh my.

Mostly, rational people in civil society don't view the world as chock full of dangers that require lethal response of any kind. People who feel threatened all the time or who claim they "must be prepared" all the time are living in a different world than virtually every other American in modern civil society, and it ain't pervasive guns that make society civil. It's having a higher standard of living throughout the day than the wild wild west that makes it civil.

I don't have a problem with the second amendment - or with christianity, so much as with their proselytizing followers. I love fresh venison, not crazy about rabbit, but pheasant, quail and duck - yum. My partner's family has a private dairy farm and they slaughter their own in-pasture - same deal as you, not something they enjoy or are even completely comfortable with all other considerations aside, but probably more humane than slaughterhouse.

My biggest problem after realizing that the most paranoid among us are the most likely to be packing and claiming to be oppressed by phantom gun grabbers is this: the threat of lethal force is acceptable for nearly any threat of violence however ridiculous to the rest of us. I don't trust stupid paranoid people to drive a damn car, so I have to wonder why I need to accept that many (not generalizing) would be much smarter under duress in a situation in which they might be at risk of physical injury or at best, simple lack of proper situational judgment.

Anyway, in addition to the idea of a "right" to bear arms I also believe it should be a privilege to be licensed to do so, just as we license drivers to engage their judgment in public traffic with a vehicle, and stupid people with cars aren't half as dangerous to everyone around them as stupid people with firearms.

[GreenStormCloud]

3. You are discussing a low probability/high impact situation.

All of us admit that the probability of needing our gun one day is very low. Most of us will go through our lives without ever needing our gun to defend ourselves with. But if it does happen, the results of not having that are severe, sometimes fatal.

[spin]

6. I've carried a firearm concealed for close to 20 years ...

I've carried it in bad neighborhoods and good neighborhoods, during the day and late at night.

I've never had to draw the weapon. I have little reason to suspect that I ever will and am far from paranoid or living in fear. I would never want to use my weapon for self defense and the last thing I would ever want to do is to shoot someone who was attacking me.

However if someone does attack me with the intention of severely hurting me or killing me, I prefer to have a means to stop the attack. I enjoy life and have no desire to spend months recovering from an attack or to be placed six feet under. I would never provoke an attack and by practicing situational awareness, I hope to avoid finding myself in a situation where I am prey to some predator.

Some of your comments about really enjoying "full contact unprotected sparring" could be used against you by some to paint you as an aggressive person likely to look for a fight to prove his manliness. The same arguments that you use against those who carry could easily be directed at you. You would undoubtedly defend your practice with many of the same reasons that a person who carries a concealed weapon and practices with it at the range would use.

While I never engaged in sparring in a boxing ring, my father had some experience as a boxer and taught me the basics. I did use the skills a few times to stop an attack but only when necessary as I learned from my father to never start a fight. I remember that I broke a bully's nose once in high school. I never had another similar situation in high school as I had a rep as a little kid with a fast and powerful punch. I would have loved to get into amateur boxing, but such sport was not available in the rural area I where I grew up.

Later in life I did take some judo and jujitsu lessons with my wife and daughter. We enjoyed the classes and the physical workouts. We learned some useful tactics and had a lot of fun in the process.

I bought my first handgun mainly for my wife. The neighborhood we lived in had reports of a prowler and since I was working nights, she wanted a means for self defense in the home. I had fired rifles in the service and took her to the range to gain familiarity with the firearm. I was never that fond of shooting in the military but I discovered that target shooting with a handgun was extremely challenging and a very enjoyable sport. My wife also enjoyed shooting and became quite proficient. I took up reloading and made my own ammo. Over several years I acquired a small collection of handguns and found a hobby that I still enjoy today.

I had little interest in getting a concealed carry permit when they first became available in Florida. A co-worker and fellow shooter with a permit asked why I had never bothered. I replied that I couldn't see a good reason. He knew that I had a firearm in my car and that I enjoyed traveling a little faster than the law allows. He mentioned that if I was pulled over by the police, the fact that I could show a concealed weapons permit would make explaining the firearm in the glove box easier. It made just enough sense to push me into getting my first permit.

I really didn't carry the firearm on a regular basis until the range master at the pistol range asked why. Again, I stated that I didn't see any real need. His response was, "You've taken the time and effort to get the permit. The state of Florida granted it because you are proven to be a good citizen and because they want you and the other people with permits to carry their weapons. They don't want you to be a cop, but they want you to have the ability to stop a serious crime against you or someone else. They feel that when criminals realize that many people are armed, crime will drop."

I asked another shooter who always carried why he did so. He said, I'm unable to find a calendar that will remind me that I need to carry my firearm today. So until I do, I will make it a practice to carry everywhere I legally can."

So I started to carry. It became a habit.

I know many people with concealed carry permits and I find very very few to be paranoid, fearful or dangerous in any manner. They carry for many reasons the most common being that they are self reliant and prefer to be prepared for any eventuality. They often carry a tool kit in their car along with a couple of cans of oil and have fire extinguishers in their home and often their vehicle. Some are religious, many are not. All are licensed to carry and have clean records without any indication of anger management problems, severe mental illness or substance abuse. They come from a wide range of backgrounds and some are well educated and hold degrees and some are merely high school graduates. Some own their own business, some are doctors or lawyers or ministers, some are factory workers and some work at menial jobs. Many have served in the military or the police.

Before you throw insults at those who carry, may I suggest you look in the mirror and consider what you had to say about yourself. I'm sure that you are a rational stable individual who enjoys sparring and sees the bruises and bloody knuckles as badges of honor and skill. Very similar to the person who carries a firearm and is proud of his score on the pistol range.

[sui generis]

7. I don't understand why YOU think I'm referring to you.

I believe that most of the people who reply to my posts with care and rational speech are in fact rational - so it always confounds me when somebody volunteers to be offended. I don't believe that would be you, even though the sane mostly don't reply. :P

If you're not nuts I'm not talking about you, Spin. There really is a segment of gun nuts who we all SHOULD be worried about, but they're not in my circle and vice versa. Regarding your observation, I am not the slightest bit worried about what other people think of me, or in fear of how somebody might "paint" me. ANYBODY who knows me in the real world (the only people whose opinions really count) knows that the very last thing I would ever do is pick a fight or even engage.

Anyway, I'll admit I do like physical hands-on violence, just for the sake of it. If some MMA pretty boy takes offense to being compared to me, so be it. It's a hobby, not my identity, and only with other people of equal skill in a fairly controlled setting, and certainly not "on the street".

However, one of the gyms I go to is what most would correctly call a "Mexican Boxing Gym" and even in that controlled setting there is always some short mean tatted shit who wants to kick the gringo fag's ass who I'm sure is as willing to stir shit elsewhere too. Yes there are crazy people who shouldn't be in pubic regardless of their weapons of choice, but I am not them, so being aligned with them means nothing to me.

The roots of my antipathy - the shit my dad sends me that is verbatim the same stories that my further on the fringe friends send, and sometimes is the same nearly verbatim hoo haw that shows up in the gungeon. I see a pattern of information dissemination that seems to prey on certain people, my dad included, that annoys me. Imagine if someone like me had a forum about saving the day by beating the living shit out of some grandma-threatening villain, thirty variations of the story, every week. It gets kind of old.

Anyway, I guess verbal sparring is a hobby too. Didn't intend to offend you - I'm just grousing about my pet peeves.

[spin]

9. I agree that there are people who shouldn't carry weapons ...

and there are people who shouldn't own firearms.

Obviously, criminals with a violent record should not be allow to carry a weapon or own one as they have proved their lack of responsibility. People with a record of alcohol abuse or suffer from serious mental problems also should be stopped from buying firearms.

You also have to know yourself and your weaknesses before you decide to purchase a firearm. If you live in a volatile relationship with a significant other, it's wise to avoid a firearm in your house. If you have children, certain precautions should be taken to avoid tragedy.

Often people fail to realize that upbringing and environment makes other people and their motivations appear strange. It simply makes the world interesting, but just because a person is for against an issue like gun control it doesn't make them a bad or dangerous person.

I often am amazed that I developed an interest in shooting as I was not raised around firearms and had little knowledge of them. My father was opposed to firearms and would allow no functional firearms in his house.

My mother did own a little .22 cal S&W Ladysmith revolver that was well hidden. I, of course, found it along with some old .22 cal ammo. I do remember loading it and playing with it. Fortunately, my father had deactivated it by removing the firing pin. Later I found that my father had actually shot firearms with my uncle in the basement of a police officer and was a good shooter. He also carried a small semi-auto pistol while working for Naval Intelligence in WWII while he was tracking German Spies in the U.S.

But my father had a nasty Irish temper and it took little to set him off. Perhaps he was one of the people I described above as a person who realized his own weaknesses and decided that firearms were not for him.

My mother's life experience undoubtedly contributed to my interest in shooting. She had once used the small revolver I found to deter an attacker who rushed her while she as walking home. Two shots over his head and he ran. She remembered shooting her father's .45 auto at tin cans when she was a teenager. I took her to the range once when she was in her late seventies and she could still handle the recoil of the .45 auto. She wasn't a target shooter, but could still hit a target at 25 yards.

I see no problems with your sparring at your "Mexican Boxing Gym". As I mentioned, I would have loved the opportunity to participate in amateur boxing if the opportunity would have been available. Some people might feel that you are violent or aggressive because you enjoy the sport and the combat. Such people have little understanding of other people and foolishly stereotype because of their own upbringing and experiences. They need to realize that in different circumstances they might also enjoy the sport and the physical contact without ever having the desire to misuse the skills they learn to hurt others.

I did find some concern with your statement:

My biggest problem after realizing that the most paranoid among us are the most likely to be packing and claiming to be oppressed by phantom gun grabbers is this: the threat of lethal force is acceptable for nearly any threat of violence however ridiculous to the rest of us. I don't trust stupid paranoid people to drive a damn car, so I have to wonder why I need to accept that many (not generalizing) would be much smarter under duress in a situation in which they might be at risk of physical injury or at best, simple lack of proper situational judgment.

I have found few people who carry to be excessively paranoid. I have to admit that there may be a problem with my reasoning as most of the people I know who carry are regular shooters, many with a military or police background. I have had less contact with those who acquire a concealed carry license and "pack heat" without taking the time to develop the necessary skills to use their weapon in an emergency. They rarely show up on the range where I might meet them.

Still, statistics show that those who are licensed to carry concealed rarely misuse their firearms. I suspect that the background check eliminates the overwhelming majority of people who would be untrustworthy when carrying a weapon. The truly dangerous people will have probably acquired a record before they reach the age where they can apply for a concealed carry permit.

You stated that you believe that being licensed to carry a lethal weapon in public is a privilege. I agree. Some states now have a policy that an individual can carry openly or concealed without a license. I personally would prefer that licenses are a requirement. It's worked extremely well in Florida with the concealed carry permit program. Open carry in public is not allowed, so I have little experience with open carry or those who chose to.

I do agree that there is excessive fear of gun confiscation from the Obama administration. Obama is less likely to ever push such ideas. McCain would have been far more likely to promote draconian gun law, as he was NO friend of gun owners. Republicans often support RKBA and than screw gun owners. I feel far safer with Obama. He may not like firearms but he doesn't talk out of both sides of his mouth like McCain.

I see no problem with verbal sparring on an internet forum. It's fun and often leads me to rethink my viewpoint.

[old mark]

2. EVERY gun forum - no matter how rabidly right wing- periodically has a question

asking if anyone who carries a gun has ever drawn it to defend themselves. I am sure beyond doubt the "liberals" here would be shocked to discover that even the rightists (and those of us leftists) who carry guns actually DO feel the responsibility and weight of that decision and DO worry about finding one's self in a situation where such a measure is called for.

You speak of being in "constant fear" - I think of it as being in constant readiness to defend myself and my family from those who regard others as targets of opportunity. Many people who carry guns are made much more aware of potential bad situations on the street - and take GREAT PAINS to avoid them, including just walking away from confrontation-even potential confrontation.

Again, the anti-gun people become insulting and belittling to those of us who choose to carry/own weapons to defend ourselves. I have little use for the opinions of such arrogant people.

mark

[DonP]

4. Gun owners as "cartoon characters"

Your points are well put.

A lot of people have bought into the gun owner as a slack jawed, beer swilling yokel. It's easier to demean and discount them if you buy into that stereotype I guess. I find the fact the it's done here regularly, by people that are supposed to look and value beyond stereotypes to be very disconcerting sometimes.

I taught my wife and kids situational awareness long before they ever learned to shoot.

I've always thought of people asking the question of whether you have ever drawn a gun or shot anyone as either unwitting or just plain rude voyeurs.

It's the same way with folks that find out you were in combat and ask "did you ever kill anyone". I always want to respond with a smart ass question like; "Well, how many other people has your wife slept with?" but never do. Asking if you ever used deadly force is an extremely personal question. My uncle was in the USMC in the Pacific through WWII. Another Uncle was in Korea at Chosin Reservoir and my Dad was on North Atlantic Convoy duty. They almost never spoke of what they did beyond talking about the exotic places they saw.

One of my uncles came back to become a Chicago cop and I know he was involved in a shooting at an armed robbery where two people were killed. He never spoke of it either.

In fact, most of the folks that talk a good game about their gun and constantly make references to their training and skills, are the same kind of guys that were REMFS but talked like they were Airborne Rangers.

Every person I've known that carried regularly was one of the most level headed people you'd want to meet.

Sure, with millions now carrying I'm sure there are a few jackasses that come pretty close to fitting the stereotype, but they are a distinct minority compared to the average gun owner.

[old mark]

10. There are jackasses in every crowd - Honestly I believe the reality of

carrying a potentially deadly weapon does positive change on many of them even the ones who start as cowboys - it eventually sinks in.
I am remimnded that Florida started a list of CCW licensed persons who were arrested for gun related crimes, but stopped after several years because the number arrested was so small it was not worth the effort/expense of keeping a list. IIRC, the FBI says it is less than 1/10th of 1%.

Does carrying a gun make a person MORE RESPONSIBLE? Anecdotally, it seems that way to me...

mark

[rrneck]

5. A handgun was designed

to operate within the radius of what most people consider "personal space". Bullets fly in a direct line from one individual to another. The circumstances and consequences of using a firearm in defense or offense are immediate, significant, and long lasting.

It doesn't get more personal than that.

[Travis Coates]

8. I've seen people die

It's kind of a given in my line of work. I've seen the behind the scenes stuff that happens when a person dies in a hospital. I've walked spouses of 60 years through the paperwork associated W/ death and I've had people pronounced while I was doing CPR on them (technically they're already dead when I start CPR). And it never gets impersonal.

I held my pet ferret when the vet put her down and I cried like a baby.

Unless you're some kind of sociopath I can't imagine how it couldn't bother you

But as long as the sociopaths have guns we'd better too