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Federal Court Upholds DC Hand Gun Ban(2nd has no indiv.right to own guns)

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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 10:53 PM
Original message
Federal Court Upholds DC Hand Gun Ban(2nd has no indiv.right to own guns)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-3626455,00.html

Federal Court Upholds DC Hand Gun Ban

Thursday January 15, 2004 3:16 AM
By MARTY NILAND
Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) - A federal judge on Wednesday upheld the District of Columbia's gun control law that prohibits ownership of handguns, rejecting a legal challenge by a group of citizens backed by the National Rifle Association.

U.S. District Judge Reggie B. Walton dismissed the lawsuit in which the plaintiffs argued that the 28-year-old law violated their Second Amendment right to own guns. The D.C. law prohibits ownership or possession of handguns and requires that others, such as shotguns, be kept unloaded, disassembled or equipped with trigger locks.
Walton ruled that the Second Amendment is not a broad-based right of gun ownership.

``The Second Amendment does not confer an individual a right to possess firearms. Rather, the Amendment's objective is to ensure the vitality of state militias,'' Walton wrote.

He went on to say that the amendment was designed to protect the citizens against a potentially oppressive federal government. <snip>


On the Net:
National Rifle Association: http://www.nra.org
Violence Policy Center: http://www.vpc.org

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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. Oh good! Now I'm sure all the criminals in DC will turn in their guns.
Edited on Wed Jan-14-04 11:09 PM by bluestateguy
For many years DC was the murder capital of the nation, in spite of this stupid law. DC remains high up on the list of city homicide rates. It would be nice if law abiding persons could have the right to defend themselves in Washington D.C.
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lcordero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 12:52 AM
Response to Original message
2. I'm going to post this every single time something about guns
comes up:

http://www.jpfo.org/GCA_68.htm

"There is no constitutional right to be protected by the state (or Federal) against being murdered by criminals or madmen. It is monstrous if the state fails to protect its residents against such predators but it does not violate the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, or, we suppose, any other provision of the Constitution. The Constitution is a charter of negative liberties: it tells the state (gov't) to let people alone; it does not require the federal government or the state to provide services, even so elementary a service as maintaining law and order"
(Bowers v. DeVito, U.S. Court of Appeals, Seventh Circuit, 686F.2d 616 <1982>).
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. About That Quote
Please tell us the context in which that statement was made. Was that from the majority opinion (the winning side of the argument) or the minority opinion (the losing side)?
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Don't expect an answer
But here is the actual case.......

http://www.healylaw.com/cases/bowers.htm

Note that it's from the dissent.....and concluded that the state of Illinois fully liable under tort law.

You may wonder why every RKBA argument involves some sort of deception or distortion...as this one did.
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milliner Donating Member (122 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Close but no cigar
the quote is from the majority. It is not from the dissent.


If the state puts a man in a position of danger from private persons and then fails to protect him, it will not be heard to say that its role was merely passive; it is as much an active tortfeasor as if it had thrown him into a snake pit. It is on this theory that state prison personnel are sometimes held liable under section 1983 for the violence of one prison inmate against another. See, e.g.,

This is an example from the dissent opinion written by Harlington Wood Jr.

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lcordero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. You just gave me more ammo and have proven that I am right
<6>We need not decide whether this distinction is valid, for there is an alternative ground on which the dismissal of the complaint against these defendants must be upheld. Section 1983 imposes liability on anyone who under color of state law "subjects . . . any citizen . . . or other person . . . to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution . . .," and thus applies only if there is a deprivation of a constitutional right. See, e.g., Paul v. Davis, 424 U.S. 693, 699-701, 96 S.Ct. 1155, 1159-1160, 47 L.Ed.2d 405 (1976); Baker v. McCollan, 443 U.S. 137, 146-47, 99 S.Ct. 2689, 2695-96, 61 L.Ed.2d 433 (1979); Bonner v. Coughlin, 545 F.2d 565, 567, 569 (7th Cir. 1976). There is a constitutional right not to be murdered by a state officer, for the state violates the Fourteenth Amendment when its officer, acting under color of state law, deprives a person of life without due process of law. Brazier v. Cherry, 293 F.2d 401, 404-05 (5th Cir. 1961). But there is no constitutional right to be protected by the state against being murdered by criminals or madmen. It is monstrous if the state fails to protect its residents against such predators but it does not violate the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment or, we suppose, any other provision of the Constitution. The Constitution is a charter of negative liberties; it tells the state to let people alone; it does not require the federal government or the state to provide services, even so elementary a service as maintaining law and order. Discrimination in providing protection against private violence could of course violate the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. But that is not alleged here. All that is alleged is a failure to protect Miss Bowers and others like her from a dangerous madman, and as the State of Illinois has no federal constitutional duty to provide such protection its failure to do so is not actionable under section 1983.
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alwynsw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. Oops.
See post #15.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-18-04 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. Yeah, I did....
Too bad it's such a steaming pantload. But I suppose it's convincing to those who think that Mary Rosh is a scientist and that Barney Frank is hated by gays but Rick Santorum is hunky-dory with them....
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. A Triple Straw Man!
That's got to be a record for such a short post.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
5. W-why, that would mean that the NRA lied to its members!
Edited on Thu Jan-15-04 08:58 AM by MrBenchley
You'll also noted the racist idiots didn't sue THEMSELVES....wonder why?
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funkyflathead Donating Member (723 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
7. Goody, Goody Orrin Hatch can still keep his handgun
Edited on Thu Jan-15-04 09:30 AM by funkyflathead
Ya know there are bills in congress to overturn DC's gun ban right?

ANY semi-auto with more than 12 rounds is BANNED for the law abiding folks
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Yeah, figures a GOP piece of shit would have one
"Ya know there are bills in congress to overturn DC's gun ban right?"
They were introduced by the scum of the earth, too. Those are the public figures pushing this "gun rights" horseshit.
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RoeBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Well at least the piece of shit is doing...
...something for the law abiding black citizens of D.C.
(or weren't you aware that the population of D.C. is predominately black, 61%)
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RoeBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Come on tell me...
...why is this piece of shit proposing legislation that would allow law abiding black citizens to purchase guns? Is it to placate his following of racist KKK members. How does arming the 'enemy' work to that end?
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Romulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
9. don't forget this gem
Edited on Thu Jan-15-04 10:15 AM by Romulus
He also ruled that the Second Amendment does not apply to the district because it was intended to protect]state citizens, and the district is not a state.

So there is still an open question on whether a state resident has a 2A-based RKBA; after all, the judge did say that the 2A is for the states' protection.

(edited to add)
I wonder if any of the other Constitutional Amendments apply to DC, seeing as how the 2A doesn't because it's not a "state.".:eyes:
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Baclava Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. You got it!
No matter what this judge rules, it still goes back to this basic principal: a man who is armed can call himself a citizen, while a man who is not armed can call himself a subject.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Now if they can only get rid of the inconvenience of the 4th and 5th
in D.C., they can control the peo, err, the crime.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
10. Two levels of appeal to go
We'll see how it plays out. Nothing's for sure until the Supremes speak, and they have been known to reverse themselves from time to time.
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Superfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
11. Why would anybody in their right mind live in DC?
- No government representation, yet federal government judges rule on and deny their rights.
- Depsite their ban on firearms, one of the highest rates of crime with firearms in the nation.
- One of the highest levels of taxation and cost of living anywhere in the US.
- The worst traffic problems in the US.

Besides NJ, sign me up to not live in DC.
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Romulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. you got that right
my wife asked me if I would have continued to go out with her if she had owned a condo in DC (instead of a house in MD) when I met her.

I was honest - "Things would never have gotten past the initial meeting." :evilgrin:
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hansberrym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
16. Link to DC Court opinion in Seegars v. Ashcroft
Link to DC gun decision:
http://www.dcd.uscourts.gov/03-834.pdf


Judge Walton comes to his conclusion in much the same way as did Judge Reinhardt in Silveira. He makes the following errors in his arguments regarding individual v. collective rights, and these are more likely deliberate misinterpretations considering his education and the resources available to him.

1) reading the prefatory clause as a qualifier though it is not written in that form,
2) disregarding the US Supreme Court's definition of term "militia" in Miller,
3) claiming to be perplexed by the term "keep" though it is cited in both Miller and Aymette,
4) ignoring that "bearing arms" was used repeatedly during the ratification debates of the Bill of Rights as the action of an individual person (rather than the action of a state or the people in the collective sense).



The Supreme Court in Miller supplies a clear definition of the term "Militia", provides historical references to the types of arms that an individual was expected to "keep", and historical background on the prefatory clause.

From Miller:
The General Assembly of Virginia, October, 1785 (12 Hening’s Statutes c. 1, p. 9 et seq.), declared:

‘The defense and safety of the commonwealth depend upon having its citizens properly armed and taught the knowledge of military duty.’ It further provided for organization and control of the Militia and directed that {b}‘All free male persons between the ages of eighteen and fifty years,’ with certain exceptions, ‘shall be inrolled or formed into companies.’ ‘There shall be a private muster of every company once in two months.’ Also that ‘Every officer and soldier shall appear at his respective muster-field on the day appointed, by eleven o’clock in the forenoon, armed, equipped, and accoutred, as follows: ... every non-commissioned officer and private with a good, clean musket carrying an ounce ball, and three feet eight inches long in the barrel, with a good bayonet and iron ramrod well fitted thereto, a cartridge box properly made, to contain and secure twenty cartridges fitted to his musket, a good knapsack and canteen, and moreover, each non-commissioned officer and private shall have at every muster one pound of good <307 U.S. 174, 182> powder, and four pounds of lead, including twenty blind cartridges; and each serjeant shall have a pair of moulds fit to cast balls for their respective companies, to be purchased by the commanding officer out of the monies arising on delinquencies. Provided, That the militia of the counties westward of the Blue Ridge, and the counties below adjoining thereto, shall not be obliged to be armed with muskets, but may have good rifles with proper accoutrements, in lieu thereof. And every of the said officers, non-commissioned officers, and privates, shall constantly keep the aforesaid arms, accoutrements, and ammunition, ready to be produced whenever called for by his commanding officer.


(also from Miller)

"The signification attributed to the term Militia appears from the debates in the Convention, the history and legislation of Colonies and States, and the writings of approved commentators. These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. ‘A body of citizens enrolled for military discipline.’ And further, that ordinarily when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time"
(end quote) (my emphasis)


From Aymette:
"The convention, in securing the public political right in question, did not intend to take away from the legislature all power of regulating the social relations of the citizens upon this subject. It is true, it is somewhat difficult to draw the precise line where legislation must cease and where the political right begins, but it, is not difficult to state a case where the right of legislation would exist. The citizens have the unqualified right to keep the weapon, it being of the character before described as being intended by this provision. But the right to bear arms is not of that unqualified character. The citizens may bear them for the common defence; but it does not follow that they may be borne by an individual, merely to terrify the people or for purposes of private assassination. And, as the manner in which they are worn and circumstances under which they are carried indicate to every man the purpose of the wearer, the legislature may prohibit such manner of wearing as would never be resorted to by persons engaged in the common defence...
(end quote)

Even Aymette, which reads the Tennessee Constitution and the Second Amendment very narrowly, does not deny that "keep" means private ownership, or that there is a right of the citizens to "bear arms" which can not be regulated out of existence. Aymette states that the right to "bear arms" is qualified, and only relates to common or collective defense, but people must still be allowed to bear arms openly as long as they are not terrorizing others, and that the "keeping" of arms is an unqualified right.


Also Judge Walton ignores the reference to individual action associated with "bearing arms" in this quote from page 47 of Seegars v. Ashcroft:

" The original version proposed by Madison read: “The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed, and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country: but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms, shall be compelled to render military service in person."(end quote)

Judge Walton sees only the military reference and ignores that Madison was using "bearing arms" to refer to an individual's action (in this case, "to render military service in person").

Since "keep arms" refered to an invidual's action and "bearing arms" refered to an individual's action; it makes no sense to conclude that "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" is a purely collective right, or a right of the state.








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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-18-04 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
20. NRA High-Mucky-Muck Mike Haas Responds To The Decision
Edited on Sun Jan-18-04 10:27 AM by slackmaster
I just found this while exploring the talk.politics.guns newsgroup on Usenet.

Mr. Haas says the organization's goal is to get a case to the Supreme Court:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=group:talk.politics.guns+insubject:DC+insubject:gun+insubject:ban+author:mike%40NOSPAMmuzzleenergy.com&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=40099c7f%240%2413674%24d368eab%40news.calweb.com&rnum=1

On edit: I had to disable smilies in this post to get the link to work.
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