Gun dealers often stay in business with new licenses after ATF shuts them down

[onehandle]

About a hundred times a year, regulators strip gun dealers of their licenses for violations of federal law, an extreme step taken only when repeated infractions are deemed a threat to public safety. But a year-long Washington Post investigation documented about 60 cases since 2003 in which the businesses stayed open, often re-licensed through relatives, employees, associates or newly formed companies.

"We'll just have to play musical licenses," the owner of the Highland Gun Barn in Michigan said when a federal inspector served him with a final notice to surrender his license.

A California sports shop had its license revoked after inspectors from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives said the 87-year-old owner's repeated violations of gun laws showed she was unable to run a gun business. Before she forfeited her license, the woman's son obtained a permit to sell guns at the same shop. He said he would be at the shop two days a week and that his mother would "exclusively direct all day-to-day business."

A Maryland gun store that ATF said lost track of weapons and failed to do background checks was forced to surrender its license after the owner lost a court battle. Six months later, ATF issued the dealer's wife a license at his old shop in Fallston, Md. A Georgia gun dealer had its license revoked after ATF said it could not account for hundreds of guns. The dealer's daughter and son-in-law secured their own license to keep the business going.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/13/AR2010121305890.html

[msongs]

1. NRA poster kids lol nt

[DonP]

4. What does this have to do with your favorite Bogeyman, the NRA?

I read the post twice and couldn't find any discussion of the role the NRA played in this issue?

Maybe you have special X-ray vision to find something that no one else can see. Or you're just enough of a fanatic to have a knee jerk reflex to any gun related story and try and fit it into your NRA + Evil meme.

But your posts on this subject have been a great source of humor for many of us - please keep it up. Since Ed Sullivan went off TV I've been hoping someone like you would come along and make us forget Senor Wences and the guy that spins plates.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

2. The key issue here is the lack of data about "techincal" violations

Clearly there are some bad actors but starting in the late 90s the BATF also got very heavy handed on technical violations (misspellings and abbreviations for example).

BATF is clearly somewhat capricious in their treatment of dealers. Some get checked every 10 years and some are being checked annually as seen in the article. Why can't they take an even handed approach and rational for a change?

[SteveM]

35. Your right. BATF rarely misses an opportunity to reem out gun violations...

especially over specious crap like machine gun definitions. I don't expect an "even handed" approach from either the BATF or the WaPo; I mean, the latter could have revealed the nature of the "violations," but as expected, it didn't.

[sharesunited]

3. It should be public policy to reduce to zero the number of storefronts selling guns and ammo.

[RSillsbee]

5. You meant the way public policy reduced the number of storefronts that sell cocaine

to zero?

How'd that work for you?

[sharesunited]

6. Yes exactly. Go to your local pharmacy and ask them at the dispensary counter to sell you some.

[Atypical Liberal]

8. Bet I could have some in 15 minutes.

I have never even seen an illegal drug my entire life. But I bet you I could buy some within 15 minutes. It's as readily available as if it were available at the local pharmacy. The only difference is the product isn't regulated, it isn't taxed, and the business people behind the product operate outside the law, having no recourse to settle business disputes within the law.

[wikileaksfan]

11. I bet you couldn't buy hard narcotics in 15 minutes

I bet you would get ripped off, beat up or arrested.

[RSillsbee]

13. I've bought hard narcotics in the john at my High School.

They were readily available at my College and at my last job I had the key to the narcotics cabinet. They really aren't that hard to come by

[Atypical Liberal]

18. I'm pretty sure...

I don't know what constitutes "hard", but I'm pretty sure I could get hooked up with cocaine by someone in this very building.

[Straw Man]

19. You'd lose that bet.

I bet you couldn't buy hard narcotics in 15 minutes

I bet you would get ripped off, beat up or arrested.

No offense, but you are very naive. The dealers don't like people hassling their customers. That's why your first two are unlikely. The last is more likely, but still statistically improbable.

Just go to the place where the cars all pull up to the curb and the guys on the corner come over. Get in line. Don't look or act like a cop. Have cash. It's really as easy as that.

[AtheistCrusader]

20. I bet you probably could get beat up if you...

asked if they accept VISA.

[wikileaksfan]

23. Really, I think you're naive

Fire up that baking soda!

[Straw Man]

25. So you deny that street drugs are easily obtainable?

Or are we just playing "am not, are too"?

[RSillsbee]

29. Of course street drugs aren't easily obtainable

They're banned ... Oh, wait

[wikileaksfan]

31. Go to one of these "stop and cop" places

It's all cars driving around with suburban and rural county plates cause they can't get hard drugs in their counties.

15 minutes is getting gas, to get hard drugs you either have to already have a relationship with a criminal or take time and dangerous risks.

[RSillsbee]

32. Really?

All I had to do was walk in the bathroom at school

[Straw Man]

33. Stop 'n' Cop

It's all cars driving around with suburban and rural county plates cause they can't get hard drugs in their counties.

Yes they can. They're just more expensive there.

[Callisto32]

45. COUNTY plates?

Where do you live, exactly, that they have county plates. Mine says "Pennsylvania"...

[Euromutt]

47. A number of state license plates list the county where they were issued

Georgia and Tennessee do, definitely. On the standard plate, there's a strip along the bottom that gives the name of the county. Florida and Mississippi used to have plates like that, but I don't know whether they're still issued. It seems to be something you find mainly in the South.

[Callisto32]

51. Thanks.

I have lived in the north-east all my life and have never seen such a thing. I was to Tennessee, but that was MANY years ago and I remember little of the trip.

[SteveM]

37. Do you support drug prohibition? nt

[cleanhippie]

30. You sir, are in denial.

[SteveM]

36. Uh, welcome to the real world...

"hard narcotics" are widely-available, often through the same person who sells the "soft stuff" (invariably ganja). The system for sale and distribution is deep, sophisticated and wide-spread, and supplies are way more than ample (I pay the same rates for pot that I paid 20 years ago).

If you want to make an impact on sound social policy, work to end the War on Drugs, and advocate a system of regulation of all drugs currently deemed illegal. You know, you might lessen some of the WOD violence and gun trafficking into Mexico.

By now, you are surely aware that the "battlefield assault rifles" the cartels use are full-auto, and not found in any appreciable quantity within the U.S. You have to obtain them from the corrupted Mexican armed forces, and from smugglers in Central America.

[X_Digger]

10. Who needs a store.. you can have it delivered.

Over 300 metric tons of cocaine enter the US each year.

[one-eyed fat man]

14. You are right.

You still can't find a whore on Craigslist, after all they have been banned.

[friendly_iconoclast]

17. Who needs to? There are plenty of undocumented pharmacists to provide your narcotic needs.

OTC heroin and cocaine have been banned for 96 years and counting- but still available.

So how long would it take your beloved gun ban to become effective?

[Katya Mullethov]

26. Cocaine Hydrochloride Topical Solution

On my desk , I have a methadone HCI bottle I found by my delivery door . I am quite sure they went to a drug store to get that , and that -I- PAID FOR IT !
http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=316124772090&id=f69c5adf98cb8c68b844b3b03c6d4bf3
So , if they actually sold the particular product you chose to anyone other than dentists and ophthalmologists , the request would be GIVE IT TO ME !!

[Callisto32]

44. That sound is the point going over your pointy head.

[MicaelS]

15. Only in the legend of your own mind. n/t

[Kennah]

34. Because it worked out so well with prohibition of alcohol

[AtheistCrusader]

7. I don't think it should be much of a stretch to find agreement here.

BATFE should sieze all stock upon forfeiture of license, with cause.

Hell, I love auctions, and I hate criminal scum that enable other criminal scum to obtain firearms. Who doesn't?


License revoked for criminal activity, with a conviction, lose your wares, lose your storefront, if owned too. Seems like an equitable solution.

[Atypical Liberal]

9. I agree.

>License revoked for criminal activity, with a conviction, lose your wares, lose
>your storefront, if owned too. Seems like an equitable solution.

I agree.

[one-eyed fat man]

12. For criminal activity, I agree................

So they revoked licenses? If the dealers breaking the law is what prompted the ATF to revoke the license why are they not in prison?

Maybe I am missing it, but if they are selling guns to prohibited persons, selling guns off the books, facilitating straw buyers, these are CRIMES and felonies at that! Why haven't they been hauled off in irons to stand in the dock before a Federal judge for violations of Title 18 US Code?

Are these revocations administrative actions penalizing a dealer for sloppy paperwork? Is the ATF too incompetent to make a criminal case against a rogue gun dealer so they pull his license?

Then they turn around and issue a new license to one of his associates or family members? You think they could at least make them run their criminal empire from prison?

....that is if there is criminal activity?

[PavePusher]

24. Yeah, but....

This is the gang that thinks a shoe-lace is a machine-gun, and that deliberately modifying a semi-auto (in their own lab) until it slam-fires means that the owner had an unregistered machine-gun before the mods.

They don't have a large stock of credibility right now.

[spin]

16. Obviously there is a loophole in the law that allows someone to "play musical licenses".

Rather than attempt to pass another useless "assault weapons" ban, perhaps Congress should rewrite this law to eliminate this loophole.

At the heart of the issue is the fact that the 1968 Gun Control Act treats each new license applicant as a unique entity - even if it is a similarly named company with the same employees. As long as the applicant is a different individual or business entity, ATF cannot consider violations incurred under a former licensee when weighing the new application. Embattled operations can be reborn with a clean slate at the same location trading under the same business name.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/13/AR2010121305890_2.html?sid=ST2010121305901

We can work to refine current laws to make them more effective and finance better proactive policing to crack down on illegal gun dealers and those who carry illegal guns. Such an approach to new gun control measures would be far more effective than any bans or schemes such as microstamping ammunition.

We have come a long way in reducing violent crime in our nation, but we can still reduce it further.


source: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/glance/cv2.cfm

[Euromutt]

21. Depends what you call a "loophole"

If by that you mean that the government can't penalize one person (be it a natural or legal person) for the transgressions of another, then yes. But I for one don't like the idea of setting a precedent that would allow the state to deny me a license on the grounds that a member of my family has been disqualified from getting such a license.

And frankly, I can imagine legitimate reasons why a new owner of any retail establishment would want to keep "a similarly named company with the same employees," namely to retain established customers. If one of my local gun shops were to change owners, I'd be much more likely to keep coming if the new owner retained the sales staff that I like, and didn't change too much about the place.

[spin]

22. I feel that the law could be crafted better to take in account ...

your legitimate concerns.

In many cases the person who obtains the new license may have no further problems with the ATF and all is well and good.
In a very few cases, the new license may just mean that the same behavior that got the first license revoked will continue.

You could possibly have a "three strikes and you're out" type of law.

Of course I realize that the ATF has a bad reputation and often targets gun stores unfairly. This too should be dealt with.

[PavePusher]

27. And the best way to do that would be...

to shut down the BATFE, roll it's legitimate criminal investigation services into the FBI where they would be much better run, and get rid of about 90% of all Federal gun laws.

[spin]

28. Sounds like a plan to me. (n/t)

[SteveM]

38. I agree, but BATF has slipped into a kind of prohibitionist culture...

similar to the one occupied by the DEA. And they are adding a NEW prohibition: tobacco. Prohibitionist politics are equal parts overwrought morality, corruption and incompetence -- and those bureaus involved with such are hard to get rid of.

In Texas, I would like to see the end to the Alcoholic Beverage Commission which regulates alcohol sales, with law enforcement carried out by already established LEOs. One inspection of a place in Austin where I go yielded only a tongue-in-cheek warning from the ABC officer. The offense? Advertising "Ice-cold Beer" on a hand-painted sign. It seems when the alcohol laws were passed, it was considered an unfair trade practice to advertise "ice-cold" or "refrigerated" beer when so many establishments were without such. The law is still on the books.

[wikileaksfan]

39. Let's legalize meth, crack, heroin, cocaine, etc

The law can't stop it! The EU seems to deal much better with guns and drugs.

[Euromutt]

40. Personally, I do favor across-the-board drug legalization

The problem I have with meth is in the manufacturing process, which (IIRC) produces about 6 units of chemical waste for every unit of meth created, not to mention hazards from toxic fumes, risk of explosion, etc. Stuff like crack and meth are the modern-day equivalent of bathtub gin: primarily dangerous because, due to their illicit status, they cannot be regulated.

Speaking as a Dutch citizen by birth (US citizen by naturalization), the operative word in the sentence "the seems to deal much better with guns and drugs" is "seems." Even the (in)famously liberal attitude the Netherlands has towards drug use in general and cannabis in particular is in fact utterly half-assed. Possession and retail sale of cannabis is decriminalized in the Netherlands (it's formally illegal but not enforced as a matter of policy), but production and import of cannabis is not. As a result, the "coffeeshops" can only acquire their supply from the criminal circuit, and the Netherlands still has a class of criminals involved in the illicit production and distribution of cannabis. And these guys resolve business disputes in the same way American drug dealers do: by killing each other. And is spite of the stringent gun laws in the Netherlands, the hitters have no difficulty getting hold of whatever they need, usually from associates in Bulgaria or the former Yugoslavia.

For example, in September 2008, a fairly small-time marijuana grower named Hans van Geenen was "liquidated" (as the Dutch news media like to call it) when the car he was traveling in was pursued over a distance of five miles along a highway near Nijmegen, and riddled with sub-machine gun fire from a pursuing vehicle. At least fifty rounds were fired, probably more.

That's an extreme example, because it involved an automatic weapon, but over the past two decades, firearms seem to have become a lot more common in criminal activity in the Netherlands than they used to be. And that seems to be mainly because there are more people willing to use them; not just people involved in the illicit drugs trade, but also petty criminals. It's just another example of how, when there's a criminal demand for firearms, some unscrupulous fucker will always be happy to supply that demand regardless of how stringent the law is.

[one-eyed fat man]

42. Court backs tourist ban for Dutch cannabis coffee shops

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12006356|BBC-"Court backs tourist ban for Dutch cannabis coffee shops"

The European Court of Justice has ruled that Dutch authorities can bar foreigners from cannabis-selling coffee shops.

The court said the city of Maastricht was within its rights when it passed a 2005 law stopping foreigners entering cafes that sell marijuana.

The law was aimed at curbing so-called drug tourists driving from Belgium and Germany to buy marijuana.

Correspondents say the government wants to extend the restrictions nationwide.

There are some 700 coffee shops in the Netherlands. The cultivation and sale of soft drugs through them is decriminalised but not legal.

The owner of a Maastricht coffee shop had challenged the 2005 law, arguing that the policy breached EU laws on free movement of goods and services.

However, Thursday's ruling said the restrictions still complied with EU law.

"That restriction is justified by the objective of combating drug tourism and the accompanying public nuisance," the court said.

It added that the governments of Belgium, Germany and France had linked drug tourism to public order problems in their own countries.

Cannabis use in the Netherlands is tolerated in small amounts, with possession and purchases limited to 5g (0.2oz) per adult, regardless of the consumer's nationality.

However, the Netherlands' centre-right coalition government plans to turn coffee shops into private members' clubs amid concerns about the threat drug tourism poses to the Dutch way of life.

The BBC's Geraldine Coughlan in The Hague says the ruling could spell the end of the country's 30-year-old soft drugs tourism trade.

The other "fly in the ointment" is that while possession is tolerated. The wholesale end of the supply chain is still in the hands of criminals. Criminals who still use extortion, intimidation and violence to expand their market share and bribery to corrupt the police and judges.

[one-eyed fat man]

43. You do have the option......

http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/295516/295516,1243558736,1/stock-photo-international-airport-departures-board-31080808.jpg

"Pays yer money, takes yer choice!"

The gun-free, dope-filled paradise of your dreams awaits you!

You CAN vote with your feet. My parents and I did when we left the Deutsche Demokratische Republik for the United States in 1954.

[Katya Mullethov]

41. They own the Google search term "Institutional Perjury"

Some people will gladly pay out the ass for results like that . Oh wait , we did .

[one-eyed fat man]

46. The ATF has a Prohibitionist culture for a reason.

The ATF started out as The Bureau of Prohibition was the federal law enforcement agency formed to enforce the National Prohibition Act of 1919, commonly known as the Volstead Act. When it was first established in 1920, it was a unit of the Bureau of Internal Revenue. On April 1, 1927, it became an independent entity within the Department of the Treasury.



Following the repeal of Prohibition in December 1933, it became the Alcohol Tax Unit of the IRS, ultimately evolving into the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF).

The Homeland Security Act of 2002 shifted ATF from the Department of the Treasury to the Department of Justice. The agency's name was changed to Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives. However, the agency is still referred to as the ATF for all purposes. After 90 years, not much has changed and with the nomination of Andy Traver to head the agency we are sure to see a re-invigoration of the Chicago way.


The Untouchables

[Euromutt]

48. The stupid thing is that the "TF" part doesn't apply any more

When the ATF was transferred to the Justice Dept., the elements of the Bureau responsible for enforcing taxes on alcohol and tobacco (the "revenooers," in other words) remained with the Treasury. So in spite of its name, the organization is really tasked exclusively with enforcing the National Firearms Act of 1934 and the Gun Control Act of 1968, making it in effect the Bureau of Firearms and Explosives.

[one-eyed fat man]

49. Dirty water.

Early in 1933, as part of the FDR-sponsored Omnibus Crime Bill, the Prohibition Bureau was briefly absorbed into the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Though part of the FBI on paper, J. Edgar Hoover, wanted to avoid liquor enforcement and, more importantly, the taint of corruption that was attached to it. As one wag put it, "If you mix dirty water into clean water, all you get is more dirty water!"

In practice, the ATF continued to operate it as a separate, autonomous agency. Following the repeal of Prohibition in December 1933, the ATF was transferred back to Treasury. The hard feelings and turf rivalry between the two agencies continues unabated.

[one-eyed fat man]

50. That actually happened for a few months.

Early in 1933, the Prohibition Bureau was briefly absorbed into the FBI.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=351070&mesg_id=351589