Mexico news - Ranch owner defends self, property from cartel

[Xela]

Please pardon the sources, it seems the story hasn't hit the mainstream media.

This news is going viral in Mexico

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/high_noon_at_not_ok_corral_95TSj4qIZSQuVHRTWDVvzN

http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/world-mainmenu-26/north-america-mainmenu-36/5334-don-alejo-garza-tamez-true-grit

CNN has a link to the article(via borderlandbeat.com):
http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-521901?ref=feeds%2Flatest

Another one:
http://politifi.com/news/Rest-in-Peace-Hero-Don-Alejo-Garza-Tamez-1339873.html

He has ballads (corridos) written already to his memory:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWnfa4MbXnc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgL9kK3YGFQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQdIkPvfVF0

[Xela]

1. Regarding a couple of the article's sources

Regarding a couple of the article's sources...

I tried another search this morning and I still haven't found a mention of the news in more objective sources. But nothing. Not Austin, Houston, Dallas, nor San Antonio...which is kinda weird.

And of course, the BBC doesn't carry news of that type (self-defense with firearms).

Xela

[cleanhippie]

2. What was your point here?

Was this just an informational post or were trying to make a point?

[Xela]

3. Information piece

Primarily an informative post, just sharing.

But we have been aware, on and off in this forum, how there is a lot of misinformation regarding firearm gun laws in Mexico (that civilian's can't own them, for example). And it is hoped that the original post helps to break those types of myths.

Also, there has been a lot of misinformation regarding firearms going to Mexico and making things worse. Well, just like in America, there are a lot of unreported cases where a crime is stopped thanks to a firearm. Unfortunately, we don't here about those cases.

Sadly, this situation ended in a tragedy. But there are many more that don't, and we'll never hear of them.

Xela

[cleanhippie]

4. ok, thanks.

Its hard to tell sometimes, as some like to post inflammatory articles as flamebait.

[lawodevolution]

5. Basically a normal person can't own a gun in Mexico (legally)

There are still guns bought before the gun stores were closed and it isn't clear the rancher owned his gun legally. There is only one gun store in Mexico, run by the federales. To own a gun legally you have to be rich, famous of ruling class or connected. The inability of a normal citizen to buy a firearm legally is effectively a gun ban.

[Xela]

6. Firearm ownership in Mexico

Legal firearm ownership is alive and well in Mexico. All you have to do is visit 2 of Mexico's most popular firearm related forums:

http://enlamira.com.mx/foros/
http://www.mexicoarmado.com/forum.php

Regarding the legality of Mr. Garza's firearms, I have not seen documentation to the contrary. He was a rancher and a founding member of a hunting club. I'm almost certain there was no problem with that regard.

Xela

[lawodevolution]

8. With a gun possession rate of 15 firearms (legal or illegal) per 100 people based on the

2007 small arms survey I wonder how many are illegal and how many are legal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_gun_ownership
France and Greece have double the gun ownership rates of Mexico.

Those forums are not full of regular people. In every country with a gun ban there is a class of VIPs who can still own guns.

[Xela]

13. Do not confuse legal ownership with legal concealed carry

Concealed carry is a right mostly reserved for VIP's, unfortunately. Legal firearm ownership is not as uncommon as you have been led to believe.

Xela

[Katya Mullethov]

9. I am perusing the Armado Boards

And they seem quite convinced their GSGs are "formidable weapons" I also notice that the neither the AR platform nor the AK seem to be anywhere near as popular there , as they are in the United States . Is it the sand ? That's gotta be it , it's the sand .

[lawodevolution]

10. All military style weapons are banned in Mexico as well

So if they have an AR15 or AK47 section, they are either talking about their contraband in Mexico or they are Mexican ex pats living in the USA.

[Katya Mullethov]

11. So things are not alive and well .

Duly noted . Not like they dont have big assed signs .

[Xela]

14. That sign is intended for Americans without proper permits and/or illegal importation.

Legal firearm ownership is alive and well.

Sure, they standards may not fit our standards (as the military-type firearm scenario has been brought up).

But anybody wishing to legal own firearms in Mexico can, and does.

There are limitations and legalities to consider of course.

Xela

[lawodevolution]

20. Keep repeating it and maybe they will believe it.

You need permission from the defense minister of Mexico to buy a gun legally in Mexico and there is only one gun store run by the defense minister of Mexico in Mexico city. Why do they only need one gun store in Mexico? Because most people have no hope of getting permission to own a gun legally so the volume of sales is so low thanks to the ban on most Mexicans from owning guns.

[Xela]

21. You condemn what you don't understand

...Mexican nationals exchange/sell/trade/buy firearms freely and legally in Mexico between themselves, and without recurring to the UCAM (the store you made reference to), all the time.

The forums mentioned earlier both have buy/sell/trade sections in order to do so. Hunting and shooting clubs are also places where they trade, and so are target ranges. It was even reported in the Mexican media how civilians could obtain just about anything they wished in the black markets of Tepito (Mexico, City).

As of recently, many major newspapers even allowed classified notices to buy/sell/trade firearms. Some have moved away from doing so, unfortunately.

It's a very complex issue. Honest civilians owning legal firearms can sell them without any problems. But there is also a thriving black market, that can not be denied.

I honestly believe you are confusing "concealed carry" vs. firearm ownership (for hunting, self-defense at home, target shooting, collecting). And it's true, it's practically impossible for a regular Joe to obtain a concealed carry permit in Mexico (only VIP's are generally allowed to have one).

There simply is no "ban on most Mexicans from owning guns". Your assertion is false.

Xela

[PavePusher]

23. It doesn't sound to me like legal guns are easy to come by in Mexico...

http://www.davekopel.com/espanol/Mexican-Gun-Laws.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Mexico

http://tijuana.usconsulate.gov/tijuana/warning.html

http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/09/robert-farago/are-mexicos-gun-control-laws-fueling-lawlessness/

At least in a calibre I'd want for self-defense.
But I could be wrong.

[Xela]

24. "At least in a calibre I'd want for self-defense"

You are correct in this regard. Mexico has different standards with regards what can be owned for self defense.

Xela

[Xela]

16. Generally

Military-type firearms can not be legally owned/registered by civilians.

But there have been reports of Garands being registered (although they are clearly described by law as reserved for the military).

Also, a point of contention in Mexico is the Ruger Mini-14 (by some perhaps viewed as a military type). In some military districts they have been registered to civilians without any problems (in the state of Sinaloa, for example). But in other places it is not (as it is in Tamaulipas).

Interestingly, the UCAM is now selling AR-15's in .22 caliber to civilians.

Xela

[russ1943]

7. Defended or got killed attempting to? Any difference?

The OP title/heading “Ranch owner defends self, property……..” Is at the very least a distortion.
From the NY Post article linked; “Inside, amid a pile of rubble, was the lifeless, bullet-riddled Garza, two weapons at his side. The unassuming timber businessman (the ranch owner) was given a hero's burial last week in his native Monterrey, Mexico.”
“Ranch owner ................killed ........................attempting to defend self, property……..” would be less deceptive and more accurate.

On the slim possibility that someone might be stupid enough to believe anything posted in this forum,,,,,,, anyone from the US that might carry any weapon of any kind into Mexico…….DON”T. Claiming not to know about the law will not get you leniency…….so says the US Department of State. http://tijuana.usconsulate.gov/tijuana/warning.html

[SteveM]

12. When Prohibitions Collide. Now showing. nt

[Xela]

15. Duly noted...

Good point on the title. All is relative, I guess.

Just to clarify, I have made no claims that is OK to carry weapons into Mexico just because (although difficult, it can be done legally).

How that can be construed from my posts I don't understand.

Xela

[Francis Marion]

17. God bless him.

This brave man deserves to be honored. I am sorry to hear about his murder. Sadly, he didn't have a chance to shoot more cartel scum.

And Xela, thank you for sharing his story and for clearing up misconceptions about gun rights in Mexico.

There have been so many good people murdered by Mexican drug criminals.

Yes, corruption exists in Mexico. But so do extraordinarily brave, stand-up people of integrity who pay with their life by refusing to participate in corruption, and who fight the cartels. They are judges, journalists, cops and prosecutors who are tortured to death and hacked to pieces by gangs funded by American drug consumers.

[pipoman]

18. Even if guns were available, most couldn't afford them

I am currently working with two families who are naturalized US citizens whose fathers both are livestock farmers in Mexico. Both fathers are 65-70 years old. Both water their livestock by dropping a bucket down a hand dug well, then carrying the water to their animals. We are sending pump heads and cylinders down, but many many ranchers in Mexico can't even afford these simple, labor saving, relatively inexpensive luxuries. It is doubtful they could afford a gun even if they were allowed to buy one.

[Xela]

19. Farmers, ranchers

Yes, I hear you, and I understand. My grandfather lived the last years of his life in such environment (semi-deserts, in the Northern state of Coahuila). And I spent a couple of summers with him, sometimes hauling water from the Rio Grande to his ranch in a truck every other day.

I realize that economic conditions are difficult in many cases. But even poor families consider a firearm part of everyday necesities. That's why the law is more flexible with this social group.

In Mexico, people who live in agricultural areas or live off the land have particular rights by law to own and carry, pistols and/or revolvers of the allowed calibers (.38 Special, .380 ACP, and under), and .22 caliber rifles and/or shotguns. But this only allowed in rural, non-urban areas.

No. Some don't, or can't. But others can, and do.

Not trying to start a heated debate. Just trying to clear up matters a bit.

Kind regards,

Xela

[Katya Mullethov]

22. So did Don go toe to toe with a crew carrying M16's and grenades

Armed with a brace of rimfire bolt action rifles and bird guns ? A particularly embarrassing fact that would make that story rock.

Whomever might assume title (or possession )of the land in the next few months will be the real story . People are naming their newborn sons after this guy , so I expect this will come out later . Maybe .

[Xela]

25. Hunting rifles

It is generally believed at this time that he owned and used some type of hunting rifles.

.270, .30'06, .30'30, or even .243 Win come to mind given the area and type of game. Those calibers are also very traditional in those parts of Mexico.

I have not seen any mention of the exact type of firearms used by Don Alejo Garza Tamez as of yet.

Just a tiny clarification. The "Don" is an honorific title, like Mr. or Rev. "Don" is not his name. Alejo is the first name, Garza is his paternal last name, and Tamez his maternal last name.

Xela

[oneshooter]

27. Military ammo is not allowed for private sale in Mexico.

Several years ago, I was working as a private security officer in Mexico. We were told that certain "military calibers" were not allowed to be owned by civilians. These included 308, 30-06, 223, 45acp, 9mm, and any others "declared by the Govt. as unlawful". This would have put a real crimp on protecting the client, but we received "Government Permission" to carry concealed, and use what ever caliber we needed".

Civilians are very restricted in both the type, and caliber of weapon they may posses.

The 38 Super is very popular in Mexico.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[Xela]

28. Again, it depends...

There are many legal loopholes in the law (it was stupidly drafted in a rush during the 1968-1971 civil disturbances. Some of it doesn't even make sense whatsoever.). Authorities also use their own discretion and interpretion according to the administrator-on-duty's view (whether it be a military officer (or NCO), or someone from the judicial branch). Lack of legal reference, lack of general basic education, or lack of firearm/ammunition knowledge plays a big part in this.

On the other hand, the private security industry is very regulated (especially these past few years), but they still tend to get away with a lot of things not stipulated in legislation (they have a BIG lobby in Congress).

The .38 Super is addressed very specifically by law as forbidden for use/possession of/by civilians. Yes. It may be popular. But it is not legal for civilians. Having said that, police forces, para-military and private security get away with it. Military officers are OK to own it.



Xela

[Katya Mullethov]

30. You are allowed to run your own whiskey and grow your own weed in the US

As long as you dont get caught . Is that a good analogy ?

[Xela]

32. Your analogy is pushing it...

...but...

Given the current fluid legal (or lack thereof) conditions...

...much can be extra-polatelated....at some levels.

Sad to say.

Xela

[Xela]

26. This version of events...

...points to:

"...an assortment of shot guns, 22 caliber rifles and a 45 cal. hand gun..."

http://unmomentoplease.blogspot.com/2010/12/don-alejo-garza-tamez-rip.html

I have not found further/exact details online.

Xela

[Glassunion]

29. Heartbreaking...

[PavePusher]

31. Considering he planted 4 and possibly/probably winged others....

using those, it sure makes one ponder on what he could have done with a brace of Mossberg 590's, an AR15 or AK and a pair of 1911's.

[Xela]

33. (No comment)...but...

...your catching the drift...

Xela

[Katya Mullethov]

34. Maybe it wasnt a DTO crew after all .

Just thinking out loud
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&biw=1024&bih=554&q=Mexico+Joseph+Proctor+staged&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=c27231f674954267

[Katya Mullethov]

35. After further consideration

The mere thought of the Mexican military behaving in such a fashion is patently preposterous .