The Militia Movement and the Radical Right

[MrBenchley]

Interesting interview with Daniel Levitas on the threat posed by homegrown terrorists of the sort that infest the gun show circuit.

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17637

"As evidence of the continued danger, he points to the case of William Krar, a 62-year-old manufacturer of gun parts and a right-wing extremist who has pleaded guilty in federal court to possessing a sodium cyanide bomb and is due to be sentenced in February, along with two compatriots. When Krar was arrested last April in Texas, federal officials also found half a million rounds of ammunition, more than 60 pipe bombs, briefcase bombs, land mine components, a cache of deadly chemicals and a trove of neo-Nazi, antigovernment literature.
According to Levitas, who has testified for nearly two decades as an expert witness in state, federal and Canadian courts, the Krar case is only the most recent and dramatic example of the threat posed by domestic terrorists. James Kopp, who was found guilty in 2003 for the 1998 shooting of Dr. Barnett Slepian in Buffalo, New York, was affiliated with the shadowy underground anti-abortion network the Army of God. Matthew Hale, leader of the white supremacist group the World Church of the Creator, is due to stand trial in Chicago this year on charges of soliciting the murder of a federal judge.
....This all fit in rather nicely with fanatical gun culture and extreme religious beliefs of the radical right. After all, the Davidians were wanted on gun charges and had unconventional religious beliefs. So, for those white supremacists that worship fully automatic weapons and believe that Jews are the children of Satan, it wasn't all that difficult to convince them that the government was out to murder them, as well."

An interesting look at the rise of the "gun rights" movement....

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17637

[kalian]

1. So...am I a "religious gun-nut"?

I own several handguns, rifles and "assault" rifles... I guess
I'm your enemy, right?
:eyes:
Get a friggin clue.

[MrBenchley]

3. You tell us

You sure seem amazingly threatened by a discussion of the far fringe of right wing politics.

Wonder why that is.

[kalian]

9. Because I believe in my rights to own guns.....

you want to continue to infringe upon that...?

[MrBenchley]

12. Nuff said....

[kalian]

19. What are you alluding too...?

that I am your enemy then...?

[demsrule4life]

2. Militia movement peaked at around 10,000

what is that about .0000000000000000000000000000001% percent of gun owners?

[MrBenchley]

5. And yet I'll bet it's the bunch

that actually believes what they hear from John Stossel, Bob Novak, the Washington Times, Newsmax, CNS, etc. and pass it along as if it's gospel.

[kalian]

10. Exactly....

and these low-brows in the south are no threat to anybody but
themselves.
If the shit were to ever hit the fan they would be the first
to cower in fear.

[alwynsw]

20. I'm on your side here, Kiddo

and I'm also a southerner by birth. I live south of the Mason-Dixon. As I recall, most of the militia hubbub has centered in Idaho and Montana - at least those that made the news. I'm discounting the religious fanatics at Waco - that wasn't a militia group as I recall, but misguided folks looking for salvation that had been willingly (for the most part) brainwashed by a certifiable mental case.

Proud owner of 3 overflowing gun safes. BIG ONES! (the safes - and some of the guns)

[kalian]

29. Didn't mean any offense by the remark about the southerners....

;)
I'd have more guns if their prices weren't so damned artificially
high...thanks to certain gun "laws". :eyes:

[alwynsw]

30. No problem. No offense taken.

[alwynsw]

18. Actually about 0.000125%

For any other cause, study, or research that's a statistically insignificant amount. In this case, it's a vast army of evil in the eyes of the anti-RKBA activists.

[Ms. Wonderful]

4. This strikes me as apples and oranges,

to coin a phrase. ;-)

The Militia movement must NEVER be confused with people who want to have guns.

The Militia movement is racist, anti-Semitic, right-wing and anti-government.

That has nothing to do with people having guns. I would prefer people not have assault weapons and that they do use trigger locks.

However, I don't believe these issues should be co-mingled. It's a non-starter, IMO.

(I am a gun owner and a hunter, and I believe that law-abiding adults have the right to own firearms. Wesley Clark)

[MrBenchley]

7. Really?

"The Militia movement is racist, anti-Semitic, right-wing and anti-government."
And the largest gun owners group, the NRA, reaches out to such specimens...

The leader of the second largest gun owners group, Larry Pratt of the GOA, held a kaffeeklatch with these nutcases.

Examine any of the gun owners forums online, where gun owners gather to swap lies and feed each others hysteria and you'll find plenty of racist, bigoted crap... but you'll find nary a word condemning that racist, bigoted crap. Nor will you find any concern that the two largest gun owner groups play footsie with these nutcases.

[kalian]

11. You started this thread as flame bait...nice job dude....

:eyes:

[MrBenchley]

13. Not even close to true....

One has to wonder who would flame in defense of these specimens...but I guess I underestimated the depths to which the RKBA crowd would sink...

[Ms. Wonderful]

15. I still don't believe

this post addresses my #4! :shrug:

[MrBenchley]

17. Well, I do

[alwynsw]

21. A toast to that accurate post!

:toast:

[Ms. Wonderful]

27. Back atcha!

:toast:

[alwynsw]

28. Go post some more

I wanna send you a Pm and I can't until you hit the elusive "Magic Number".

Welcome to the nuthouse!

[madrchsod]

6. little Georgie has got

these guys all upset. they really hate Georgie,probably more than Clinton. he sold them out,is being led by the "judeans" in his government. there are really pissed about letting in the Mexicans and the patriotic act. little Georgie says nothing about these guys-nothing at all. these storm troopers/brown shirts are far more dangerous than any furnier attack and you may live next to or work with them...

oh yes 95+% of gun owners are good citizens, it`s that tiny little bunch of paranoids that make gun ownership a big deal.

[Paladin]

8. Good Post, Benchley

If you're known by the company you keep---and I believe that you are---you militant RKBA supporters are in trouble. And you RKBAers who gripe about the Democratic Party not welcoming you and your beliefs with open arms: your inevitable association with such radical, violence-prone gun rights groups is a primary reason. It might be different if you occasionally mentioned a sporting firearm in this forum, but all we hear about from you is pistols and assault weapons, ad fucking nauseum, the same sort of weapons that give all the weirdos a twitch......

[demsrule4life]

14. So how many gun owners have never had anything to do with groups

like this? 99.9% or so? So don't give us crap that we are known by the company we keep.

[MrBenchley]

23. And how many leap to defend groups like this?

"The fact is, the number of domestic terrorist acts in the past five years far outweighs the number of international acts, says Mark Pitcavage of the fact-finding department at the Anti-Defamation League. "We do have home-grown hate in the United States, people who are just as ill-disposed to the American government as any international terrorist group," he says.
Levitas estimates that there are approximately 25,000 right-wing extremist members and activists and some 250,000 sympathizers. The Southern Poverty Law Center counted 708 hate groups in 2002.
While Mr. Pitcavage was surprised the Krar case did not receive more attention, "It is a fact that a lot of stories involving domestic extremists get undercovered," he says. He points to a case he calls one of "the major terrorist plots of the 1990s" in which militia from around the country converged in central Texas allegedly to attack a military base. They were arrested at a campground near Fort Hood on the morning of July 4, 1997, with a large collection of weapons and explosives. "There was virtually no media coverage of that incident either," says Pitcavage."

http://truthout.org/docs_03/123003F.shtml

[alwynsw]

24. I believe that I'd run away yelling and screaming (figuratively)

from a militia group meeting if I stumbled into one. Never been there. Never done that. Will never do that. I own several firearms.

[alwynsw]

31. Associating alll gun owners with militia groups is like

associating all Dems to the Chicago Daly (sp?) machine.

It flies like a rock.

[MrBenchley]

43. Gee, but then all gun owners

aren't spouting this gun rights rubbish either.

[alwynsw]

56. You're correct. Only those of us who wish to maintain our rights and

freedoms "spout" what you refer to as rubbish.

[MrBenchley]

81. Or those who dream of killing their fellow Americans

while slinking through the tunnels under their houses...

[MrBenchley]

16. Thank you....

Guess there's no right wing nonsense too extreme for the RKBA crowd here not to saddle up and defend....

One has to wonder why, on a board for Democrats and progressives, somebody would claim a post about the farthest right fringe of politics was "flamebait."

But then one also has to wonder why every RKBA argument depends on deception or distortion...or why every speck of RKBA "evidence" is dredged out of right wing cesspools like Newsmax.

[alwynsw]

22. Handguns (pistols as you put it) are sporting arms.

I hunt with pistols. I target shoot with pistols. I plink (casual target shooting) with pistols.

They are also superb self and home defense weapons. How do I know that? I have used a handgun for self defense as well.

on edit; I own no assault weapons. I do own a few that LOOK like assault weapons. Full auto is simply too expensive to shoot for fun IMO.

[Paladin]

32. Like I Said......

....nothing but pistols and assault weapons. Ad fucking nauseum.

God forbid any of you guys should ever express enthusiasm about a Winchester Model 70 hunting rifle.....

[beevul]

33. You just don't get it.

To most gun owners, a gun is a gun is a gun. You militant rkba "denyers" don't get that. You anti-gun supporters who complain who about being compared to grabbers: your inevitable association with such radical gun banning groups is a primary reason.

You say we talk about assault weapons. If it weren't for a ban which the anti-gun extremists themselves admit doesn't work, pushed by the most anti-gun extremists, which some unfortunate Democratic leaders mistakenly bought into, that contrived term would not even exist, and Democrats would be in a far better position today than we are.

The majority of the time the phrase "assault weapon" is mentioned down here, its to correct someone who has a verry incorrect definition of the term. That or to try to talk sense into someone who thinks everything but a Winchester Model 70 is an evil gun.

[MrBenchley]

47. Actually, as this thread shows....

it seems like we get it all too well.

[DavidMS]

77. Just to continue on the theme mentioned above:

When you refer to one of these:



Use the term assualt gun.

When refering to one of these:


one of these (please not the $200 dollar possisition on the safty):

or one of these (picture is too grany to make out the $200 position on the safty):


Call it an assualt rifle. These rifles fall under the National Firearms Act.

However if the markings on the safty are like this:


Its not an assault rifle.

It slightly bothers me that these terms are confused. I find it more difficult to discuss a contensious issue when terms are confused so I cannot tell what some means to say.

For instance:

I am glad that assault guns fall under the NFA.
The finantial and regulatory bariers to owning an assault rifle are conciderable.
An ar-15 looks like an assault rifle but is not one.

Edited for clarity.

[FeebMaster]

34. Don't you mean

the Winchester model 70 sniper rifle?

[Paladin]

38. The Term "Sniper Rifle" Is Yours, Not Mine

n/t

[FeebMaster]

48. You're the one that

brought up the Winchester model 70. As far as I'm concerned it's just a rifle.

[Paladin]

51. As Far As I'm Concerned......

....it's just a rifle, too. But then, I'm one of those irritating guys who favors gun control, but who also knows a considerable amount about guns......

[alwynsw]

40. Odd thing. The Mod. 70 was adopted as a sniper rifle.

It was originally designed as a sporting rifle. To date, its' most widespread use is as a sporter, predominately on 30.06 and .270. It's a favorite of medium game (deer, antelope, etc.)hunters.

[Paladin]

52. Gee, Thanks For The History Lesson

I once owned a Model 70, one of the last of the much-admired pre-64 models, in .270. It wasn't a sniper rifle.......

[beevul]

35. "If you're known by the company you keep---and I believe that you are"...

"Bring heavy and intermediate sniper rifles under the control of the National Firearms Act."

http://www.vpc.org/studies/sniper.htm


That Winchester Model 70 hunting rifle you just mentioned is unliked by the company YOU keep. They want bring guns like the model 70 under the NFA. Should we who are pro-gun believe you're being honest in bringing up and characterizing a model 70 as a hunting rifle when "the company you keep" calls it a sniper rifle and wants to NFA it?

Say, did you just break the theory of being known by the company you keep?

[Paladin]

39. The Term "Sniper Rifle" Is Yours, Not Mine

n/t

[beevul]

49. Actually, Paladin...

the term "sniper rifle" has been around a long time. Whos term it really is...well we could maybe find out by doing some research, but its really not important. What is important at the moment is this statement: "If you're known by the company you keep---and I believe that you are".

See, the company YOU keep decided to apply it to guns like the winchester in question. They suggest to "Bring heavy and intermediate sniper rifles under the control of the National Firearms Act." Also
among the company YOU keep, is an elitist hypocrite that bought her son a 30.06 with a scope-that *might* be a winchester like the one in question. Callin guns evil, while at the same time allowing her son to have one.

Now, if I had made that statement, I guess I would have some things to think about.Whether or not I am known by the company I keep, like I believe others are, might be one of them.

[RoeBear]

36. One would have to be a hunter...

...to have any interest in hunting guns.

Since I don't hunt my guns are handguns and a home defense shotgun.

[alwynsw]

41. Once again. Handguns are also sporting firearms.

I hunt and target shoot with them.

[alwynsw]

50. I get all excited about my Weatherby rifles

and my Browning and Benelli shotguns. They just don't get attacked on this board as handguns do.

[Paladin]

53. Do You Happen To Have a Weatherby .270 Magnum?

Very impressive deer rifle. It's not a sniper rifle, either.....

[alwynsw]

58. In the Weatherby line I have the .300 MAG, 30.06, .240 MAG, and

.460 MAG. All are Mark V except the 30.06. It's a Vanguard Weatherguard - for convenience with the usual KY weather during deer season - RAIN.

Sorry, no .270 MAG.

[MrBenchley]

25. The peculiar Mr. Gale

More from Levitas' research...

"Gale initially relied on a network of Christian Identity believers and military veterans to spread the Posse message. But he soon began promoting the idea among right-wing tax protesters as well. His suggestion to form local Posse units also was greeted warmly by members of the National Association for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, and other groups devoted to "Second Amendment Absolutism," which interpreted the Constitution as conferring an unfettered right to gun ownership.
And because many of these militant defenders of the Second Amendment also shared Gale's belief that America was already in the grasp of a communist dictatorship, they were eager to band together in preparation for all-out war. During the early 1970s, Posse groups spread rapidly from Gale's home state of California up the West Coast and then to the Midwest.
By the mid-'80s, the Posse had metamorphosed again, becoming a national movement of some 12,000-15,000 hardcore activists and seven to 10 times that number of more passive supporters. Politically and demographically diverse -- though still predominantly rural -- it included farmers, laborers, small-business men and the unemployed, as well as former and current tax protesters, old-line Christian Identity believers, hardcore Posse traditionalists, former Republicans and Democrats, longtime right-wing activists, and soon-to-be-indoctrinated fresh recruits.
Violent incidents like the 1983 killing of two federal marshals in North Dakota by tax protester and Posse activist Gordon Kahl had prompted many to drop the Posse label and call themselves "Christian Patriots" instead. But the name change was purely cosmetic. The movement still embraced the Posse's extreme interpretations of the Constitution as well as its hatred of the banking system, the income tax, national government and the welfare state. It focused on contemporary hot-button issues, like high interest rates and debtors' rights, yet remained fixated on age-old myths about Jewish plots for world domination and the inherent supremacy of white Anglo-Saxon culture. Most of the movement's members shunned the overtly racist symbols and rhetoric of groups like the Klan, even as they embraced Christian Identity theology and aspired to vigilantism. Klan politics had too much historical baggage and was more vulnerable to criticism, while the legalistic rhetoric of Christian Patriotism was intriguing and easier to justify. "

http://atlanta.creativeloafing.com/2002-11-27/cover.html

[alwynsw]

26. For once we agree (on the militia issue) They serve no useful purpose.

We also have our extremists groups. In my book, ALF and ELF are no better than the radical right militia groups and Neo-Nazis.

What's your take?

[RoeBear]

37. Let's ban em all...

...don't wait for them to commit a crime just put them in jail now.

[alwynsw]

42. Preemptive justice?

Yeah. It worked so well in the USSR and Iraq and Iran and Libya and China and on and on and on.

[1a2b3c]

44. After all, the Davidians were wanted on gun charges and had unconventional

Unconventional religious beliefs??? What the fuck, hang them sons a bitches. This is america for fucks sake, you dont get freedom of religion here god damn it.

[MrBenchley]

45. Holy Koresh!!

Bless these our sacred fetish objects (snicker)

[1a2b3c]

46. my butt plugs?

You lost me grasshopper.

[alwynsw]

60. Leave it to you 1a

Who else could attempt to turn this into a sex thread - and do it so effortlessly.

[MrBenchley]

64. Uh-HUH

Effortless butt plugs are sexy? Uh-HUH.

I'm glad I didn't say that about the RKBA crowd or there'd never be an end to the pissing and moaning.

[slackmaster]

54. Another Day, Another Round of Guilt By Association

:boring:

[drumz4hire]

55. Militias?

Bench...that is soooo 1995 :rolleyes:

[MrBenchley]

57. Yeah, you know...

the kind of trash the RKBA crowd is defending...

[alwynsw]

59. Not this member of the "RKBA crowd"

Note earlier posts in this thread.

[MrBenchley]

61. Yeah, we can tell

from your spirited defense of the McNutcase family and their inert explosives in the other thread....

[demsrule4life]

62. Inert and explosives do not belong together

since it is inert there is no explosives present. That ends todays lesson.

[MrBenchley]

63. Yes, Dems

it's tragic that the McShitholes did not have real missiles and mortar rounds in the tunnels under their house. I feel your pain.

[demsrule4life]

65. Yes it was tragic for the anti side

[MrBenchley]

67. Gee, it's Larry Pratt

and his band of numbnutz snivelling about it.....

[demsrule4life]

68. If it wasent tragic

then story would'nt of needed changing.

[MrBenchley]

69. Gee, dems....

You mean you think this tale of a bunch of ignorant loonies with a tunnel under their house isn't pathetic and ugly enough?

[alwynsw]

72. Gee! They had a tunnel under their house.

I had a tunnel under one I used to own. Something about the 50's and nuclear scares. It led from the cellar to the bomb shelter.

[MrBenchley]

73. Doesn't everybody?

Never can tell when the cactus are gonna riot....or a nuclear strike on the ass end of nowhere in the desert.

[alwynsw]

66. This is a spirited defense?

I have no problem with enforcing laws - even if they are asinine. I especially have no problem enforcing laws concerning illegal explosives.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=35052#35149

To further clarify. I have no problem with the prosecution. I do have a problem with how it was done.

[MrBenchley]

70. Even for the RKBA crowd it's lame

but if you guys want to pretend that these desert dingbats are saints because the mortar rounds and missiles they had stored in the tunnels under their house were inert, knock yourself out.

But those are the "patriots" Levitas is talking about.

[alwynsw]

71. Now they had missles?

What are you going to add to the story next, tanks or F-16's?

[MrBenchley]

74. I can't help it if you can't remember the damn details

[Columbia]

75. You are the one who can't remember the details

There were NO missiles found. Get your facts straight.

[MrBenchley]

76. Yeah, surrrrrrrrrrrre....

"Search warrants show that, in addition to the tracer bullets, investigators discovered four used missile tube launchers, an inert 2.75-inch rocket warhead...."

http://ktla.trb.com/news/local/la-me-sherburne21jan21,0,142568.story?coll=ktla-home-3

[Columbia]

78. Exactly

All INERT and LEGAL.

Just because I have a steering wheel doesn't mean I have a car.

Another shining example of the lies, disinformation, and exagerrations spewed by the anti's.

What a steaming pantload from you.

[MrBenchley]

79. I know the RKBA crowd's disappointed they didn't have working missiles

Get over it.....

By the way, I said...
"70. Even for the RKBA crowd it's lame
but if you guys want to pretend that these desert dingbats are saints because the mortar rounds and missiles they had stored in the tunnels under their house were inert, knock yourself out."

The story said....
""Search warrants show that, in addition to the tracer bullets, investigators discovered four used missile tube launchers, an inert 2.75-inch rocket warhead...."

http://ktla.trb.com/news/local/la-me-sherburne21jan21,0,142568.story?coll=ktla-home-3

Yeah, as usual it's the RKBA crowd that's spewing the "lies, disinformation, and exagerrations...." And sticking up for the scummiest right wing loonies around, to boot.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

82. The only lies are from the RKBA crowd

What else is new?

[Columbia]

83. Oh brother

For just ONCE, I'd like to see you fess up to an obvious mistake (like this whole missile thing). I'm sure I'll have to wait for a while though... :eyes:

[MrBenchley]

84. Yeah, ri-i-i-i-i-i-i-ight...

Maybe you should call up the McShithole family and their militia friends. I'm sure they'd sympathize.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

86. This from dems

who said Ed Asner was a communist and quotes Bob NNovak seriously...

Too frigging funny.

[Moderator]

87. Locking thread

Surprise - this thread seems to have gotten off track and with the yellow flags flying I think its time to lock 'er up.