The FBI gun crime stats for 2009 are out today...

[benEzra]

...and I don't think the vultures are going to celebrate them. Crime, including gun crime, continued to decline in spite of the bad economy.


http://www.fbi.gov/page2/september10/crime_091310.html

Rifle homicide declined again to what is probably an all time low, even though "assault weapons" accounted for the majority of civilian rifles sold, just as they have for the last several years. All styles of rifles combined, including so-called "assault weapons", accounted for only 2.55% of murders in 2009, or 348 out of 13,636.

Detailed breakdown:

Total murders...........................13,636.....100.00%
Handguns.................................6,452......47.32%
Firearms (type unknown)..................1,928......14.14%
Other weapons (non-firearm, non-edged)...1,864......13.67%
Edged weapons............................1,825......13.38%
Hands, feet, etc...........................801.......5.87%
Shotguns...................................418.......3.07%
Rifles.....................................348.......2.55%

It appears that those evil protruding rifle handgrips haven't caused the sky to fall after all...

[SomeGuynTexas]

1. I think the response you're mostly likely to get is "New here aren't you?"

LOL...I haven't quite figured out why so many people tell *me* that.

Must be codespeak for something....

[cleanhippie]

5. Maybe its because you failed to post a comment relevent to the subject at hand?

How about you try that.

[Spoonman]

17. Pot.... meet kettle...... n/t

[cleanhippie]

43. I'm not the one complaining, what are you on me about?

Keep your pot AND your kettle.....well, you can share the pot if you want.

[benEzra]

18. No, I've been here since December 2004, actually...

I came here from the John Kerry forum (now Common Ground Common Sense) after Senator Kerry tried the same DLC/Third Way "talk up huntin', demonize nonhunters" approach on guns that was tried in 1994, 1996, 1998, 2000, and 2002, with exactly the same result (it bombed, because most gun owners are nonhunters, duh).

I decided it was more productive to light a candle than to curse the darkness, so to speak. :-)

[SteveM]

23. We all know BenEzra is as old as the hills 'round here.

[Callisto32]

27. You have a low post count?

Just sayin'.

[hendo]

101. We all had a low post count once. NT

[ManiacJoe]

102. That is what triggers the "welcome to DU" or

"you are new here" response.

[derby378]

2. Many thanks! K&R! (n/t)

[Remmah2]

3. You wonder why gun crime is down?

With this economy, who can afford ammo?

[OrangeGrapes]

7. Knives are cheaper.

Maybe knife-related crime will rise.

[benEzra]

19. No, ammo sales in 2009 were an all-time record high, 14.033 billion rounds.

Law-abiding shooters use more ammo in a single range session than the average criminal will use in a lifetime, I suspect.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

75. You don't need alot of ammo to commit a crime.

It costs more to eat a good meal than to fill up most guns' magazines.

For example, my self-defense rounds I carry in my handgun are VERY expensive compared to practice ammo. I rarely ever practice with defensive ammo because of the price. Despite that filling a magazine with it only costs me about $7.

[greiner3]

4. Well;

All the 'arms' total percentage is 2/3 of the total of murders in the US in 2009. I guess axes, baseball bats, knives and other weapons were not handy when someone wanted to kill someone else.

Oh, don't forget chainsaws in the above list of murder weapons.

[SteveM]

24. Well;

One thing is sure: "More guns = more crime" doesn't seem to hold up.

[cleanhippie]

6. Brady and VPC have anything to say? I'm sure a few heads are exploding.

[derby378]

8. I just heard a Brady backer lament "pro-gun" laws in Chicago

What pro-gun laws? Daley is still thumbing his nose at the Second Amendment while still managing to not cut down crime rates in that city.

[old mark]

10. This has been the pattern for at least 12 years - the "Brady Bunch" are liars. nt

[onehandle]

9. 'Vast majority of murders are carried out with guns.'

Same as it ever was...

[cleanhippie]

11. ZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz.....

Boring! Be more funny!

[benEzra]

21. And yet our gun-murder rate continues to fall...

...a very good thing by any objective measure. Not that I was expecting gun control advocates to celebrate it, since it tends to undermine the "ZOMG GUNZ R GOING TO KILL US ALL!!!" meme. :eyes:

[friendly_iconoclast]

57. I imagine a couple of posters here screamed "GAHD-DAMMIT!" like Cartman when they read the stats.

And frankly, I hope it ruined their entire week. I'm sick of the gun-control fearmongers serving as useful idiots for

the Republicans inside the Democratic Party , and am enjoying a little well-earned schadenfreude reading some of the pissy reactions

posted here.


Juvenile? Yes. But when some people refuse to acknowledge good news because it fucks with their (not-so-well)

hidden agenda- well, they deserve a little vituperation in my book.

[jazzhound]

72. nohandle is right in synch with his "control" celebrating

heroes.

As Don Kates has also pointed out, you would think that this type of news would at the very least be greeted with intellectual curiosity by the "controllers" who claim to be in the debate for the public good. Their conspicuous silence speaks volumes........and proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that their only agenda is to remove guns from society rather than to protect/save lives.

[merqz]

106. Or all the people here who were SURE the recession would result

in a massive spiking of crime, etc.

Hasn't happened... yet. May happen. But I am not seeing any mea culpas from them either.

[oneshooter]

55. The vast majority of legal defensive shootings were done with guns!! n/t

[Euromutt]

74. Do I need to make with the 14th century homicide figures again?

From 1300 to 1350, most of England had homicide rates higher than D.C.'s at the height of the crack wars (Oxford had a homicide rate around 110/100,000, compared to D.C.'s historic high of 80.6). Parts of Germany were worse, with homicide rates approaching 200/100,000. And they didn't even have guns in Europe!

[friendly_iconoclast]

85. 'One hundred percent of murder victims are dead'

Does the method matter?

To quote All In The Family:

"Would you feel better if they was pushed outta windows?"

[TreasonousBastard]

12. What's your point? 67% of the homicides were committed with firearms...

and most of those with handguns.

[Pullo]

20. Does that mean scary-looking black rifles with portruding hand grips should be banned?

That used to be all the rage, although the idea doesn't seem quite as hip as it once was.

[benEzra]

22. Mostly illegally possessed handguns wielded by people with prior criminal records, to be precise.

Which means, of course, that we should redouble our efforts to outlaw modern-looking rifles and to harass lawful, nonviolent, and background-checked handgun owners as much as possible. :eyes:

[SteveM]

25. And your point/solution is?.... nt

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shadowrider]

35. -- snort --

[dmallind]

79. ...and yet fewer of them, despite soaring gun sales....NT

[frebrd]

13. K&R n/t

[proteus_lives]

14. Only one of the usual suspects on this thread.

Facts don't fit in with their authoritarian fantasies.

[X_Digger]

15. LEOKA will be out in October.

(That's Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted.)

Glad to see 2009 continued the previous trend and dropped.

[Hoopla Phil]

16. Let me get this straight. Hands, feet, etc account for 5.87% while Rifles (which

includes the dreaded "assault rifle") only account for 2.55%?! It would appear to me that those that want to ban "assault rifles" have their priorities crossed.

[chibajoe]

28. Over twice as many people were killed by hands and feet than rifles, so

obviously, we should ban hands and feet. :sarcasm:

[HERVEPA]

30. Impeccable lack of logic

And yes, I saw the sarcasm thingy.

[tridim]

29. None of these figures mean you should be able to own a bazooka.

Or that background checks should be abandoned.

Or that we need less regulation and more guns on the street.

[spin]

33. True, but they do indicate that we don't need new draconian gun laws

or another assault weapons ban.

It would appear that overall current gun laws are working well. We could possibly tweak some and provide better funding to the NICS background check system to allow states to input records quicker.

We might also push to eliminate roadblocks to honest citizens owning and carrying firearms such as exist in Chicago and Illinois.

[oneshooter]

34. But you can legally own a bazooka.

All you have to do is apply for a Destructive Device permit, undergo a realy anal federal background check,and pay $200 for the "tax". Now each rocket requires the same background check, $200 tax and a full decription of how it is desposed of.

Simple really.

Oh, and have the money to purchase these items.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[Marengo]

36. What's so threatening about a bazooka?

Seems harmless enough:


Ohhhh, perhaps you mean a rocket lancher? I would recommed using more technical terminology if you wish to be taken seriously.

[tridim]

39. Mr. Gun, right above you, disagrees.

:shrug:

[SteveM]

47. Oh, he found a nail-hold on a sheer cliff. I prefer bubblegum. nt

[Marengo]

63. That's Nice

But doesn't change the fact that usage of slang when proper technical terminology exists might indicate a lack of knowledge in the subject area. Just a friendly word of advice if you wish to be taken seriously.

[Euromutt]

76. Difference is that oneshooter was actually referring to...

...the Rocket Launchers, 2.36 inch, anti-tank, M1, M1A1, M9 and M9A1, i.e. the specific models that were actually nicknamed "bazooka" as opposed to using the term as a catch-all for rocket launchers in general.

[benEzra]

37. Do you want to show me who is trying to repeal the NFA restrictions on bazookas?

Or who is trying to repeal the NICS background check law that even the NRA supports?

Are you even a TEENY bit pleased that all forms of gun violence continue to decline in this country? That the expiration of the 1994 Feinstein non-ban in '04 was followed by a long and steady decrease in rifle misuse? Or is the failure of the "rivers of blood in the streets" meme just so damn disappointing that you can't be glad that we're making real progress in, you know, fighting violence?

Oh, wait, I forgot. "Fighting violence" is supposed to mean criminalizing the lawful and nonviolent, not reducing murder and assault. My bad. :sarcasm:

[slackmaster]

40. Four Straw Men in one brief reply

Well done, tridim.

[tridim]

41. I know the gungeon agenda, people don't post these things without motive.

[shadowrider]

44. If, by "agenda", you mean we support ALL rights, instead of pick and choose, I'm guilty. n/t

[benEzra]

46. Yep, I do have a motive. Here it is:

Namely, to underscore the fact that the gun-control lobby's "sky is falling" Chicken Little rhetoric about protruding rifle handgrips, carry licensure, and whatnot is abject BS.

I don't want to repeal the National Firearms Act. I do want to avoid the idiocy of new bans on the lawful and responsible ownership of popular civilian guns and other such pointless harassment, and I want to keep the Third Way gun-ban zealots from hijacking the party again like they did in the '90s.

But looking up and down the thread, it looks like I was right...I don't see too many gun-control advocates being glad about the reduction in gun violence sans new restrictions. I suppose that's because the restrictions themselves, not violence reduction, are the real goal...

[friendly_iconoclast]

56. Some people would sooner lick a New York sidewalk than admit they were wrong....

....or that their stated motives aren't their real motives.

[friendly_iconoclast]

61. On that note, I wonder where our most prominent advocate of registration is?

It's kind to argue for the neccessity of handgun registration in order to reduce crime when crime is on the downswing without it...

[safeinOhio]

92. I'm right here.

and if the numbers ever start to jump up? I still say using current trends can backfire on your arguments as trend tend to trend.

[friendly_iconoclast]

98. Still plumping for a handgun transfer tax as well?

As I recall, it was also going to 'reduce crime'---or so we were assured.

[safeinOhio]

91. google "adrian schoolscraft"

seems crime stats have been manipulated for some time now. when officer Schoolcraft was run out of the NY PD for not going along with the plan and brought it to the attention of the courts. low and behold, the crime rate in the 81st jumped a whole bunch. seems the brass is pushed to plea down or just hide violent crime stats across the county.

[SteveM]

48. And rain is wet.

[slackmaster]

49. You are absolutely right that people don't post here without motive

Neither do you, and you clearly don't understand the agenda.

[Hoopla Phil]

65. Yep, just like those first amendment advocates. Come to think of it, Rosa Parks should have

just given up her seat, don't ya think.

[Euromutt]

99. Obviously there's a motive

Namely to illustrate that the oft-repeated trope that "more guns => more violent crime" is not only not supported, but in fact contradicted by empirical evidence.

Cripes, somebody might have started a thread for the purpose of influencing opinion; that must be nefarious! Why don't you tell onehandle that next time he posts one of his comment-free police blotter stories?

[Marengo]

103. Perhaps you could elaborate? N/T

[SteveM]

45. Michael Dorn (Star Trek Next Gen) owns a Sabre fighter jet.

Who asked for abandonment of background checks?

If the regs are unconstitutional, there should be less. Who says there needs to be "more guns on the street?"

[proteus_lives]

58. Worf owns a fight jet?

Cool, how much did the cloaking device cost?

[SteveM]

87. I didn't catch a glimpse of his flight suit! nt

[Euromutt]

77. Yes, but does it have armament?

Without its .50-cals or an explosive payload, a jet fighter is purely the FAA's business, not the ATF's.

[one-eyed fat man]

82. Interesting problem.

There is a helicopter maintenance company in Montana that specializes in refurbishing surplus US military helicopters. They buy surplus components and parts from the Defense Reutilization and Marketing Office (DRMO) by the truckload. One of the helicopters they modified for use in logging is the AH-1G Cobra attack helicopter (Bell 209). The minimal airframe coupled with robust weight carrying capacity made it a pretty good option and they were able to certify the aircraft in the RESTRICTED category.

Where it gets interesting is the owner of the business had carefully assembled for himself, out of these tons of surplus parts, a completely operational Viet Nam era attack helicopter. Complete with all the functioning armament, to include the M129 grenade launcher and mini-gun in the M28 chin turret, and the M200 rocket pods for 2.75 inch rockets. All the bureaucrats had been satisfied. All the parts were legal DoD surplus, documented on Form 97. All the weaponry was properly registered with the ATF. The helicopter had an airworthiness certificate from the FAA.

Aside from occasional movie work, the owner of the helicopter had fun shooting up stuff on his Montana ranch once in a while.

The the existence of this machine came came to light on a TV show and there was a hue and cry. One commentator went so far as to publicly conjecture "what if the owner of the helicopter shot up the Super Bowl."

All the agencies were hounded to take legal action. Legislation was proposed in Congress to force the owners of military surplus to render it unusable, at their expense, if ordered by the DoD at any future date. In the end, the FAA took an administrative action and revoked that serial number helicopter's Type Certificate, effectively grounding him in the US.

Last I heard, the old man hadn't shot up anything. The helicopter is still in its Montana hangar.

[oneshooter]

83. The way the proposed law was written

Even Springfield 1903"s and M1 Garands would have been included. Plus all jeeps, m37 trucks , 45 automatics, aircraft, and any former military equipment. All would have been made inoperable.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[SteveM]

88. Don't think so. I saw a video of him flying over the Golden Gate...

if that didn't tempt anyone, I don't know what would!

[lawodevolution]

105. then stop trying to ban guns

because the gun control groups have only caused a massive increase in gun ownership by motivating people to buy more guns.

[NoSheep]

31. I heard a story on This American Life this weekend that would suggest you can't

trust these statistics. Many crimes, apparently, are "classed down" by police departments to make their numbers look better.

[jeepnstein]

32. And that downgrading...

has some very serious repercussions when it is discovered. It's best to just let the chips fall where they may.

It was a fascinating story. I sat in my car until it was finished.

[NoSheep]

53. I was pretty blown away by it. Quotas...and there was no where for the whistleblower to turn

except the press.

[jeepnstein]

78. As a cop...

it was especially disturbing. When departments put pressure on to solve crime by ignoring it, well, that sets off all sorts of warning signals. I was always taught that no matter what you do, never ever falsify a report. It'll come back and bite you in the end.

It's the same old story. Some folks prefer to hide from the truth when in reality the truth always prevails.

[benEzra]

38. Even if the stats were a few percent higher, year-to-year comparisons would still be valid...

and don't forget that downgrading is WAY easier to do for assault and property crime than for, say, murder and manslaughter, which is what I'm most concerned about.

There's also the fact that a lot of jurisdictions have a vested interest in making things look *worse* than they really are in order to justify budget increases and Cool New Stuff.

[Glassunion]

42. Yeah... Cool new stuff!!!

(Remember... Choose Peace)

[Callisto32]

89. Everybody knows...

you need APCs to serve no-knock warrants on non-violent marijuana offenders...

[NoSheep]

52. The most serious case in that story was a serial rapist whose crimes were

reported as something really petty...misdemeanors

[safeinOhio]

93. crime rate has jumped way more

than a "few percent" in the 81st where officer Schoolcraft worked.

[slackmaster]

50. How does one "classify down" murder, forcible rape, or robbery?

Those words have specific meanings that are defined in federal and state criminal statutes.

[NoSheep]

54. You'd be amazed...the worst was serial rape

[slackmaster]

60. Cite, please

:hi:

[PavePusher]

62. I'll assist on this one.

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/?gclid=CJ_f373thaQCFQsCbAodk1aPHw

NYPD is playing (very) dirty pool.

[NoSheep]

80. Thank you for posting the link.

[slackmaster]

81. Some corrupt cops in New York City are understating crime, ergo the FBI's stats are all bogus

Is that what you are trying to say?

[PavePusher]

84. Not at all.

I don't think NYC alone can skew the stats that much for the whole nation.

But they are sure screwing over a lot of innocent New Yorkers and would-be honest police, not to mention dirtying the efforts of the entire local law enforcement effort.

[Glassunion]

73. Simple

Murder = unexpected life stop
Robbery = Realocation of property via strong words or a nasty look.

[safeinOhio]

94. Plea deals for major crimes

and that adds to higher conviction rates. A plus for the brass 2 ways.

[Euromutt]

100. Ask the Japanese police

It's quite surprising how many homicides in Japan get classed as suicides by the police, because it allows them to close the case and not have to mount an investigation (not least because the Japanese cops are utterly incompetent at conducting investigations and gathering evidence, which is why they prefer to beat confessions out of suspects).

In one instance in 1980, according to the cops, the victim had supposedly managed to tie his own ankles and wrists and then throw himself off the Ikusaka Dam. The only reason the truth got out was because the murderer (who was serving time for a drugs offense) confessed in 2000. And even then it took three years for the cops to confirm the story, by which time, the statute of limitations for criminal prosecution (15 years) had elapsed, as had the statute for a civil suit for damages (by the victim's next-of-kin; 20 years), so the killer literally got away with murder.

And then there's the fact that in the event of a domestic murder-suicide, Japanese policy is to rule all the victims as suicides. In the US, if you murder your wife, mother-in-law, and two children, and then kill yourself, it's four homicides and one suicide. In Japan, it's five suicides.

It does help explain why the Japanese homicide rate is so low, doesn't it? Especially considering the suicide rate (high as it is) is almost certainly underestimated. The reason being that life insurance policies in Japan--as elsewhere--typically contain clauses that the policy is null and void if the person covered dies by suicide, so a lot of Japanese with life insurance policies who commit suicide try to make their deaths look like an accident, and the police (being incompetent at gathering and analyzing physical evidence) and coroners tend to rule that anything that looks like an accident is an accident.

So you've got homicides being ruled suicides, suicides being ruled accidents... I honestly don't know why the Japanese even bother to do more than rule every death "natural causes."

[veganlush]

51. new here aren't you?...n/t

[benEzra]

59. Joined 1 December 2004, and this is post number 10,373; welcome to DU. :-)

new here aren't you?...n/t

Joined 1 December 2004, and this is post number 10,373.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=159849
Welcome to DU. :toast:

Contrary to MSM stereotypes, half of U.S. gun owners are Dems and indies, and most of us don't hunt, as the Third Way/DLC types found the hard way between 1994 and 2004. Pretending we don't exist doesn't make us go away. :)

[veganlush]

86. I was kidding when i said "new here..."

..because someone in the up-thread predicted it would be the response you would likely see. Thank you for the welcome!

[benEzra]

90. LOL! You're welcome! (n/t)

[GreenStormCloud]

64. What happened to More Guns = More Crime?

Millions of new guns were bought during that year, mostly handguns, and crime is down across the board. Surely there will be some anti-RKBA type to tell us how to properly interpret this.

[Hoopla Phil]

66. Shhhhh, you're not supposed to bring that up. n/t

[krispos42]

67. So,gun sales (particularly of semiautomatic tactical rifles) are up...

as are the ammuntion for them...and violent crime is down?


Fascinating.

[X_Digger]

68. Not just up, but record levels..

http://www.ammoland.com/2010/01/13/gun-owners-buy-14-million-plus-guns-in-2009/

Washington, DC --(AmmoLand.com)- Data released by the FBI’s National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) for the year reported 14,033,824 NICS Checks for the year of 2009, a 10 percent increase in gun purchases from the 12,709,023 reported in 2008.

Definitely disproves the 'more gunz = more crime' meme.

[krispos42]

69. Doubtless California's ban on "assault weapons" is the cause of the decrease.

Doubtless, also, it would have been lower if DC and Chicago's handgun bans were in place.

[jazzhound]

71. Re. the California "assault weapons" ban which resulted

in a quadrupling in the number of evil rifles flooding into the state, I can't resist reposting the appropriate Italian proverb:

"A book whos sale's forbidden all men rush to see -- and prohibition turns one reader into three."

[jazzhound]

70. Prior to the gun/ammo sales boom sales to first time

gun owners averaged a steady 25% of total sales. During the boom this percentage jumped to 65%.

Don't know what the percentage is currently, but it is pretty damn obvious that we have a huge new group of new firearm owners.......many of whom will be voting their interests -- and against liars.

[russ1943]

97. Question

Where do you get those figures?
"First time gun owners averaged a steady 25% of total sales. During the boom this percentage jumped to 65%."

[jazzhound]

104. I did some research on my own and interviewed a number

of local (SoCal) gun store/range managers. At one of our local ranges, the store/range manager is an officer of a firearm dealers association and supplied the figure -- noting that dealers across the nation were experiencing the same phenomenon. His report lines up with another article I read on the subject, though I don't recall the source.

At the range closest to my home, one of the managers reported that while their gun sales rose rather modestly, their novice firearm classes were booked six months out --- and unprecedented boom which supports the assertion that first-time gun sales spiked.

[safeinOhio]

95. Old news

S&W stock is dropping like a rock on slower gun sales.

http://www.mysmartrend.com/news-briefs/technical-analysis/investors-surrender-their-shares-smith-wesson-shares-drop-104-swhc

[benEzra]

96. That's because the peak stock price was based on stock-market bidding wars

and not fundamentals. Every time there is an increase in anything, it seems that there is a cohort of investors who think that trendlines can be extrapolated to infinity, even in the face of a by-the-numbers Depression 2.0.

AR-15 type rifles do dominate the market and will continue to do so, so S&W is ultimately much better positioned to ride out the downturn than are manufacturers limited to more "traditional" looking guns (look at Marlin and Winchester). As long as they didn't foolishly spend the boom-related income and didn't incur any stupid debt, S&W should be OK.

I suspect that Glock and Springfield Armory are still doing pretty well also.