What to do when confronted with 3 to 1 odds?

[Glassunion]

I have been working midnights in my company's remote locations lately.

Last night we had a situation. We arrived at one of our sites, and as usual, there were people loitering at the site(our business seems to attract 18-20 year olds who have nothing better to do). We call them "Rats", because no matter how hard you work at ridding yourself of the problem, they keep coming back. I also think they carry the plague.

Anyway... The individuals loitering (under a sign that read "No Loitering Enforced by Police" I might add) were not causing any issues, they were just taking up the entire out-door seating area preventing paying customers from using them. There were two of us performing the system updates and there were about 15 people loitering. We decided, as we usually do, to not do anything about the people loitering and just go in and do our job. While we were on site and speaking with the employees, we found that these people tend to loiter there every night, they leave a huge mess and they tend to scare off customers on occasion. I spoke with the outside manager(he's called that, because he works outside and he's a manager) and he tells me that there is nothing that he can do. He says that he is all alone out there, and there are always large groups of people that he is afraid of confronting by asking them to leave. I would agree.

Once we were done with our system updates, we were hanging out at the location to insure there were no issues with the update before we left. We were parked in the back corner of the location and standing in the loading zone next to our van. When a Dodge Ram Turbo-Diesel 3500 My penis is way too small and I am suppressing homosexual feelings with my "Green is Gay!" bumper-sticker Red-Neck Mobile(no offense to Dodge owners or Red Necks) with the diesel exhaust stacks drives around the back of the building, sees us, speeds up and drives straight at us. My co-worker literally moved out of the way at the last second(no exaggeration).

My company has a no-guns policy, so I was not carrying and we were in a company car, so no gun in the car either. I was however carrying Mace. I would be no good whatsoever in a fist fight. My co-worker however would be. I have seen him compete in Jujitsu and I can see the practical uses for it in a self defense situation in the real world. Watching him compete I must say Jujitsu looks like two guys in a bar fight, only they are wearing white pajamas.

At that point the two of us were quite pissed. Our new Red-Neck(no offense to Red Necks) friend jumps out of the truck, did not even look at us and walks over to his 5 other buddies who were already there. I could tell that any confrontation whatsoever, no matter how polite would have ended up in a fight. So here we are 3 to 1 odds, no local police department(the nearest state police station is 15min away), local law states that he did commit attempted vehicular assault... What are a Super-Asian and a Black guy(with no skills) to do in the middle of nowhere in the middle of the night in Redneckville?

I would like to see what others would have done in a similar situation. I'll follow up later and let everyone know what we did. Remember, one of my rules for carrying a firearm is that I would never do something with a firearm that I would not do without one.

*Note: There are different types of Rednecks. I'm one too, but not like these ass holes.

[Junkdrawer]

1. And if you had a gun?

:shrug:

[Glassunion]

2. Like I said. If I had a gun, my response would have been the same. nt

[Cirque du So-What]

3. I come down on the side of gathering info & reporting to police later

Doing nothing is not an option, however. The driver needs to be reported, even if nothing comes of it this time around. At least there's a record of the incident that could be used in case he repeats that menacing behavior. Knowing a thing or two about bullying behavior, I can assert that this fellow will persist unless pressure is brought to bear.

[Glassunion]

14. You are correct. That is exactly what we did.

I want to start by saying that there was nothing more that I wanted to do, than to knock this guy's teeth in. I knew for a fact I probably would have had my ass handed to me if I did, however even knowing that, I still "wanted" to get just one good punch in on this guy's face.

However, it is not a solution to the problem. I cannot justify punching someone because it would make me feel better.

After this ass hat got out of his truck, my co-worker and I just took a deep breath and luckily we had an opportunity to talk it out. We joked about it for a little bit, and talked out how the best solution to the problem would be. This quickly calmed us down. Here is what we discussed.

1. Should we ignore the situation? Sure, we could, but the employees that have to work there every day, will have to deal with this individual again in the future. It is unacceptable to ignore the situation.
2. Should we ask them to leave? Our solution to that was that no matter how we approached them, most likely it would have ended in blows.
3. We joked about vandalizing the truck, but it was just us joking around. Although I would have loved to put a "Honk for Gay Rights!" sticker on his bumper. Right on top of his "Green is Gay!" one. But that would just bring us down to his level.
4. Calling the police and waiting would have been futile. Unless you are bleeding it takes the State Police about an hour to show up to take a report. And after speaking with the employees, they are told that they cannot call the police about loitering issues. It is not an emergency according to dispatch.

5. So our last option was to get all of the information off of the truck. One thing that I failed to mention was that the individual's truck was a contractor's vehicle. So there was a business name, phone number, LLC #, etc... on the truck. We recorded all of the information on the vehicle, and we also got the description of the individual.

After speaking with the area's district manager, and our security department, here is what is going to happen.

1. Security is pulling the video recordings of the evening and if it can be determined from the recording that an assault took place we will press charges.
2. We are going to have our legal department contact the company and inform him that if he is unwelcome at all of our 125 locations and if he is found at any of our sites, we will charge him with trespassing.

Via the LLC# on the truck, we found that this landscaping "company" has only 1 employee and the company address is most likely this individual's home(google street view showed it as a home). Their tax filings show the company only makes about $35k a year, which makes me wonder about this guy's business practices. How is it that he can have over 20 business contracts(brags about it on their website) alone and only have 1 employee with an annual filing of $35k? The truck alone with the packages that I could tell he had start at over $50K. Now I know that he may hire contract help to do the landscaping and snow-plowing, but do I feel he may be hiring undocumented day-workers to avoid fair wages and avoiding taxes. But that is me just making shit up.

I'll bookmark this and let everyone know how it pans out.

[Pavulon]

4. Not jack shit.

call the cops, "saw a gun in the guys waistband" in front of my business and leave. If you carry you have to be more passive than if you were NOT carrying.

[one-eyed fat man]

12. Isn't that what the "manager" in Costco did?

'....call the cops, "saw a gun in the guys waistband" in front of my business'

He did spice it up a little by claiming to be a Green Beret and telling 911 some guy was trashing the store, seemed high on something, waving a gun around and wouldn't leave. You know, to give the cops a sense of urgency, is all.

Dispatch sends three squads and a helicopter. Cops showed up expecting a crazy and shoot him 7 times, including 5 times in the back while he was on the ground.

I'd call that a bad idea.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=337129&mesg_id=337129

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=331935&mesg_id=331935

[Glassunion]

13. Agreed. And rest assured that was not one of the measures that we took. nt

[geckosfeet]

5. They were being a$$hats - but you did good to avoid coming to blows.

Calling the police would probably be better done by the 'outside manager', who is sounds to me, is dim or partially sympathetic to these people - or else he would have dealt with them long ago.

Another issue is, that these thugs may in fact be off duty police or connected. They themselves may be carrying and just looking for an excuse to "pull out their weapon." You just never know. Violence is best avoided when possible.

[Glassunion]

6. The Outside Manager is neither.

He is frustrated at best. He sees that there is nothing to do. How do you ask 5,6 or even 12 ass hats not to loiter in a town where the police rarely come?

[azureblue]

8. oh, that small a town

used to live in one of those. The cops rarely came, and always late.

Solution: Go to the chief of police, tell him the problem, and how long it has been going on.. If you have vids of it to take with you, it will get his attention. Ask the cops to stop by during the times the rednecks are causing trouble and ask the cops to enforce the no loitering law. Ask the chief how long it will take a cop to arrive if you call them about trouble. Then tell the chief that you have seen them with firearms, and the business owner are going to have guns inside for protection. Suggest mace, too. Tell the chief that they offenders will be told that they are loitering and they have five mutes to leave, then the cops will be called, and then the establishment will enforce the no loitering law, if the cops do not arrive, and hold the offenders for the cops. If this is a place that serves food or beverages, tell the chief that his "boys" can stop by for free coffee and sodas any time they want. And a free meal / sandwiches, if they stay a while. If it's a donut shop you're talking about, what the hell is wrong with your local cops? they trying to diet or something?

[geckosfeet]

10. Agreed. "Outside manager" is not doing his job. If he does not know what to do

he needs to ask his boss for advice.

The video idea is good one. Perhaps install outside video - he is the 'outside manager' so presumably that's his domain. Maybe a simple webcam - sounds like you are in a position to help out with that.

[Katya Mullethov]

11. Run this onna loop

http://listen.grooveshark.com/#/search/songs/?query=night%20of%20the%20rednecks

[azureblue]

7. a few things

1- that was attempted vehicular assault / attempted murder. You should have called the cops right there and pressed charges. Since you are employees, you next get a restraining order to keep the ID10Ts away from the business.

2- Install outdoor sprinklers and a sound system. Put up a a sign that says "warning! New sprinkler system under installation. Do not sit here as the timer is faulty and the water may come on at any time. Play classical music on the sound system-

3- suggest putting in a vid surveillance system, cause you know one of those trailer trash will try to tear out the speakers. If they see they are being recorded, it will cut down on the rowdy attitude.

4- The business can put up "no loitering" signs and enforce them. Put them up with the local anti loitering law code on it.

[cleanhippie]

9. Seems reasonable to me.

It is unfortunate that law abiding people have to jump through so many hoops when the idiots have to do none, but thats the way it is. I like the idea of bad music and sprinklers. I would actually just put up a sign that said "sprinklers come on unexpectedly between xx and xx" and when the usual crowd starts to show up, turn them on before they sit down.

Or close the outside area at night.....


Or call the cops every night......night after night.....

[LawnKorn]

17. Have the 'outdoor' manager hire a private security company

Have the manager hire a licensed, bonded security firm to come by the the business location periodically and encourage the rats to leave. Let the rent a cops do all of the heavy lifting, and insulate the business from retribution of the loitering hoodlums. As another poster said, some of these guys may be off duty cops, or they may be engaged in some type of less than legal business. Having the rent a cops walk up and (overtly) survey the crowd with still and video cameras may put the fear into the hoodlums and send them packing.

[GreenStormCloud]

15. OOPS. I voted before I read your further information post.

I voted "ignore - walk away" because I thought that you didn't have any proof of the incident and that you would have had to walk over to the truck to get the license tags. Big signs on the door can be read from further away. If I had read further, I would have voted for "collet info - file report".

Personally, no matter what the company policy, I would discretely carry. A Ruger LCP can be completely concealed. What the boss doesn't know can save your life.

But even with a gun, I would still seek to avoid a confrontation.

[Glassunion]

16. I love carrying my LCP... I hate shooting it.

Every time I go to the range to shoot it, I come home with a bleeding index finger if I go through more than 1 box of 50 rounds.

My boss just picked up the LCR. I like it. Even without any weight behind it, it shoots very well and does not bite. The only complaint that I have is with the muzzle flash. I could not tell where my shots ended up(the range lighting is pretty low) until my eyes adjusted from being blinded with every shot.

[SteveM]

18. You made the right choice. Same kind of thing happens here...

at a local restaurant with outside seating. In our case, a few "homeless" people come through bugging people for cash, cigs, rides, beers, etc., or start cussing real loud and pointedly bugging other patrons. Management is quickly on their respective cases, and the punks are told to leave, or risk being arrested by police. Usually they clear out without the need for LEO. One thing is for sure:

If you don't CLEAN IT OUT immediately and on a regular basis, WORD SPREADS AND THEY COME BACK IN GREATER NUMBERS. "Punking," is becoming a sort of fad, and not just on the Internet. It should NOT BE TOLERATED.

The restaurant is almost completely free of this type of thing, and the punks know to stay away.

[oneshooter]

19. Fix Bayonets? n/t

[Katya Mullethov]

20. We're surrounded , good .

[Glassunion]

22. Chesty?

"We're surrounded.That simplifies the problem."
"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time"

[Katya Mullethov]

21. Doesn't apply in this particular instance

But the rule of thumb is to take out the loudmouth first ,and then start working the room .

[Glassunion]

23. You sound like my father...

"Find the idiot who looks like he is in charge of the group. Hit him so hard that when he wakes up he will be hearing Christmas music. Then go at them hard and fast and whatever you do, don't stop moving. They won't expect that. You'll have the element of surprise".

[Katya Mullethov]

24. More like a cross between Tommy Lee Jones and Peter O'Toole

The chicks really dig it when I talk Spanish .

[Glassunion]

25. Update / was in court today

Red-neck plead down vehicular assault. 10 days in jail to be served on the weekends, no probation. Judge stated if ever found on any of our properties he will be trespassing.

I think that's fair.

[spin]

26. All is well that ends well. I think things worked out good. (n/t)