Why aren't blackpowder and antique guns legally considered firearms?

[cowcommander]

Even the ATF isn't worried a kid might go on a shooting rampage with a musket?

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

1. If you are looking for logic or sense from the ATF - you won't find it.

The ATF has a rich history of inconsistency and lapses of reason in it's past.

One of the more comical is that at one point they proclaimed shoelaces to be machineguns. They consider even components of machineguns to be machineguns themselves. Someone had used only a shoelace to convert a rifle to fire automatically. So the ATF declared anyone possessing shoelaces to be in possession of an illegal machine-gun.

Did you know you can buy a Gatling Gun and it's not considered a "machinegun" despite incredible rates of fire?

Cav Arms, a manufacturer, was given WRITTEN permission to produce rifles at a facility and then subsequently prosecuted for producing those firearms in accordance with those granted permissions. Yes, there have been a few examples of people/companies given permission and then the ATF renigs on the allowed permission.

Don't forget things like WACO, TX.

If you are looking for rhyme or reason from an agency like the ATF then grab a Snickers... it's gonna be awhile.

[Euromutt]

15. In fairness, it's not all the ATF's doing

The ATF doesn't decide whether an item is legally a firearm; it only gets to determine whether a firearm falls within the legal definition of "machine gun," "SRS," "SBS," "AOW" or "destructive device." Honestly, I don't envy them their job; people keep coming up with new models of firearm or modifications to firearms that the authors of the NFA and GCA never considered, not to mention stuff that's obviously intended to circumvent the letter of the NFA and GCA while thoroughly violating the spirit.

And it makes sense that a Gatling gun isn't considered a machine gun, because it's not. Mechanically, it's a manual repeater (or more accurately, six or more manual repeaters operated by a shared mechanism), and you have to keep turning the crank to make it keep firing. The rate of fire isn't that "incredible" either; initially, the practical rate of fire was 200-400 rpm, and though it improved to 700-900 rpm in later models, that did require having two guys to feed it ammunition quickly enough.

Of course, you hook one up to an electric motor to drive the mechanism (like John Gatling himself did with an M1893) and as far as the ATF is concerned, you've turned it into a "machine gun," even though mechanically, it still isn't. But it is now a firearm that will fire multiple rounds "automatically" with a single function of the "trigger" (even though the "trigger" is actually the on/off switch of the electric motor) so for the purposes of the NFA, it's now a "machine gun."

[slackmaster]

2. A LeMat pistol would make a great rampage weapon

Nine shots of .42-caliber ball, plus a short-barrelled 16-gauge shotgun, all in a concealable package.

[safeinOhio]

3. One reason might be

few if any rampages have occurred using primitive black powder weapons in the last 20 years. I'll bet more robberies have been recorded using BB guns.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

5. That reason doesn't jive with the fact that NUMEROUS firearms are used to commit little/no crime

and yet they are regulated by the ATF.

For example, no one has committed any actual crimes with .50BMG (ie: Barret "Fifty Calibers") rifles. Yet they are regulated by the ATF. Some states even ban them despite being used to commit zero crimes. The ATF highly regulates even larger rifles under the NFA despite their lack of criminal involvement.

I would say the ATF's action or inaction based on criminal involvement with a particular weapon would be coincidental at best. If it is purposeful, then they are once again demonstrating gross inconsistencies with regard to application of their logic.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

4. In all reality... how is the ATF supposed to control firearms with no manufacturer info or serial #?

Remember, guns prior to 1968(?) did not require serial numbers or other identifying markings.
The ATF's big role in firearms is pretty much pointless if firearms are "invisible" to the system.
Makes sense that they don't care to waste time trying to oversee them.

[ileus]

6. can felons own BP guns?

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

7. I believe so. They are not "firearms".

Felons can also airguns as well, I believe.
I'm sure it's heavily dependant upon the resident's state

No harm in a felon owning an BP firearm, IMO.

[X_Digger]

8. Depends on the state.

There is no _federal_ statute preventing them from possessing a black powder rifle or pistol, per the 1968 GCA / USC 18.

Some states, however, go so far as to include bows and arrows in the list of items prohibited to felons (Idaho or Iowa, iirc). Other states have a means or reestablishing a felon's rights, which allows them to use black powder weapons, but not usually 'firearms', since federal law would apply (with 'deferred adjudication' / 'annulment', 'vacated', etc, the felony may or may not still apply to federal standards).

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PavePusher]

11. Can you even define what an "assault weapon" is"?

Is it any more or less dangerous than any other firearm? Why or why not?

[Kennah]

10. I recall ...

... a dubious flirtation with "potato launchers" or "spud guns" in the 1990s.

There was actually some discussion these should be treated as firearms and regulated by the ATF.

LE wisely sat quietly while the fad died down. Had they raised a stink, it woulda created a shitstorm of new FFL licenses manufacturing spud guns.

Sometimes it's better NOT to have a new law. It can make things much worse, despite fears about musketeers running amok.

[spin]

12. Perhaps you could list recent incidents where crime was committed with a black powder ...

weapon or an antique firearm.

More crimes are probably committed with kitchen knives. I can't remember the last time I read an article about someone robbing a store with such a weapon.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[spin]

14. It might make more sense to regulate people buying 5 gallon gas cans ...

You can kill a lot of people with 5 gallons of gas.

Community finally rises from ashes of tragedy
St. Petersburg Times, published October 29, 2000

The supermarket in Palm River Plaza has been closed for more than 16 years, but people in Clair Mel still know it by name.

The Billy Ferry Winn-Dixie.

Billy Ferry was the neighborhood crazy man. The Winn-Dixie was the neighborhood market.

As evening fell on Saturday, July 3, 1984, some voice in his head told Ferry to hurl a bucket of gasoline across the checkout lines crowded with shoppers buying picnic stuff for the Fourth of July.

The shoppers, the checkout clerks and the bag boys had no chance.

Ferry struck a match. Five people died, 13 others were horribly burned. And this little subdivision east of Tampa was scarred for what seemed forever. The mall soon was all but abandoned.
http://www.sptimes.com/News/102900/TampaBay/Community_finally_ris.shtml

Or for that matter, you could consider regulating archery equipment. An archer with a quiver of arrows could easily kill a number of people in a very short period of time.

Check out this youtube video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2v48Cp-NYMk&feature=channel

[DeadEyeDyck]

16. I built my own Phillt deringer

.50 cal. With a hot load, I can knocl down a wall.

[spin]

17. Sounds like a cure for back pain to me ...

Two rounds from each hand and you will forget how much your back hurt.

[old mark]

18. I have been a handgun owner here in PA for over 40 years now - I recall

ONE incident in which a BP revolver was used in a crime over all that time...


The loading and accessories required make them great as hobbies, but they are only practical weapons if that is all there is - they are better than single shot muzzle loaders, but obsolete compared to anything else...You get 5 shots, then take 2 minutes to reload...


mark

[Kennah]

19. Was it used to inflict blunt force trauma?