Question for J/PS participants....

[Superfly]

Have these discussions changed your viewpoint on the RKBA issue?

Brian

Edited for spelling and added "other"

[Dolomite]

1. It's also helped me

add the term "pantload" to my vocab.

[Superfly]

2. Yes, I have a virtual lexicon

of new terms...

[alwynsw]

4. I wonder how many of the new terms will find their way into the OED?

Wellllll, if Homer Simpson's "Doh!" got in, who knows?

[Romulus]

3. I voted "other"

I'm not as hard-core RKBA, but I still am firmly RKBA. I have learned that there is a murder problem in the US, and there can be some minor things done concerning firearms to possibly address that problem (i.e. background checks for all legal firearms purchases). I guess that would be considered "gun control."

However, I distinguish these initiatives from "gun-owner control," which I oppose (i.e. licensing schemes - AKA "gun owner roundup lists").

[Wickerman]

5. I can't vote in this poll

I'm afraid its gonna tilt a tad. The language is perhaps somewhat inflammatory. Perhaps you could substitute Pro-Gun Control for Anti-RKBA>

Its kind of like calling folks Pro-Choice vs. Pro-Abortion or Anti-Choice vs. Pro-Life.

Just my thoughts.

[Superfly]

6. Done.

Thanks for the suggestion.

[Wickerman]

7. Good 'un!

:thumbsup:

[slackmaster]

8. I've been involved in gun control/rights discussions for almost 10 years

My message for readers of DU and the Democratic Party is the same as it's always been, but even more important because we are at the edge of a precipice in this country.

I don't want to see the USA slip any deeper into one-party rule. We need to take responsibility for OUR contribution to the circumstances that led up to the election of 2000. It's too easy to blame it all on the Republicans rather than accept our missed cues and errors that created the situation that made 2000 possible. One of them is an ongoing failure to sincerely acknowledge and embrace the rights of citizens to keep and bear arms.

Democratic thought is dominated by an urban perspective at the expense of the interests of rural people. We're much too polarized in favor of big states and big cities. Trying to force rural Americans to live under what seems appropriate for NYC or Los Angeles or Chicago serves only to alienate votes that we need.

[CO Liberal]

10. Conversely.....

Trying to force rural gun standards on an urban population may prove to be a recipe for disaster.

[slackmaster]

11. To which I much reply - Then what is the real problem with cities?

Clearly guns alone are not sufficient to create a high-crime situation.

And I have no answer. If anyone ever figures it out please wake me up.

[CO Liberal]

15. No One Has Found The Answer Yet

And we never will as long as some pro-gunners insist on taking guns off the table. Yes, a gun is simply a tool - but we need to figure out WHY people use the tool to rob, plunder, and kill, and figure out how to stem the tide.

[slackmaster]

24. Available data does not show that gun bans help the real problem

Despite some drastic changes in gun control after the Port Arthur massacre the Australian homicide rate has remained pretty much constant, which suggests to me that when guns are made less easily available or the most supposedly dangerous ones are taken out of circulation, people choose other weapons (including bare hands).

http://www.aic.gov.au/research/homicide/stats/hvr.html

http://www.aic.gov.au/research/homicide/aic.html

This site has lots of information about Australian homicide. Murders by firearm are down in number and as a percentage of overall homicides, yet Australia is no safer today than it was 10 years ago.

[Romulus]

12. NOT urban vs. rural

It's about people's perceptions of who is ultimately responsibile for their personal safety.

It so happens that many urban dwellers believe that the police are responsible for their personal safety, and base their gun control decisions on that premise. These folks seem to be in the upper-middle-class crowd that does not have to face self-defense issues on a daily basis. For them it's a matter of philosophy. However, lower-class urban dwellers (like my former self), who had to confront the threat of violent crime every day without the benefit of a constant police presence, understand that the right to provide for your own self-defense, separate from the governmental protection of "society," is more than a mere philosophical argument.

The rural types are generally more self-reliant, and base their gun control views on this self-reliant world view. When bears/mountain lions/border area drug smugglers are a concern, these types understand that they are the only ones who will be there for themselves or their livelihood. For them it's a matter of survival.

[Superfly]

9. Kick

:kick:

[DonP]

13. Firmed up my greatest concerns

I know that the people here really represent a small segment of the overall population, but the vehemence of the "anti" feelings has convinced me that there are still a lot of people in our own party that see gun owners, shooters and hunters as the enemy.

How many times have we been accused of not being "Real Democrats"? And how many people have felt they are being treated that way and quietly stayed home on election day or actually changed parties because of it?

It's easy to say "to hell with them" then, but I thought the goal was to have the bigger, more liberal and open tent. Exclusion was supposed to be for the other guys, not us.

It seems the party at a national level has toned down the anti rhetoric for now at least, but my concern is it is just for show and the true heart fo the party is still very "control" oriented under the guise of "gun safety".

The rationalizing of how this has no effect on election results over the past three election cycles is the really scary thing. If it continues I can see us as becoming even more marginalized.

[timebandit]

14. Well said

DITTO !!

[CO Liberal]

16. And On The Other Side Of The Coin.....

How many times have we (pro-gunners) been accused of not being "Real Democrats"?

And how many times have us pro-control folks been accused of not being mentally competent?

[DonP]

28. Never by me

I know that in the heat of the discussion some folks tend to get personal and downright rude.

I have always tried to stay as level headed and calm about the issues, guns or others, as I can. FWIW, I have noticed that you are pretty good at staying on an even keel too.

[Superfly]

17. Interesting results...

After having this poll up for a day, 70% of respondents have indicated that they have only strengthened their convictions in the pro-RKBA direction. There are a couple possibilities:

1) This poll has been Freeped and we should dismiss the results as a huge pantload of hooey.

2) That the preponderance of Democrats understand the importance of an individuals right to keep and bear arms.

I will subscribe to the latter.

[CO Liberal]

18. Or Option 3

There are a lot of pro-control DU-ers who will no longer visit the J/PS board because of past flamefests.

IMHO, that is the most likely scenario.

[Superfly]

19. That still fits in with option 2

The preponderance of Democrats are pro-RKBA, but because of the temperamental nature of the J/PS forum, do not post here with any regularity, but will vote in a poll.

[CO Liberal]

20. I Don't See It That Way

I believe the preponderance of DUers are pro-control, but have been so disgusted by the behavior of a handful of pro-gunners on this board and no longer come down here. (More than once, I've received private messages from other DU-ers saying that they agree with me, but refuse to post on J/PS because they've been flamed in the past.)

If you posted this poll in another board (such as General Discussion of the Lounge), you would probably get far different results.

[Superfly]

21. OK...try it.

Post this exact same poll in GD and let's put that theory to the test.

[CO Liberal]

22. I Just Did

Here's a link to it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1016085

I used the exact same choiced you did (in fact, I copied and pasted them from this thread), with one addition - I added a "no opinion" choice for people who have not participated in gun-related threads here at DU.

We'll see if the results come out any differently.

[Superfly]

23. Alright, thanks.

B

[iverglas]

33. mm hmm

After having this poll up for a day, 70% of respondents have
indicated that they have only strengthened their convictions in
the pro-RKBA direction. There are a couple possibilities:

1) This poll has been Freeped and we should dismiss the results
as a huge pantload of hooey.

2) That the preponderance of Democrats understand the importance
of an individuals right to keep and bear arms.

I will subscribe to the latter.


I took a poll the other day on what kind of ice cream people like best: 70% said chocolate, and 30% said vanilla.

I saw only two possible explanations:

(1) the chocolate industry paid people to answer my poll;

(2) most people understand that chocolate ice cream makes sex more enjoyable while vanilla ice cream gives you warts.

Obviously, the latter is the correct conclusion.

.

[CO Liberal]

25. Currrent Results From (Nearly) Identical Poll On General Discussion Board

Poll result (35 votes)

Yes, I have completely changed my mind on guns (was pro RKBA now pro gun control) (0 votes, 0%)

Yes, I have completely changed my mind on guns (was pro gun control now pro RKBA) (3 votes, 9%)

Not at all, I still subscribe to the same position I always have (6 votes, 17%)

I have only strengthened my convictions (pro gun control) (12 votes, 34%)

I have only strengthened my convictions (pro RKBA) (9 votes, 26%)

Somewhat, I am still open to change my viewpoint given a valid argument (2 votes, 6%)

No Opinion - I have not participated in any gun-related discussions here at DU (3 votes, 9%)

Other (please specify in a reply) (0 votes, 0%)

So when the poll appears elsewhere on DU, "I have only strengthened my convictions (pro gun control)" is the front-runner.

I just kicked it again to see if we get any more responses.

[MrBenchley]

26. We had a poll like this once before

with somewhat hilarious results.....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=18595#18645

[Superfly]

29. Look again

Option #2 and option #5 total 12 votes
Option #4 totals 12 votes

I would say the results are about 50-50 right now.

[slackmaster]

30. 50-50 is what I expect from DUers at large

Split right down the middle, with a small vocal minority at each end of the curve who actually give a shit about the subject.

[iverglas]

34. "DUers at large"

Can I safely assume that no one from hereabouts voted in the poll in GD?

Since I understood that the purpose was to get response from NON-gun dungeon posters, I would certainly hope that I can assume that.

Funny how the am-and-always-was-"pro-RKBA" vote inched up there ...

.

[slackmaster]

35. No, those are not good assumptions

CO Liberal explained his reason for putting the poll on GD as "I thought that the results may change because many people no longer visit the J/PS board, and would not have seen the poll."

I voted in the GD poll.

Funny how the am-and-always-was-"pro-RKBA" vote inched up there ...

Yes, I believe it did that right after CO mentioned it here on J/PS.

:D

BTW here's a link to it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1016085

[iverglas]

36. yup

Funny how the am-and-always-was-"pro-RKBA" vote inched up there ...

Yes, I believe it did that right after CO mentioned it here on J/PS.

That's exactly what I was referring to.

Since I thought it was fairly plain that CO's intent was to survey the opinion of people who were NOT regular J/PS posters at present, and who did NOT vote in the J/PS poll, that struck me as having produced a rather seriously flawed sample, and skewed result.

I haven't voted in either poll, since none of the choices particularly represents me.

I suppose I'd say that my positions have not changed at all, but that I've fleshed out the reasons for them and satisfied myself that they were integrated into / consistent with my political philosophy in general. A confirmation process, if you will.

I occasionally change my mind, or at least make it up. (I tend not to have opinions when I have not satisfied myself that I have adequate information and have given adequate thought to the matter in question.) For instance, I'd never been quite certain what I thought about narcotics/drug legalization -- again, we don't have the widespread evil consequences of a "war on drugs" up here; hell, we all know what sentences are like here, and inmates can vote. But when I decided to think about it and investigate a little more, I came down on the anti-prohibition side, for reasons consistent with other positions I hold.

I'm quite satisfied that my position on firearms control is entirely consistent with my overall position on human rights and public safety.

.

[slackmaster]

37. I can't speak for CO of course but I read his intent differently

It seemed to me (and I could be mistaken) that his intent was to sample a less biased population (i.e. the whole enchilada instead of just J/PS). No matter really, the only people who bothered to vote are those who cared enough to bother voting.

I've been against drug prohibition since the get-go, for reasons I believe to be consistent with most other positions I hold.

I'm quite satisfied that my position on firearms control is entirely consistent with my overall position on human rights and public safety.

And mine dovetails with my positions on human rights and freedom of choice. Of course I care about public safety as well as any reasonable person does. In the interests of preserving liberty I would require a very strict standard for laws that preemptively limit property, speech, or behavior: They should have some kind of built-in accountability check it if reasonably possible; be subject to periodic review to ensure that they are delivering the offsetting benefit as promised (again, if one can reasonably put a measurement on the intended dependent variable); and subject to automatic sunset if they fail. Alas, I do not run the Zoo.

[beevul]

27. As of 3:48 PM...

Its tied.

[CO Liberal]

31. Latest Results From the Nearly Identical Poll ...

...on the General Discussion Board:

Poll result (55 votes)

Yes, I have completely changed my mind on guns (was pro RKBA now pro gun control) (0 votes, 0%)

Yes, I have completely changed my mind on guns (was pro gun control now pro RKBA) (4 votes, 7%)

Not at all, I still subscribe to the same position I always have (11 votes, 20%)

I have only strengthened my convictions (pro gun control) (17 votes, 31%)

I have only strengthened my convictions (pro RKBA) (16 votes, 29%)

Somewhat, I am still open to change my viewpoint given a valid argument (3 votes, 5%)

No Opinion - I have not participated in any gun-related discussions here at DU (4 votes, 7%)

Other (please specify in a reply) (0 votes, 0%)

So you can see that when the base of people exposed to the poll is broadened, the results change. After all, the majority of people who frequent the J/PS board are pro-gun, so you would naturally expect the results to be predominantly pro-gun.

[Superfly]

32. What's even more telling

is that 7% of respondents were pro-gun control, but for some reason, changed to pro-RKBA.

Thanks, the comparison was very interesting.

Brian