Shooting at Tennessee post office leaves 2 employees dead.

[sharesunited]

The constitutional rights of the victims don't amount to diddly squat because the one-man Mister Justice has access to a gun and ammo.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/10/18/tennessee.postal.deaths/index.html?hpt=T2

Such a tragedy. Now carry on dying America.

[msongs]

1. non RKBA people have no rights when it comes to freedom from gun violence nt

[sharesunited]

3. Breaking news. Neither do RKBA people.

They are somehow counting on getting a clear shot first.

Fools!

[lawodevolution]

12. stay away from drugs and

post offices and you'll be fine.

[alabama_for_obama]

58. your wishing...

that you can legislate that guns will go away. but they are easy enough to make, and as long as there is steel and gunpowder, people will make them and have them. so get used to it.

[RSillsbee]

46. Sure you do

Buy a gun and defend yourself

[benEzra]

2. If only concealed carry were prohibited in post offices. Oh, wait....

If only guns were as hard for criminals to obtain as cannabis leaves...

[slackmaster]

4. At least sharesunited waited until there was no doubt that people were actually shot before posting

But because the linked article makes no reference to the gender of the suspect and in fact uses the word "suspects", I'll place my bet on "the one-man Mister Justice" being today's bad guess by sharesunited, perhaps even an example of misandry in action.

The assailants were either both female, or they were a couple, or there were more than two perpetrators including at least one female.

;-)

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lawodevolution]

13. nope

it is not part of the right to keep and bear arms when someone shoots someone else. The legality of the shooting is determined by a court of law. The RKBA only gives americans the right to keep and bear arms. No where does it explain a right to shoot someone.

[slackmaster]

16. Authoritarians can't trust people, even though most people do the right thing most of the time

For an authoritarian, the only answer to every question is another restriction on personal choice.

Authoritarianism is all about external loci of control. People can't be trusted to control the violent impulses that authoritarians imagine everyone has (dare I suggest that there is projection involved?); therefore people must be controlled in every way possible. The weak human mind can't resist the lure of the gun, therefore the only answer to violent crime is to take all weapons away from everyone.

Everyone, except of course from the government employees who need those weapons in order to enforce the restrictions.

[X_Digger]

19. "most common purpose" -- prove it.

Please, enlighten us, oh great oracle.

This should be good..

:popcorn:

[slackmaster]

39. News reports still don't have any description of the suspect or suspects, and why I care

There can be no doubt that Tennessee law enforcement people, the FBI, postal authorities, etc. have some idea what the suspects in yesterday's shooting look like and why the murders were done, but they must know they're going to have a difficult time solving the case. They've even offered a reward for anyone who can provide useful information about their identity and whereabouts.

I'm sure the police have good reasons for not prejudicing the public, because doing so inevitably leads to a circus of false reports that waste valuable time. In the absence of information about things like the age, gender, build, skin color, facial features, etc. of the individuals, people tend to fill the vacuum with their own preconceived ideas about what someone who would go to a post office to murder two women would look like and why they would do it.

I scoured the news reports yesterday evening. Most of the stories to which Google News had links simply regurgitated information from AP or other sources. Some focused on the victims, most had very scant information, and just one had an apparently fabricated reference to the "two men" for whom police were looking.

I elected to focus yesterday on sharesunited's speculation in the OP about "the one-man Mister Justice" because it's such a pure example of reader bias. Among people who post drive-by current events stories about tragic murders in this forum, the few who bother to pay lip service to the designated topics of the forum often get it wrong because post their own well-formed fantasies about who did the shooting and why. Bad assumptions prevail - That people who keep handguns in their homes all have some bizarre idea about using them to protect their families; that people who perform premeditated murders think they are on some kind of mission to enforce their vision of justice; that the main reason people own firearms is a desire to murder innocent people whenever an opportunity to do so appears.

Perpetuating stereotypes doesn't serve to advance any kind of productive discussion of issues any more than it helps police track down a suspect. That's why it matters. My suggestion for people who wish to post early speculations on crime stories is to resist the impulse to put your own bias and ignorance on display. If you aren't a professional criminologist, you probably have no idea what's going on inside the head of someone who commits a heinous, violent crime.

People do that kind of thing because they are crazy, not because it's possible to obtain a gun and ammunition.

[Glassunion]

5. You forget...

It is a federal crime to posses a firearm in a Post Office.

I think we should make it double-secret illegal. That'll stop em.

[sharesunited]

8. Here's where the mythology is permitted to reside.

Guns and ammo just need to be scarce on an absolute scale.

Instead of indulging the left on "reasonable control."

Reasonable control is a fool's errand.

[Glassunion]

11. I would say scarcity is also a fools errand.

Drugs are illegal. Yet there is a 32billion dollar a year black market in America for illegal drugs.

Guns cannot be un-invented, and where there is a market, there will be product. All a prohibition would do is create a black market for firearms while we would still have the same drug and crime problems that we do today. I feel that it would not effect gun deaths in a positive way. Quite the contrary, I feel it would generate more crime, and more gun related crimes and deaths.

[X_Digger]

20. Get this.. he thinks illegal drugs are scarce.. go ahead, ask him! n/t

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[X_Digger]

32. I can have gum delivered. I can have heroin delivered.

The illegal drug industry in the US is about $30 billion per year.

Gum? World-wide, $19 billion - http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Gum-industry

[slackmaster]

40. I support reasonable gum control

:hide:

[rrneck]

48. But dentures should be regulated. nt

[slackmaster]

49. Only licensed practitioners should be allowed to sell them

[rrneck]

50. Damn

Those protruding hand grips are obviously a danger to the public.

[Glassunion]

53. But can I get a filenfer or a folding fock for it?

[rrneck]

57. Sure.

[Glassunion]

62. We need to regulate that.

You can have no more than two of the following combinations:

A pifol grip
A freadded barrel to affept a filenfer
A flaf fupreffor
A barrel froud
A detafable magafene
A folding or telefoping fock
A fayonet mount
A grenade launfer
or
Have an unloaded weight of fifty ounfefz or more

[shadowrider]

63. The towel, dude, don't forget the towel

Ift's for when you're done fpeaking and wiping up the fpittle.

[rrneck]

65. LOL! You said a mouthful! nt

[Glassunion]

66. Moufful... There, fixed it for you.

[krispos42]

6. You got what you wanted.

To keep down violence, the postal employees were unarmed. Their Constitutional rights to keep and bear arms were infringed, as you advocate for.

[divideandconquer]

10. Just a fact, USA highest murder rate and prison rate of advanced nations

Well calling America advanced about anything anymore is kind of a hoax, but compared to similarly rich nations, we have the highest murder rate and highest prison rate. Think about it, we have a million of our most dangerous people in jail and we still lead the league in murder. Yep, 1 in 75 American men are in prison, a very high percentage of bad guys in the USA are already in jail! Also, if we didn't have all these excellent trauma centers with war trained professionals, the numbers would be even worse. But hey, America will expensively save gun victims lives at the taxpayers expense and at the pleasure of the gun lobby. It's just practice, target practice that is.

[Glassunion]

14. Are you blaming the gun for these numbers?

If not for the gun, the lambs would lay with the lions?

In all honesty, what do you think is the root cause for our prison populations and murder rates?

[TheWraith]

15. Actually, the United States is 46th in intentional homicide.

Sorry to burst your bubble with facts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

[Art_from_Ark]

24. The poster qualified his/her statement

by comparing the United States with "similarly rich nations", which usually include Western Europe, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore and Japan. Probably none of the countries on that list that have a higher per capita murder rate than the US would be considered "similarly rich".

[TheWraith]

25. Except that those nations aren't "similarly rich."

Most of those countries have far more serious anti-poverty efforts than the US does. If you look at the list of countries by homicide rate, you'll see that the ones which rank highly aren't necessarily poor countries. But they are countries with high income disparity, between the very rich and the very poor.

Furthermore, they don't have the same level of an insane drug war that the US leads, creating a massive black market for recreational narcotics and a permanent professional criminal class to feed that market. The vast majority of our murders involving a firearm in the US are the result of gang and turf wars for control of the drug trade. The situation is fundamentally the same as for the prohibition of alcohol. Once prohibition was lifted and the bootleggers defunded, the murder rate dropped by two thirds almost overnight.

[divideandconquer]

35. How about why USA is worse than India in murder?

<http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita>


The real answer everyone knows, is America's degenerate gun culture and the EZ sleazy access to the latest firearms that goes with it. I wish the gun lovers would just tell the truth and quit hiding behind rhetoric and phony civil rights arguments.

[slackmaster]

41. It's only a little worse by rate, and a lot of murders of poor people in India may go unreported

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/India-tops-world-murder-count/articleshow/3091319.cms

http://www.southasianconnection.com/blogs/841/Murder-Capital-Of-The-World---India.html

[TheWraith]

51. Why then doesn't Switzerland have a million murders?

After all, there's not just "easy access" there, the government literally hands people machine guns and ammo to store in their house.

[Hoyt]

74. Main reason is that they leave guns at home.

[rrneck]

75. Show causality. nt

[rl6214]

77. Yup, if all those violent criminals just leave them at home

nobody will get hurt.

[friendly_iconoclast]

52. How about why is Russia worse than the USA in murder? It's an advanced nation.

Sorry, I forgot they don't fit your carefully parsed meme....

[Katya Mullethov]

56. We lead the world in Soulless Bastard Subsidies

Just file it under " Unintended Consequences "

[lawodevolution]

17. You should consider promoting improvement of education

As long as the government thinks gun control is a valid option it will ignore the real problems behind crime. Would you want your doctor to treat a chronic cough with a cough drop? I wouldn't. Gun control is a cough drop. The underlying causes of violent crime are the war on drugs (legalize them!), bad education system (but the government doesn't have to fix this as long as it has a hope for gun control), lead poisoning, laws that are too complex and based on relativism rather than a set standard and punishments that vary so much that criminals have no idea what kind of punishment they'll get if they commit a crime. Society would be better if the government were forced to reduce crime by addressing these problems rather than their little cough drop. A person with a chronic cough might have lung cancer, TB, pneumonia, asthma, COPD, etc, and I'm sure you would sue a doctor if he treated your chronic cough with some halls cough medicine. Actually masking the symptom can make things worse if the underlying disease process causing the cough continues to progress, which is what violence will do in our society if the government keeps pushing feel good gun control every time it fails to reduce crime and in fact that is what they've been doing for decades, meanwhile they fail to work on the underlying cause of violence. Today the disease behind violence is growing in the UK, and eventually they won't be able to keep doctoring their murder stat to make their gun control schemes look good, someday they'll be just like south africa, actually they already are as violent as south africa.

Gun control not only is a failure but it creates failure in other aspects of society.

[krispos42]

18. Yup, we are also the only advanced nation without universal health care/insurance

We have a massive military budget that is 45% of the world's total, and a ginormous gap between the rich and the poor. Our high prison rate ruins the lives of non-violent minor drug users and serves as a form of Criminal College.

And people like yourself that fret and moan about assault weapons wind up putting people that perpetuate the UHC/DoD/wealth gap/prison rate/drug illegalization problems that we have.


You want violence to go down? Stop trying to "trickle down" disarm gangs by making it harder for average people to get guns, and focus your efforts on legalizing drugs instead.

[shadowrider]

31. I've asked you before and I'll ask again

If other nations are so advanced, enlightened, whatever you want to call it, leaving the USA in the dust, why are you still here? Why haven't you moved yet?

[divideandconquer]

33. "Love it or leave it" spoken like a true...

Sometimes the cloaking device breaks down

[shadowrider]

34. YOU are the one complaining about living in a backwards, third world country

Not I. Again, if you have so many complaints, why don't you move to somewhere that's a gun-free mecca? You didn't answer the question the first time.

[divideandconquer]

36. That meme was what the reichwing told the antiwar protestors in the 60's

Sad and very telling you regurgitate that slogan on DU. Your astroturf is showing.

[shadowrider]

42. You still aren't answering the question. Once again

If you think it's so bad here, why do you stay?

And this is NOT love it or leave it. I'm just curious.

[divideandconquer]

55. Like all progressives, I want a better nation

[shadowrider]

59. Your statement indicates you aren't a progressive if you're for RKBA

I have no problem with you wanting a better nation, we all do. But a gun-free society will lead us into being another Nigeria which has the lowest rate of handgun ownership in the world because of stringent anti-gun laws. This has lead to only the bad guys and cops, many times they too are bad guys, having guns. That isn't working out too well.

Progressives/liberals, whatever you want to call them, can be pro-RKBA, and many are.

[lawodevolution]

43. I agree with the post above yours

You will probably never in your lifetime see an America with more strict gun laws than today. Soon we will have more guns than people in this country. You are inept politically and you are currently being swept to the fringe. Gun control strongholds are being shut down and over the next 10 years I expect chicago will force court cases that will set precedent to strip gun control laws around the nation.

I heard canada wants people to move there. You should look into it.

[sharesunited]

27. Self delete.

[sharesunited]

29. Self delete.

[sharesunited]

30. What you imagine is a world where they could get off the first shot.

Now just imagine the crazy world you long for.

[krispos42]

38. It happens on a regular basis n/t

[lawodevolution]

44. SU tells you that you long for a crazy world yet he wants us to be more like nigeria

Where there is a total gun and ammo ban and also most importantly

The only nation on earth with SU's qualification to be a good society, to have guns and ammo scarce given that Nigeria has the lowest gun ownership rate on earth based on the small arms survey of 2007

[virginia mountainman]

7. it is a big time Federal crime...

For ANYONE (except Sara Brady's only ones) to pull into the Post Office parking lot, with any gun, much less walk inside the post office with one.

What more "Gun Free Zone" do you want???

Just another in a long line of complete failures of the Gun Free zones.

[PavePusher]

22. Actually, the "lawful purposes" phrase in the Postal regs...

would seem to allow non-criminal carry, but it hasn't been tested in court yet.

Got a million bucks I can borrow?

[virginia mountainman]

26. Lawsuit already filed....

39 C.F.R. § 232.1(l).

(l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.

http://onlygunsandmoney.blogspot.com/2010/10/challenge-to-ban-on-firearms-on-postal.html

[PavePusher]

37. Good. I hope they win! n/t

[spin]

67. Further info on concealed carry in a post office...

can be found at:

http://rlwesquire.wordpress.com/2008/06/09/question-about-concealed-carry-in-a-post-office/

excerpt:

However, if we look further down to the exceptions under (d), we find:

(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to—
(1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;
(2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or

(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

As you can see in (d)(3), it is lawful to carry a firearm into a Federal facility incident to hunting or “other lawful purposes.” Just what are “other lawful purposes” though? If you carry a gun into a Federal facility with the intent to commit a crime therein, then it would seem pretty obvious that you are not engaged in “lawful purposes.” However, if you carry a concealed weapon, with a valid concealed weapons permit, and you are not intending to commit any crimes therein, you should be well within the meaning of “lawful purposes.”

This does not mean that you won’t be harassed or even arrested for carrying a concealed weapon or other dangerous weapon in a Post Office. We often tell people that law enforcement can do anything they want until you can have a Judge tell them they can’t. Some law enforcement officers do not know the full scope of where citizens can legally carry firearms, and thus it leaves room for error.

[xchrom]

21. Recommend

[spin]

23. I agree that we need to stop criminal activity involving firearms ...

2 workers killed in Tenn. post office shooting
By ADRIAN SAINZ, Associated Press Writer Adrian Sainz, Associated Press Writer – Mon Oct 18, 6:18 pm ET

HENNING, Tenn. – Two gunmen opened fire Monday at a post office in a rural West Tennessee town that was home to "Roots" author Alex Haley, killing two workers during an attempted robbery.emphasis added

The shooting happened Monday morning at the one-story, brick building in Henning, the Lauderdale County Sheriff's Department said. District Attorney Mike Dunavant said Monday afternoon that authorities were looking for a vehicle but would not elaborate except to say the case involved "disturbing violence."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101018/ap_on_re_us/us_post_office_shooting

All gun control efforts should be directed at criminals rather than honest citizens in the future.

[proteus_lives]

45. Ban crime. It's the only way we'll be safe.

[RSillsbee]

47. So, how's that gun free zone working out for you? EOM

[aikoaiko]

54. another example of the futility of a gun free zone without screening security

A few of my local post office workers wish they could carry a concealed weapon to protect themselves.

[one-eyed fat man]

68. The law here in Kentucky

Kentucky Revised Statutes

527.020 Carrying concealed deadly weapon.

(2) Peace officers and certified court security officers, when necessary for their protection in the discharge of their official duties; United States mail carriers when actually engaged in their duties; and agents and messengers of express companies, when necessary for their protection in the discharge of their official duties, may carry concealed weapons on or about their person.

Under state law, mail carriers, while actually carrying and delivering mail, are exempt from permit requirements.

[aikoaiko]

69. Interesting...can mail carriers carry concealed when in a post office or only when on route?

I thought Federal law prohibited guns in post offices?

[ManiacJoe]

70. Federal laws allow guns in the post office.

The quoted law on the posters always leaves off section (d).
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000930----000-.html

Post office "rules" say otherwise: 39 C.F.R. § 232.1 (L)
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2003/julqtr/39cfr232.1.htm

Of course, that makes legally mailing a gun a "violation" of the regulation.
The prohibition of guns at post offices is aimed at the employees.

[one-eyed fat man]

71. Post Office, not the Postal Service.

The Postal Reorganization Act of 1970 abolished the United States Post Office Department, a part of the cabinet, and created the United States Postal Service, a corporation-like independent agency with an official monopoly on the delivery of mail in the United States. The Post Office issued firearms.

My former father-in-law was first employed by the U.S. Post Office as a "Railway mail clerk" in 1946 or 1947. He was issued a Colt Bankers Special. He turned it in when the Post Office discontinued the postal transportation service. Here is a picture of one like it.



Bankers Special, ser. no. 3253xx, butt no. 1650, Inspector mark on the trigger bow is H.O.L. in a circle. the factory letter says, factory engraved: "RMS P.O. DEPT" on the backstrap and 1650 on the butt. shipped to Springfield Armory, for, General Superintendent, Railway Mail Service, Washington, D.C. Shipped, Sept. 17, 1929. Colt factory order no. 16872/ 2500, number in shipment, 150. Note the "R.M.S. P.O. DEPT." marking on the backstrap.

"After several notorious hold-ups of Railway Post Offices (RPOs) during the early 1920s, the Post Office Department (POD) issued surplus World War I Colt .45 1917 New Service Revolver to every crew member. These were heavy, however, for Railway Mail Clerks who frequently worked long days/nights standing in a swaying RPO car. The POD began purchasing a lighter, smaller revolver and issued these as replacements for the long-barreled .45s. Since there were about 20,000 Railway Mail Clerks around 1930, the expectation is that many handguns were purchased. Supplemental procurements came during later years to handle replacements of damaged guns or the slight increase in clerks during the late 1930s.

During the early 1960s, only the clerk-in-charge (that is, the crew foreman), the registry clerk, and the clerk(s) unloading/loading mail at the doors were issued revolvers. Consequently, more than half of hanguns in circulation were turned in. As RPO routes were discontinued during the 1960s through 1971, more were surrendered. The last group were retired when the New York & Washington RPO was discontinued on June 30, 1977."

Frank Scheer, Curator
Railway Mail Service Library

Smith & Wesson Model 1917 revolvers, like this, were also transferred by the Army to the Post Office.



Carriers with Registered Mail were issued a sidearm like this Smith & Wesson "Terrier", marked "PO Dept" on the back strap with its "Post Office Property" marked issue holster.



The Postal Service on the other hand is noted for being gun-free. The Postal Service collected and stored surplus firearms at the Eastern Area Supply Center at Somerville, New Jersey. In 1993, this accumulation of thousands was sent to a foundry at Newark, New Jersey, for supervised destruction.

What the law means is that a mail carrier won't be arrested by local authorities for having a concealed weapon while delivering the mail.

[slackmaster]

60. Henning Postmaster installed "dummy cameras" to give the appearance that the post office lobby...

...was monitored.

..."You'd think when you're in a government building you'd be safe, but I guess you're not safe anywhere anymore," said Percy Williams, 64, a retired police patrolman who said his cousin, Billie Jean Green, is the Henning postmaster....

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2010/oct/20/not-safe-anywhere/

I have to wonder at this point whether the assailants knew that the post office lobby had no security cameras.

[shadowrider]

61. I'm willing to bet they didn't know and further, didn't care.

They were in a gun-free, target rich environment.

[one-eyed fat man]

72. They certainly knew it wasn't like the "old days"

When the clerks in the lobby had a .45 caliber revolver at each window.

http://www.postalmuseum.si.edu/RMS/history/expansion.html

“Every guy in the mail train carried a gun, a revolver ... but everybody had a revolver and you carried your revolver when you were in the mail train. And you’d take it with you and go up to, we had clubs where we stayed at in New York and Chicago, and you’d take your gun there, and you’d kinda keep it, sleep under your pillow . You’d be sleeping during the day, so.” —Donald Miller, former RPO clerk

http://www.postalmuseum.si.edu/RMS/oralhistories/transcripts/Kitts_Joseph-clip1.pdf

The Post Office Department was armed through most of its history. When the Post Office was abolished and became the Postal Service the guns that were routinely kept were slowly collected up in the mid-Seventies. Postal workers didn't start going 'postal' until AFTER the Postal Service did away with guns for carriers and clerks. It's a lot easier to gun innocents down in cold blood when you are guaranteed they will be unable to shoot back. It's a boon to robbers disinclined to leave witnesses as well as to the demented looking to solve their interpersonal squabbles in spectacular infamy.

[SteveM]

64. Curious, do you think folks should have "access" to marijuana? nt

[onehandle]

73. Awful. nt

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

76. That carry of firearms for unofficial purposes in post offices is banned, no?

Having that gun in the post office was ALREADY illegal...

Perhaps they should make double-super-duper illegal!