Floridians and their guns

[russ1943]

December 8, 2010 Gun discharges accidentally in McDonalds
Tavernier – A Miami man with a small caliber handgun in his pocket accidentally shot himself in the leg Tuesday morning…….. Ubeda will not be charged in connection with the accidental discharge of his firearm because Florida State Statute specifically requires the discharge of a firearm to be done “knowingly” in order for it to result in an arrest.
http://floridakeyssheriff.blogspot.com/2010/12/gun-discharges-accidentally-in.html

Accidentally should be changed to unintentionally.

[RamboLiberal]

1. Get a holster

And maybe a bigger caliber. Note the guy didn't even realize he shot himself in the leg.

[TheCowsCameHome]

2. Good thing he only shot himself.

World class jerk........

[spin]

3. Smart gun owners carry their weapons in a holster ...

for a reason.

I'm a Floridian and I use a holster. All the other Floridians that I know who carry concealed also use holsters.

Criminals often don't use holsters as they often throw their guns away when chased and an empty holster when the cops arrest you looks real bad.

[Hoyt]

4. I'm sorry, but those who think folks should carry in public aren't acting like "smart" gun owners.

Sure, there are exceptions, but jeeeeez -- who really needs a gun in most public places. Besides, no matter how smart a gun owner you are, there are plenty more who are like this fool. Next time he'll shoot an innocent bystander. Best to restrict them in most cases to home and maybe cars if folks just can't leave home without one.

[friendly_iconoclast]

5. You're entitled to your own opinion. You're *not* entitled to your own facts

I'm going to have to muddy your ideals with the real here.

Since Florida started "shall-issue" carry permits 23 years ago, less than one-half of one percent of all permits ever issued have been revoked for cause.

[PavePusher]

6. Once again you lay claim to precognition.

Prove yourself.

[Hoyt]

9. This toter discharged a weapon in public, that's a fact. Opinion - keep guns out of the public.

I think it is best. Again, you and your friends might not be as dangerous as this guy -- but there are plenty like him. I'd just as soon some kid doesn't take the next bullet discharged when some guy has to rub his gun to feel secure. That too is an opinion of an event that could have easily happened in the factual case cited.

[PavePusher]

10. You have proven hind-sight and the ability to read the news...

niether of which equal an un-explained ability to accurately read the future.

Poor dodge.

[Hoyt]

14. Point is simple -- permit holders are not as safe as you guys pretend. Guns don't belong in public.

[AtheistCrusader]

17. My wife and I have been carrying for almost 10 years.

Zero incidents.

You are projecting, methinks.

[NewMoonTherian]

20. In my opinion...

the number of incidents involving legal carry does not meet the threshold to warrant any further restriction.

I'd like to discuss this in more depth. In your opinion, where is the threshold for restriction? Have you researched the number of people who carry, the number of incidents which occur and the number of legitimate uses of those guns in forming your opinion, or is it based on different criteria?

[Hoyt]

22. My opinion is that carrying in public is not a legitimate use of a gun in most cases.

I know those that cannot leave home without one feel differently. Promoting toting in public will just encourage more folks like this ill-prepared gun owner to venture out into public. Don't see that as a good thing.

[Pavulon]

24. Has dick to do with me. Stupid fuckers drive cars, consume alchohol,

and engage in plenty of other activities that lead to death. None of them have any impact on my right to own and carry a firearm.

[X_Digger]

29. So no numbers or facts to back it up, just opinions? n/t

[NewMoonTherian]

38. But have you taken into consideration...

the lives saved via use of legally carried guns in public? In my opinion, this in its own right is reason enough to allow carry.

[jazzhound]

23. Actually permit holders *are* as safe as we "pretend".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x155031#203989

I seem to recall that X_Digger posted the stats from the state of Texas which demonstrate that only a tiny fraction of concealed permit holders have their permits revoked due to criminal misbehavior with a firearm.

[Hoyt]

26. Can't prove it by the Original Post.

[Pavulon]

27. No proof comes from statistically signifigant pools of

data. Not one off posts on the internet.

[jazzhound]

34. Excruciatingly poor dodge, as I'm not required to

rebut your evidence-free assertion using only information presented in the original post.

[X_Digger]

35. Nice straw man, did you pack his backside yourself?

Nowhere did jazzhound say that the number was zero.

"only a tiny fraction of concealed permit holders have their permits revoked due to criminal misbehavior with a firearm."

This is the graph that he mentioned..



This chart compares the rate of conviction of the general public 21+yoa to the public, 21+yoa, comparing each group to itself, not each other.

The _rate_ among CHL holders is up to 11x less.

Your anecdote proves exactly what? That it's non-zero? That'd be great, if anyone had claimed the number was zero.

*sheesh*

[PavePusher]

54. Your analysis is for shit.

One data point does not make a trend. Please take some remedial math and science.

[PavePusher]

53. They are exactly as safe as we claim.

They may not be as safe as you want, but nothing like that can ever be 100% effective.

My Civil Rights walk with me, sorry 'bout your angst...

[spin]

11. So one person did something foolish and hurt himself ...

You have to balance this incident out with all the instances where people used their licensed concealed firearms to stop an attack or a brutal crime in progress. Many of these incidents never make the news let alone any data base as often when the good guy draws his weapon, the bad guy simply runs away.

If your fear that some child might get hurt by some fool fondling his firearm while carrying in public is real, you should be able to show at least ten examples of this happening in the last five years. Incidents like these do get publicity where responsible uses of firearms usually don't unless someone bleeds.

[X_Digger]

12. All the could'as, would'as, and should'as don't amount to shit when you look at the 'does's

Please find me a story about a concealed carry person accidentally shooting a bystander.

I'll wait.

[friendly_iconoclast]

49. No one *ever* has provided an example of it here, AFAIK

I've been a lurker (and later member) here for a good four years now, and this is just the latest repeat of this myth.


To the best of my recollection, at least twenty or so prohis have assured us that innocent bystanders will be shot by a CCW

holder sometime Real Soon Now.....

[russ1943]

59. Of course, CCW holders have injured & killed bystanders.

Digger & friendly iconoclast, it is a naive unfounded presumption that since you aren’t aware of it and because it hasn’t been brought to your attention or posted in this largely pro gun enthusiast forum it just hasn’t occurred. That would be amusing except for the fact that of course, bystanders have been seriously injured and have died and concealed weapons license holders have been responsible.
On October 19, 2009, Bystander Latrecia Levine was shot and killed at The Allied
Veterans Cyber Center Internet Café (in Florida) when a man’s handgun fell out of his waistband, hit the floor and discharged, striking her in the back. The shooter, who had a concealed handgun permit, apparently had ignored a sign on the door that included firearms among the items prohibited from inside the businesswoman
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/crime/2009-10-22/story/no_charges_filed_against_man_when_gun_went_off_at_jacksonville_bus


In Michigan On May 12, 2010, bystander Geraldine Jackson, a 69-year-old Detroit
grandmother, was unintentionally shot and killed by a stray bullet fired by concealed
handgun permit holder Edward Bell, 65. The bullet—which “slammed through” the wall
of her home—struck her in the chest, killing her as she was preparing dinner for her
granddaughter and a close friend. According to police, Bell was working on a house in
the neighborhood when he was robbed with a fake gun by 19-year-old Antwan Hall and
Bell’s Chevrolet Suburban sport utility vehicle was stolen. As the alleged thief drove
away, Bell fired at him with a .45 handgun, resulting in the SUV crashing into a tree.
Police believe that it was one of these bullets that ended Jackson’s life. Hall was charged
with felony murder. http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2010/07/detroit_man_takes_plea_deal_af.html

[X_Digger]

60. So... 2 out of ~6,000,000 permit holders? Is that about it? n/t

[Pavulon]

13. Better ban cars, swimming pools, beer (4loko)

and drugs. Because now that drugs are banned no one ever OD's because drugs are gone. Oh shit...

You cant fix stupid, if this person was carrying sans holster and shot themselves how is this my problem.

[AtheistCrusader]

16. There are plenty like him?

So we can expect to see an indicident like this what, daily? Weekly? Yearly?

[Hoyt]

21. How many incidents have you seen where you really needed a gun? And I'm not talking

about needing a gun to make you FEEL safe, or a situation that could have been handled without displaying your gun.

[Katya Mullethov]

33. Once in the last month

Twice in the last year , and that makes four times in the last ten years . The once in the last month I cant really claim as Mrs Mullethov was here alone and took the shotgun to investigate just whom the dogs were ravaging . Once she called them off he was up and over that gate like OJ Simpson jumpin the TSA counter . The alpha GSD looked like he had just got through eating a chicken .

[X_Digger]

36. That wasn't an answer, that was a dodge.

Care to answer his question?

[GreenStormCloud]

37. My wife is alive because she had a gun when she needed one.

About five years ago a mugger was about to attack her, but he ran away when he discovered that she had a gun. She is a small, frail, senior citizen and would not have survived the attack.

[Hoyt]

44. I do make exceptions for women -- they usually aren't "playing" cowboy, public defender, etc.

Nor, are they likely to think they are prepared/trained to take on criminals in a public place like so many here.

Nor do they think of themselves as being in a "regulated militia."

[RSillsbee]

46. Apparently I AM trained and prepared enough

to take on a criminal in a public place. Funny how you completely ignore my posts on the subject when you postulate about how we really don't need to carry guns in public

[friendly_iconoclast]

50. How very bigoted of you.

Why am I not very surprised that you would curtail rights on account of gender?

[jazzhound]

51. That was my first reaction to the steaming pile he

served up as well.

Y'see..........you can still maintain your liberal bona-fides as long as you direct bigoted snipes toward members of the male gender.

[AtheistCrusader]

52. So you're a sexist then. Awesome.

[RSillsbee]

39. I can think of one right of the top of my head

That couldn't have been handled any other way ( Unless I wanted to fist fight w/ a mugger). that's enough for me

[Euromutt]

47. Nice little escape clause you've written yourself there

"I'm not talking about <...> a situation that could have been handled without displaying your gun."

And what exactly is going to convince you that a situation could not have been handled by means other than the threat of lethal force? My guess would be that nothing will.

[Pavulon]

7. Never going to happen.

there is a right to carry and many people do with no problems.

[X_Digger]

8. Save us some time and cut to your inevitable post about how the 2nd is a collective right.

I mean, that's your ultimate point, right?

Let's just skip the 10 posts getting there.

[armueller2001]

15. Well

No one really "needs" a gun in public places until they need it. Then they REALLY need it. Nobody needs a fire extinguisher either... until their kitchen catches on fire.

Luckily for those who value their rights, nobody has to prove "need" to exercise their right to have effective self defense (in most states)

[spin]

18. So you are suggesting that it's a good idea to have a gun in a car ...

and leave it there while you go shopping?

One of the reasons I have a concealed weapons permit is so I can carry that firearm with me while I am shopping rather than leave it in a car where it might be stolen by a criminal who would misuse it.

Who really needs a gun in most public places? In Florida, you don't have to have a "need" to carry a firearm in public. You just have to pass all the requirements including a background check and meet a gun safety class requirement and the state will issue you a license. In some states you have to kiss some bureaucrat's ass to convince him that you have a "need" to carry. If you are not one of his friends, are not rich and important and so not have the right skin color, you often do not get the license.

But, of course, you still disagree. You implied in an earlier post that Floridians who carry firearms were somehow deficient. Unfortunately you picked on a state that has had a monthly summary report on concealed weapons for the last twenty three years. You can review this report for yourself at:http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html

In short from October 1, 1987 to November 30, 2010, Florida issued 1,885,875 concealed weapons permits and currently 773,016 are valid. Only 168 licenses have been revoked for a crime using a firearms after the license was issued.

As far as why a person might carry in public I will admit that while I have been carrying for many years, I never had a reason to draw my weapon. Also, I doubt that I ever will have to use my weapon and hope that I never do. Still, I have little talent for predicting the future having failed the class on how to use a crystal ball in school.

Here's an interesting little factoid for you to consider:

Nationally, only 1 in 220 people will be the victim of a reported violent crime in a year.
http://www.bookofodds.com/Relationships-Society/Crime-Punishment/Articles/A0317-Behind-the-Numbers-Crime-in-Vernon-CA

While that's not bad odds, would you go to a dentist if 1 out of every 220 patients ended up dead or in the hospital?

My daughter two years ago attracted the attentions of a stalker. She did all the right things by filing a restraining order and reporting each and every violation. He still stalked her with a passion. Fortunately she had here concealed weapons permit and carries. If he would have physically attacked her, she was prepared to shoot him.

Without that license she would have probably been a emotional wreck because everywhere she went, there he was. As it was, she viewed him as a considerable pain in the ass that required her to be fully alert every time she left the house.
Finally he pushed the limit once too often and had to spend five weekends in jail with a warning that the next time he violated the restraining order he might serve a year in prison. He appears to have learned his lesson.

You are totally free to not carry a firearm in public if you choose. I am licensed to carry and I plan to continue to do so despite your somewhat silly argument that I have absolutely no reason to.

[Hoyt]

19. Actually I'm suggesting that if you can't leave home without a gun, don't walk in malls with it.

Preferably, leave it at home -- but I know some of you just can't leave home without your gun. I don't think trying to keep your gun from being stolen is a rationale for folks carrying into public parks, church, bars, schools, Chuck E Cheeze.

[Pavulon]

25. Do you really need any right enumerated

free speech, right to due process. All make things more difficult for some. I carry when I feel the need and where the laws allow. Has no bearing on you.

[spin]

28. Are you saying that there is no danger while shopping at a mall?

Mall patrols working to prevent crime during shopping season
Updated: Wednesday, 24 Nov 2010, 12:35 PM EST

TAMPA - Tampa police are beginning their patrols of mall parking lots as the holiday shopping season starts.

Officers say criminals come out in force when shopping is at its peak, so shoppers are being forewarned to keep their cars locked and packages hidden.

Police are also hoping their increased patrols will send a message to potential thieves.

"We want the criminals to be on alert that if you have an intention of committing a crime in any of our mall areas this holiday season, we've got a special place for you and that's the Hillsborough County Jail," Tampa Police Chief Jane Castor said.

Uniformed officers will be on horseback, bikes and motorcycles as they patrol the Westshore and International Malls. Police say plainclothes officers will also be out in force, posing as shoppers in mall stores and parking lots.
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/local/hillsborough/mall-patrols-shopping-crime-112410

Mall crime: The numbers
May 18, 2008

The numbers
The South Florida Sun-Sentinel collected data on more than 22,000 crimes reported at 13 South Florida malls from 2003-2007.

The vast majority of crimes involved shoplifting and petty thefts inside malls and car thefts and break-ins in parking lots.

There were at least 508 violent crimes — mostly robberies, followed by aggravated assaults and batteries and a handful of sexual assaults and homicides. About half of those crimes involved loss prevention officers confronting thieves who turned violent, domestic disputes inside the mall or confrontations over parking spaces outside the mall. The other half were more serious attacks on shoppers or employees at the mall.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-0518mallnumbers,0,1383585.htmlstory

Police evaluating crime, violence at county mall
Wednesday, March 3, 2010

In response to a far-reaching e-mail about robberies and rising gang activity in and around the Waldorf mall, the sheriff's office on Tuesday released crime statistics for the shopping center.

Although gang members have been involved in crime at the mall, there is no evidence of what the message called a "turf war" at the St. Charles Towne Center and surrounding areas, said Diane Richardson, spokeswoman for the Charles County Sheriff's Office.

Richardson described such groups as consisting largely of teenagers who live in the same neighborhood. The crimes committed by group members are chiefly opportunistic rather than motivated by a gang affiliation, she said.

Overall, "the fact that they were in the gang is coincidental," Richardson said.

After the message circulated early last week, the sheriff's office started compiling statistics for events that occurred between Nov. 24 and Feb. 24 in the mall area. In that time period, police received about 25 calls reporting crimes committed against people, including assaults and robberies, Richardson said.
http://www.somdnews.com/stories/03032010/indytop173140_32245.shtml

[Hoyt]

30. I'm saying there is not enough danger that warrants folks carrying in public.

Yes, there is "fear" that some folks can't deal with, or there is the desire to be a cowboy. But packing ain't the answer if you can't walk into a local mall without paralyzing fear -- find another mall or shop on-line if that's the case.

[armueller2001]

31. "there is not enough danger that warrants folks carrying in public."

I'm extremely glad that you only get to make that choice for yourself, and not others.

Why is "preparation" always equated to "fear"? I don't have paralyzing fear of getting into a car accident with or without a seat belt, but I wear one to be prepared for an emergency. I'm not trembling in fear about my house catching on fire, but I have a smoke detector, fire extinguisher, and insurance just in case.

[Hoyt]

42. Again, if you want to be "prepared" --carry a defibrillator. You might actually need one of those.

[PavePusher]

55. And we come full circle back to your precognition again.

Do you care to address that, or to offer your services to ensure the safety of those you would disarm?

[57_TomCat]

61. I do not carry a gun "because" I need one.

I carry a gun "in case" I need one.

Thank god I do not need one daily or I might stop shopping in all of those public places.

[spin]

32. Why do you think that gun owners live in fear?

This appears to be a common fantasy among those who oppose concealed or open carry.

I don't own firearms because of fear. I own firearms and enjoy shooting as a hobby. I have enjoyed informal target shooting for over 40 years.

The fact that I decided to get a concealed weapons permit had nothing to do with fear. I was working the midnight shift and had a long twenty mile drive to work. I had carried a firearm in my car for years.

One of my co-workers suggested that I get a concealed weapons permit. He knew that I had a lead foot while driving and while I am a professional speeder (only one speeding ticket in a lifetime of driving) he reminded me that my luck might run out. He mentioned that a traffic stop might go smoother if I had the concealed carry permit when the officer who stopped me asked if I had a firearm in the car. I saw the wisdom in his statement and got one.

One day at the range, the range master asked me if I always carried my firearm with me. I replied, "Only occasionally."

He then proceeded to ream my ass. "You went though all the effort, time and money to get a concealed weapons permit. The State of Florida trusts you to carry a concealed weapon and they want you to. They feel it helps to reduce crime on the streets to have licensed people carrying concealed weapons and the statistics show they are correct. Now I don't want to pick up the Tampa Tribune some day and read that you got shot in a robbery and was unarmed at the time and I sure as hell don't want to hear you whine about how you might have stopped a violent attack if only you hadn't left your weapon at home. I know you can shoot accurately and from now on I expect you to carry that weapon everywhere you legally can!"

So I do.

[RSillsbee]

40. So how many people are you willing to sacrifice

before your threshold is met?

[Euromutt]

41. How do walk into a mall WITH "paralyzing fear"?

I'd have thought being paralyzed and walking were mutually exclusive. Maybe that contradiction is indicative of how coherent your argument is, and how well your claims match reality.

[Hoyt]

43. Apparently a gun tucked in some gun owners' waistbands heals it.

[spin]

45. Have your considered that your assertions of how those who carry concealed ...

live in constant fear may only be a defensive mechanism that you employ because of your own irrational fears?

[jazzhound]

48. Have you considered that the reason that public support

for gun "control" is in decline is because people are contrasting uneducated/emotion based/factose intolerant/fallacy infested views like yours with educated, reasoned, fact based arguments from the RKBA side?

[friendly_iconoclast]

56. You'll never need to take one while grocery shopping...oh, wait

You were saying?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x351400

oneshooter (1000+ posts) Thu Dec-16-10 09:09 AM
Original message
Man Shot, Killed Outside Grocery Store
CONYERS, Georgia – A would-be robber who was shot and killed by his intended victim outside a busy grocery store parking lot during an attempted robbery on Saturday night.
The shooting stemmed from an armed robbery attempt in which the Conyers man was attacked at knife point by two men....

[SteveM]

57. Many stereotypes/misconceptions you have, there...

"I'm saying there is not enough danger that warrants folks carrying in public."

Carrying in public (or any reasonable self-defense measure) is eminently personal, and based on an individual's need for self-protection. It is not social policy, up for grabs by anyone who has a different opinion. YOU are saying there is "not enough danger" -- for YOU to carry.

"Yes, there is 'fear' that some folks can't deal with..."

So, what's new? Most folks who have a reasonable fear take measures to ameliorate the danger. I carry BC powdered aspirin on hunting trips (I'm 62). I also keep a .357 beside my bed. I sleep 8 - 9 hours per night, knowing I have taken reasonable precautions, and not followed the advice of opinion-makers.

"...there is the desire to be a cowboy."

Don't know what you mean, here. There are very few cowboys around, I'm told. I saw some on Camp Wood, Texas a few years back.

"But packing ain't the answer if you can't walk into a local mall without paralyzing fear -- find another mall or shop on-line if that's the case."

If someone suffers from "paralyzing fear," then you may have a point. But the folks I know who carry concealed aren't the least bit "paralyzed by fear," be it in a mall or otherwise.

[SteveM]

58. A slur based on stereotyping an entire state? Cool. nt

[spin]

62. Only 168 concealed carry permits have been revoked in Florida in 23 years ...

for a crime committed after the license was issued.

In that time period Florida has issued 1,885,875 concealed weapons permits and 773,016 are currently valid.