Guns solving more problems locally.

[sharesunited]

This is what happens when guns and ammunition are allowed to proliferate in society.


3 dead in murder suicide
http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/05/3-shot-dead-on-southwest-side.html


3 bodies found in car
http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/05/3-bodies-found-in-car-on-southwest-side.html

[proteus_lives]

1. "Guns solving more problems locally"

BREAKING NEWS! The firearms I own still, I repeat still, haven't killed anyone!

THIS JUST IN! Millions of Americans report the same!

Do you realize your fail now?

BTW, the fact that your "examples" are from gun-control Chicago just make your failure complete.

[sharesunited]

3. A single, seamless gun-prohibited zone from sea to shining sea is required.

As it stands, guns leak in from outside those jurisdictions which are trying to do the right thing.

[shadowrider]

4. - Snort -

My daily chuckle, courtesy of SU.

[proteus_lives]

5. You just get better and better.

Don't stop.

This one the funniest things I've seen on DU. :rofl:

But seriously, I wonder if you are even aware of you're willing to give-up. I wonder if you even care. That's the sad part.

[shadowrider]

6. He not aware because he's not giving anything up. Everyone else is, not him

[shadowrider]

7. It's almost as funny

As people on this forum who insist Obama isn't anti-gun.

[slackmaster]

9. Except, of course, for guns in the hands of police and other government employees

A police state.

[sharesunited]

11. You're planning to go to war with the police? And the difference between you and Koresh is what?

[shadowrider]

12. Those goalposts heavy? You know, the ones you keep moving

You twist words, then get mad at HIM for what you said.

[sharesunited]

13. I'm not the one who insists that the public should have guns in order to fight the government.

I scoff at the notion, deride the suggestion, and will push back against anyone claiming to justify guns on such a ridiculous basis.

[shadowrider]

15. He never said "Fight the government", YOU did

He said it's a police state if only the "authorities" are armed, you know, police and stuff.

You've twisted his words and are now upset for something you said and attribute to him. Classic strawman.

[slackmaster]

31. I didn't say anything about fighting the government either, and I never have

Where did you get that idea?

[gorfle]

62. A question for sharesunited.

I'm not the one who insists that the public should have guns in order to fight the government.

I scoff at the notion, deride the suggestion, and will push back against anyone claiming to justify guns on such a ridiculous basis.

Do you believe that the government of the United States is the pinnacle of representative government and will, forevermore, have the interests of its people at heart?

[PavePusher]

19. Koresh attacked the police?

Ummm, I think you have that backwards...

[sharesunited]

26. Koresh resisted his lawful arresters with his own personal arsenal.

If you support his right to have a personal arsenal, then Koresh is your brother.

[shadowrider]

29. Koresh used his "arsenal" once he came under attack

to defend himself and others. Not complying isn't the same as resisting.

[sharesunited]

33. The reason he had an arsenal was the reason they were there in the first place.

[shadowrider]

36. Incorrect. They were there on child abuse (with no proof) charges

You lose.

[sharesunited]

42. Sure! That's why all the covers said ATF on them!

[Katya Mullethov]

55. You're both wrong

It was all just show business .

Operation Showtime .
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=%22operation+showtime%22+batf&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=c78e48b898b2787e

Perhaps a resident ,lurking, F Troop agent .........might have something to add .

[slackmaster]

30. No, I'm not planning to go to war with anyone

Where did you get that idea?

[PavePusher]

18. Ah. Those "jurisdictions" that have much lower crime rates?

I wonder why that is? :freak:

[rrneck]

48. Okay, I'll say it.

THE SAME WAY DRUGS LEAK IN ACROSS NATIONAL BORDERS

Do you think he heard that?

[aikoaiko]

58. I'm grateful that you post your opinion on guns and gun-owner rights.

There was a time when people with your position didn't express themselves because they knew such extremism hurt the general gun control cause. You're like the abortion banners who say "no abortion for any reason". You help make the pro-liberty position all that much more reasonable in comparison.

Carry on.

[HALO141]

60. Obviously!

'Cause prohibition was such a shining success in the case of alcohol, right?!?


Oh, and.... Narcotics.


Yep. Brilliant strategy

[madrchsod]

2. all in the same neighborhood......

the street gangs are the real terrorists in this country.

[slackmaster]

8. Chicago? Isn't that the city where it's almost impossible to legally own a handgun?

Gun control doesn't work.

[shadowrider]

10. Sure it does

See my sig line

[DonP]

32. Only a problem until Daley is allowed to annex Indiana, Michigan and a few other states

He can claim they are just a part of his O'Hare expansion and take them over, the way he did the village of Bensenville under eminent domain.

Then he can ban guns in all the other surrounding states, gradually working his way to Ohio, Virginia etc.

Just a matter of time until he solves the problem.

This morning his pet police superintendent Weiss said that the murder rate isn't really so bad, after the news reported 6 more murders this morning in gun free Chicago. According to "Run from the sound of gunfire Weiss", we are two full murders behind last year. Nothing to see here, move along and remember to vote for your aldercritter.

[RaleighNCDUer]

14. Don't worry about it.

It's just collateral damage.

[ZombieHorde]

16. Do you think those six people would be alive today if guns were illegal?

I am not so sure.

[sharesunited]

17. Illegal is a red herring. Scarce should be the objective.

[ZombieHorde]

20. Do you think those six people would be alive today if guns were scarce?

How would you make guns scarce?

[shadowrider]

21. You ain't been around this board much, have you

The answer he'll give is "Quit selling them and make those in existence collectibles".

Like setting a clock.

[sharesunited]

22. Obviously, by reversing those factors which presently make them abundant.

Plug the spewing gusher poisoning the environment.

Sound familiar?

[ZombieHorde]

24. Could you be more specific?

Plug the spewing gusher poisoning the environment.

Sound familiar?

Yes, and I always try to wear a condom.

[Riftaxe]

23. Why not make criminal behavior scarce?

It seems that goal would be more relevant to reducing overall crime in society, not just crimes of violence.

If your opposition to the RKBA is such a righteous one, then surely you can come up with the support required to repeal or modify the second amendment to limit gun ownership to the hands of those select groups and/or people you choose.

[sharesunited]

25. No, not repeal or modification. Proper intepretation by an enlightened judiciary is the way.

[shadowrider]

27. "Enlightened"

ROFL. You mean people who consider themselves smarter than everyone else and look down their nose while spouting their "knowledge".

Sheesh, I'm laughing so hard I don't know what to do.

[sharesunited]

34. Was the "Brown" Court more enlightened than the "Plessey" Court?

Separate but equal set this nation back by at least 60 years.

[ZombieHorde]

28. "Proper interpretation" and "enlightened judiciary" are both virtually meaningless phrases.

I say "virtually" because I believe the phrases mean, "An interpretation which conforms to my will by a judiciary who conforms to my will."

[sharesunited]

35. You must have no objective standard for what progress means, then.

Dred Scott or Roe v. Wade, it's all meaningless and the subject of personal bias, right?

[spin]

37. Do you feel that progress is castrating the Second Amendment? (n/t)

[shadowrider]

38. Was that a rhetorical question? n/t

[spin]

46. Yes, in the sense I really didn't expect a reply. (n/t)

[ZombieHorde]

39. And you accuse me of red herrings?! But I will play along...

Yes, I have no objective standard for progress, I only have subjective standards for progress.

Court cases and constitutional amendments are actually subject to popular bias, not personal bias.

For example: our society has generally accepted yelling "fire" in a theater is not protected speech according to the 1st Amendment, but this is not an objective interpretation, this is a subjective interpretation. Most of us accept this interpretation because it seems extremely reasonable, but "extremely reasonable" is subjective and it is a bias.

[sharesunited]

41. Maybe you're right!

I will side with racial equality, women's dominion over their bodies, and reducing to near zero the risk of bullets entering one's flesh and bones.

[ZombieHorde]

43. I am not arguing against opinions, I am simply calling opinions subjective. nt

[sharesunited]

45. You convinced me. Subjective, but not arbitrary.

You can call deed restrictions which prohibit sale of your home to certain racial minorities subjective.

Opposing them arises from a sense of justice, fairness, and morality.

[ZombieHorde]

57. Of course our sense of justice, fairness, and morality are also extremely subjective.

These things don't exist outside of our minds.

[one-eyed fat man]

56. Funny, you mention Dred Scott..............

as it happens, it looks like you and Mayor Daley agree totally with part of the reasoning for the ruling against Scott:

"It would give to persons of the negro race, who were recognised as citizens in any one State of the Union, the right to enter every other State whenever they pleased, singly or in companies, without pass or passport, and without obstruction, to sojourn there as long as they pleased, to go where they pleased at every hour of the day or night without molestation, unless they committed some violation of law for which a white man would be punished; and it would give them the full liberty of speech in public and in private upon all subjects upon which its own citizens might speak; to hold public meetings upon political affairs, and to keep and carry arms wherever they went. And all of this would be done in the face of the subject race of the same color, both free and slaves, and inevitably producing discontent and insubordination among them, and endangering the peace and safety of the State." -- Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393, 416-17, 449-51 (1857)

Oh, that's right, you and ol' Dick steadfastly deny the racist roots of gun control.

[Riftaxe]

53. interpreted by using modern definitions

or the standards those definitions meant in the 1700's?

say if someone pulls "well regulated" out of 5+ other government legal documents of the time, would you insist on your interpretation or the historical one?

[rrneck]

49. LOL!

Things are made scarce by making them illegal. Duh.

Trollin' trollin' trollin', keep that bullshit trollin'...

[benEzra]

50. Did making alcohol illegal in the early 20th century make it scarce?

Americans---and I'm not talking about violent criminals here---own roughly a third of a billion guns in this country. We collectively shoot several billion rounds a year in target shooting, competition, and training. And we *are* keeping them.

You can focus on fighting criminal misuse instead of lawful and responsible ownership, or you can keep preaching fundy fire and brimstone against gun owners and thereby continue your side's slide into irrelevance.

The biggest mistake the gun-control lobby in the USA ever made was to intentionally conflate the average gun owner with violent criminals.

[Euromutt]

61. I will once again cite Daniel Polsby (not that it'll help)

From his article "Firearm Costs, Firearm Benefits and the Limits of Knowledge," published in the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, vol. 86, no. 1, 1995 (http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/PolsbyFirearmCosts.htm ):

With respect to the firearms side of this problem, it cannot be emphasized too strongly that one is dealing with a demand-led rather than a supply-led phenomenon--young men demanding guns as a means of self defense and self-realization. These young men are not merely using guns because large numbers of them are floating around, as mayors and police chiefs insinuate when they tell reporters that "there are too many guns out there." Recognizing this problem as a demand-side situation predicts the limited usefulness (if not futility) of public policies that seek to "dry up" the supply of guns. The most ludicrous policies of this type are "turn-in-your-gun days" or rules that prohibit police departments from selling surplus weapons. But many kinds of regulatory interventions that place burdens on legal markets embrace the same faulty premise.
<...>
Of course gun runners will seek the least cost and most convenient source of supply, whatever it may be, legal markets, if available, but if they cannot deliver what is demanded, the turn to illegal markets, of smuggled guns or guns manufactured in cottage industry, is a simple operation. The acquisition behavior of illicit retail customers should be discouraged modestly at best by piling costs on gun runners. These customers are seeking to invest in capital plant for which there exists no ready substitutes. Licit buyers, on the other hand, usually are shopping for items of personal consumption, for which a number of obvious substitutes (e.g., archery; B-B guns; and for that matter, going to the movies) evidently exist. The implication of this situation, though usually ignored, is very important: the price sensitivity of firearms buyers will diminish as their motive for owning a firearm becomes more sinister. The price sensitivity of buyers will increase as their motive for owning a firearm becomes more innocuous.

The expectation that the sorts of market interventions described by Cook et al. would have a beneficial effect on the homicide rate embeds the assumption of monotonicity, that is, that there are constant returns (in the form of lowered homicide rates) to reductions in the number of firearms in private hands. Those who in any degree credit the possibility of Heinlein or Kleck effects operating, however, and who understand the implication of the distinction between "firearm as capital" and "firearm as toy," will regard this assumption as rather naive. Such students of the problem will consider the question of how firearms are distributed in society as much more important than how many there are. They will also reject as inherently counter-productive efforts to adopt policies that aim at reducing the number of arms in the hands of criminals by imposing regulatory costs in licit markets.

Emphases in bold mine.

According to various estimates, there are something in the order of 100 million privately owned handguns in the United States, whereas the number of violent crimes committed with firearms each year has been below 500,000 since 1999. Even if you could reduce the stock of handguns by 95%, there would still be enough handguns--assuming were diverted into the wrong hands--to commit over ten years' worth of violent crimes at present rates, even if each gun were only used once.

But even if you could eliminate the diversion of firearms from the legal market to the criminal circuit completely, the United States is not isolated from the rest of the world: four decades of the "War on Drugs" have not made illicit drugs any more scarce, including those that cannot be produced in the United States itself, like cocaine. Hell, even domestic meth production has been largely supplanted by mass production in Mexico, whence it is smuggled into the U.S. by the ton. Given that various other countries have arms manufacturing industries from which firearms and ammunition are diverted into the black market, there's no reason to assume some of those firearms wouldn't make their way to the U.S.

But this has all been explained to you dozens of times before, only to be met with denialism. I can only hope others reading this will understand the futility of your proposed course of action.

[one-eyed fat man]

40. Just normal Chicago.

Idiots who pretend the thug culture glorifying thug and gang behavior doesn't exist and has no bearing on what they see on their nightly news and in their daily papers.

They blame it on all the evil guns coming in from outside when it is the unmatched numbers of loser shitheads who control the city. An incorrigibly corrupt and cowardly city administration grounded in graft who control the top and incredibly vicious scum thugs who control the streets.

It might be out of fashion, but the good citizens of Northfield, Minnesota and Coffeyville, Kansas demonstrated definitively how to deal with a gang problem about a hundred years ago.

Chicago has been content with being in a hood's pocket since Alphonse Capone threw the Mayor down the steps of city hall.

[Katya Mullethov]

44. At first glance , I figured the OP was about this

http://dailyme.com/story/2010051600003448/sleeping-couch-detroit-girl-7-fatally.html

And then I realized it was posted from Chi-Town .

[one-eyed fat man]

47. A&E has it on film

http://www.realitytvworld.com/news/the-first-48-crew-filmed-detroit-raid-that-led-young-girl-death-10956.php

A&E was filming that raid for their show, "The First 48". The videotape shows the cop tossing the flash bang and shooting from outside.

Geoffrey Fieger -- an attorney for the family of the young girl who was killed -- who viewed the film stated:

"There is no question about what happened because it's in the videotape. It's not an accident. It's not a mistake. There was no altercation," he told The AP.

"Aiyana Jones was shot from outside on the porch. The videotape shows clearly the officer throwing through the window a stun grenade-type explosive and then within milliseconds of throwing that, firing a shot from outside the home."

"The videotape shows clearly that the assistant police chief and the officers on the scene are engaging in an intentional cover up of the events."

Detroit police department, where officers Walter Budzyn and Larry Nevers beat a skinny dope fiend to death with a flashlight. The Chicago way has made it across Lake Michigan.

[shadowrider]

52. But, but

Aren't the police the only ones many on this board trust with guns?

[rrneck]

51. Unrec for pointless propaganda. nt

[Pavulon]

54. Win the drug war first. Once I can no longer find any drugs

then move on. Good luck.

[jeepnstein]

59. Daley's got it figured out....

Three of those killed were inside so they don't count. He just cut his city's murder rate in half.

Let's move on to the next problem.