Breyer going off the deep end?

[-..__...]

Breyer: Founding Fathers Would Have Allowed Restrictions on Guns

That being the case, and particularly since the Founding Fathers did not foresee how modern day would change individual behavior, government bodies can impose regulations on guns, Breyer concluded.

8<---- Snip

Since the Founding Fathers could not foresee the impact of modern day communications and technology, the only option is to take the values of the Founding Fathers and apply them to today's challenges.

Which only leads to the conclusion that Breyer would support a censored/government controlled ("Kill Switch"), Internet.

We're acting as judges. If we're going to decide everything on the basis of history -- by the way, what is the scope of the right to keep and bear arms? Machine guns? Torpedoes? Handguns?" he asked. "Are you a sportsman? Do you like to shoot pistols at targets? Well, get on the subway and go to Maryland. There is no problem, I don't think, for anyone who really wants to have a gun."

Ok, Stevie... whatever.

Take your meds and go back to bed.

:eyes:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/12/12/breyer-founding-fathers-allowed-restrictions-guns/

[aquart]

1. Fox News is your source? FOX?

[Hoopla Phil]

5. In his own words.

Still FOX but it is him.
http://gatewaypundit.rightnetwork.com/2010/12/justice-breyer-on-2nd-amendment-if-you-live-in-dc-like-shooting-guns-you-can-go-to-maryland-video/

[X_Digger]

6. Ahh, the genetic fallacy on full display.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy

[Callisto32]

46. This post has made me decide to issue a challange.

I want to see 5 arguments for gun control NOT containing a logical fallacy!

GO!

[Callisto32]

44. No, Steven Breyer is the source.

Fox merely reported it. Fox would cite BREYER as the source. You have to link back the chain, man.

[SteveM]

60. Would you prefer the NYT, which still references "battlefield assault rifles"...

being smuggled from the U.S. into Mexico.

A "battlefield assault rifle" is capable of FULL-AUTO fire, not just semi-auto which would make it inadequate for "battlefield" use. The NYT knows this, but unethically continues to use the Sugarmann model of deception in order to promote its propaganda. Bring the justice's remarks to the attention of WaPo and the NYT and see it they will publish them. I will then quote from those sources, if it makes you feel batter.

Get quotes from individuals; Fox, WikiLeaks, the Guardian, Mother Jones...

[Dogmudgeon]

2. Damned Libbrul Sciolist!

I bet he's a Muslin lover, too!

Well, Fox News will put us wise to his ways!

--d!

[SteveM]

61. No, just completely off the wall on the Second Amendment. All clear now? nt

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pacalo]

4. That's exactly what I was thinking.

[PavePusher]

7. How so? n/t

[DissedByBush]

8. "take the values of the Founding Fathers and apply them"

The Founding Fathers above all had a healthy distrust of a powerful government that could disarm the people.

Even our current state is a bit behind the curve.

Back then everybody was expected to personally own the weapons of the foot soldier.

Today most of those weapons are illegal for civilians to own.

We've already come very far down from their values.

[safeinOhio]

9. Good they were

misogynist, slave owning ass holes anyway.

[PavePusher]

14. Wow.

Some of the most forward thinking people of their time, yet you disparage them for not living up to current standards.

The very fact that they were the source of the freedom you have to judge them so arrogantly must be bitterly ironic, no?

[lawodevolution]

20. That sums up what you think of our way of government and our freedoms, no surprise you also promote

Gun control.

[safeinOhio]

35. Nice use of

Palinistic rhetoric.

[PavePusher]

37. Sometimes the glass slipper fits... n/t

[safeinOhio]

38. Ya think

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[SteveM]

62. And your rhetoric was...?

[Katya Mullethov]

10. You from Mexico ?

"Today most of those weapons are illegal for civilians to own. "


That's how it is there , not here .
Civies lol... you mean SUBJECTS !

[DissedByBush]

11. Of the weapons a modern soldier carries

We are allowed the knife, the pistol and most shotguns.

[RSillsbee]

12. you are also allowed

select fire weapons if you are willing to pay the fee.

Personally, I have no interest in autofire weapons but I have no problem w/ other people owning them

[safeinOhio]

13. I have a problem

with the Hutaree Militia, the klan and white supremacy groups stocking up on full autos. Apparently, that is only me.

[Katya Mullethov]

15. Oh Hell...... homegrown domestic terrorism , that changes everything

Kinda like 9-11 . You sure got me with that one . Where do I sign up ?

NOT .

The patron saint of school shooters had something to say about liberty , security , and those that deserve neither .

[safeinOhio]

16. At least you give it

some thought.

[one-eyed fat man]

17. Do you suppose they buy those machine guns?

Yep, I am sure they went first to their local sheriff and obtained his sign off. Then they submitted the completed Form 4 to the NFA Branch with their tax payment, two sets of finger prints and passport photos, patiently waiting while the ATF and FBI went through their checks and procedures.

Application for Tax Paid Transfer and Registration of Firearm (known colloquially as the ATF Form 4.)

...or maybe they know somebody who didn't flunk shop in high school and make their own?



With a $900 milling machine from Harbor Freight, the ability to read a micrometer and blueprints it is perfectly possible to go from a raw forging to a finished receiver in a basement workshop.



If you look closely at the picture, those who know will note that it is a semi-automatic lower receiver. Of course anyone skilled enough to get that far, could easily ensure the interior was dimensioned properly and precisely place one more .156" diameter hole to mount an auto sear.

"I don't have a problem believing with the Hutaree Militia, the klan and white supremacy groups have respect for the law and will quit stocking up on full autos. if we pass another law against it Apparently, that is only me."

"You may have never fucked a chicken, but you know how!"

[safeinOhio]

19. The poster I was

responding to wanted to change the law. I'm fine with the current restrictions on autos. The Hutaree were found with legal weapons, not autos. I'm not sure those type know how to do that.

[PavePusher]

22. Just because they seem to believe some really stupid things...

does not mean they are dumb savages unable to utilise technology.

Your blatently bigoted under-estimation of them is exactly what they want, and what will let them continue to exist.

[jazzhound]

42. I know I've quoted Kates ad nauseum here, but...........

I'm not sure those type know how to do that.

.............this is a pitch-perfect example of the phenomenon that he describes as "respectable bigotry".

Faux-progressivism and bigotry at it's most blatant and unembarrassed.

[one-eyed fat man]

27. You want to expand that statement?

"I'm not sure those type know how to do that."

No doubt you are a devoted student of General Elphinstone. You may as well go for the whole enchilada and claim, "Ragheads are camel-jockies unable to exploit technology."



Actually, in a perverse sense, there was a reason teaching a slave to read was a hanging offense in the ante-bellum South. Anyone who thinks his opponents lesser beings, unable to learn, adapt and overcome is often placed in a position to ruefully ponder his inane prejudice. Perhaps your coat of arms should include "non impediti ratione cogitationis?"

[Katya Mullethov]

28. Elphinstone was the Peter Principal Epitomized

You got me thinkin' , as I am sure was your intention . Victorio was just about the same age as Don Alejo .

http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/download/csipubs/gott.pdf

[Euromutt]

43. Most 19th century British generals were

The First Anglo-Afghan War, the Crimean War, the Anglo-Zulu War, the First Boer War, the Mahdist War, the Second Boer War... British military history of the 19th century is studded with disasters.

[one-eyed fat man]

48. They weren't so hot in the Great War either.

The same Field Marshall Horatio Herbert Kitchener, 1st Earl Kitchener, that had Breaker Morant executed during the Second Boer War managed to almost wipe out an entire generation of Australians and New Zealanders at Gallipoli. Ironically the evacuation was the greatest Allied success of the campaign. The bitterness of Australian experience is still evident.The Band Played Waltzing Matilda

General Sir Douglas Haig pretty much set the record! The opening day of the Battle of the Somme, 1 July 1916, saw the British Army suffer the worst one-day combat losses in its history, with nearly 60,000 casualties. Like Kitchener did the ANZACs, Haig did for the Dominion of Newfoundland getting almost all of them killed on that first day.

[Hoopla Phil]

31. "those type"???? Hummmmm, How telling. n/t

[safeinOhio]

33. My apologies

if I offended you.

[RSillsbee]

25. Never buy anything from Harbor Freight

that has moving parts

[lawodevolution]

18. "I have a problem"

Original Message
"I have a problem"
Posted by safeinOhio
"with the Hutaree Militia, the klan and white supremacy groups stocking up on full autos. Apparently, that is only me."

Because they will have those weapons with or without a law against them, It's good that the people they hate are allowed to own effective guns to defend themselves. Also because members of hate groups will not register their guns nor are they likely required to, gun registration systems would only work to further disarm the potential victims of these hate groups.

[safeinOhio]

23. Who is calling for disarming anyone

only keeping the current regs on autos. If those groups have full autos, I want a law that allows the feds to go after them, like it is now. You don't want any laws that would allow that? So, why didn't they have tons of full autos when they were busted? Might be because they are hard to get and possession and firing them would bring attention to them sooner than it did. If the law is working, why change it? The current laws on registration of automatic weapons is working. It is not "disarming" anyone including potential victims of these hate groups. The potential victims in this case was law enforcement and they legally have them and they are registered with the Feds.

[RSillsbee]

24. Why not make the behavior illegal instead of the tool? ( oh wait)

If NFA '34 and GCA '68 ceased to exist tomorrow I doubt very seriously it would have a measurable impact on any one besides the clowns that paid tens of thousands of dollars for their select fire weapons. I imagine they'd be pissed.

IMO any one who thinks full auto weapons are the bomb has never been straight leg infantry and had to hump the ammo. Again though, if you want one go for it

[Callisto32]

45. Fully automatic fire...

Good for 2 things (at least at the level of shoulder fired weapons, we aren't talking about a c-130 spectre/spooky here)

1. Suppressing fire

2. Turning money into noise

[RSillsbee]

47. Turning money into noise

There's a guy in Co. Springs named Mel Berstien (AKA Dragonman) that owns a couple of actual crew served .30 cal machineguns and he will rent them out to you for what ever the rental fee and range fees are plus a buck a round for ammo.

I'd say he's turning noise into money

[one-eyed fat man]

51. Better than a 401k

This is a Vickers. It was built in 1916 by Vickers, Sons & Maxim. The weapon had a reputation for great solidity and reliability. Ian V. Hogg, in Weapons & War Machines, describes an action that took place in August, 1916, during which the British Army's 100th Company of the Machine Gun Corps fired their ten Vickers guns continuously for twelve hours. They fired a million rounds between them, using 100 new barrels, without a single breakdown. "It was this absolute foolproof reliability which endeared the Vickers to every British soldier who ever fired one."

That gun was sold out of British Army service in 1968 in Hong Kong. It came complete with the "Gunner's Wallet", spare parts box, tripod serial numbered to the gun, 6 spare barrels, belt-filling machine and transport cases. The $200 tax paid to register the gun exceeded the cost of acquisition and shipping to the United States. Not a bad investment for a sergeant's pay.

It works as well today as it did 94 years ago. The Story of Maxim gun

[Callisto32]

52. But what are the people renting the guns doing?

[RSillsbee]

26. You're absolutely right

Restrict the full auto weapons but let them by all the diesel and ammonium nitrate fertilizer they want

[Hoopla Phil]

30. Speaking of the Hutaree. How's that trial going. My info is very dated

but the last I heard the Fed's case was falling apart.

[Katya Mullethov]

32. No evidence

Sent them home .

[safeinOhio]

34. Trail of Feb28

Militia members back in court on evidence dispute
Daily Telegram

Six of the nine people charged with conspiring to overthrow the U.S. government have returned to Detroit federal court to hear lawyers argue for a key hearing to challenge evidence.
Defense lawyer Todd Shanker and others want a judge to evaluate the government's proof of a conspiracy involving members of a southern Michigan militia called Hutaree.


The nine were charged last spring with conspiracy to commit rebellion against the U.S. and other crimes.


Shanker represents David Stone Jr. He says some people made offensive comments about law enforcement, but there was never a specific plan to attack anyone.


Shanker says the government has put its foot "on the neck of the First Amendment."


A judge didn't immediately rule. Trial is set for Feb. 28.

Normal motions for this type of thing. Have to wait for trial.

[SteveM]

63. "Apparently, that is only me." Well, you at least took owhership. nt

[DonP]

21. The Founding Fathers said: "Take the train to Maryland"

if you want to shoot pistols at targets? Who knew they had a schedule back then? Maybe Franklin printed it for them?

At least that was Breyer's interpretation of the Heller case. The 2nd amendment must only be for people that can afford the time and money to go shooting at a club in another state.

Easy to say for a guy with 24/7 armed guards, (including Dick Anthony Heller), to name one and probably a hell of a good security system in his home to say.

Otherwise, If you run a Bodega in a DC neighborhood, just hand it all over and hope they don't kill you or the family member running the register.

Time for Breyer to retire to a potato farm somewhere and write his memoirs.

[benEzra]

40. He's also disconnected from reality if he thought that pre-Heller,

any law-abiding citizen in DC could own a handgun and "take it on the train to Maryland" to go to the range.

[benEzra]

29. Well, he felt that the Founding Fathers wrote the Eminent Domain clause

to allow cities to seize and bulldoze your house in order to give the land to a corporation (for private, not public, use), so he does seem to have a slightly...authoritarian...view of the Founders, methinks.

[one-eyed fat man]

36. Hey, wait a minute!!!!!!!

The "conventional wisdom" blames Kelo on an activist right wing court! "Fat" Tony, "Uncle" Clarence sided with Justice O'Connor and Chief Justice Rehnquist on this one!

It was the alleged liberal and progressive members of the court that put "PAID" to this one!

On June 23, 2005, the Supreme Court, in a 5–4 decision, ruled in favor of the City of New London. Justice John Paul Stevens wrote the majority opinion, joined by Justices Anthony Kennedy, David Souter, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen Breyer.

The majority opinion rejected any "literal requirement that condemned property be put into use for the general public." Instead government is permitted to take private property from one individual or corporation and give it to another, if repossession would put the property to a use that would generate higher tax revenue on the tenuous notion that the "public benefit" of increased revenue was justification for the community to condemn the property of individuals.

As of yet, the land where Susette Kelo's home had once stood was an empty lot, and the promised 3,169 new jobs and $1.2 million a year in tax revenues have not materialized. The land was never deeded back to the original homeowners.

Sandra Day O'Connor wrote the majority decision eliminates, "any distinction between private and public use of property — and thereby effectively deletes the words 'for public use' from the Takings Clause of the Fifth Amendment."

Clarence Thomas argued that "something has gone seriously awry with this Court's interpretation of the Constitution." with the majority of replacing the Fifth Amendment's "Public Use" clause with a very different "public purpose" test.

Antonin Scalia pointed out a ruling in favor of the city would destroy "the distinction between private use and public use," asserting that a private use which provided merely incidental benefits to the state was "not enough to justify use of the condemnation power."

Sometimes it's not your 'enemies' you need to worry about.

[friendly_iconoclast]

39. Here's a question the defenders of Breyer will studiously avoid answering:

"Do you concur with the majority of the Supreme Court in Kelo v. City of New London?"

Some juicy tidbits from the dissent in that case:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=335098#335614

[Katya Mullethov]

41. The technical term for that sound you keep hearing is stridulations

The grating sound made by some insects caused by the rubbing together of chitinous body parts . Not to be confused with fapping in humans .

[one-eyed fat man]

49. You mean like this?

witty repartee

[Katya Mullethov]

50. I came for the repartee

But I stayed for the crazy .

[Hoyt]

53. Really enjoyed some of the comments from the link. Agree with Breyer and commenters.

I own guns and I have had a CCW licence. The class you have to take only teaches you the basics of handling a gun, it does not train anyone how to act under pressure. We pay police to be trained in that.

I know some people who are so stupid I would not let them watch my dog for a minute but the state saw no reason to deny them a CCW. It makes me feel much less secure knowing that there are random civilians walking around with loaded guns when I am out with my family.

The 2nd amendment gives us the right to "bear arms" (own guns), but it does not give us the right to take them everywhere and anywhere. There have to be reasonable limits. One persons rights end where someone else's begins. Walking down the street or going into a private building that allows it is one thing, but a public festival, especially a family event, is something else entirely. It has been a long standing legal precedent that communities can decide not to allow weapons in public places. This is really about a bunch of activists who want to change the law.

In my opinion the people pushing this are extremely selfish. Carrying their guns with them everywhere only makes them feel more secure. It makes most people around them feel less secure.

This isn't the wild west. We have police now a days. We don't need civilians carrying their guns around in arts festivals. Just because you can carry a concealed weapon doesn't mean you should carry one everywhere. This is a matter of common decency and being a civilized society.

If the city of Royal Oak allows people to carry loaded weapons I will not be going to the festival and all the people who feel as I do will probably also choose to avoid it. . . . . .

[friendly_iconoclast]

54. Well, the festival went on, nobody (to my knowledge) was shot, and....

...I frankly rather doubt anyone feels less secure about CCW carriers being around them as their guns are, well, concealed.


And if someone elses' feeling being hurt were the metric for civil rights, a lot of the stuff you like might end up being

restricted. I said it before and I'll say it again:

It's the Bill of Rights, not the Bill of Popular Ideas.

[Hoyt]

56. No one was shot because the odds are so low it makes no sense to pack in public.

But you know the odds are extremely low that you will ever need a gun at a festival or in most public areas. Heck a women and her purse proved a match for a shooter yesterday -- yet you guys feel you need to be armed to peek out the door.

[friendly_iconoclast]

59. At least you admit that no one was shot, even with the CCW people in attendance

The rest of your statement is the equivalent of saying that you don't need fire extinguishers or smoke alarms if you haven't had

a house fire.

[SteveM]

65. Hmm, maybe I should cancel my home insurance. Thanks. nt

[one-eyed fat man]

68. That's a real stretch............

She had the nerve to try. He was more annoyed than anything and called her a "stupid bitch."

It wasn't until well after he sent her scurrying back down the hallway he started shooting, so what did she accomplish? She didn't stop anything.

The armed security guy didn't even come to his senses long enough to take advantage of the diversion when the nutcase had his back to everyone.

I give her credit for bravery, but too bad it wasn't accompanied by a mission capable skill set.

Probably the most widely televised "assault purse" since Gladys Ormphby whacked Tyrone F. Horneigh in 1968!

[X_Digger]

55. Bear != Own.. that would be 'keep'

Let's look to Justice Ginsburg's own definition for 'bear'-

In Muscarello v. United States:

JUSTICE GINSBURG wrote that “{s}urely a most familiar meaning is, as the Constitution’s Second Amendment . . . indicate{s}: ‘wear, bear, or carry . . . upon the person or in the clothing or in a pocket, for the purpose . . . of being armed and ready for offensive or defensive action in a case of conflict with another person.’ ”

[jazzhound]

57. Could you clear something up for me?

Just because you can carry a concealed weapon doesn't mean you should carry one everywhere. This is a matter of common decency and being a civilized society.

What part of "concealed" is escaping you?

If other folks at the arts festival aren't even aware that you are carrying, how is it possible to offend their smug, uneducated sense of "decency"?

If the city of Royal Oak allows people to carry loaded weapons I will not be going to the festival and all the people who feel as I do will probably also choose to avoid it. . . . . .

Alright. And a good number of those who support the RKBA will go out of their way to attend. In the final analysis revenue trumps feelings. As in other areas of the gun "control" debate, I believe that a null effect will result w/regard to those who attend/don't attend the event on the basis of concealed carry.

Carrying their guns with them everywhere only makes them feel more secure. It makes most people around them feel less secure.

Psychology 101: Society is not responsible for your feelings. YOU are responsible for your feelings. So start acting responsibly and get some help for your irrational fear, which is made evident by your truth-aversive position on this matter.

[SteveM]

66. Oh, you would bring up prima facie logic. And I was having so much fun. nt

[one-eyed fat man]

58. You may be wasting your money!

"......not train anyone how to act under pressure. We pay police to be trained in that."

First, if you have never been in combat or experienced a real life and death struggle, with guns or otherwise there is no predictor, including yourself about yourself, that can reliably say what you will do.

The military practices drills with mind-numbing frequency to try and get to the point the individual soldier will just react before he realizes he is scared. Even with that training, studies have shown that a significant number of soldiers, regardless of need or cause, fail to fire their weapons in a fight.

Insofar as the police deter by their presence, they are very, very good. Criminals take great pains not to commit a crime in front of them. Unfortunately, the corollary is that you can pretty much bet your life (and you are) that they won't be there at the moment you actually need them.

"Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first." And unlike the police, the victim does not have to resolve the ambiguity of who is the bad guy.

Do you believe that you have no need to protect yourself because the police are better qualified to protect you, because they know what they are doing but you're a rank amateur? Put aside that this is equivalent to believing that only concert pianists may play the piano and only professional fire fighters may own a fire extinguisher. What exactly are these special qualities possessed only by the police and beyond the rest of us mere mortals?

Simply carrying a gun will not make you "armed" any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician. Being able to play at home, is no guarantee you won't freeze up on the stage. There are cops and soldiers who have frozen under fire and there have been cooks who were awarded the Medal of Honor because they did what had to be done when it needed doing the most!

A civilian who practices diligently or competes routinely in IPSC or IDPA matches is more likely to shoot effectively than the beat cops I remember from the Fifties. They were so Irish even their bullets were green! There were no recurring weapons qualification requirements from the department. The only time the ammunition came out of the belt loops was when they had to buy a bigger gunbelt so the brass turned green from verdigris.

Having a CCW and not carrying is like taking the batteries out of the smoke detector.

[Euromutt]

67. There's so much twaddle in that post I hardly know where to begin

Let's start with the obvious one:

If the city of Royal Oak allows people to carry loaded weapons I will not be going to the festival <...>

According to your profile, you live in Georgia. Royal Oak is in Michigan. It's pretty unlikely you're going to that festival one way or the other.

The 2nd amendment gives us the right to "bear arms" (own guns) <...>

No, the 2nd gives us, the people, the right to keep and bear arms; the "owning" part would be covered by the word "keep." Moreover, the constitutions of a large number of states are more explicit about the matter. Article 1, Section 6 of the Michigan state constitution reads:

Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.

It has been a long standing legal precedent that communities can decide not to allow weapons in public places.

It was standard practice for quite a long time that communities could decide not to allow blacks within the city limits after dark, the so-called "sundown towns." But such practices were, at long last, outlawed in the years after the Civil Rights Act of 1964 became law.

It makes me feel much less secure knowing that there are random civilians walking around with loaded guns when I am out with my family.

Ah, I see. You're happy to dismiss the concerns of people who carry firearms in public as entirely unreasonable, but when it comes to your own fears, we're all obliged to defer to you. Does it not occur to you that your fears (even if you couch them in euphemisms like "feeling less secure") might be at least unreasonable as you characterize those of others to be?

Yes, we have police nowadays, but as it happens, the Supreme Court has ruled on several occasions that government (including law enforcement) has no duty to protect individual citizens. If the cops fail to show up when you need them, you have no recourse whatsoever.

[SteveM]

64. One of the grossest errors by our "liberal justices," IMO. nt