Chicago and it's ban.

[one-eyed fat man]

City’s Restrictive Gun Laws Are Rarely Enforced

Since 1982, when the city tightened its gun ordinances to include the handgun ban, there have been just 2,201 convictions under the laws, according to data obtained by the Chicago News Cooperative from the office of the Cook County Circuit Court clerk. That works out to an average of about 79 convictions a year.

Thugs in Chicago shoot damn near that many people during a summer weekend!

Curiously, both the Chicago police and prosecutors claim that they are charging people under State and Federal laws which carry heavier penalties. Now stop and think a minute. There is no Federal law that prohibits having a gun in Chicago. So how does having a gun in Chicago get to be a Federal rap? If the answer isn't totally obvious already, they MUST already be a prohibited person:

Under the GCA, firearms possession by certain categories of individuals is prohibited.

1. Anyone who has been convicted in a federal court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year, excluding crimes of imprisonment that are related to the regulation of business practices.
2. Anyone who has been convicted in a state court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding two years, excluding crimes of imprisonment that are related to the regulation of business practices.
3. Anyone who is a fugitive from justice.
4. Anyone who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance.
5. Anyone who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to a mental institution.
6. Any alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States or an alien admitted to the United States under a non-immigrant visa. Legal non-immigrant aliens may possess guns if they have a current, valid hunting license.
7. Anyone who has been discharged under dishonorable conditions from the United States armed forces.
8. Anyone who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his or her citizenship.
9. Anyone that is subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner. (added 1996)
10. Anyone who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence (added in 1996 by the Domestic Violence Offender Gun Ban, or "Lautenberg Amendment.")

Additionally, 18 USC 922(x) generally prohibits persons under 18 from possessing handguns or handgun ammunition with certain exceptions for employment, target practice, education, and a handgun possessed while defending the home of the juvenile or a home in which they are an invited guest.

Also as obviously, that same bunch of thugs, wife-beaters, lunatics and convicts do not qualify for an Illinois Firearms Owners Identification card (FOID). That leaves the question, just exactly who is the ordinance meant to target if all the really bad guys are already covered by State and Federal law?

Mr. Sherman, 81, an alderman of the 21st Ward from 1979 to 1987, is supposed to be exempt from the handgun ban because he had been a Chicago police officer. Mr. Sherman tried to register under the new ordinance, along with 255 others as of mid-August. So far, 156 applications have been approved. Mr. Sherman’s was not one of them; he was told he had to undergo a new round of training on a shooting range.

The obvious intent of the handgun ban was, and continues to be, to make it more cumbersome for ordinary citizens to register firearms. It does virtually nothing to inconvenience criminals with only 2201 convictions in 28 years. Small wonder that eighty year old men ask themselves, “Why don’t I just do like these punks on the street have done, and put my guns away and pull them out and use them when I want?” This lunacy has convinced the Joyce Foundation to give Dick(head) Daley $20,000 more dollars to fight for the latest version of the Chicago ordinance whose only purpose is torment and disarm the beleaguered taxpaying victims of that cesspool of corruption and cronyism known as Chicago.

[HERVEPA]

1. Fewer people with guns the better. Period.

[DonP]

2. Yeah, right. Brilliant thinking! Is that from your bumper sticker?

Congratulations, Chicago has followed your sage advice and has seen to it that every law abiding citizen is not allowed to own a gun.

Of course that has no impact of the criminals, but to quote you, "the fewer guns the better", so it must be a gun free paradise for citizens here.

Only it's not. We have more killings than Baghdad some weekends. One weekend in July we had 54 shootings and 20 some killed, the next weekend it was down to "only" 30 shootings and 11 dead.

Your simple minded bumper sticker mentality is what allows idiots like Daley to deal with a war on the streets by disarming only the law abiding and allowing hundred of young people and innocent citizens to die every year.

Did you hear me, it's Daley's fault, not the NRA or "Ebil Gun Manufacturers" or the people that target shoot on the weekend.

Plus Daley doesn't even get around to prosecuting the criminals they do catch trafficking guns, thy get plea bargained to a misdemeanor.

[Callisto32]

3. A bold statement.

Can we at least have a policy argument?

[one-eyed fat man]

4. There is a "gated community" in Pennsylvania.

All the residents here are gun-free. Exactly the environment you most desire. Doesn't seem to be a low-crime neighborhood though.

[rrneck]

5. If all the guns in the world went away

what self defense solution do you offer someone who is assaulted by another using a knife, club, fists or feet?

[cleanhippie]

6. Any chance you can support your assertion with data?

and then have a rational discussion about it?






Or was this just a hit and run, inflammatory rhetorical post?

[spin]

7. Looks like just a drive by posting ...

a random bust of words fired into a forum crowd followed by a key board smoking get away. Fortunately the words were low caliber and the post lacked accuracy, consequently no damage done.

[cleanhippie]

8. Anonymous forums embolden drive-by postings. Something must be done!

[jeepnstein]

13. The return fire is on target.

[Callisto32]

20. This sounds like a headline for "The Onion."

[jazzhound]

21. Perfect!

Fortunately the words were low caliber and the post lacked accuracy, consequently no damage done.

:thumbsup:

[SteveM]

18. It's just a post to get "hilarious" responses! You say "tomato," I say "tomahto!" See? Hilarious!

[PavePusher]

9. Meh. Fail by lack of evidence. n/t

[friendly_iconoclast]

10. And the Lysenkoist school of gun control is heard from..

I leave it to noted writer Bruce Sterling to describe the Lysenkoists' 'work'...

From the June 2004 Wired:

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.06/view.html?pg=4

Bruce Sterling June 2004

...When politicians dictate science, government becomes entangled in its own deceptions, and eventually the social order decays in a compost of lies. Society, having abandoned the scientific method, loses its empirical referent, and truth becomes relative. This is a serious affliction known as Lysenkoism.

Trofim Lysenko was Joseph Stalin's top stooge in Soviet agricultural science, a field that was mercilessly politicized by fanatics. His specialty was inventing nutty schemes - things like stimulating the evolution of trees by overcrowding them to get them to cooperate, as though they were communist minions. This totalitarian huckster spent his whole career promising exciting results and bringing about only disaster. But the party never judged itself on results, so he always got a free pass.....

We are supposed to deny or reject empirical evidence on results of the Chicago gun ban, hence the label. The really

ironic thing is, Sterling was describing the Bush Jong-Il claques' attempt to fiddle scientific fact to fit their ideology.



Oddly enough, the neo-Lysenkoist gun controllers can also be 'Royalist' gun controllers- the type that want to restrict guns to

police and the "good" people. There are two subsets of the Royalists -the ones who own guns themselves, and the ones who do not.


A few things to note about the gun-owning subset of Royalists:

*Their guns are never a problem, it's the ones in the hands of others that are problematic.

* I've yet to see one declare that they have or will destroy what gun(s) they own (or have owned) to avoid the merest

possibility that someone else might do wrong with them.

[spin]

14. The rich famous and influential always believe they deserve more privilege than the average ...

serf or peon.

It's easy for the elite to assume that the fact that they have money (inherited or not), political connection or fame shows that they are far more intelligent and responsible than the vast unwashed and illiterate mass of humanity and therefore entitled to privileges and perks.

Of course, gun control is based on racism and often the ruling elite fear that armed minorities are dangerous.

One example is New York City.

1911 New York Police choose who can own guns lawfully. "Sullivan Law" enacted, requiring police permission, via a permit issued at their discretion, to own a handgun. Unpopular minorities were and are routinely denied permits. ("Gun Control: White Man's Law," William R. Tonso, Reason, December 1985) "(There are only about 3,000 permits in New York City , and 25,000 carry permits. If you're a street-corner grocer in Manhattan , good luck getting a gun permits. But among those who have been able to wrangle a precious carry permit out of the city's bureaucracy are Donald Trump, Arthur Ochs Sulzburger, William Buckley, Jr., and David, John, Lawrence and Winthrop Rockefeller. Surprise." (Terrance Moran, "Racism and the Firearms Firestorm," Legal Times)
http://www.blackmanwithagun.com/site/cpage.asp?cpage_id=140019513&sec_id=140000845

Sullivan Act

The Sullivan Act, also known as the Sullivan Law, is a controversial gun control law in New York State. Upon first passage, the Sullivan Act required licenses for New Yorkers to possess firearms small enough to be concealed. Possession of such firearms without a license was a misdemeanor, carrying them was a felony. The possession or carrying of weapons such as brass knuckles, sandbags, blackjacks, bludgeons or bombs was a felony, as was possessing or carrying a dagger, "dangerous knife" or razor "with intent to use the same unlawfully". Named for its primary legislative sponsor, state senator Timothy Sullivan, a notoriously corrupt Tammany Hall politician, it dates to 1911, and is still in force, making it one of the older existing gun control laws in the United States.

***snip***

Notable New York City license holders

Outside of New York City, the practices for the issuance of concealed carry licenses vary from county to county within New York State. In New York City, the licensing authority is the police department, which rarely issues carry licenses to anyone except retired police officers. Critics of the law have alleged that New Yorkers with political influence, wealth, or celebrity appear to be issued licenses more liberally.<1> The New York Post, the New York Sun, and other newspapers have obtained the list of licensees through Freedom of Information Law requests and have published the names of individuals they consider to be wealthy, famous, or politically connected that have been issued carry licenses by the city police department.<2><3><4> Current and past New York City license holders include:

* Senator Charles Schumer
* Don Imus
* Harvey Keitel
* Joseph Bruno
* Ronald Lauder
* Edgar Bronfman, Sr.
* Howard Stern
* Donald Trump
* William F. Buckley Jr.
* Joan Rivers
* Arthur Hays Sulzberger
* Robert DeNiro

***snip***

Many believe the act was to discriminate against immigrants in New York, particularly Italians, as the first person arrested under the law was mobster Giuseppe Costabile <1>

. Whether this was part of the law's intent, it was passed on a wave of anti-immigrant rhetoric as a measure to disarm an alleged criminal element. The police granted the licenses, and could easily discriminate against "undesirable" elements. Sponsor "Big Tim" Sullivan reputedly desired the law so that his criminal cohorts could go about their activities unimpeded by citizens defending themselves with concealed handguns.<5>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sullivan_Act

[SteveM]

19. "Lysenko." Fonetically, an apt name. Good find. nt

[proteus_lives]

11. Fewer people with rights the better. Period.

We know that's what you really wanted to say.

[spin]

49. Just the right people with the rights. (n/t)

[TexanRudeBoy]

12. I guess

but these bans obviously aren't reducing the number of guns or gun crimes. They're just reducing the number of armed law abiding citizens.

[spin]

15. Bans and prohibitions usually fail. Look at our "War on Drugs" ...

or the failure to ban alcohol during Prohibition.

[beevul]

16. Surely you'll be lobbying for police to be disarmed then, no? N/T

[SteveM]

17. Your "period." It has such a fundie ring to it. nt

[jazzhound]

22. Nothing quite so attractive as a display of arrogance

from a position of complete ignorance, is there?

[AtheistCrusader]

23. Yeah, I like to de-fang, and de-claw my housecats too, it's for everyone's protection

[DrDan]

25. spot on . . . . 'nuff said

[PavePusher]

26. Yeah, the fewer people with Civil Rights...

the better. You never know what the unenlightened fools will do with liberty and freedom, but it probably wouldn't be good.

[DrDan]

29. but we do know what some with guns will do . . . and it isn't good

[X_Digger]

30. but we do know what some with free speech will do... and it isn't good..

but we do know what some with privacy rights will do... and it isn't good..

but we do know what some with religious freedom will do... and it isn't good..

SCOTUS has held, repeatedly, that the 'harm' that the misuse of a right may do is not sufficient cause to limit that right.

The right protected by the fifth amendment puts murderers back on the street. The right protected by the fourth amendment (via things like the exclusionary rule) allows rapists and pedophiles to go free. Yet I daresay, you wouldn't make the statement that fewer people should invoke their rights when speaking to the police.

[lawodevolution]

24. what I don't understand is why someone can

Be so sure an administration is fascist (like under Bush) and then at the same time want them to control all the guns.

[shadowrider]

27. You're new here, so here's a primer

1. A statement of fact that can't be refuted by an anti-RKBA results in being called names. The name caller then departs the thread.
2. When an anti-RKBA person makes a riduculous statement, they usually, if a link is provided at all, will quote the VPC or the Brady Campaign to Reduce Gun Violence. YOU will then be challenged to refute the statement.
2A. If you do refute the statement with facts, links and common sense, you will be told (pick one):
2AA. You are quoting a right-wing hate-mongering site
2AB. You are mis-interpreting the information
2AC. Your information has not been peer reviewed
2AD. THEIR information is from the VPC or BCTPGV and therefore you are wrong
2AE. IF you do use VPC or BCTPGV stats to disprove them, you'll be told you're misinterpreting the facts.
2AF. IF there were no guns, murders would cease to exist and we'd all be in paradise. You see, killing someone with an instrument
other than a gun is less lethal. When they can't dispute death/murder occurs without guns, see #1.
2AG. Facism, by exemplary support of all rights EXCEPT the 2nd isn't facism to them. It's common sense (from their point of view)
3. They will take the results of 2AA, 2AB, 2AC, 2AD and 2AE, dismiss them, and again tell you to use facts from a REPUTABLE website (i.e. one that doesn't fit any of the above AND one that agrees with THEIR point of view).
4. When you do find a site, such as FBI, DOJ etc. to refute them, see #1.

[hendo]

28. Its sad how often that happens here

and its not even close to being limited to fire arms.

[Kolesar]

31. Chicago is "fascist"?

Really??

[DonP]

32. Yeah, pretty much

Daley supports "Free Speech Zones" for his conventions and major events.

The Chicago Police have a great record for crushing, literally and figurateively, any organized protests on his direction.

He ignores Federal directives, like not just closing, but destroying a Federal controlled airport in the middle of the night.

He rams through his personal, and most view as unconstitutional legislation, like his recent gun control response to losing the McDonald SCOTUS case.

Hands out no-bid contracts to his personal supporters based on their financial support.

Yup, pretty much fascist style rule.

Why, are you a big Daley fan? Are you heartbroken that he's decided to retire?

[Kolesar]

37. I thought it was "communist"

Would you like a few minutes to think about your answer?
:sarcasm:

[PavePusher]

40. Communist and Facist have large areas of overlap.

But I'm sure you knew that already....

[Kolesar]

42. Maybe in a Sarah Palin speech, but not here

[one-eyed fat man]

33. OK, how about lying, thieving sack of shit???

Meigs Field.



Sneaking in under the cover of darkness, at about 1:30 a.m. on March 31, 2003, Mayor Daley ordered private crews to destroy the runway in the middle of the night, bulldozing large X-shaped gouges into the runway surface. An incoming flight had to be diverted. There was no advance warning, not even to the FAA. The FAA control tower was part-time and the destruction of the runway was timed to start after FAA tower personnel had shut down for the evening. Some 16 aircraft were stranded on the field for weeks The City of Chicago fought any attempt to allow them be flown out as Mayor Daley had declared the the media the "Meigs had been closed for good!" Undeterred by the prospect of being sued and having to reimburse the stranded aircraft owners for having their airplanes disassembled, trucked to another airport, and reassembled, Daley even groused when the FAA allowed the aircraft to take off on a taxiway.

In December 2001 he pledged to keep the airport open, in support of federal legislation that granted him expansion of O'Hare airport. The mayor has not only broken his promise, he saddled the citizens of his own city with the cost of litigation, the fines, and to repay $1 million in misappropriated FAA Airport Improvement Program funds that HE used to destroy the airfield in an underhanded, two-faced, yes, I daresay, FASCIST fucking fashion!

The fact he and his administration have been corrupt about guns should be no surprise. They have been underhanded, corrupt about everything the City touches from parking permits to police protection.

Mayor Daley has no honor and his word has no value. The sneaky way he did this shows that he knows it was wrong.

It is telling to see that YOU admire Daley!!

[Kolesar]

34. That was cool

Illinois does not miss another playground for orthodontists.

[DonP]

35. Yeah, or those annoying Life Flights to Northwestern, Loyola and Stroger

So you approve of ignoring the FAA or any other Federal regulatory body based on your personal preferences, as long as he had a D behind his name?

Feel the same way about the BATFE?

Daley is an an old fashioned bully who has let the police force go without a union contract for over 4 years, has let the force run 1000+ officers below normal roster, but hasn't missed a chance to hand out contracts and kept Millions of $ of the the TIF (Tax Incremental Funding) funds in his hip pocket while the schools, Police and Fire Department do without the staffing and equipment they need.

Nice hero you have there..

[Kolesar]

36. Daley was one of the mayors who led on climate protection when the federal government ...

... was actually obstructing progress. You recall--it was the bush years.

The climate is an issue that will determine the fate of mankind, as opposed to the right wing "the government is going to take your guns" wedge issue.

[PavePusher]

39. Well, that certainly ameliorates every other fucktarded thing he's done, does it?

By the way, nice try at changing the subject, but I saw that little bottom-deal...

[Kolesar]

41. Meigs was closed for environmental reasons

nice try at changing the subject

[PavePusher]

43. Cite? Preferably with some supporting evidence? n/t

[Kolesar]

44. Google it or get a secretary or something...eom

[rrneck]

45. Are we feeling snippy?

Here, let me get you started...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meigs_Field

In 1994, Mayor Richard M. Daley announced plans to close the airport and build a park in its place on Northerly Island. Northerly Island where the airport was located was owned by the Chicago Park District, which refused to renew the airport lease in 1996.<5> The city briefly closed the airport from the expiration of the lease in October 1996 through February 1997 when pressure from the state legislature persuaded them to reopen the airport.<6>

In 2001, a compromise was reached between Chicago, the State of Illinois, and others to keep the airport open for the next twenty-five years. However, the federal legislation component of the deal did not pass the United States Senate. In a controversial move on March 31, 2003, Mayor Daley ordered private crews to destroy the runway in the middle of the night, bulldozing large X-shaped gouges into the runway surface.<7> The required notice was not given to the Federal Aviation Administration or the owners of airplanes tied down at the field, and as a result sixteen planes were left stranded at an airport with no operating runway, and an incoming flight was diverted. The stranded aircraft were later allowed to depart from Meigs' 3,000-foot (910 m) taxiway.<8>

Mayor Daley defended his actions, described as "appalling" by general aviation interest groups, by claiming it would save the City of Chicago the effort of further court battles before the airport could close. He claimed that safety concerns required the closure, due to the post-September 11 risk of terrorist-controlled aircraft attacking the downtown waterfront near Meigs Field.<9> In reality, closing the airport made the airspace less restrictive. When the airport was open, downtown Chicago was within Meigs Field's Class D airspace, requiring two-way radio communication with the tower.<10> The buildings in downtown Chicago are now in Class E/G airspace, which allows any airplane to legally fly as close as 1,000 feet (300 m) from these buildings with no radio communication at all.<11>

Editorials in the Chicago Tribune pointed out that "the issue is Daley's increasingly authoritarian style that brooks no disagreements, legal challenges, negotiations, compromise or any of that messy give-and-take normally associated with democratic government." <12> Daley himself played the populist against the general aviation pilots who had previously used the airport because of its ideal location.<9>

Interest groups, led by the Friends of Meigs Field, attempted to use the courts to reopen Meigs Field over the following months, but because the airport was owned by the City of Chicago and had paid back its federal aviation grants, the courts ruled that Chicago was allowed to close the field. The FAA fined the city US$33,000 for closing an airport with a charted instrument approach without giving the required 30-day notice. This was the maximum fine the law allowed at the time. In the aftermath, the "Meigs Legacy provision" was passed into law, increasing the maximum fine per day from US$1,100 to US$10,000.<13>

On September 17, 2006, the city dropped all legal appeals and agreed to pay the $33,000 fine as well as repay $1 million in misappropriated FAA Airport Improvement Program funds that it used to destroy the airfield and build the Northerly Island park.<14>

Looks like they wanted to build a park and Daly was a horses ass about it.

[one-eyed fat man]

48. ...........and for a long time, too

Daley's dad tried to built a park there.

Jane Byrne tried.

Harold Washington tried.

Daley is still proud of his actions and claims the lakefront free for all the people.

So Much For 'People's Lakefront,' Couple Learns

When a police patrol told a couple they couldn't sit on the park benches on the beach they were perplexed.

He said a more sympathetic officer was more candid.

"He was very friendly and said 'Welcome to the People's Republic of Daley,'" Dave said.

What did he mean?

"He was being sarcastic about the petty rules that he has to enforce," Dave said.

[cleanhippie]

46. IOW, no, you cannot cite or provide evidence. Got it.

[PavePusher]

50. So, unsubstantiated claim... check.

Fail on rules of debate... check.

[PavePusher]

38. Are you seriously implying that...

"the ends justify the means"?

Even when neither the ends nor the means are justifiable?

Wow.

[DonP]

47. Hey wise guy! Daley put sod on the roof of city hall so shut up!

Obviously you Philistines don't appreciate what a great and green mayor Daley is.

To truly appreciate his green credentials, like our poster friend, you just have to ignore the multiple lawsuits by neighboring states for Daley's dumping of untreated sewage into the lake when his Deep Hole storm drain tunnel fills up. And don't pay any attention to his proposal two weeks ago to let the Chicago river, with its untreated effluents, drain freely into lake Michigan again.

And when you and your group are looking out through the chain link fence in your "Free Speech Zone" or your 80 year old uncle is arrested and charged for defending his own home from home invaders, just keep telling yourself he's a "green" mayor and he cares about the planet so much you forgive him all the other crap he does. Make sure you deliver that message of "Green Joy" to the Englewood mothers that have buried their children because your fucking hero Daley cut the cops in their district by over 70%.

Keep your green fucking mayor until his indictment.

Do I really need to add sarcasm tags everywhere?

[PavePusher]

51. That....

was beautiful!

:rofl:

[SteveM]

52. You mean all that green stuff they put in the water? Yech.

[Kolesar]

53. Public First Amendment rights are not an issue to you

because what you do is sit in a chair and complain on the internet. Very safe, and very comfortable, too

[shadowrider]

54. Admittedly, you have points

Which make me chuckle. I'll have to add you to the list of daily chuckle providers.

[oneshooter]

55. Yes, unfortunately they are hidden by his hat! n/t

[DonP]

56. Is there a hollow empty sound down here in the Gungeon?

Why yes, it's another "know nothing" spouting off into his oatmeal box amplifier in mom's basement.

Someone who probably bears a strong resemblance to Comic Book Guy, has no idea what I do for a living, where I live or anything else about me.

You are so perceptive ... and pointless.

You know I really miss all the guys that used to come down and tell us we weren't "real Democrats" if we didn't totally agree with them. Whatever happened to all those guys?

Have yourself a real nice time worshipping at the new Daley altar in Millennium park. You know, thats the big park that he sold a big chunk of to the Pritzker family (Hyatt Hotel Corp.) group for their self named "museum". He's just so green you can see it from space I bet.

Thank you for the epic and total fail. Now go back to GD where you can get away with making things up sometimes.