Calderon is correct - the lifting of the ban on assault weapons

[malaise]

coincides with the rise of violent crime with these weapons in Mexico - and I will add in Jamaica as well.



sp.

[spanone]

1. k&r

[PavePusher]

25. I'm impressed too...

Not a single shred of evidence, and yet you want to be taken seriously.

Massive Fail.

[BolivarianHero]

2. I'm impressed...

Not every day someone as conservative as Calderon as something sensible to say about the issues.


+1

[katzenjammers]

18. Not sensible. He's nuttier than a shithouse rat.

...

[rrneck]

3. Link? nt

[greencharlie]

4. fail.

this came up a couple years ago...

and most assault weapons in Mexico causing problems, AK-47's, etc... are "real life" military weapons manufactured in China or other places smuggled into Mexico through their Southern border...

Blaming the US for those weapons is a cop-out, fuck felipe.

Remember... the phrase "Assualt Weapons" is hyperbole in itself... but if you take the definition to mean "military weapons" then ZERO military weapons come in through the US border.

Did I mention... fuck felipe?

[spanone]

5. well, obviously you know more than the mexican president.....

[greencharlie]

7. felipe IS a tool, I probably DO know more. nt

[benEzra]

39. He certainly knows more about U.S. firearms law than the Mexican President does...

the 1994 "assault weapon" fraud banned no guns, its expiration legalized no guns, and most of the serious weapons the cartels are using are restricted to police/military/government in this country.

I suppose you aren't aware that all automatic weapons are as tightly controlled in the USA as howitzers, bombs, and shoulder fired missiles?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act

[TheWraith]

53. Actually, military weapons DO cross the US border to go to the cartels.

What they don't want to tell you though is that those are the weapons being sold to the Mexican military and police, stuff that civilians cannot own in the US, but which then gets stolen or sold to the cartels quick as Mercury. They had a photo awhile back of a major seizure of cartel weapons. Know what they were? US milspec M4 rifles in the SBR configuration with an underslung 40mm grenade launcher. And yeah, they had the grenades for them.

[PavePusher]

54. Butbutbutbut...

Anyone can get those at gunshows, or those evil dealers with nary a background check in sight...

Dontchyaknow?

[saigon68]

6. THIS POST IS FLAME BAIT

[greencharlie]

8. +1 nt

[onehandle]

36. This room is flamebait. nt

[Captain Hilts]

9. They also make their way from Virginia to Canada. nt

[rrneck]

10. Did they grow legs? nt

[krispos42]

11. Correlation does not mean causation

The banning of "assault weapons" also coincided with a sharp drop in homicide rates in the US. But that is not what is responsible for the drop in crime; it was the legalization of abortion in 1973.

[DainBramaged]

13. Of course not, gun advocates are always right, the rest of us are scum

You folks sond like the Republican party noise machine more and more lately. :puke:

[krispos42]

27. I blame color TV for the rise in murders in the 60's and 70's.

Millions of people fustrated to the breaking point by the awesome potential of color TV but not able to really exploit that potential.

It wasn't until the rise of cable in the 1980's that things plateaued, and finally when VCRs became really affordable in the late 80's and 90's (and video rental became widespread) that violent crime came down as the potential of color TV was more fully exploited.

The reason the development of the DVD, HDTV, Blu-Ray, and the TiVo hasn't lowered the violent crime rates more is that they are fuctional equivalents of the videocassette, SDTV, and the VCR.

[DainBramaged]

32. You aren't funny, stop trying.

[slackmaster]

33. Speak for yourself

Some of your comrades in forced disarmament are not scum.

[dkf]

12. Funny how it's all our fault.

Maybe if he got his act together and turned Mexico into a decent place to live there wouldn't be all that violence.

[Euromutt]

51. Well, in a way it *is*

After all, the cartels are getting most of their revenue, with which they fund their acquisition of weapons, from sales of illicit drugs in the U.S. If we would either stop using drugs, or (more realistically) legalize them and establish a supply chain that bypassed the Mexican cartels, they'd be out of business in fairly short order.

[russ1943]

14. And then there is this......

It's simple, easy to do and its illegal. San Antonio gang members have a new hobby: Turning rifles into automatic weapons.

Every week, San Antonio cops are seizing more and more of them on our city streets.
Every week, one of these weapons is seized here in San Antonio.

"We brought in 100 agents from around the country to help with gun trafficking along South Texas," added Mora. That formed the Gun Runner Impact T (G.R.I.T.). "They want the guns in Mexico to protect their trade," said Mora. "They are at war with each other, They can acquire guns easily from here."



http://www.kens5.com/home/A-deadly-hobby-Gang-members-making-their-own-automatic-machine-guns-93339609.html

[russ1943]

16. And there also is this.

The Mexican military has discovered a major training camp run by the notorious Zetas drug cartel and stocked with an arsenal of military weapons, including 140 semi automatic assault rifles and 10,000 rounds of ammunition—all of them believed to be purchased in the United States, U.S. law enforcement officials tell Declassified.
A senior U.S. law enforcement official, asking not to be identified talking about sensitive matters, tells Declassified there’s mounting evidence that the illegal trafficking of high-powered U.S. weapons into Mexico is continuing unimpeded and may actually be increasing, despite repeated statements by Obama administration officials (including Secretary of State Hillary Clinton during a March visit to Mexico City) that they are forcefully addressing the issue.
But by this year the time-to-crime figure had dropped to less than three years, and in recent months ATF has been tracing weapons seized in Mexico with time-to-crime numbers that in some cases are as low as weeks or even days, says the law enforcement official................... Although the rifle grenades and grenade launchers likely came from old military stocks in Guatemala or elsewhere in Central America, the official says, an initial inspection of the assault rifles’ markings suggests they all were purchased in the United States.
http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/declassified/archive/2010/05/17/is-the-flow-of-u-s-weapons-to-mexican-drug-cartels-increasing-under-obama.aspx

[DonP]

22. "semi automatic assault rifles" - really, tell us more

Which military force uses those semi automatic assault rifles?

Perhaps you can refer us to those military geniuses at Newsweak for details. They are so accurate with the rest of their reporting, perhaps they can explain the "markings" that indicate they were purchased in the US.

I'm still trying to figure out why, if the gang is so well armed, they bought grenades, grenade launchers and other weapons in South and Central America they didn't just buy real assault weapons there too. Or is it because that wouldn't make a good story line for Newsweak and their brain dead readers?

[Katya Mullethov]

26. These are semis

LEMMEESEEYERWORFACE ..HAAAAAAAAAH !



That's a lotta money right there , hell yeah they disappeared along with the grunt humpin it .

[X_Digger]

29. "military weapons, including 140 semi automatic assault rifles"

That's an oxymoron. Assault Rifles refers to full auto, yet these are semi-auto. No military uses the civilian semi-auto only version of a weapon.

[AtheistCrusader]

34. Oh no, not 10,000 rounds of ammunition. Shit, I must out-gun the mexican army by myself.

[X_Digger]

28. Riiiiight

If you pause and zoom in on the youtube 'search', and duplicate it, you'll see that the videos they're talking about are for _airsoft_

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqo9jM02GJ0

Of course we know that the ATF never ever gets these things wrong..

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2010/02/28/airsoft-gun-seizure-apparently-toys-can-be-real-guns/

[freebrew]

35. Seems too simple.

Legalize drugs and use the resulting over-force of cops to deal with the gangs.

There were no gangs like this when I was young, most kids stopped violent gangs in school.
Now, the powers that be protect the bullies and gangs. Both good and bad are expelled from school for fighting.
How the hell did we get in this mess?

[Euromutt]

52. Highly implausible

The ATF does not permit the manufacture or import of firearms for sale to private citizens that can be "readily converted" to fire on automatic. To modify a semi-auto-only AR or Kalashnikov variant, you have to modify the lower receiver, and replace the sear and bolt carrier at least (there might be more steps required, but I'm not sufficiently well informed on how to illegally modify firearms). The process is neither "simple" nor "easy to do." This piece reeks of bullshit.

[katzenjammers]

15. Odd how Calderon was a goofy rightwing asshole until he joined the anti-gun forces

who want to eviscerate OUR Second Amendment.

:eyes:

[X_Digger]

17. Anything to detract attention from his own government.

As though full auto arms and RPGs are coming from the US market.

Riiiiiiiiight.

[RamboLiberal]

19. This is how much friggin' money these gangs have

Maybe we ought to shutdown the drug trade for that is where they get the money for their guns from whatever source. And it is more than just he U.S. - Yep the drug war is working so well. Here's some guns the Mexican Army seized recently.

[RamboLiberal]

20. And How many of these fully auto weapons are the US Govt Supplying?

News reports and anti-violence organizations suggest that the US civilian firearms market is flooding Mexico with the weapons used by drug cartels and black marketeers to perpetrate violence. These firearms, we are told, are being purchased at gun shops and gun shows in the United States, and smuggled across the border into Mexico. Indeed, we are told that 90% of the firearms seized by the Mexican government and traced by the BATFE are found to have originated in the United States. Senator John Kerry recently told the Boston Globe that 1 of 4 weapons seized by the Mexican government are made available for tracing. Senator Kerry made this statement while he urged renewal of a federal US law banning civilian possession of “assault weapons” (various non-military semi-automatic firearms).

However, we are learning that many arms in the hands of Mexican drug cartels are military-grade automatic weapons, and that the numbers of cartel arms sourcing from the US civilian market are highly exaggerated.

What is being ignored is the fact that the United States government (via Departments of Defense and State) sells thousands of military and non-military firearms to foreign governments, including Mexico and Central and South American countries. The Small Arms Survey (SAS; Graduate Institute of International Studies, Geneva 2006; linked below) is highly informative.

The table below, compiled from the SAS, lists Latin American countries and the number of military rifles and machine guns, as well as non-military weapons, that the US government has sold to those nations during the 5-year period of 1998-2003.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ll5chfz1qFU/SdPG4ULtdaI/AAAAAAAAD9Q/ngVSS2Ekouw/s400/ScreenHunter_02+Apr.+01+15.54.jpg

http://www.examiner.com/x-1417-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m4d2-Do-US-government-arms-exports-play-a-part-in-arming-Mexican-cartels

Also wonder if any being stolen out of our U.S. military arsenals.

In June 2006 an incarcerated US Army soldier and active gang member identified 60 to 70 gang-affiliated military personnel in his unit allegedly involved in the theft and sale of military equipment and weapons. The solider reported that many of the military personnel in charge of ammunition and grenade distribution are sergeants who are active gang members.

A May 2006 interview with a former Marine and Gangster Disciple member incarcerated in Colorado detailed how easily soldiers-many of whom were gang members-stole military weapons and equipment and used them on the streets of US cities or sold them to civilian gang members.

For several years now, the military has been scrambling for recruits, as the U.S. tries to expand the ranks. Inevitably, this has led to a loosening of standards, with criminal history and gang affiliation not necessarily considered disqualifying factors.

I am certainly not trying to impugn the character of U.S. troops, the vast majority of whom are the pride of our nation, but it cannot be ignored that with lower recruitung standards there is a concomitant increase in the incidence of criminal activity--weapons theft and smuggling included.

How important is this source to the Mexican cartels? Perhaps not very, but I'll wager that they acquire more grenades, belt-fed machine guns, anti-tank rockets, etc. that way than they do from the legal civilian market--you know--the market we're told is inadequately regulated.

http://www.examiner.com/x-2581-St-Louis-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m4d8-Gang-members-stealing-weapons-from-military-arming-Mexican-drug-cartels

DOJ Report
Gang Members in the Military
Members of nearly every major street gang as well as some prison gangs and OMGs have been identified on both domestic and international military installations. Deployments have resulted in gang members among service members and/or dependents on or near overseas bases. Additionally, military transfers have resulted in gang members, both service members and dependents/relatives, moving to new areas and establishing a gang presence.

Gang members with military training pose a unique threat to law enforcement personnel because of the distinctive military skills that they possess and their willingness to teach these skills to fellow gang members. While the number of gang members trained by the military is unknown, the threat that they pose to law enforcement is potentially significant, particularly if gang members trained in weapons, tactics, and planning pass this instruction on to other gang members. (See Table 1.) In addition, gang members currently serving in the military sometimes take advantage of their positions to engage in criminal activities such as trafficking weapons and drugs.

http://www.justice.gov/ndic/pubs32/32146/military.htm

[Euromutt]

48. Anyone reminded of Yuri Orlov's last words to Agent Valentine?

In the movie Lord of War.

I do rub shoulders with some of the most vile, sadistic men calling themselves leaders today. But some of these men are the enemies of your enemies. And while the biggest arms dealer in the world is your boss--the President of the United States, who ships more merchandise in a day than I do in a year--sometimes it's embarrassing to have his fingerprints on the guns. Sometimes he needs a freelancer like me to supply forces he can't be seen supplying. So. You call me evil, but unfortunately for you, I'm a necessary evil.

An M16/M4 variant manufactured by Colt's, FNH-USA or Bushmaster, sold to the Mexican government (with oversight by the U.S. Dept. of Commerce), supplied to a state police force, and subsequently sold to the narcotraficantes by a corrupt state police armorer would presumably be "traced to the United States" as well, even though it never went through the U.S. private market.

[RamboLiberal]

21. Some numbers - Calderon is full of it!

In a joint statement presented to the Senate Judiciary Committee’s Subcommittee on Crimes and Drugs, ATF Assistant Director for Field Operations William Hoover and Anthony Placido, assistant administrator of intelligence with the Drug Enforcement Administration, clarified that the 90 percent figure is true of guns that were submitted and could be traced:

Hoover and Placido, March 17, 2009: Firearms are routinely being transported from the U.S. into Mexico in violation of both U.S. and Mexican law. In fact, according to ATF’s National Tracing Center, 90 percent of the weapons that could be traced were determined to have originated from various sources within the U.S.

And Mexico recovers a lot more guns than it submits to the U.S. In December 2008, Mexican Attorney General Eduardo Medina Mora put the number of recovered crime weapons in the country over the past two years at nearly 29,000, according to USA Today. And figures given by ATF make clear that the agency doesn’t trace nearly all of those.

According to ATF, Mexico submitted 7,743 firearms for tracing in fiscal year 2008 (which ended Oct. 1) and 3,312 guns in fiscal 2007. That adds up to a fraction of the two-year total given by Mexico’s attorney general. He may be referring to a slightly different 24-month period, but that can’t account for more than a part of the discrepancy. The number is growing, and already this year, Mexico has submitted more than 7,500 guns for tracing, according to ATF. But even if all those guns are added in, the total submitted for tracing since the start of fiscal 2007 doesn’t come close to the 29,000 figure that Mexico says it has recovered.

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/04/counting-mexicos-guns/

[gorfle]

23. These are not the weapons in use in third world countries.

I have no doubt that South America is rife with the world's most popular assault rifle: The AK-47. These are real AK-47s now - select fire rifles capable of fully-automatic fire. They are, reportedly, available in some parts of the world for as little as $50 or less.

In the United States, all look-alike AK-47 rifles are semi-automatic and retail for about $500.

Now which do you think is more likely?

Huge, multi-national, multi-billion dollar drug cartels import real, cheap, fully-automatic AK-47's from anywhere in the world, or they import crippled, expensive ones from the United States?

[proteus_lives]

24. Fail, they don't make AKs in the U.S.

And "assault weapons"?

:rofl:

Ignorance right there.

[Euromutt]

47. Depends on what you mean by "AK"

There are at least a dozen companies in the U.S. that manufacture "AKs" in the sense of "semi-auto-only Kalashnikov-pattern rifles." If you mean what I consider a proper AK, that is, a selective-fire variant of the Kalashnikov design, then you are correct: nobody in the U.S. makes those.

[slackmaster]

30. The ban was not "lifted" - It expired automatically as it was designed to do

US-made weapons causing crime in Jamaica? Let's see some evidence.

[spin]

31. Perhaps Calderon wants the U.S. disarmed ...

I wonder why.

[X_Digger]

37. It's an ever widening circle that ignores failed prohibitionist policies

Chicago has gun violence despite strict gun control laws? It's the fault of the neighboring states. Mexico has gun violence despite strict gun control laws? It's the fault of the neighboring countries.

It's never even acknowledged that prohibitionist policies create grey and black markets to provide whatever the prohibited item is, guns, drugs, alcohol, you name it. The very nature of these markets, and their inability to rely on traditional financing, regulation, and enforcement, means they become have no recourse outside of violence to settle disputes. Never is it the fault of the policy, no, it's always someone else's problem.

[benEzra]

38. Ummm, the 1994 law DIDN'T BAN ANY GUNS, and its expiration didn't legalize any guns.

What it did was to state that civilian AK's and AR's manufactured between 9/1994 and 9/2004, if they had protruding handgrips, had to have smooth muzzles or pin-on brakes (instead of screw-on brakes) could not have bayonet lugs, had to have fixed nonadjustable stocks, and could not be marketed under any of 19 banned names (many of which were red herrings anyway). My own civilian AK is a 2002 model:



Highlighted areas show the differences between a pre-1994 or a post-2004. That 30-round magazine was legally imported and sold during the non-ban as well ($9.99 in 2003).

But that's moot anyway, as the automatic weapons and grenades the cartels are using in most of their high-profile shootings are restricted to police/military/government in this country by the National Firearms Act of 1934. Those that are U.S. made are coming via the Mexican military or from stockpiles of U.S.-backed Cold War proxies in Central America, not from the U.S. civilian market, because U.S. civilians are restricted from owning them.

Possession of any automatic weapon, or any easily converted to full auto, without Federal authorization(BATFE Form 4) is a 10-year Federal felony violation of the NFA.

[DissedByBush]

42. The 1994 law specifically banned by name:

"Any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms in any caliber, known as--

(i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models);

(ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil;

(iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC-70);

(iv) Colt AR-15;

(v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC;

(vi) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9, and M-12;

(vii) Steyr AUG;

(viii) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; and

(ix) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12;"

[X_Digger]

43. They just changed the names & features..

Tec-9? No, it's an AB-10



It's not a PTAK-47, it's a WASR-10 ;)

[benEzra]

45. I *OWN* a ban-era AK (2002). The law banned 19 *names*; the guns stayed legal.

A "Colt Match Target" was not a "Colt AR-15", therefore not banned. "Colt AR-15" was and is a trademark of the Colt company anyway and only used by Colt, so the 30+ other manufacturers making AR-15 type rifles by 2004 weren't affected by the name ban at all. The Rock River Arms LAR-15, the Bushmaster XM-15, the Olympic Arms PCR, the Eagle Arms EA-15, and AR's made by DPMS, Armalite, JP Precision, Lewis Machine & Tool, etc. etc. were not banned because they weren't "Colt AR-15's".

By 2004 or so, AR-15 type rifles had become the most popular civilian centerfire rifles in the United States, and most of that popularity developed during the ban.

Here's a used ban-era Rock River LAR-15 for sale on Gunbroker. This rifle was probably made in the late '90s or early '00's; note the soldered-on muzzle brake, a quirk of ban-era guns.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=168088556


Here's my 2002 Romanian SAR-1, manufactured by CUGIR during the "ban", imported during the "ban" by Century Arms of Vermont, and sold to me brand new during the "ban" for $379. The 30-round magazine was also imported during the "ban" and sold (to me) in 2003 for $9.99, along with several others. The rifle came with a rare and somewhat collectible 40-round RPK magazine.



You can identify it as ban-era by the smooth muzzle (pre-'94 and post-'04 AK's generally have threaded muzzles and usually screw-on AKM-style slant brakes) and smooth gas block lower lug (on pre-'94 and post-'04 AK's, that lug is machined to act as part of a latch system).

Details of what I'm talking about:



Again, that's a 2002. And it's a Romanian SAR-1, not an "AK-47" or "Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikov" (the latter all Chinese made and not even imported by 1994, IIRC). SAR-1's like mine were only imported from 1999 through 2003, when the SAR was replaced by the WASR. Mine differs from a pre-'94 or post-'04 only in having a smooth muzzle and no bayonet lug.

Was that worth throwing away Congress in 1994 to you?

But don't take my word for it. Here are some primary sources, if you're skeptical. First, a chart of sales of AR-15 type rifles before and after the 1994 "assault weapon" non-ban went into effect (charting only those made by companies in existence in 1994). Yes, more were sold after 1994 than before.



Note that this chart only tracks seven manufacturers of AR-15 type rifles, whereas by 2004 there were twenty or thirty companies making them, so the apparent decline in sales after 1999 is largely spurious and reflects the newer, unlisted companies such as Rock River Arms gaining market share from Colt and Olympic Arms. In terms of overall numbers, more AR-15 type rifles were sold 1994-2004 than 1961-1994.

As to my 2002 SAR-1, here's the instruction manual; note the date is 2001:
http://www.centuryarms.com/manuals/sar1c.pdf

Another page with dates:
http://members.cox.net/sofk/rifles.html

And from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban#Compliance

[pipoman]

49. Yep, I wonder why

they had to ban by name? That seems like a risky way to legislate as names would be simple to change...and in fact were. The reason they had to ban by model name and not function is because the listed guns above all function in the exact same fashion as America's favorite hunting guns which have been in production for over 100 years.

[slackmaster]

56. They did it that way because they're ignorant

It's not really that hard to figure out

[slackmaster]

55. The only meaningful functional category in that list is revolving-cylinder shotguns

In every other case, the name is nothing more than a cosmetic marking.

The term "duplicates" is so vague that nobody knows how much of a mechanical alteration is needed to make one item not a "duplicate" of another.

[benEzra]

57. And those were already controlled under the National Firearms Act

by the time the Feinstein non-ban was passed. So even in that case, the AWB did nothing.

[aikoaiko]

40. Yeah, during the ban those $30 AR or AK mags were just too much for the drug cartels

Coincides. Coincidence.

[benEzra]

41. $9.99 for a 30-round Romanian import, $5.99 for a Hungarian 20-rounder, in 2002-2003.

Here's my $379 2002-model rifle with one of those $5.99 magazines.



AK prices are about the same now as then, but magazine prices are around twice that now, and of course ammunition has about tripled in price since 2005 or so.

[aikoaiko]

44. Its true -- I guess I was just trying to say that ending the ban didn't make "assault weapons:"

more affordable or accessible.

[benEzra]

46. Yup. No affect whatsoever. (n/t)

[Euromutt]

50. Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy

The violence in Mexico after Fox stepped up army/AFI operations against the narcotraficantes--a move which one Mexican political scientist characterized as "breaking open a wasps' nest"--and then really accelerated after Calderon deployed 45,000 army troops against the cartels. Both moves increased pressure on the cartels, triggering turf wars between them. While drug-related killings doubled from 2004 to 2006, they tripled from 2006 to 2008; the latter increase coincided with Calderon's sending in the army.

As for Jamaica, the homicide rate (which has been high for decades) sharply increased prior to the lapsing of the AWB in September 2004, but dropped again after 2005 (see http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/Caribbean-study-en.pdf Fig. 1.7 on page 10). There's no correlation with the lapsing of the AWB.