More States Allowing Guns in Bars and Restaurants

[SecularMotion]

Source: NY Times

NASHVILLE — Happy-hour beers were going for $5 at Past Perfect, a cavernous bar just off this city’s strip of honky-tonks and tourist shops when Adam Ringenberg walked in with a loaded 9-millimeter pistol in the front pocket of his gray slacks.

Mr. Ringenberg, a technology consultant, is one of the state’s nearly 300,000 handgun permit holders who have recently seen their rights greatly expanded by a new law — one of the nation’s first — that allows them to carry loaded firearms into bars and restaurants that serve alcohol.

“If someone’s sticking a gun in my face, I’m not relying on their charity to keep me alive,” said Mr. Ringenberg, 30, who said he carries the gun for personal protection when he is not at work.

Gun rights advocates like Mr. Ringenberg may applaud the new law, but many customers, waiters and restaurateurs here are dismayed by the decision.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/04/us/04guns.html?_r=1&hp

[KamaAina]

1. Because guns and alcohol are such a sweet combination

What could possibly go wrong? :sarcasm:

[cleanhippie]

3. Pretty sure the law states a carrier cannot consume, just like driving a car.

So if the law is followed, not a lot can go wrong.

[donco6]

9. So he's going to a bar to eat appetizers?

Or maybe he went to the bar earlier, pounded down a few sans-firearm, then came back loaded. Super!

[cleanhippie]

16. I don't know.

Perhaps its to do the same thing as the other patrons in the place that will drive their car after? I do not condone breaking the law. Sorry if you think I did.

[donco6]

21. In my scenario, he'd be following the rules. Intoxicated and armed.

Super!

[Euromutt]

49. Your scenario does not take into account the actual law

Under the state code of Tennessee, it's illegal to be legally "under the influence" while in possession of a firearm, if you're not on your own property. Same deal in Washington state (where I happen to live), and I'd wager it's the same in most other states.

It is actually perfectly legal in Washington state to go into a restaurant while carrying and have a beer or a glass of wine with your meal. But if your BAC goes over 0.08% (the legal limit to operate a motor vehicle), you'd better not be carrying.

[donco6]

53. Then the guy he shoots in the face will have a really good case against him.

Super!

[Euromutt]

72. And how would that be different if carry in establishments serving alcohol were illegal?

If you're dealing with the kind of person who's inclined to get hammered and shoot some other person in the face over some minor slight, well, that kind of person is unlikely to give a flying fuck about the fact that it might be illegal to carry a firearm into an establishment that serves alcoholic beverages, or whether or not he gets legally "under the influence" while carrying.

I mean, really, you think the kind of asshole who would carry a gun into a bar, get tanked up and shoot some other guy in the face over some imagined slight is going to hesitate for so much as an instant because there's a sign on the door saying "No Guns," let alone turn around and go home?

[spin]

32. Did you ever hear the term "designated driver"? (n/t)

[Katya Mullethov]

39. The term is not new

But the concept to many is quite abstract . Seemingly flying in the face of the very laws of nature .

[provis99]

10. read the article. The gun guy at Bobby's Idle Hour is getting sloshed on beer.

Proud to show off his gun while drunk off his ass, no doubt.

[cleanhippie]

14. Then he is breaking the law.

I am not condoning breaking the law.

[provis99]

25. no, he is not breaking the law.

[-..__...]

26. Maybe YOU should read the article...

where does it say that Mr. Gideon is/was carrying a firearm at any time?

Down at Bobby’s Idle Hour, however, Mike Gideon said he did not believe that guns in bars were unsafe. As he sipped a beer in the fading afternoon light, Mr. Gideon, who characterized his 19-gun collection as “serious,” said that having a few permit holders around made any public space safer and that he boycotts any business that does not allow him to carry a weapon.

[provis99]

27. he boycotts a business that won't let him in with his gun.

Since he is in the bar, it obviously let him in with his gun.

[Euromutt]

50. Doesn't mean he's carrying when he's drinking

He might carry in the place when he's not drinking, and leave his gun at home when he does come there to drink.

[shadowrider]

65. Please REREAD it. Mr. Ringenberg walked in with the gun. Mr. Gideon commented

Nowhere do I see where the article state Mr. Gideon was also carrying. Please show me where it does.

I'll wait.

[X_Digger]

43. Pot, may I introduce Kettle.. Kettle, this is Pot..

Where do read that the 'gun guy' is carrying at Idle Hour?

eta: and to your "he's not breaking the law.."

Under Tennessee’s new law, gun permit holders are not supposed to drink alcohol while carrying their weapons. Mr. Ringenberg washed down his steak sandwich with a Coke.

[RSillsbee]

54. Can you explain ?

How sipping beer equates to getting sloshed?

Colorado allows for carrying a firearm in a bar no shoot outs here

[KamaAina]

24. Well, I'll certainly sleep a lot easier tonight

knowing that no one has ever driven while drunk, so presumably no one except Plaxico Burress will ever be packing heat while drinking at a bar. :sarcasm:

[proteus_lives]

42. Ah, the bloodbath predications.

:eyes:

[jazzhound]

46. "What could possibly go wrong?"

Among the intellectually lazy "arguments" put forth by pro-control supporters, this ranks among the absolute laziest.

Gotta love it when your debate opponent waves the white flag of surrender at the opening of the debate!

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jazzhound]

74. You follow one cheap and lazy post with another.

Actually you don't engage because you know that you are absolutely uneducated on the subject of guns/violence and are aware that your "arguments" would be quickly and soundly destroyed.

[cleanhippie]

2. And your point?

[Prometheus Bound]

6. And your point?

[cleanhippie]

12. And your point?

I didn't have one, as it appears the OP didn't either.

Do you?

[Prometheus Bound]

15. The OP doesn't have to have a point.

The point is to post stories of interest in the hope that they generate discussion.

Which seems to be happening.

[cleanhippie]

17. Which is why I asked if the OP had one.

You seem to be spoiling for a fight. Judging from you post below, I think you are.

[Prometheus Bound]

18. How does that saying go about the pot and the kettle?

[cleanhippie]

22. You seem to be familiar with it.

You must hear it a lot.

Wife calling me for dinner. Gotta run.

:toast:

[Prometheus Bound]

23. Cheers!

[Prometheus Bound]

4. Trouble is, what if someone challenges you to a draw.

A real man can't chicken out. But how many of us practice our quick-draw for two hours a day. You can be sure the guy who issues the challenge does.

Mind you, Darwin's Law at work.

[PavePusher]

34. You've been watching too many bad movies. n/t

[X_Digger]

44. Reality != Pop Culture

Are there any other aspects of reality that you like to transpose with popular media?

Did you win back your girlfriend's love by holding up a boom box a la John Cusack in 'Say Anything'?

[Prometheus Bound]

45. Gosh. A bit touchy, aren't you?

[friendly_iconoclast]

57. Well, we *have* rehashed this issue a dozen times or so.

And every single time we do, one or more poster(s) trots out the 'blood on the barstools' urban legend.

Inevitably, shootouts in bars by CCW will happen Real Soon Now, according to the meme.

Of course, when asked to show where this has happened in the couple of dozen states that already allow it---

well, you'd sooner hear mice walking over cotton.



So I don't blame him for getting a wee bit curt with those who don't know what they are talking about.

[Prometheus Bound]

62. Well okay then. I understand.

But honestly, this is the first gun thread I've ever opened. I was kind of surprised at the immediate anger.

I don't really have anything against guns. Bought my first shotgun on my 11th birthday. I just found the image I conjured up of a bar full of people wearing pistols and holsters in modern times kind of amusing.

[gravity556]

56. re:Trouble is, what if someone challenges you to a draw.

See, here's the thing-carrying a gun means you have to take MORE shit without getting pissed off, not less. You're carrying a tool that can have serious consequences if it is used-loss of life, loss of freedom, loss of rights. Even in a justified shooting, you're probably going to spend a day or two in jail and it's going to cost you a pretty large chunk of change to pay your lawyer.

And quite frankly, if you think to yourself "I could never carry a gun, I'd shoot the first mofo that cuts me off in traffic", you may need to see a therapist and engage in some anger management classes. Because if your fuse is THAT short, what's to stop you from flying off the handle and punching someone because you don't like their shirt? Or driving your car into a crowd of pedestrians for taking too long to cross the street? Or smacking your date around because she doesn't want to have sex on the first date?

Seriously, if all you can think of, when you contemplate carrying a gun-and if all you can imagine someone ELSE contemplating when THEY'RE carrying a gun-is violence and badassery, then maybe it's not the guy who wants to have a burger and an iced tea in a place that serves beer while he's carrying a gun that folks should worry about.

I carry a gun everywhere I go. So does my wife. It's a last resort-neither of us wants to ever have to use our pistol in anger, but if some deranged and violent individual jumps over the table with a steak knife because he doesn't like some stupid thing, I'm sure as fuck not getting stabbed, nor would I let my wife be stabbed.

The folks who insist that gun owners are walking the street, slack jawed and hoping for the chance to cap someone over some petty slight are projecting. Just because *you* don't trust yourself not to go on a shooting spree doesn't mean that the thought has ever crossed *my* mind.

Again, maybe some paxil and xanax will mellow your violent tendencies. ;)

[Prometheus Bound]

63. A little sense of humor never killed anyone.

Well, as far as I know.

[Kolesar]

67. Every time we ask for evidence of "individual jumps over the table with a steak knife", =>no respons

It's as loud as mice stampeding over a floor covered with cotton balls from a big number of aspiring bottles.

You have a bigger chance of getting a lethal virus, Gravity556.

[SteveM]

58. So! THAT is your point. Gun-control is based on (old) T.V. drama and Miami Vice?

[Prometheus Bound]

64. No, I was thinking older than that. Like Gunsmoke!

[ManiacJoe]

70. You owe me a new keyboard!

Trouble is, what if someone challenges you to a draw.
A real man can't chicken out. But how many of us practice our quick-draw for two hours a day. You can be sure the guy who issues the challenge does.

:spray:
That post should have come with a drink warning.

[msongs]

5. so much for any rights to a gun free environment off us government property, where A2 applies nt

[rrneck]

33. What rights are those? nt

[SteveM]

59. Uh, how 'bout your home and car?

[benEzra]

80. If the restaurant owner wants to post his/her restaurant as a no-legal-guns-allowed zone,

he/she is free to do so.

You are free to patronize only restaurants so posted. Of course, that doesn't mean it's a gun-free environment, just that the people who are conscientious enough to obey an unenforced sign aren't going to be eating there.

[Renew Deal]

7. What could possibly go wrong?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZz6kOJcn7c

[PavePusher]

36. You missed the text banner at the start, eh? n/t

[sfwriter]

8. Give me a break...

“If someone’s sticking a gun in my face, I’m not relying on their charity to keep me alive,” said Mr. Ringenberg, 30, who said he carries the gun for personal protection when he is not at work.

Yes you are. If they have a gun in your face, You aren't really going to make much use of your gun.

[cleanhippie]

20. True.

Good catch.

[PavePusher]

37. You don't follow the news about firearm-related self-defense much, do you?

It happens (succesfully) far more often than you think.

[mvccd1000]

48. So you missed the posts about...

... the Pizza Hut worker in NC or the keg party shooting in Chandler, AZ?

Both times the criminals had guns aimed at the victims, both times the victims drew their own pistols and killed the criminals.

And those are just from stories posted here, and just in the last month or so.

Got any other brilliant theories that won't stand up to facts or reality?

[rug]

11. Just a matter of time before we can smoke while filling up.

[panader0]

19. lol

Guns are ok but cigarettes are not. A pet peeve of mine, since all of the patrons of the little bars around here smoke. The law banning smoking hurt their business and that of the working bands. People don't go as much to these places since the ban. If you don't like the place, don't go there.

[provis99]

28. cigarettes at gas stations don't kill people! People kill people!

[Euromutt]

51. A cigarette doesn't produce the sustained heat required to ignite gasoline

Mythbusters took on that one. Gasoline ignites between 500°F and 540°F, and the hottest a cigarette gets is 450-500°F, and that's only when you're actively dragging on it.

The naked flame when you're lighting a cigarette, on the other hand...

[bemildred]

13. Evolution in action. nt

[COLGATE4]

29. Now there's a recipe for disaster. Who thought this brilliant

idea up??? Idiots!!!!!!

[COLGATE4]

30. Love the sound of tough talk by some 30 year old tough guy

wannabe who grew a set of balls by buying his very own concealed weapon. Chances are that if someone shoved a gun in his face the only question would be whether he pissed or crapped himself first. These guys have definitely been watching too many action movies.

[Katya Mullethov]

38. Gloating over how lame it is

Is two tactical somersaults and a roundhouse lamer still .

[DonP]

55. Who should we believe, you or the FBI?

They estimate a low of 600,000 to 800,000 defensive gun uses (DGU) each year. Other estimates run as high as 2 million a year.

But you know better I guess.

Let's see? FBI or a self appointed keyboard commando.

Who to believe? Hmmm?

[pscot]

31. What could possibly go wrong?

[jazzhound]

47. What could possibly be more intellectually lazy than

your post?

Read responses to post #1. And you can stop waving that white flag now.

[spin]

35. Lot's of negative replies ... Let's see some stories to prove that the law...

is a bad idea.

Surely with all the states that allow carry in establishments that serve alcohol there must by now be several hundred incidents where some drunken fool shot someone.

[benEzra]

40. Wow, that story is unusually clueless even for the Times.

I'd say they are a decade or few out of date on that front.

[Euromutt]

52. It's probably more the "allowing carry in bars" part that's novel

And it's probably the result of idiosyncratic liquor laws on the part of the states in question, which don't fully distinguish between restaurants licensed to serve alcoholic beverages on the one hand, and bars on the other.

[Abq_Sarah]

66. NM should be dark blue

30-7-3 NMSA, amended July 1st 2010 prohibits open carry in a licensed liquor establishment.

[lawodevolution]

41. Did teh blood flow in teh street yet?

[SteveM]

60. $5 beer at happy-hour! Now THAT'S a crime.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shadowrider]

78. I used to go to a bar, back in the mis-guided days of my youth

That had a sign over the bar that said, "Free beer at 5 o'clock". Trouble was, every number on the clock was 4.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kolesar]

68. Bars are for getting drunk and fist fighting. Now that nerds are packing nickel plated heat...

...it changes the "whole calculus". What was once a night of fun could turn tragic.

[X_Digger]

69. That might be what *you* go to a bar for..

Me? I occasionally go listen to a band or be designated driver at someone's birthday / bachelor / leaving the company / got divorced party.

[PavePusher]

73. "Bars are for getting drunk and fist fighting."

Pull that shit in the bars I go to, and you will end up leaving on a ballistic trajectory ending in the parking lot.

The best I saw so far covered over 30 feet horizontally...

Edit: forgot the qoutation marks.

[Glassunion]

75. WTF?

Do they have a trebuchet for the trouble-makers at the bars you go to?

[PavePusher]

92. They got some big-boned, corn-fed, raw-hided mothers sons 'round here.

Generally, they prefer to tap one on the shoulder and have a stern look and a kind word (think Patrick Swyaze in "Road House"), but they keep a contractor's tape measure and a log book by the door. My kind of place....:evilgrin:

[Kolesar]

76. See!

That is what I am talking about.

[Glassunion]

77. What, that the bars he goes to does not put up with trouble makers

who are there to get drunk and start fights? And that if you do the bouncers will show you the door(faster than you probably intended to see it)?

[Kolesar]

79. So there never, ever will be a problem with violent alcoholics

...in never, never land.

[friendly_iconoclast]

81. Nice diversion, but we're talking about something else....

Violent alcoholics are a problem with or without firearms, as anyone who has spent time in bars well knows.

But we were talking about people legally carrying guns in places that serve alcohol, remember?

If you can show this being a problem in the 43 states that already allow this, please do so.

The "Blood on The Barstools" schtick is getting old....

[Kolesar]

82. If you think your judgement is not impaired after one drink, you are wrong

They call it a "depressant" for a reason.

[Glassunion]

84. You're missing the point...

They can go into the establishment with a firearm, but they cannot drink. So if I decide to go to an Applebee's have an iced tea and some hot wings, what is the problem?

From the article:"Under Tennessee’s new law, gun permit holders are not supposed to drink alcohol while carrying their weapons."

[oneshooter]

83. Personally I like the Texas 51% law. n/t

[Glassunion]

85. Proof?

Like, beer ok, but "Bacardi 151" is a no go?

How can you tell a 51% establishment from one that is not?

Sorry, I come from a state where I can carry just about anywhere.

[oneshooter]

87. The law as written..........

§6.4.

Notice Required on Certain Premises.

(a) Notice: The following establishments shall prominently display an appropriate notice at each entrance to the premises, to state that it is unlawful to carry a handgun on the premises:

(1) a business that has a permit or license issued under Alcoholic Beverage Code, Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, and that derives 51% or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for on- premises consumption as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Alcoholic Beverage Code, §104.06.

(2) a hospital licensed under the Health and Safety Code, Chapter 241.

(3) a nursing home licensed under the Health and Safety Code, Chapter 242.

(b) Text. The sign must state that it is unlawful for a person licensed under the Act to carry a handgun on the premises. The notice must also be posted in Spanish.

(c) Visibility. The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height and must include on its face the number "51" printed in solid red at least 5 inches in height. The sign shall be displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public from outside or immediately inside each public, service, and employee entrance. Signs required by this section are not required to be posted by fire exits, interior entrances, or entrances to individual resident rooms.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[Glassunion]

88. Well... That does make it easier.

So you don't have to play a guessing game every time you might wander into an establishment.

I hate it when laws are written so that you can not be breaking the law all the while breaking the law... If you know what I mean?

[oneshooter]

90. Yea I know. The TABC also takes it very serious if the.....

establishment hangs a 51% sign and doesn't qualify for it. They will order them to remove the sign or lose the license! If they do not want CHL's business then they have to post a 30.06 sign. They are easy to check as the 51% license is blue and the other is red.
The big problem is that they post the sign where it is not readily visible from the entry. We are working to get the sign placement rules clarified this session of the legislature.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[Glassunion]

91. I still love how the penal code for the sign resembles a caliber.

[Glassunion]

86. From the mouth of the dumbest lawyer evar!!!

From the article:
So far, the law has been challenged only once. Filed by an anonymous waiter, the complaint contended that allowing guns into a tavern creates an unsafe work environment for servers. His complaint was denied by the state’s Division of Occupational Safety and Health.

“A loaded concealed weapon in a bar is a recognized hazard,” said David Randolph Smith, a lawyer who represents the waiter and is preparing to appeal the decision. “I have a right to go into a restaurant or bar and not have people armed. And of course, the waiter has a right to a safe workplace.”

1. What "recognized hazard" is it? I have yet to see that report from the CDC
2. What "right" is being trampled by being around armed people?

Both statements pulled from the same source... The land of make shit up and pull it out of your ass.

[gravity556]

93. re: From the mouth of the dumbest lawyer evar

Obviously you weren't aware that gun owners radiate Cherenkov blue when they're carrying. And seriously, where is this purported "right to go somewhere while quashing other peoples' exercise of enumerated rights" thing coming from? Can I now claim the right not to be surrounded by people who are "supermilers" on the road? After all, it's a PROVEN hazard when higher speed traffic encounters traffic moving at a MUCH slower pace. How about my right NOT to be exposed to sick people and sick people with sick kids in public? After all, *I* have a compromised immune system due to my having to take immunosupressant medication. Where do people get off bring who knows what horrible plague in to work?

Why aren't these "rights"? What about my right to never have to hear crappy music on the radio?

Wait-that's right, those aren't RIGHTS. How about property owner's rights to allow smoking in an establishment that HE owns, HE operates, HE is taking the financial risk for? Doesn't the OWNER OF THE PROPERTY get to decide if he wants to piss away 30% or more of his customers by going non-smoking? Apparently, no-seems special interest groups can dictate what legal activities a property owner can engage in. Somehow, it's OK to force a property owner to disallow smoking-against his will, but not OK for another group to use that same force of law to allow another lawful activity.

Again, the whole blood in the streets/bars/whatever argument is old and unfounded. It's based in projection-"Well, if *I* had a gun in a bar, I'd shoot any sumbitch that looked at me crossways!"-which, in my opinion, is a fantastic argument for a psych evaluation of the individual making the statement. Seriously-crazy and violent people who would shoot someone for looking at them crossways should spend a little time in a rubber room while they work through whatever "issues" are causing their violent and antisocial tendencies.