NRA Strong-Arms GOP Into Supporting “Guns in Bars”

[marmar]

via AlterNet:



Posted by Faiz Shakir at 2:58 pm
May 12, 2010

NRA Strong-Arms GOP Into Supporting “Guns in Bars”


This post originally appeared on Think Progress.

Last month, Virginia Gov. Bob McDonnell (R) signed legislation to allow “concealed carry permit holders to bring loaded guns” into establishments that serve alcohol. The law does not permit gun holders to consume alcohol, though the gun lobby is working to get that changed.

Virginia isn’t alone in its quest to arm its bar patrons. The Georgia state house has also passed a bill that would make it “legal to enter a bar or restaurant with a licensed concealed weapon and get drunk,” as long as the individual doesn’t fire the weapon.

Tennessee, too, is trying to follow in Virginia’s footsteps. Last year, the legislature overrode Gov. Phil Bredesen’s veto to pass a law providing gun owners the right to carry their weapons into any restaurant, except those whose predominant business was to serve alcohol. But the law was declared unconstitutionally vague by a state court, so Tennessee is trying again. This time, the law provides “no exclusions for where guns can be carried, as long as permit holders don’t consume alcohol.”

Rep. Joe McCord, a Republican state legislator with an A+ plus rating from the NRA, explained what is going on:

‘Essentially, NRA is saying to us, if you don’t support and vote for carrying guns in bars, we will not endorse you,’ McCord said. ‘This line of reasoning borders on lunacy. .............(more)

The complete piece is at: http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2010/05/12/nra-strong-arms-gop-into-supporting-guns-in-bars/

[baldguy]

1. NRA=GOP

Always has been, always will be. Nothing changes.

[bulloney]

14. Every presidential election, the NRA comes out and makes stuff up about the Democrat taking our guns

The Democratic candidate will explicitly say that he/she supports gun rights and the Second Amendment, but the NRA will still endorse the Republican and launch a smear campaign against the Democrat.

Funny thing, one of the most restrictive federal gun legislation passed in the last 30 years was the Brady Bill. Brady was a staffer of the patron saint of Republicans, St. Ronnie Raygun.

[pipoman]

18. Every election our party chooses to put

silly gun control idiocy in our platform. The gun control debate is over, it ain't happening, it is time to quit enabling these types of claims.

[joeybee12]

87. It's time for sensible gun regulations...the 2nd amendment was never

meant for anything but to keep the federal government from interfering with state's forming militias...it's a relic of the past, to think it's anything but is sheer lunacy.

[X_Digger]

91. Take it up with these guys..

http://www.gallup.com/poll/108394/Americans-Agreement-Supreme-Court-Gun-Rights.aspx

[Callisto32]

117. You are just flat wrong.

I HATE having to do this again, but here it goes:

1. The 2nd says "....the right of the people...."
2. Somehow, people thinks this means the right of the state.
3. This cannot be.
First, states are corporate entities, they have powers and privileges, not rights.
Second, the phrase used is "the people." The 10th amendment uses this same word.
When you use a word in a statute, that word always means the same thing.
In the 10th Amendment, the people, the state, and the feds are distinct.
Therefore, they must also be distinct in the second.


The reason it doesn't differentiate in the second is because the drafters thought it would never be questioned. This is evident from the convention where some argued that putting language protecting the right to bare arms wasn't necessary because it was so basic it would never be questioned.

What is a "relic" is your outmoded form of thinking where you think others should be bent to your will, even though they harm no one.

[PavePusher]

122. Got proof?

Or are you merely continuing wild-ass assertions?

[GreenStormCloud]

143. The framers left lots of their writings about guns and law.

Just read some of them. It is easy to demonstrate that they intended for it to be an individual right, not a collective right of the government.

[PavePusher]

145. Aaaaaggghhh! Facts! Run away, run away....! n/t

[GreenStormCloud]

142. You are beating a dead horse.

SCOTUS has already ruled on that one. Your side lost.

[SteveM]

168. "Sensible" gun regulations [prohibitions] is what made the modern NRA. nt

[SteveM]

167. Check out the Democratic Party Platform's position on the...

"Assault wepons ban." Who needs "smear" when you leave yourself wide-open for attack by your own statements.

Funny thing, "Democratic" gun-controllers here don't mind citing a GOP-founded, GOP-led organization to support their views. And the Bradys don't mind stooping to quite a few "smears" as well.

Don't you think it's time for the Democratic Party to DROP gun-control from its Platform? Really?

[TheCowsCameHome]

19. Membership recruitment crap I get from them always names Dems

as enemies of their agenda. Pelosi, Hillary, Reid, etc.

Never a republican name, always a Democrat.

[GreenStormCloud]

144. Bloomberg is a Republican, and he is one of the NRA enemies. N/T

[GreenStormCloud]

141. Some Democrats get endorsed by the NRA, if they are pro-gun rights.

For example, the governor of Iowa is a Democrat and has an A rating from the NRA. And the NRA hates Bloomberg, who is a Republican.

[jazzhound]

150. Here's another "equation"...............

Poorly crafted gun control led by Democrats = political victories for the GOP.

Sad that so many "progressives" are unable to check their egos long enough to study this unfortunate truth.

[SteveM]

166. Gun-control = Empowered NRA. Still helping them, eh?

[AndyA]

2. Support the NRA, support the GOP.

What do they say about a fool and his or her money? :eyes:

[pipoman]

6. In the last election cycle

the NRA gave more money to Democratic candidates than ALL of the gun control groups combined. The NRA gives financial support to candidates who are in favor of liberal interpretation of the 2nd Amendment because that is their one and only cause...the more Democrats who abandon the loosing gun control plank of the platform, the more Dems who will be supported by the NRA. In the last presidential cycle, if for instance Gov. Richardson had received the nomonation the NRA would have absolutely endorsed him...it is really that simple.

This is not to mention that the NRA has likely saved more lives through their safety programs than any other .org on the planet. The OP fails to use the actual .org, NRA-ILA which is the political side of the NRA.

[marmar]

8. And the NRA promoted the meme that Obama was going to take away everybody's guns:

http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/20/nra-to-nutters-obama-will-take-your-guns-away-if-saxby-chambliss-loses-runoff/


So, fucking please with the defense of that organization. :eyes:

[pipoman]

10. Obama said on the lead up to the election

that he intended to seek the reinstatement of the failure, the assault weapons ban as well as other gun control legislation. As did the Democratic party platform. Now I'm not saying I am 100% in the NRA-ILA corner, only that this piece is making erroneous claims.

[marmar]

12. Sorry, but the NRA is one of the most toxic, dishonest organizations in the country....

..... they have poisoned the political debate in this country for decades.

[pipoman]

13. Oh but

the Brady campaign, the mayors against gun violence, Josh Sugarman, etal are paragons of honesty. Only outsiders looking in believe that. The true dishonesty comes from the repugs who are leading the gun control movement in this country.

[aikoaiko]

81. you say that, but then post a distortion filled article

:shrug:

Are you the moral equivalent to the NRA?

[jpak]

26. fuck the NRA

and the GOP too

yup

[pipoman]

100. Fine,

as long as you realize that they are 2 completely separate bodies...to the point of the NRA-ILA endorsing AND donating to the campaigns of Democratic candidates.

[Euromutt]

139. You mean the NRA-PVF, not the ILA

The Political Victory Fund is the sub-organization that rates political candidates on their records on gun rights, and endorses selected ones. The Institute for Legislative Action is concerned with proposed pieces of legislation rather than with candidates for office.

[michreject]

57. If you're going to link to something they said

link to it, not some 2nd or 3rd party hearsay site.

[marmar]

61. A "hearsay" site that uses a direct quote....Is your position that he didn't actually say that?

Firedoglake was just crafting direct quotes out of whole cloth and risking a lawsuit? :wtf:

[michreject]

63. Link to the direct quote

The quote from the NRA site would be good enough.

I don't like to be put in a position of defending them. I shoot competitively and am required to belong to the NRA to join the gun clubs I belong to.

I've heard from many anti Obama gun owners that he was going to take the guns away. They were faning the flame. You're doing the same thing.

[marmar]

66. I posted an article on DU....How exactly that equates to "fanning the flames" mystifies me.

nt

[michreject]

67. You're using the same BS meme

That the anti Obama klan uses. It's wrong for them and it's wrong for you.

[marmar]

69. I posted an article. I didn't write it.....It's not that obtuse a concept.

But if you want to say I'm using the "same BS meme," so be it.

[michreject]

73. You posted it here. You own it

Problem is that none of it is true.

Concealed carry is legal in over 30 states and it hasn't been a problem. Minnesota is the only state where you can legally drink while carrying a gun but the legal threshold is really low. I think it's .02. A single glass of wine or one beer at dinner.

[Euromutt]

138. Minnesota's not the only state

It's illegal in Washington to carry in any establishment declared by the state Liquor Control Board to be off-limits to persons under 21, and it's illegal to be legally "under the influence" while in possession of a firearm off your own property, but the law says nothing about having a drink or two with your meal while carrying; just stay under .08% BAC.

[SteveM]

170. Check the Democratic Platform. Check Obama's record...

I don't know what you are asking, "So, fucking please with the defense of that organization," but I will ask you this:

When will YOU stop supporting gun-control since it is undeniably the very thing which empowers and enriches the NRA? Do you have any intention? Or are you just on a keyboard crusade, no matter what the cost to liberals and progressives in the real world?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

164. Wrong comparison. The right comparison is NRA (D) donations vs. NRA (R) donations. -nt

[X_Digger]

165. Necro-thread zombie, eyaaaah!!!!!

[jazzhound]

154. Support poorly crafted gun "control", support the GOP.

Fixed.

[SteveM]

169. Support gun-control, support the NRA, support the GOP. Some fools. nt

[Junkdrawer]

3. Drunks with guns. What could go wrong?

:shrug:

[pipoman]

9. Problem is, there are no groups or politicians

I am aware of who is advocating any such thing. Please post a link to any legislation which allows for the CCW holder to drink while carrying a gun.

42 states have passed CCW, these laws allow people who have a permit to carry to be able to carry into restaurants which do not post a sign saying no CCW. Would you rather these people leave their guns in their cars unattended?

[baldguy]

71. So, you support severe penalties for people who get drunk while carrying concealed firearms?

Because the NRA doesn't.

[X_Digger]

76. Got a cite for that? n/t

[baldguy]

79. You need a footnote for someone to voice their own opinion?

What is it about conservatives that makes them require an outside authority to validate their ideas?

[X_Digger]

86. Thanks for admitting it's opinion, not fact. n/t

[baldguy]

96. That's what I'm waiting for: his opinion. But I haven't seen it yet.

Seems the NRA supporters here are reluctant to go against them to punish drunks with guns.

[X_Digger]

97. I'm not him, but..

I do. And from previous posts of his, I'd hazard a guess that he does as well.

[PavePusher]

128. Nice tap dance. n/t

[PavePusher]

124. What is it about some people of ALL political bents...

that they think they can make claims without evidence and assume they are debating?

Where's the evidence?

[pipoman]

98. I absolutely support severe penalties

for people who unlawfully get drunk while carrying concealed.

Now show me your evidence that the NRA does not.

[PavePusher]

123. Got proof?

Or are you merely making wild-ass assertions?

[AlinPA]

135. Technical question: if a bar has a sign saying "No CCW and No guns" can a

person with a CCW permit go in if they don't drink in there? I guess I'm really asking if the law to allow CCW holders and other armed people into bars trumps the bars' signs.

[X_Digger]

136. Never seen that be the case.

In all states that I've looked at, private property rights trump concealed carry.

Some states have very strict requirements about the language the sign has to have to be enforceable (TX's 30.06 comes to mind), but most just have to have what's commonly called a 'gunbusters' sign (a picture of a gun with a circle / slash through it) or equivalent.

[GreenStormCloud]

146. Depends on the state, and the situation.

In Texas you can't take a gun into a place that makes more than 51% of their income from onsite consumption of drinks. Other places, have to post a no-guns sign if they want to ban guns. Only a few do that. For it to have legal effect, the sign has to meet some very specific requirements. If the sign doesn't meet those requirements, then it has no legal standing. Since they have no legal standing, and since my gun is concealed, I usually ignore those signs.

[freebrew]

151. Pretty assholish of you, eh?

I mean, the proprietor doesn't want guns in his place and you're using a minor point of law to ignore him?

I don't care if you are for or against guns. I don't care if you go into the woods drunk.

But if I tell you I don't want guns in my place, I mean it. Whether or not my sign meets certain standards or not.

The owner should be in his rights to ask you to leave.

I don't understand taking guns into bars as that was made illegal well before there was any thought of 'gun-control', for a very good reason.

[X_Digger]

152. Actually, in TX, it's a tacit nod in many cases.

One of my shooting buddies is a restaurant manager. He and the owner know that their 'gunbusters' signs have no force of law, and both carry in the restaurant.

The sign is there as a political nod to the ninnies who think it's all that's needed, and to appease the corporate chain.

[friendly_iconoclast]

153. The thing is, sometimes the signs are *deliberately* non-conforming.

The owner posts them to soothe the nerves of the delicate flowers who don't like guns, while those cognizant of the
applicable law carry legally. Crooks, of course, will ignore any sign.

If you *really* don't want guns in your place, you need to post a conforming sign saying so.

It's not difficult. Your local Kinkos or office supply big box can print one for you.

[GreenStormCloud]

155. Then it is up to you to comply with the law. I comply with the law, why can't you?

Do you think that criminals carrying illegally will obey your sign?

My guns are concealed. You will never know that I am carrying.

I don't go into bars. They aren't part of my lifestyle.

[proteus_lives]

88. So the guns weren't already there?

Where are the bloodbaths?

:shrug:

[KharmaTrain]

4. How The GOOP Should Decide Their Primaries

Since they looooooooove their guns and the right to carry them loaded into bars and churches, why not have them settle their primaries in the "honorable" way. Get McCain and Heyworthless or Rand Paul and whomever the loser is that's running against him...give them long-handled revolvers, 10 steps and may the "best" man win. Surely Faux will cover it...brought you to by "cash for gold".

:rofl:

[baldguy]

72. Thin the herd.

:applause:

[PavePusher]

125. So you encourage homicide...?

How Progressive of you.

[pipoman]

5. Somebody....anybody

post a link to anything the NRA or any other pro 2nd amendment group is saying or doing which supports this completely false (to the point of a blatant lie) statement...

The law does not permit gun holders to consume alcohol, though the gun lobby is working to get that changed.

[baldguy]

74. If the weapon is concealed, how's the server or bar owner to know?

[pipoman]

99. Why does he need to?

He doesn't keep track of who is driving, yet DUI is illegal. Further, how does he know now if someone is illegally carrying concealed?

[friendly_iconoclast]

157. I notice no reply to the actual question you asked. Very telling n/t

[pipoman]

160. Yep, seems there are many here

who find it easier to believe lies than the truth...same s$*t, different day...

[TheCowsCameHome]

7. What a wonderful combination.

Weapons and alcohol.

It's a winner.

[pipoman]

11. Drink the Koolaid...n/t

[TheCowsCameHome]

16. At least it's not a potentially deadly mix....n/t

[pipoman]

17. Gun thefts out of cars outside of Applebys could be...

[TheCowsCameHome]

20. Then leave it at home.....

.....where it's safe.

[pipoman]

101. 47 states allow concealed carry

that bus has already left the terminal.

[PavePusher]

126. I'll take my peaceful, legal Civil Rights into public with me...

Thank you very much.

[GreenStormCloud]

161. Then I won't have it available if I need it.

My wife is alive because she had her concealed gun on her when crime came calling. Criminal thug ran away, like real fast.

[Hubert Flottz]

15. BANG!

Q. Why do you shoot the guy?
A. When I say cold beer I mean COLD BEER!

[X_Digger]

21. Doesn't seem to be a problem in these other states..

[slackmaster]

24. HEY! No fair introducing actual facts into an AlterNet appeal-to-scorn filled rant

Real freedom scares the crap out of authoritarians of all stripes.

[Pholus]

27. Hey again slack.

So why are guns "Real freedom" to you?

[Pholus]

28. I want to follow up on that....

See, I think I have "Real Freedom" (TM) but it doesn't involve toting around firepower. I think I must be missing something. What does carrying a gun on my person give me at all times in the Freeeeeeedooooooom!!!!!!! department?

[slackmaster]

33. Your freedom is your choice to carry a firearm or not to carry one

It's pretty simple.

[Pholus]

Until you decide to use your firearm to coerce me.

I think you are the one with authoritarian issues. You don't want others telling you what to do, but you personally seem to enjoy the concept of negotiating life from a position of coercion.

[slackmaster]

49. I think you are projecting your fears about what you would do if you had a gun

...you personally seem to enjoy the concept of negotiating life from a position of coercion.

You fail at mind-reading over the Interwebz.

[Pholus]

53. As did you, slack.

Honestly. You started the projection stuff.

Let's start again. What DU topics that are NOT Guns interest you?

[proteus_lives]

90. "Until you decide to use your firearm to coerce me."

Someone may vote for a politician you oppose.

You want to take away voting rights?

[Pholus]

104. No, but I saw plenty of gun wielding teabaggers last summer

who seemed pretty content to let the rest of us know that in their opinions guns could replace democracy.

[proteus_lives]

106. Did they say that to you?

Because if they didn't, you're projecting your dislike and letting emotions cloud the issue.

The Black Panther party marched with their firearms. Were they trying to "replace democracy"?

I don't like the t-baggers for a lot of reasons but carrying guns isn't one of them.

You are ruled by fear and you're willing to take away the rights of your fellow citizens so that fear will go away.

[Pholus]

107. I am hardly ruled by fear.

If I were, I wouldn't leave my parents basement without a gun.

[proteus_lives]

113. Just what I thought.

You have nothing to say and no proof or logic to back-up your anti-rights position.

Thanks for letting us know!

[PavePusher]

129. Wrong. They were making they statement that they could not be forced to do things.

They made no threats to do the forcing. (Well, none I heard. If you have evidence otherwise, please provide it.)

[PavePusher]

127. Please quote the person claiming the gun is freedom...

It's the choice that is the freedom.

[Pholus]

30. Things I THINK I can do with guns (Please help me expand this list!)

Again, courtesy of http://rackjite.com/web/guns_nra.htm">Rackjite.com

1) ARGUE about guns.
2) BUY guns.
3) CLEAN guns.
4) CONCEAL guns.
5) DREAM about guns.
6) FONDLE guns.
7) KILL ANIMALS with guns.
8) KILL OTHERS with guns.
9) KILL THEMSELVES with guns.
10) LOAD guns.
11) OIL guns.
12) PUT TOGETHER guns.
13) READ about guns.
14) REPAIR guns.
15) SELL guns.
16) SEND AWAY for guns.
17) SHOOT guns.
18) SHOW guns.
19) SLEEP with guns.
20) TAKE APART guns.
21) TALK about guns.
22) THINK about guns.
23) THREATEN with guns.
24) TWIRL guns.
25) UNLOAD guns.

Please expand this list to explain what new topics add "Freedom"...

[slackmaster]

36. None of those things "add" freedom

Your ability to choose to engage in them or not to, is your freedom.

[Pholus]

39. Why do we need to have the freedom to engage in them in bars?

What freedom is given by that?

[slackmaster]

41. Why shouldn't we have that freedom?

X_Digger's reply #21 torpedoed any idea that allowing that particular freedom causes any harm.

What freedom is given by that?

None.

You seem to be unclear on the concept.

[Pholus]

43. Becuase some freedoms, like my desire to ROB the bar probably should be curtailed.

I am quite clear on the concept. Gun lovers want power. Period.

[slackmaster]

46. Your right to rob the bar has been curtailed through due process of law

I am quite clear on the concept. Gun lovers want power. Period.

I think you are projecting your fear that you might go crazy and rob a bar if you had a gun.

[Pholus]

51. Psychology is not your forte.

You speak of freedom but honestly only in a selfish, self-involved way.

We're talking about a damage dealing tool. The only reason you'd want to carry one everywhere is if you feel threatened or insecure. Your desire for guns everywhere is the ULTIMATE power trip.

[slackmaster]

55. You've made a whole slew of bad, unfounded assumptions about me

I don't carry a gun and have no desire to do so.

[Pholus]

59. So we do have something in common.

[X_Digger]

64. All freedom is personal at the core

Unfettered ability to choose. Choice being something an individual does.

What to speak about. What religion (if any) to practice. Which candidate to vote for. Who to associate with. Which books to read (knowing my choices will remain private.) Whether or not to own a firearm. Whether or not to carry it with me today. Whether or not to have a baby.

[Pholus]

68. The consequences of the choice has a societal effect though....

My religion is between me and the creator of my choice. Who, depending on who you talk to, may or may not exist.
My vote is part of a contract that the majority of votes decides who represents us.
My choice of associates can change without major consequences to others.
Despite what conservatives think, my choice of books does not endanger those around me.
Firearms are the point.
Abortion is the closest thing you came to. You're at a moral decision here that influences other people. I'm for the freedom of that choice, but only after an honest examination of your morals and how the choice will affect you and those around you.

So my point is, there are a lot of examples. With the exception of abortion, you're representing "choice" like it's "coke or pepsi" but guns are a bit more serious than that in that others will share the costs associated with your choice. Your desire to carry everywhere means that at some point, right or wrong, you may decide to use that weapon.

Yes, the courts will decide the rightness of your action later. Yes, it may even have been for a good reason. You may even be a completely trustworthy and competent individual. Then again, you may not.

There are some places where we should just all agree that guns are not allowed period. ICU wards? Churches? Elementary Schools?

Yup, bad people carry guns into those places. We should be able to recognize the baddies by their inability to follow the societal convention. The mere presence of a gun in one of these places should be sufficient cause to have a person evicted.

And vigilante fantasies aside, the inability to tell who is carrying a gun because they made a freedom loving choice from the person carrying the gun with ill intentions can also be a dangerous thing.

It's complicated, I'm sure you can think of a counterexample, but pardon me for not understanding the righteousness of your cause to carry into a bar.

[X_Digger]

75. I was addressing your 'selfish' comment..

Freedom is 'selfish' (ie, oriented toward oneself).

A free society (one that endorses maximum individual choice) has to consider very carefully when limiting the choices of an individual.

In constitutional law, those rights that have been deemed 'fundamental' (as the right protected by the second amendment likely will be in this summer's McDonald v Chicago SCOTUS case) must only be infringed (limited / regulated / disbarred) by measures that meet very specific criteria (google 'judicial review' and 'strict scrutiny', 'intermediate scrutiny', 'rational basis').

About the only place that I'd limit carrying of arms (by law) are courthouses and correctional / mental facilities. There are people there who have demonstrated a willingness to not abide by the rules set by society. They are also places where one knows that nobody other than those charged with our protection will actually be armed. Okay, and maybe places where the discharge itself could be dangerous to other than an intended recipient- fireworks factories, oil refineries, dynamite factories, etc- but those I assume would be by the private property owner, not the government.

[Pholus]

77. We have a different philosophy.

At least you're willing to admit that SOME limits are prudent. I'd imagine that you are considered a bit of a radical from the NRA side.

So, are guns a fashion choice or a social aid?

[X_Digger]

85. Depends on the gun.

Those that I choose to use for self-defense, I treat like the fire extinguisher and first aid kit I carry in my truck. A tool that I hope to never have to use, yet should the need arise, it will be the most effective tool in that situation. The only fashion involved is what kind of holster or carry device to use today, and what kind of cover garment to use if I choose an unenclosed holster that must be kept from casual view.

Those that I use for target shooting serve another purpose. Those that I use for hunting serve another.

Sounds like you'd be surprised, but most gun owners are generally fine with the gun restrictions that are currently in place, even NRA members. I don't know anyone who claims that no limits are acceptable. What I think is happenning is that there's a push to 'flatten' / standardize concealed carry laws that used to vary widely by state. In regards to the OP's article, a majority of states allow a concealed carry licensee to carry in an establishment that serves alcohol, as long as they do not drink. The reasoning goes, this hasn't been a problem in the other 30 states that allow this, why should this state be any different?

eta: For why I would carry in a bar? I don't drink, and I'm often either the designated driver, or the 'drunk dial' free cab service for my friends. I usually end up having to shepherd a stumbling drunk (or three *sigh*) back to my car through some rather rough parts of town.

[spin]

82. Here's a couple of examples of the selfish, self involved people you describe ..

OCOEE, Fla. --
New surveillance video was released on Wednesday that shows the dramatic lead-up to an accused robber being shot in Ocoee.

The video shows a man, while on a cell phone with 911, shooting and killing the suspect.

The shooting occurred just before midnight on Monday. The surveillance video shows a man, identified by police as Freddie Carson, 40, entering the Kangaroo gas station on Franklin Street in Ocoee, getting behind the counter and trying to rob the clerk.

Police said Carson tried to beat the clerk with a bottle. A customer, only identified as Chris, heard screaming from outside and rushed back into the store.

On the tape, Chris shot Carson and is heard telling a 911 dispatcher that he just shot someone.

"Yes you need paramedics. A man just broke in. I shot him. I have a gun," Chris told the dispatcher. "He was beating her over the counter and I shot him. I came in and I shot him. You need paramedics. Oh my God, I can’t believe I just shot somebody."

Chris said he was just trying to help his friend.

Authorities are still looking for two other men they believe were involved in the robbery.
http://www.wesh.com/news/18432456/detail.html

It’s time to thank a hero for stopping a suspected bank robber. The man stepped up to help protect his city.

“It’s up to us as citizens to say hey, enough’s enough,” said Michael Farrow. “We can help out.”

At 10:00 a.m. Monday, a man is accused of passing a note to a teller at the National City Bank on Woodward, and then grabbing the cash and running out the door.

Good Samartian Michael Farrow saw him running down the street and decided to get involved.

Farrow has a CCW and was carrying a gun when he told the man to stop and get down.

“He actually thought I was a police officer at the time,” he said.

Police arrived seconds later, taking 49-year-old Robert Lee Chandler into custody. He is a parolee, who police say has an extensive criminal history. The suspect will face charges.

***snip***

In exchange for a job well done, Police Chief Warren Evans gave Farrow and his sons a certificate of appreciate, thanking them for doing the right thing and helping keep Detroiters safe.

Detroit Police tell us that this suspect has already served time for bank robbery, and they are very happy to have him off the streets.
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/news/good-samaritan-with-ccw-stops-bank-robbery-suspect-in-detroit-with-video/?right=news

Forest Grove, Oregon concealed carry permit holder reportedly used his handgun to stop a trio of drunken attackers.

Police say that the 55 year old man was walking his dog at about 12:30 AM, when three drunken young men approached, insulted him, and began to make threats of violence. Fearing for his safety, the man reportedly drew his .38 caliber handgun, for which he had a valid concealed carry permit, and instructed the drunken men to leave him alone. One of the assailants reportedly told the man that he didn't believe the gun was loaded and then attacked, biting the man and putting him into a sleeper hold. Feeling that he was about to lose consciousness from strangulation, the concealed carry permit holder is said to have fired a shot in self defense, which missed the attackers but caused them to flee. Police, who had received multiple 911 calls about the attack, responded to the scene and apprehended a suspect who was reportedly identified as Michael W. Ryan III, who was charged with assault, strangulation, and disorderly conduct and booked into the county jail. The concealed carry permit holder was treated for minor injuries from the attack.

Once again, concealed carry has allowed a law abiding person who was going about their peaceful business to defend themselves from unprovoked and violent attack. Had this man not been armed, he could have been seriously harmed or killed. Instead, this man wisely chose to exercise his right to carry a gun for self defense, and as a result was able to defend himself.

http://www.wesh.com/news/18432456/detail.html

Police today said a customer fatally shot a would-be robber Monday evening at a busy Walgreens Pharmacy at 6101 Northwest Radial Highway.

Investigators believe that two masked men entered the Walgreen's about 8:50 p.m., one armed with a short shotgun, said Officer Jacob Bettin, a police spokesman.

Police were not releasing the dead man's name until relatives could be notified.

The armed suspect leveled the gun at customers, police said. One of the customers at the register, who has a permit to carry a gun, drew a handgun from the waistband of his pants and fired at the gunman, hitting him several times, Bettin said.

The wounded man fled, but then collapsed on the north side of the store. He was taken to Creighton University Medical Center, where he died.

The second suspect was held in the store by the same customer until officers arrived. That 17-year-old was booked into the Douglas County Youth Center on suspicion of robbery and using a weapon to commit a felony, police said.
http://omaha.com/article/20100426/NEWS97/100429632#customer-shoots-would-be-robber

[Pholus]

108. Yea for them. Here are a couple of the opposite examples.

CCW permit holders shoot it out on April 14, 2010: link

A'hole at bar personal protection gun permit with pulls gun and threatens fellow patrons on March 1, 2010 http://www.idsnews.com/news/NewStoryPrint.aspx?id=74136">link

But, but, but.... I though CCW people were SOOOOOOOOO trustworthy!!!!

[spin]

114. While they are not angels they rarely misuse their firearms ...

Florida publishes a Month Summary Report on concealed carry which can be viewed at:

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html

This report covers a 22 year time frame between October 1, 1987 to April 30, 2010. During this period 1,766,068 concealed weapons permits were issued and currently 718,270 are valid. Only 167 licenses have been revoked for a crime committed with a firearm.

Texas also publishes a report at:

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/convrates.htm

This report compares "the number of Concealed Handgun License (CHL) holders with convictions vs. the entire TX population with convictions."

You might find it interesting to take the time to look at some statistics.

[X_Digger]

115. Here, take a peek..

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/ConvictionRatesReport2006.pdf

In Texas, CHL holders are between 18 - 110x less likely to commit a particular crime.

[pipoman]

134. Really?

The only reason you'd want to carry one everywhere is if you feel threatened or insecure.

Really? Does the same go for carrying a spare tire or tool box in your car? How about a fire extinguisher? What about CO2 detectors in your house? Locks on the doors? Smoke detectors? Fire insurance? You do know that your chances of being a victim of violent crime is more than twice that of your house burning down, no?

[spin]

54. You don't need a license to carry a firearm to rob a bar ...

because if you do so you are a criminal and criminals don't obey laws. They carry firearms illegally.

[Pholus]

56. Once you've finally gotten rid of what licensing there is

How will you tell the criminal from the law-abiding citizen?

[X_Digger]

65. By their actions.

Everyone driving down the street could be a felon with a warrant for their arrest outstanding.

Yet if their actions don't merit a stop by the police, the police aren't allowed to stop them to check whether or not the driver is a wanted felon.

[Pholus]

70. Cars have license plates.

So should gun owners.

[X_Digger]

78. Yet you didn't respond to the core point..

In all but three states that don't require them, and two states that don't have them, a license is required to carry a concealed firearm.

Or are you suggesting one should have to wear some kind of mark that lets others know they are licensed to do so?

How about a scarlet 'I' on those who've chosen to follow the Islamic faith?

Or a scarlet 'P' on those who've chosen to protest our continuing war-for-oil imbroglios?

[Pholus]

111. Actually, cars ARE the core point.

Yeah, I think so. Licenses for guns are fairly toothless thanks to the NRA. But let's do the car analogy. Owners have licenses, and cars have license plates -- so should guns. RFID tags in all guns, which must be registered (just like cars). Owners must carry a license when operating one and must provide proof of insurance to indemnify them against damage they cause when they bust out a can of whoop ass they shouldn't have and somebody's kids are suddenly parentless. If you don't use the insurance, you get a discount after a few years. See, I can be fair.

[X_Digger]

118. Licenses are toothless? Eh?

Do you get an FBI background check when you apply for a driver's license? Are your fingerprints ran through the FBI database?

cars have license plates -- so should guns.

Guns already have serial numbers- unique identification devices.

Owners must carry a license when operating one

As I mentioned in the previous post, most states require licensing of concealed carriers.

and must provide proof of insurance to indemnify them against damage they cause when they bust out a can of whoop ass they shouldn't have and somebody's kids are suddenly parentless.

Considering that there are some 80m gun owners, and ~375k gun crimes in the US each year, that means that if every crime were perpetrated by a different gun owner (which we know is false), that's still less than half of one percent of all owners. (1 in 213 chance.)

Compare to cars, where your chance of being in any kind of accident are 1 in 10 each year, chances of a serious or fatal accident are 1 in 72 each year. (1 in 4 in your lifetime for serious or fatal.)

There are roughly 10,000 gun homicides per year. So even if we assumed that all 10,000 of them resulted in your 'parentless' scenario (which is patently stupid, since the majority of gun homicide victims are young, urban, black males) that'd still be only a 1 in 8,000 chance.

Why do you want to prop up the insurance industry for a 1 in 8,000 chance? Or is that a way to just make guns more expensive for your average joe, eh? Screw the poor, they should move if they live in a bad neighborhood and need to protect themselves.

[one-eyed fat man]

162. Car registration

You only have to register your car if you plan on using it on public highways. There are tens of thousands of farm and ranch vehicles that were never titled and never registered with anyone, ever!

Will your version of "gun registration" allow me to carry my gun in public in all 50 states like my car registration lets me drive my car on all public highways all 50 states? No, I don't think that's what you're advocating. But if you support making every jurisdiction recognize my Kentucky CCW then perhaps I would reconsider.

The law here allows people who are carrying concealed to carry in restaurants that serve alcohol, but not to drink. So is that guy over at the next table at Applebee's drinking the iced tea the designated driver or the guy with a CCW?

Are your panties all in a twist because YOU don't know the answer to that question?

[spin]

83. The criminal will commit crime, often violent ...

the law-abiding citizen with a CCW will not. The criminal will more than likely have a long rap sheet. The citizen with a CCW will not.

Not real complicated.

[Pholus]

103. So instead of the scarlet P or T

Gun owners wear a rap sheet so the rest of us can tell which ones we can trust?

[spin]

109. If the person is licensed to carry concealed ...

he has had a background check.

[X_Digger]

119. How about we tattoo felons so we know which ones we can trust?

You know, tattoo their crime on their foreheads, so we'll know what to watch out for..

:sarcasm:

[PavePusher]

132. Why don't you go to Vermont, Alaska, Wisconson or...

later this summer, Arizona, and find out?

[friendly_iconoclast]

158. Because that would be empirical evidence, and we can't be having any of that.

It harshes the mellow for some.

[PavePusher]

131. The freedom to better resist those who would use force against us. n/t

[slackmaster]

31. Guns are objects

Freedom is the availability of choices.

[Pholus]

35. What KIND of choices?

Are you talking about the availability of choices as to model/caliber.

Or are you talking about freedom of action in society?

[slackmaster]

37. All choices

What's so hard to understand about that?

Or are you talking about freedom of action in society?

In "society" or in the privacy of your own home. Whatever you choose.

[Pholus]

42. Because my interpretation of your freedom

is that you want the freedom to decide who lives and who dies in your presence. Is that it?

[slackmaster]

44. You really don't have a clue about what freedom is

Enjoy your stay on DU.

[Pholus]

47. You've been here long enough to know what cluelessness is about.

[slackmaster]

50. I've seen plenty of ankle-biters come and go from these forums

:hi:

[Pholus]

52. Yes, because single minded resolve about guns is what you've got.

Period.

[slackmaster]

58. My single-minded resolve is about individual liberty and freedom of choice

I support the right to keep and bear arms for EXACTLY the same reasons I support abortion rights and same-sex marriage.

[Pholus]

60. You win!

You actually DO have some non-gun things to support then. Thank you!

I've only ever seen you post about guns.

But you're right. I still don't see why guns add freedom. Are the a fashion accessory or a social aid?

[proteus_lives]

92. They're a choice.

You know, "choice". That word you and the rest of the authoritarians despise.

[Pholus]

112. You want to hurl labels, fine.

I'll accept an authoritarian label because frankly, when I hear you shoot of your mouth that way I know for a FACT that you can't be trusted with a gun.

There. You get it your way. Freedom loving insecure gun toter vs. authoritarian. Happy?

[proteus_lives]

89. You and your facts! The antis hate facts!

You're only going to make them run away from the conversation!

:rofl:

[S_B_Jackson]

116. Oops! Looks like OpenCarry.org needs to update their map...

Virginia should be green. :D

[X_Digger]

120. I noticed that, too.

You'd think they'd be changing that pdq.. make it FLASH green or something :)

[Pholus]

22. Rackjite said it best! (The NRA Song)

And he wrote it BEFORE the current insanity hit:
------------------------------------------------

The NRA Song (Rackjite.com )

Guns are neat, Guns are sweet
Guns the tool, what makes you cool.
Guns are fine, Guns are mine
Guns are things, that Jesus brings!

Guns for loonies, Guns for cons
Guns for Moonies, Guns for moms!

Guns are fun for everyone, buy them up by the ton.
Guns for me, Guns for you, Guns for nuts and children too!
Guns at home, Guns at work, Guns at play, Guns berserk!

Tons and tons of great big Guns,
Are tons and tons of great big fun!

I’ve got Guns up my nose ‘tween my ears and by my toes.
I’m no fool, I’m so cool, I take Guns to my school.
I take Guns in my car, to the store and to the bar.
I got Guns in a drawer, in my pocket and on the floor.
I got Guns on the wall, behind the toilet and in the hall.

I got guns in my bed, one is growing from my head!
Get a Gun and get it fast, Gun-Gun shoot-shoot is a blast!

[PavePusher]

133. Your insinuation and innuendo is neither needed or desired.

But thanks for demonstrating your bigotry.

[Toots]

23. "This line of reasoning borders on lunacy."

Duhhhhh

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[marmar]

29. Ahhh, it took a while, but clearly the Bat Signal got up into the air.....

..... I see the gun club has arrived.

[X_Digger]

32. Poor marmar..

.. sad when you post a gun topic outside the guns forum and can't keep it all to yourself?

*sniff*

Here, have a cookie.

[marmar]

34. Thanks for the cookie.....but hold the B.S. next time.

nt

[friendly_iconoclast]

149. "Is a little blind faith too much to ask?" Reverend Lovejoy, is that you?

Darn those people- bringing facts and verifiable evidence into this!

[spin]

40. Armed with facts not emotion...

If all these states allow carry in restaurants that serve alcohol why don't we read stories everyday about drunken shootouts at restaurants?

Could it be because they just don't happen?

[kctim]

48. Yeah

Makes it hard to argue fearful opinion as truth when those 'dumb rednecks' show up and present actual facts.

[aikoaiko]

84. Poor marmar -- only likes it when people agree with marmar

The "bat signal", to use your phrase, is your reposting of a fear mongering anti-rkba article.

[proteus_lives]

93. I guess they feel they have an obligation.

When the anti-choice/rights brigade is on the march....

[AtheistCrusader]

163. I see you without a serious counter-point to the states that already allow this

and the misleading statements by thinkprogress that the 'gun lobby' wants to allow people to drink as well, while carrying.

[-..__...]

38. Strong-arm?

Like the way the Brady Campaign has been attempting to "strong-arm" Starbucks and other establishments (despite it being legal in certain states), into prohibiting open carry of firearms?... Puh-leeze!

There's a reason I'm a long time NRA member, and that is to advance our 2nd amendment rights, defeat proposed gun control legislation and to overturn existing legislation.

If in the process it causes the anti-RKBA faithful, anti-RKBA organizations to have a cerebral meltdown... so much the better.

People can piss and moan about it with all the bug-eyed drool they like ("they support the GOP"... "they want to arm terrorists"...
"they want to arm people with mental disorders"... etc, etc and on and on).

Don't like the NRA? Want them to go away? Want them to stop supporting the GOP?

Then stop with the bull shit gun control agenda.

Until that happens... then the NRA will continue to have my full support.

[jazzhound]

137. "Don't like the NRA? Want them to go away?

Want them to stop supporting the GOP? Then stop with the bull shit gun control agenda."

Isn't it painful to listen to the pro-control folks bitching about the NRA when it's their bullsh*t that empowers them the most?!

[old mark]

45. Democratic pols seen to have a very hard time shutting up about anti-gun stuff.

ALL of the PA Democratic candidates for governor in the primary have advocated anti-gun policies in their campaign material. ALl of them will lose votes because of it. This issue is an automatic gain for the GOP candidates, no matter how stupid or even crooked they are, yet Dems can't seen to resist advocating new laws that apply to law abiding gun owners, harassing us all to no real purpose. Many of these proposed laws are illegal re:our state constitution, yet they can not seem to resist crowing about how they will reduce "gun violence" etc...(Violent crime is already the lowest in almost 30 years)
It is pure political bullshit rhetoric, and plays into the NRA's hands - stoking the fear of the left wing gun confiscation that the GOP's right wing has been selling for a generation and that works so effectively against Democrats in every state.


mark

[michreject]

62. You could always carry a gun into a bar in VA.

Had to be open carry.

You got a valid link to this allegation?

The law does not permit gun holders to consume alcohol, though the gun lobby is working to get that changed.

[aikoaiko]

80. Wow, alternet publishes another distortion filled fear mongering anti-gun article.

Color me surprised.

Marmar, when you post this type of article, are you in support of the contents or holding it up for deserved ridicule?

[WolverineDG]

94. Even in Texas, we don't allow guns in bars

Is the NRA for legalizing marijuana, because it sounds like they're on locoweed.

dg

[X_Digger]

95. The alternet article is actually wrong..

The TN, GA measures apply to restaurants (just like TX allows).

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2009/apr/06/house-passes-bill-allow-guns-restaurants/

As approved by the House, the bill would:

Prohibit guns in restaurants that are age-restricted under the Tennessee law that bans smoking in restaurants -- that is, those restaurants that don't allow minors to enter at any time because patrons are allowed to smoke inside. The theory behind this provision is that such restaurants are more "bar" than restaurant.

http://www.georgiapacking.org/GaCode/?title=16&chapter=11§ion=127

a) Except as provided in Code Section 16-11-127.1, a person shall be guilty of a misdemeanor when he or she carries to or while at a public gathering any explosive compound, firearm, or knife designed for the purpose of offense and defense.

(b) For the purpose of this Code section, "public gathering" shall include, but shall not be limited to, athletic or sporting events, churches or church functions, political rallies or functions, publicly owned or operated buildings, or establishments at which alcoholic beverages are sold for consumption on the premises and which derive less than 50 percent of their total annual gross food and beverage sales from the sale of prepared meals or food.

[sl8]

102. The GA statute that you quoted from is current law.

The bill that's pending, Georgia SB 308, would strike that portion and add this:

16-11-127
<...>
(b) A person shall be guilty of carrying a weapon or long gun in an unauthorized location and punished as for a misdemeanor when he or she carries a weapon or long gun while:

<...>

(6) In a bar, unless the owner of the bar permits the carrying of weapons or long guns by license holders;

<...>
http://www.legis.ga.gov/legis/2009_10/versions/sb308_SB308_APP_23.htm

[X_Digger]

105. doh, copy paste strikes again. n/t

[Edweird]

110. Ok, I'm a totally pro 2nd amendment guy, but this is a bit too much even for me.

I would support a bill that allowed employees to carry - as long as they are not drinking - as bars and nightclubs handle large sums of cash. At one bar I used to manage we would to lock ours up in the safe in the office while open, but as soon as we closed we were armed. So, otherwise qualified non-drinking employees? Ok.

Customers? Not so much.

[X_Digger]

121. How much cash?

I'd love to get your opinion in this thread I started on a similar subject..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=316554&mesg_id=316554

[Pavulon]

130. Oh holy christ, i cant carry into tgi fridays and eat?

this is some stupid reactionary bullshit. Pretty much every place serves booze. As long as I dont drink what does that have to do with me.

move on, find another issue. this one is done people. You would be better off arguing for blacks to go back to the back of the bus. You may win more votes there.

[GreenStormCloud]

140. It is nice that they admit that the NRA has strong arms.

They do the same to Democrats too.

[Walk away]

147. I lived in Santa Marta Colombia in the '80s. It was like the wild West...

and even there they made folks check there guns at door. This country is going down the tubes fast.

[spin]

148. Please explain why our violent crime rate is falling ...

while the number of firearms and the number of states allowing "shall issue" concealed carry is increasing.

[PavePusher]

159. Because Colombia is just like the U.S....

or something. Right?

[Euromutt]

156. "The gun lobby is working to get that changed"

Nice one-sided reading of the introduced legislation there. Anyone who's paid attention to the threads going by in this forum knows that the bill proposing that private citizens carrying guns be allowed to get blotto was one of two bills introduced by the same legislator, the other one making it illegal for anyone including off-duty cops to get blotto while carrying.

Seems perfectly reasonable to me either way: either we acknowledge that the fact that cops can get stonkered while carrying off-duty means that combining guns and alcohol does not ipso facto create a risk of life-endangering negligent discharges; or we take as axiomatic the notion that guns and booze are a lethal combination, and ban cops from carrying while getting stonkered on- or off-duty (and nail them to the wall if they do).

Now, speaking as someone who's gotten well oiled on a couple of "stand downs" while carrying an Uzi loaded with blanks, and not experienced or suffered an ND, inebriation of myself and my fellow soldiers notwithstanding, I'm far from convinced that mixing alcohol and firearms inevitably spells disaster. However, I'm willing to err on the side of caution. But by that same token, I don't see why off-duty cops can be trusted to carry firearms while getting hammered. Cops are the same species as the rest of us, and it's not like booze can't affect their judgment. So either we ban everybody from carrying while "under the influence" or we ban nobody. Take your pick.