Mugger gets killed, when he turns and open fires on his victim, after robbing him

[virginia mountainman]

Nicholas Lewis, 22, who lived on Cleveland Street, died in the hospital a few hours after he allegedly held up Jeffrey Hall, 43, in the 1800 block of Pennsylvania Avenue.

Lewis pointed a semiautomatic pistol at Hall and demanded his wallet, according to a police report. Hall told police he handed his wallet to Lewis, who started to ride away on a bicycle.

But Lewis then turned, according to police, and fired at Hall – missing him and striking his pickup.

Hall then pulled out his licensed pistol and shot Lewis multiple times, according to police. Hall shot Lewis in the torso, the buttocks and the head, according to Lewis' sister, who says she watched him die at Baylor Medical Center at Dallas a few hours later.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/DN-shooting_30met.ART.State.Edition2.3583e60.html

Nice touch at the end of the article, when the sister says "But if he drove off on his bicycle, the best thing you could have done was to call the police." LOL even when his is SHOOTING AT YOU?!?!?! I see someone is not biased in reality.

[Orrex]

1. Seems pretty clear that she meant something different:

"But if he drove off on his bicycle, the best thing you could have done was to call the police."

I'd say she means "If he (simply) drove off on his bicycle, (rather than shooting like an asshole), the best thing you could have done was to call the police."

She's positing a hypothetical resolution to the scene, rather than merely retelling what happened.


Hard to feel sympathy for Lewis, and I'd have to say that Hall sounds like a pretty good shot.

[RaleighNCDUer]

2. Sorry, I don't buy it.

It is safe to assume he was riding away in a bit of a hurry. If he twisted around in his seat to fire back at somebody directly behind him he'd have crashed. I've been riding bikes for 50 years and I would NEVER try something like that - as you are pushing for speed, the torque of the down pressure on the pedals requires both hands on the handlebars, and to twist around on the seat to point a gun at someone behind you would only increase the instability.

The shooter just plugged him in the back as he rode away. If the mugger did shoot, it was in self defense.

ON EDIT:
It might be remembered, there seem to be NO witnesses, so we only have Hall's word that Lewis shot first.

[oneshooter]

4. Of course you don't! n/t

[RaleighNCDUer]

5. You didn't read my explanation of WHY I don't believe it, did you.

Now, tell the truth.

[PavePusher]

8. Sorry, I disagree with your conclusion.

It is quite easy to shoot from a bicycle. I've done it. Accuracy sucks, but you aren't likely to crash unless you're really clumsy.

[RaleighNCDUer]

13. Easy to shoot, unless you are shooting at something directly behind you.

While you are trying to increase your speed.

Go ahead. Try that.

[shadowrider]

16. And where in the article is that tidbit specified? Oh, it isn't? Only that he was riding away?

Well jeez, you're just GUESSING he was riding directly away and using that supposition to prove the bad guy couldn't do what the shooter (good guy) said he did.

Why don't you wait for more facts before making up your mind?

oh, wait.

Nevermind.

[RaleighNCDUer]

17. If he was riding 'away' how could Hall and the pickup not be behind him?

Oh, I know, he could have been going around a traffic circle, so Hall was directly across from him, or even in front of him. Which explains him being shot in the ass just HOW?

Come on, try a little bit of reason.

[shadowrider]

19. Again, why don't you wait for some facts?

HINT: You don't have to be riding directly away from someone to be shot in the ass.

[RaleighNCDUer]

22. Those celebrating the shooter aren't waiting for facts - why should I?

However, the fact is Hall said the kid was riding away and twisted around to shoot at him. If Hall was not directly, or nearly directly, behind the kid, the kid would not have had to "twist around" to point the gun at him.

And, as I laid out above, it is damn near impossible to simultaneously accelerate a bicycle while twisting around and control the bike with one hand. It's physics. Pushing down hard on the pedals tilts the bike, the hands on the handlebars have to compensate - without that compensation, you crash. One hand will not do it as the pressure alternates from one side of the bike to the other as each foot pushes down. A good rider can control a bike one handed while accelerating, but twisting in the seat changes the dynamics and requires much more control.

I just can't buy it, as he told it.

[shadowrider]

28. Once again, let me type slow this time so you can read it clearly

NOWHERE in the article does it say he was DIRECTLY in front of the shooter, ONLY that he was riding away.

Yes, I'm happy the shooter defended himself and took care of the bad guy. It's a clear-cut case of self-defense, at least until an investigation is completed, that anti's refuse to acknowledge.

Wait for some facts before you lynch, ok?

[RaleighNCDUer]

31. Close your eyes and visualize a guy on a bicycle going away from

any given point. How does he NOT present his full back to the point he is riding away from?

[ManiacJoe]

33. That part is simple.

Victim is on the sidewalk; mugger is in the street. Any normal line of departure is a diagonal line.

[SteveM]

60. In hunting, it's a "quartering shot;" that is, the game runs off at an angle.

[Riftaxe]

21. You keep saying he was firing directly behind him...

other then your posterior, where are you pulling this fact from? If i had just mugged someone, I surely would keep an eye on him until i was out of sight for a number of reasons.

[RaleighNCDUer]

23. He was on a bicycle. How do you go away from point A toward

point B without point A being directly behind you?

He could not back away from him to keep an eye on him. You think he maybe zig-zagged as he rode off?

You don't ride, do you?

[PavePusher]

24. I have. It's not difficult.

Again, I make no claims to accyracy, but I would also not place my faith in the inaccuracy of the man who had just robbed and shot at me.

YMMV, of course.

[oneshooter]

25. What about this line in the story?

"But Lewis then turned, according to police, and fired at Hall – missing him and "striking his pickup."

Kinda hard to shoot while dead.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[RaleighNCDUer]

32. Huh? Lewis died several hours later in the hospital.

IF he was shot by Hall first, he had time to return fire.

And that should read "But Lewis then turned, according to Hall, and fired at Hall – missing him and "striking his pickup."

The police report can only repeat what Hall told them, and it's Hall's story I doubt. Like the part about WHY he was there in the first place.

[one-eyed fat man]

51. The hole in your story.

If the guy shot the mugger in the back as he was riding away and then again after the bike fell over, and then took the mugger's gun to shot a hole in his truck like you claim, he forgot a really important "rule." Make sure whoever you shoot is dead so the cops only have to listen to one version of the events.

Unless, the dearly departed was unconcious the whole time, it's a good bet someone asked him what happened. If according to your theory, the muggee used the mugger's gun to shoot a hole in his own truck why didn't he make sure the thug was dead before they cops and ambulance came?

If you went to the trouble to shoot a 'witness' would you leave them alive?

[slackmaster]

9. So, your policy is to leave as quickly as possible and not look back after mugging someone

Got it.

[shadowrider]

10. No witnesses and you ALWAYS doubt the good guy in any story

Just once, once, I'd like to see an anti say, "Yup, the guy was justified and fired in self-defense."

[rrneck]

11. Not enough information to make a call.

Who shot first? Can't say. If it went the way Hall said it did, forensic evidence will help. If Lewis was turning backward to shoot at him the wound channels in his torso will tell the tale. It is possible that Lewis figured he would be easy to catch by a man on foot before he could get the bike up to speed and tried to fire a preemptive shot. It is equally possible that Hall started to give chase, causing Lewis to fire first. It is also equally possible that Hall just started shooting the minute Lewis had his back turned.

Like most of these, you had to be there. One thing's for sure, mugging people is dangerous work.

[Euromutt]

14. Forensic evidence will tell

According to the article, Lewis' shot hit Hall's pickup truck. If there's a bullet hole--or better yet, a bullet--in Hall's truck, and Lewis' handgun shows evidence of having been fired, then that corroborates Hall's story. Doesn't matter how implausible you think it is; evidence trumps speculation.

[RaleighNCDUer]

15. Again, there were no witnesses. Hall knew he had a gun. He could

easily have shot the truck with Lewis' gun to justify his shooting. Or, as I suggested above, Lewis got a wild shot off as he was being gunned down. Was the bullet that struck the truck fired at an even angle to the ground, as if fired by someone riding the bicycle, or angled up, as someone who was already on the ground? Did Lewis have residue on his hand, indicating he fired it?

And, are the cops even going to check? And if they do check, and it indicates Lewis did not fire first, will they release that information? To them, it's just one more bad guy down.

Seriously, WTF was Hall doing in that part of town at that time of night? Scoring drugs? Hunting?

As you say, forensic evidence will tell - but who is listening?

[shadowrider]

20. Man, you have all the facts. Why don't we just electrocute the good guy

and forego the trial? You have it all figured out. Call the cops, they might be interested.

:crazy:

[Euromutt]

43. Again, you have nothing but speculation

And it's not getting any more convincing.

He could easily have shot the truck with Lewis' gun to justify his shooting.

In which case, Hall would have to explain what his prints were doing on Lewis' gun.

Or, as I suggested above, Lewis got a wild shot off as he was being gunned down.

For that to have happened, Lewis would have had to already have had the gun in his hand, and probably had it pointed in Hall's approximate direction at the very least.

Seriously, WTF was Hall doing in that part of town at that time of night? Scoring drugs? Hunting?

Who knows? Who cares? It's not germane to the case. The only question that matters is whether Hall had a reasonable belief that he was under threat of unlawful infliction of permanent injury or death. You're skating dangerously close "WTF was the rape victim doing wearing a skirt like that in that particular bar?"

[one-eyed fat man]

55. Again, please explain.

You have proposed the theory that it was impossible for Lewis to have been shooting from his bike while escaping without crashing. You say "....Hall knew he had a gun. He could easily have shot the truck with Lewis' gun to justify his shooting.

You also point out that "Lewis died several hours later in the hospital. IF he was shot by Hall first, he had time to return fire."

Now, I ask again. If YOU were shooting a potential witness against you. If you used his gun to shoot holes in your truck, would you not make sure he was good and dead BEFORE the cops and ambulance showed up? "Dead men tell no tales," and all that?

Given typical 911 response time in a big city you would have had plenty of time if you'd just delayed the call a while and let him bleed out on the street.

It is quite possible that Lewis tossed off a shot and missed because of the awkwardness of trying to ride off and shoot. He may not even have intended to actually hit Hall, just discourage him from pursuit. Regardless of Hall's actual reason for being there, it wouldn't be stretch that Lewis figured him for a dope buyer. Pretty certain that drug dealers don't yet accept Visa, Mastercard or American Express, he concluded that Hall probably had cash. He just hadn't counted on him having a gun too.

[X_Digger]

27. Was Lewis moving?

But Lewis then turned, according to police, and fired at Hall – missing him and striking his pickup.

Lewis was stable enough to hit Hall's pickup, so I doubt he was pedaling madly 'away in a bit of a hurry'. That's conjecture not backed up by the report.

[RaleighNCDUer]

30. A report based solely on the word of the shooter.

Maybe it did happen just as he said - I laid out two alternatives which also fit the facts.

Considering that Hall was in an acknowledged bad part of town in the wee hours, I would count anything he says as a bit suspect.

Consider - if he did "turn(ed), according to police (who were not there) and fired at Hall" how did he get hit in the butt tocks? Wouldn't the bullets strike his front or side instead? Even if he was at a full 90 degree angle rather than facing Hall, how do the buttocks come into play?

If YOU were on a bicycle, and the guy you just robbed was in a pickup, would YOU come to a dead stop and take a pot shot at him? Or would you head for the nearest alley, one-way street, any place where he couldn't follow?

Frankly, though not talking from personal experience, I wouldn't even try to rob a guy who was in a fucking pickup while I was on a bicycle - 2 1/2 tons on vehicle is itself a weapon, and a bicyclist is VERY vulnerable. If he was out to shoot him the time to do it would be as he robbed him, not once he was trying to get away.

Hall's story just doesn't make sense.

[Euromutt]

34. You did a damn sight more than "lay out alternatives"

I refer you to your post #2 in this thread:

The shooter just plugged him in the back as he rode away. If the mugger did shoot, it was in self defense.

Those are positive claims, and if you want us to accept them as anything other than an expression of your prejudices regarding gun owners, you're going to have to provide evidence, not mere speculation.

Consider - if he did "turn(ed), according to police (who were not there) and fired at Hall" how did he get hit in the butt tocks? Wouldn't the bullets strike his front or side instead? Even if he was at a full 90 degree angle rather than facing Hall, how do the buttocks come into play?

One possibility (note that I use the word "possibility") would be that Lewis fired at Hall while executing a 90 degree turn, but then straightened out his course and was consequently cycling (almost) directly away from Hall when Hall returned fire. In such case, I think Hall's returning fire could be justified on the grounds that Hall might reasonably have believed Lewis wasn't fleeing, but simply maneuvering for another attack.

[RaleighNCDUer]

37. Possibility, but extremely unlikely because, as pointed out elsewhere,

the kid's best chance to shoot Hall would have been while he had the drop on him while robbing him. The fact that he did not shoot Hall then is clear evidence that IF he did indeed rob him (nobody's word but Hall's on that) he had no intention to harm him. If he DID intend to harm him, why wait until he was a distance away, giving Hall a chance to pull a weapon or get behind the wheel of his truck and run him the fuck down? It makes no sense.

And what about the truck? Was Hall in the truck (as he would be if looking to score drugs or pick up a prostitute)? Or was Hall looking for a boy, and the boy told him to fuck off, faggot, which pissed Hall off so he shot him as he rode away. Or is Hall just a really pissed of racist who wanted to shoot him a black boy?

WHY believe him?

[Euromutt]

48. More speculation, mixed with unsupported aspersions on the gun owner

The fact that he did not shoot Hall then is clear evidence that IF he did indeed rob him (nobody's word but Hall's on that) he had no intention to harm him.

No, it's your interpretation. There are any number of possible reasons why the situation might have changed. You're assuming that what's in the newspaper article is everything that was in the police report, and we don't know that.

Hall might have shouted something "disrespectful" after Lewis as he cycled off; or Hall tried to pursue on foot figuring that Lewis wouldn't be able to shoot while cycling; or maybe Lewis had second thoughts about leaving a live witness, or an insufficiently intimidated one; or maybe Lewis didn't want to shoot until he was in the act of leaving so that any witnesses would have minimal time to see him, and he'd have as big a head start as possible on any arriving cop cars. These are all possibilities. They might not be what you might do, but then, armed robbers aren't the most educated or smart people.

And what about the truck? Was Hall in the truck (as he would be if looking to score drugs or pick up a prostitute)? Or was Hall looking for a boy, and the boy told him to fuck off, faggot, which pissed Hall off so he shot him as he rode away. Or is Hall just a really pissed of racist who wanted to shoot him a black boy?

WHY believe him?

I might as well ask why you're so hell bent on insisting that Hall is lying.

The problem with most of your alternative scenarios is that they require the assumption of things that are not in evidence. Hall's version of events requires that there have been a second firearm present, and in your "looking for a rentboy" and "looking to cap a coon" scenarios, Lewis would have had no reason to be carrying one, let alone draw and fire it. So for a "ham sandwich" (to use the New Orleans PD's parlance for an untraceable firearm) to appear at the scene, Lewis would have had to have possessed one, and brought it. And trusted that no hidden witnesses would be present to see him placing it on Lewis' corpse.
Put together, those are some a big assumptions to make, and frankly, it looks to me like you're headed for an unpleasant run-in with Occam's Razor.

Maybe Hall was looking to score some drugs or a prostitute, who knows? And maybe Lewis was a dealer or pimp--or presented himself as one--who decided to rip off the greenhorn customer instead of making an exchange. But armed robbery or aggravated assault don't stop being illegal because the victim was trying to do something else illegal at the time.

There's an odd mentality in this country, no doubt fostered by the "War on Drugs," that once a person uses drugs, or is trying to use drugs, that they cease to have rights and in effect become outlaws. They don't. You can't abduct your tweaker cousin for the purpose of forcing him into rehab and you can't rob a guy because he was looking to score drugs (or a whore) at 2 AM.

[oneshooter]

54. Muggers and thieves are not real high on the intelligence level. n/t

[SteveM]

61. "...Just a really pissed of racist who wanted to shoot him a black boy?" Ah,...

now we have it. Why didn't you just say so in the first place and spare us the logical contrivance?

[friendly_iconoclast]

62. "And picked a poor bicyclist on his way to the all-night shooting range...

...undoubtedly after a hard night of studying and research."



I, too, can make up unlikely scenarios unsupported by fact to reinforce prejudices.

Anyone else want to give it a go?

[X_Digger]

44. You make a number of assumptions that don't stand up to scrutiny..

Considering that Hall was in an acknowledged bad part of town in the wee hours, I would count anything he says as a bit suspect.

Acknowledged by whom? Hall? It's his knowledge (or lack thereof) that you're really talking about. That's dangerously close to blaming the victim. "He shoulda known better being in that part of town.."

how did he get hit in the butt tocks? Wouldn't the bullets strike his front or side instead? Even if he was at a full 90 degree angle rather than facing Hall, how do the buttocks come into play?

You know, your body does turn. If you are turned more than twenty to thirty degrees from me, a bullet fired at you may strike you in a "butt tock" {sic}. Additionally, we don't know whether the "butt tock" was struck from the back or the side.

If YOU were on a bicycle, and the guy you just robbed was in a pickup, would YOU come to a dead stop and take a pot shot at him? Or would you head for the nearest alley, one-way street, any place where he couldn't follow?

You assume that someone willing to set aside the social contract we all live by and is willing to kill Hall for the contents of Hall's pockets is as smart as you; that he uses the same decision-making processes you do. Maybe he thought Hall would be able to identify him. Maybe he thought Hall wasn't afraid enough of him. Maybe he thought Hall didn't show enough 'respect'. Maybe he wanted to see how fast Hall would die.

If he was out to shoot him the time to do it would be as he robbed him, not once he was trying to get away.

Oh so now you're willing to take Hall's word for what happened, when it allows you to make a supposition in support of your version of events? Fancy that.

I really shouldn't even bother- I mean, you're the guy who thought that drum magazines were heavily restricted, and that you can make a rocket propelled grenade.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=4214209#4216721

eta: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x286222#286227

[cleanhippie]

29. Even if he was, he fired first!

Not really sure what you are trying to say here.

[RaleighNCDUer]

35. How do you know that? Because Hall said so?

A white guy in the wrong part of town in the wee small hours - what was he doing there? If he was just driving through, why would he stop for a kid on a bicycle? If he was not just driving through, what was his business? How do we know that ANYTHING he said is true? His just being there at all suggests he was not up to anything good. Maybe looking to score some dope. Or a juicy young boy. Or on a "Death Wish" hunt. Who knows. There were two people who knew what happened, and one of them is dead, shot several times in the back.

[cleanhippie]

36. How do you know he didn't?

[RaleighNCDUer]

38. Which one is dead? nt

[cleanhippie]

56. WHat does that prove?

It proves that something happened and one guy is dead.

[oneshooter]

39. A white guy in the wrong part of town in the wee small hours

So you are the one to decide where people "white guys" should an should not be?

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[RaleighNCDUer]

40. It goes to motive. His claim is self defense. But if it was a drug deal

gone bad, or a rejected homosexual advance, or a plain simple hate crime that kinda of changes the 'self defense' now, doesn't it?

So WHY was the white guy in the wrong part of town at a time when only hookers and criminals are on the street?

[PavePusher]

42. You are aware...

that many people work legit night jobs, right?

And they are then up and about between 10pm and 6am, doing their grocery shopping, laundry, walking the dog, or just going home? And that the Constitution doesn't say anything about "wrong" parts of town, right?

Seriously, your apparent assumptions in the face of a lack of evidence are not helping you.

[Euromutt]

49. Being engaged in illicit activity doesn't necessarily negate the right to self-defense

(I acknowledge I made the following points in my post #48 above.)

Let's say, for the sake of the argument, that it was "a drug deal gone bad"; that Hall was trying to score some cocaine and Lewis, (perhaps falsely) presenting himself as a dealer, decided to rob Hall rather than sell him some product. Even if that were the case, Lewis would still have been committing armed robbery, and if he took a parting shot at Hall, that would still have been assault with a deadly weapon, and Hall would still have been justified in defending himself. You don't lose all your legal protections because you're engaged in criminal activity.

In the event of a "rejected homosexual advance" or a racially motivated murder, Hall couldn't have counted on Lewis having a firearm on him, so he'd have had to bring his own "ham sandwich" and stage the crime scene, out in the open where anyone could happen upon him. Why is that more plausilbe than Hall's story?

[friendly_iconoclast]

50. I note you have produced NO hard evidence of wrongoing on Hall's part

Hint: Conjecture and "I'm agin' em" do not count as evidence.

[HiDemGunOwner]

45. You're wrong...

"The shooter just plugged him in the back as he rode away. If the mugger did shoot, it was in self defense."

Entry wounds on posterior aspect of a body do not conclusively indicate the "victim" was shot while facing away from the shooter...information provided by a police centric organization, Force Science Institute, at a trial of two London police officers accused of shooting a individual in the back of the head proved (in the eyes of the Court)that the individual shot was facing the officers at the time those officers squeezed the trigger and shot...as others have suggested, you might want to wait for more facts before concluding it wasn't a case of legitimate self defense. And, as a former night shift worker, I can tell you there were lots of times I was out late at night in the "bad" sections of town...often that's where you had to go if you wanted something to eat in the wee hours of the night....

http://www.forcescience.org/fsinews/2005/12/how-force-science-saved-2-gun-cops-from-trial-for-murder/

http://www.forcescience.org/fsinews/2005/01/was-suspects-shooting-a-police-execution-detailed-findings-from-force-science-research-center-help-federal-jury-decide/

[mjane]

52. I just read that first article

thanks for posting the link. Fascinating stuff.

[HiDemGunOwner]

57. You're welcome...

lot's of interesting stuff on the site.

[Euromutt]

53. One minor quibble with your phrasing

Entry wounds on posterior aspect of a body do not conclusively indicate the "victim" was shot while facing away from the shooter

It does, if the term "was shot" is used to indicate the moment the bullet(s) entered the victim's ("shootee's"?) body. That moment, however, is not the same moment at which the shooter's brain transmitted the signal to his index finger to squeeze the trigger.

As you very rightly allude, and what many people tend not to understand, is that shooting incidents are dynamic situations; the people involved are more often moving than they stationary, and a body may be in a very different position by the time a bullet strikes from where it was when the bullet was fired.

[HiDemGunOwner]

59. I agree....

Not as artfully phrased as it could have been...and of course you are correct in regards to the dynamic nature of a gunfight.

[TheWraith]

46. If that's the case, the police will figure it out.

Even if the bullet went all the way through, forensic science is very good at determining which wounds are entry and exit wounds, and how the body was positioned at the time.

[SteveM]

58. Been riding, walking driving for 'bout 50 yrs. -- never tried to shoot at someone.

[Demit]

3. I liked this comment to the story:

"Just wondering what a guy from Sachse was doing in deep South Dallas early on Friday morning, and why any guy in a pickup carrying a gun can be robbed by a guy on a bicycle. There are probably good answers to both questions, would be interested in hearing them in any case."

Sounds like somebody who knows the area. Sounds like something more going on than a wallet & a mugger.

[RaleighNCDUer]

6. Well, "Death Wish" was on TCM last week, as I recall. nt

[left coaster]

7. Yeah, that's what I thought right away, too..

Drug buy gone sideways? Maybe.

[rrneck]

12. In the interest of accuracy,

Latasha Lewis said that her brother "had his shortcomings," but that she could not believe he fired at Hall.

"I'm not justifying him robbing," she said. "He was wrong if that's what he did. But if he drove off on his bicycle, the best thing you could have done was to call the police."

Since she just watched her brother die her statement was, I thought, remarkably rational and even handed.

[shadowrider]

18. While it appears even-handed, it isn't

IF the guy just rode away, yes, call the cops

BUT

He was SHOOTING, according to the article, AT the guy he just robbed. In that case, all bets are off.

[rrneck]

41. If he was shooting all bets are off.

But there is a shortage of information here. I'm not fully convinced that the guy on the bike shot first. So far, we only have the word of the guy that shot him.

The way these things usually play out is a failed mugging maybe in combination with a drug deal gone bad, but I need more information to be convinced. I am sure that his sister just watched her brother die and while she as much as admitted that he was probably the instigator of the conflict, under the circumstances she produced a pretty coherent response to the press. Others have done much worse and run for Vice President of the United States.

[The Green Manalishi]

26. good mugger = dead mugger

I like happy endings.

[proteus_lives]

47. Good-bye Mr. Lewis. You will not be missed.