COSTCO Shooting: Scott’s Gun Was Holstered

[Bold Lib]

http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/09/robert-farago/20270/

Mosher testified that he didn’t recall what commands he’d given Scott. A 911 tape revealed that Mosher had told Scott to “drop the gun.” A gun the Scott family lawyer says Scott wasn’t holding. Until he was.

“In fact, he instructed Erik Scott to drop the gun,” Goodman said. “So Erik Scott apparently took out the holster with the gun in it and it fell on the ground.

“Mosher’s going to remember whatever he wants to remember. The fact of the matter was that Erik Scott was surrounded by three officers. He turned around. He was compliant, according to officer Mosher. He was told to drop the gun and he did exactly that.”





This is looking VERY bad for the police.

[oneshooter]

1. And the five shots in the back were for"Officer Safety". n/t

[SteveM]

2. "Put your hands on the steering wheel! Open the door! Put your hands..."

on the steering wheel! Open the door!"

(Repeat as necessary)

[onehandle]

3. posted in wrong thread. nt

[Euromutt]

4. Yeah, the article in the Las Vegas Sun does not make it sound good

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010/sep/23/officer-deadly-shooting-says-man-pointed-gun-didnt/

<Metro homicide detective Peter Calos> explained how after homicide detectives responded to the scene and began investigating the officer-involved shooting, a number of items were recovered outside the store: Several shell casings, a cell phone, and a 9mm Kimber semiautomatic handgun.

The handgun was still in its holster.

Mosher testified that he didn’t know that the gun was in its holster at the time he fired. He said he owns the same type of holster, and the gun could be “easily fired” while in its holster.

He also testified that he didn’t recall ordering Scott to “drop his gun.” But those commands are distinctly heard on the 911 tape that was played for the jury.

The tape was again played for Mosher, who said it was his voice on the tape. He was the only officer issuing commands, he said.

The following is heard in the 911 call: “Put your hands where I can see them now. Drop it! Get on the ground! Get on the ground!”

“He refused to comply with those commands, to show his hands, or to get on the ground,” Mosher testified.

So it would appear that Mosher ordered Scott to drop the gun without even being fully cognizant of the fact that he was telling Scott to do so. I'm also extremely curious what model of holster allows the weapon to be "easily fired" while holstered; every holster I own covers the trigger guard, and there's no way to fire the gun without unholstering it first.

Admittedly, the family's attorney makes a rather lame point when he points that Mosher testified Scott's weapon was a .45 when it was, in fact, a 9mm. Scott's gun is a Kimber, which means it's almost certainly a 1911 design, and .45 ACP is essentially the default caliber for 1911.

The incident with Novotny is less than compelling. With Scott dead, there's nothing to corroborate Novotny's claim that Scott pulled a gun on him. Considering my wife was bitten by a neighborhood dog several months back and it took several weeks for the wounds to heal, I'm not particularly sympathetic to people who fail to adequately secure their dogs, all the more since I'm the parent of a 4 year-old. I'll readily believe Scott told Novotny "you're lucky I don't shoot you and your fucking dog," because I'd be much inclined to tell a negligent dog owner the exact same thing. But I'm not willing to accept without corroborating evidence that Novotny wasn't lying about Scott pulling the gun to make himself look less bad.

The article says Novotny filed a complaint, but what it does not say was that there was any follow-up; very likely, the cops told him "unless you've got witnesses, it's your word against his, and considering your dog got loose and bit him, your word isn't worth very much."

[RamboLiberal]

18. The holster & gun

Steve Marcus A photo of a handgun that was said to belong to Erik Scott is displayed during a coroner’s inquest for Scott at the Regional Justice Center Friday, September 24, 2010

I've had this type of holster - I won't use it for belt carry but bought one similar to put in a Maxpedition bag for carry.

It's just fabric, so it may not be really easy but you could get your trigger finger inside the holster and on the trigger.

I was siding with Scott till I heard about the drugs in his system.

And I have seen shooters on the range with this type of holster try to draw the gun and come up with the holster still attached. Those clips on these cheap holsters are not alway real secure especially if only attached to pants or a thin belt.

Even if Scott was trying to give the cops the gun in the holster that was a fatal mistake.

When confronted he should've never had a hand near that gun even if a cop commanded it.

I really wish they had video. Without it I certainly couldn't judge against the police.

[spin]

20. Trying to save money on a cheap holster is foolish ...

and if you carry our firearm on your belt, it's wise to buy an actual gun belt.

[Abq_Sarah]

24. A 1911 in the holster

Uncocked with the trigger guard covered.

No threat.

As a CCW holder, I am legally required to know exactly what is going on around me before I pull the trigger. If someone pulls that weapon out in that condition and I fire, I will go to jail. Why should cops be exempt from the same standards?

[MichaelHarris]

5. nice

informative source. Doesn't explain what the many witnesses saw though.

Shopper Wendy Wolkenstein, Karen Passarelli-Krause, Linda Bem, John Nikitas, Floor supervisor Jerome Dwight "J.D." Arcano, Javier Torres, a store manager http://www.lvrj.com/news/eyewitness-testimony-continues-103789284.html

Were these observations you forgot or just felt weren't important? LIKE THIS ONE: "Scott formed his hand into the shape of a gun, put it to Lopez's head and said that if someone were to put a real gun to Lopez's head, he would take care of the situation, Lopez testified."

You guys do realize that a number of CWP holders witnessed the shooting and testified this guy did the wrong thing and did not follow the officers orders right?

[X_Digger]

6. Speaking of police reports..

found the one for the moscow AK-totin' man, yet?

[friendly_iconoclast]

7. Witness testimony should be believed over any official records

Especially when said records seem to have mysteriously disappeared....

[cleanhippie]

15. Hahahahahahahahaha!

Nice.

[friendly_iconoclast]

8. Witnesses like the one who 'forgot' what he said to the victim?

Please, do go on....

[Bold Lib]

9. You're actually going to accuse me of leaving something out that was NOT IN what I linked to???

Sounds about your speed. How about some evidence on the AK toten and shooten man you posted about.

I did find this tid bit from your source though.

"Christopher Villareale testified that he watched the entire confrontation unfold after being one of the last shoppers to leave the store. He said he heard an officer order Scott to get on the ground and saw Scott lift his shirt and pull a handgun from his waistband."

Which goes straight to the point that we have CONTRADICTORY orders being given to the victim here. "get on the ground", "drop the gun" Which do you do? This looks very bad for the police.

[Callisto32]

10. Three on-edge cops with threat focus, all telling him to do something different.

All probably ONLY worried about what he individually wants the guy to do, and a scared and confused guy. Guess who's getting fucking shot, and who will probably get relief with a "all normal procedures were followed, nothing to see here, folks, move along.

Wouldn't this have been the PERFECT time to use a taser?

[RamboLiberal]

19. You don't use a taser against a gun

And witness testimony has been all over the place on this case but there are a number of people who saw him pull something from his waist and many said he pointed it.

A cop has a split second to decide. I don't know on this case if it wasn't just a stupid tragedy and Scott made a very fatal mistake.

From Monday's 9/27 testimony.

Lee Mendell, another Costco shopper, also saw the shooting and said Scott pointed a gun at a police officer.

Christine Dye: Scott then reached into his pocket or to his waist, where she saw something dark, perhaps a wallet, but she wasn't sure what it was, she said. But she did see him make a motion of pulling something out of his waist area, she said.

Michael Dye: He then saw Scott reach for the left side of his waistband, where he noticed the handle of a gun, and Scott started to pull it out, Dye said.

Bettie Lou Travis: After being told to evacuate the store, she saw Scott talking to an officer, then he raised his shirt with his left hand and brought his right hand to the back of his right side, she said.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010/sep/27/erik-scott-day5/

And yes I wish I could hear from the defense's side. LV does need to change their coroner's inquests.

[PavePusher]

21. R.E. "witness testimony"...

it's notoriously unreliable....

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/06/60minutes/main4848039.shtml?tag=mncol;lst;2

I think the link posts broken, copy/paste this with the usual http stuff in front: cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/06/60minutes/main4848039.shtml?tag=mncol;lst;2

[jeepnstein]

26. Actually you can.

We're taught to use the Taser in some cases if and only if you are covered by another officer with his weapon at the ready. It's up to the officers on the scene to determine if the Taser is used. We actually had one of our deputies disarm a mentally ill man with a shotgun with his Taser. The suspect had the shotgun at the ready, our deputies had him covered with a variety of handguns, shotguns, and an M16. One deputy drew his Taser and announced quite loudly "TASER, TASER, TASER!!!!" while giving the suspect a ride on the lightning. It was a good outcome. A few months prior to that we hadn't adopted the Taser yet and the poor guy would have most certainly been killed. In the context of this standoff there was enough time and solid cover to permit the use of the Taser. The deputies were able to take the fight to the man on terms of their choosing. That's usually not the case.

[Name removed]

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[Bold Lib]

13. You're a real peace of work. You came up with a DIFFERENT article

that does not have what you posted in it. How about you find the police report on the the guy you CLAIMED was shooting an AK in the air? Or how about you respond to the FACT that we now know by a 911 recording that the guy was given CONTRADICTORY orders? "get on the ground", "drop the gun".

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

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[tortoise1956]

11. A couple of points...

I've been following this case closely since I live in Vegas. Consider these items:

1. A female Costco employee testified that when he pulled his gunm he reached around behind him. She is on tape demonstrating. This agrees with the Security guard, who is on the 911 recording stating that the gun was in the waistband in back. OK, agreement.
Now, compare this to the testimony of the officer (Mosher) who shot first - he stated that he ordered Erik Scott to turn around, and THEN he saw the gun in his waistband. Since he claims that Scott was facing him when he shot, he would not have been able to see a gun in the small of the back.

2. The 911 recording has time hacks on the left side of the screen. According to the time hacks, less than 3 seconds elapsed from the time the officer started shouting commands, to the first gunshot. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm pretty sure it would be at least a couple of seconds to sort things out in my head.

3. As an informational aside, Kimber does make 9mm Model 1911 pistols (I I didn't know that until I visited their site).

For those of you who don't live here, the coroner's inquest process is a joke. The state has total control of who testifies, what questions are asked, and what instructions are givne to the jury. The ACLU tried to have some changes made several years ago to put soem actual teeth into the process, but the police unions objected and threatened not to testify in the future. I have lived in town for 25 years, and I can't recall any shooting ever being called anything but legal. Of course, there haveeen millions of dollars paid out in judgements to families through the civil courts.

Edited to add in that the family attorney has mentioned having doznes of witnesses who woudl testify that Scott never pulled the weapon. Of course, the state isn't interested in hearing from them...

[RamboLiberal]

17. Good points - I'm not in LV but have been following this case

via Las Vegas Sun & even listened to testimony last week via the net.

I don't know completely that I could find the police at fault based on a couple of items.

1 - The amount of drugs in Scott's system & some testimony that he seemed to be somewhat out of it and disoriented - for instance having a lot of trouble filling out the Costco membership application and other testimony I've seen of him being somewhat erratic. He should've never been carrying with that amount of drugs in his system. I've seen CCW holders post where they were going on some med for a couple of days and were not going to carry a gun.

2 - If he did reach for and bring out the gun in the holster those cops have a split second to sort that out. I can understand them shooting him. And even from behind - once one starts to shoot then every cop there if they have a target will shoot. Suspects aren't always disabled or dead on the first shot and can still inflict harm on an officer or the public. Scott may have made a fatal error in bringing out that gun in the holster even if his intention was surrendering it. I wonder if the drugs affected his judgement?

3 - Yes there are some holsters you can put a finger in and shoot the firearm and it appears that is what Scott was using for carry.


A photo of a handgun that was said to belong to Erik Scott is displayed during a coroner’s inquest for Scott at the Regional Justice Center Friday, September 24, 2010

It wouldn't be the easiest thing but yes this holster you could get a finger in to fire, though I doubt again officers have the time to sort that out as well. This is a cheap holster that I'm no fan of because it doesn't retain the firearm well and I think it has a tendency to move around. There was also testimony Scott was continually pulling up the back of his pants. Possibly had a cheap or no belt as well? And a 1911 style firearm is a bit heavier than a compact or bug gun. That of course is not a crime but can get you noticed CCW.

All that being said, glad I don't have to decide this case and yes your coroner's inquest is really one-sided in LV. Too bad there wasn't video. And I'd love to hear the defense lawyers put on their case.

Is there a possibility this will go to a civil case? I can't see how the cops will be charged criminally or have any judgement against with the testimony all over the map and the fact of the drugs in Scott's system.

I originally thought the cops screwed the pooch on this one but now I'm sure that it wasn't Scott that erred very badly.

[Euromutt]

23. I don't know; if Scott f**ked up, the cops made it easy for him to do so

If he did reach for and bring out the gun in the holster those cops have a split second to sort that out. I can understand them shooting him.

Not if it was one of the cops who told him to do so in the first place. As I'm so fond of pointing out, authority is power coupled with responsibility. If, as an agent of the state (e.g. a law enforcement officer), you claim the authority to wield lethal force in response to a perceived threat, then you have the concomitant responsibility to not contribute to creating that threat. If allowing a suspect to reach for a firearm is too dangerous, you do not tell him to "drop it", thereby prompting him to reach for the firearm.

[Euromutt]

22. What do you mean "it doesn't explain what witnesses (say they) saw"?

We have various witnesses stating that Scott reached for the holstered gun at his waist. We have Officer Mosher on tape instructing Scott to "drop it." What rules out the possibility that Scott was attempting to comply with Officer Mosher's instruction to "drop it"?

An instruction, I might add, that Officer Mosher himself apparently does not remember giving. It strikes me as quite plausible that Officer Mosher may have been so focused on what Scott was doing that he was paying insufficient attention to what he himself was telling Scott to do. Thus, he did not consciously register that he'd told Scott to "drop it," and when Scott took the (holstered) handgun off his waistband, Mosher misinterpreted the movement because he didn't understand that Scott was trying to comply with an order that he (Mosher) didn't realize he'd given.

It doesn't matter that the witnesses apparently don't remember Mosher telling Scott to "drop it," because it's on tape; it definitely happened.

[RamboLiberal]

25. Or Scott had already drawn the gun in the holster from his waistband

And that was when Mosher yelled "Drop it". That makes more sense to me of the sequence in which this happened. But without video who knows.