Residents held at gunpoint fatally shoot intruders.

[Atypical Liberal]

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=7871224

"Police say three suspects -- two men and a woman -- knocked on a door at the complex. When a female resident answered, one of the men grabbed the her, put a gun to her head and made demands.

Police say that's when a male resident inside the apartment heard the commotion, grabbed his pistol and began firing, hitting one of the men in the chest."

Just goes to show, even with the element of surprise on the assailants' side, you can still successfully resist.

[Ezlivin]

1. Damn, those Jehovah Witnesses are getting desperate!

[sharesunited]

2. Guns as solution to guns. Zero points awarded.

[one-eyed fat man]

3. yeah, we know...........

....resistance is futile

What kind of twisted notion of "civilized" behavior requires the innocent to accommodate a thief, an assassin, or a rapist and makes HIS life less stressful?

Why such vastly misplaced sympathy for some villainous blackguard who was thwarted by their erstwhile victim?

Why so much thinly-veiled enmity for those who successfully resist a criminal's vile predations?

[WingDinger]

5. If you were the womans mate, you would beg thew yahoo with the gun NOT to open fire.

[PavePusher]

28. Really? Just let the dog continue to mangle her arm? O.K., whatevah... n/t

[jazzhound]

29. No kidding!

It would have been really easy for that woman to bleed out with a pitbull ripping into her arm.

[Katya Mullethov]

30. Maybe you just had to know the woman

Some people deserve to be eaten alive by animals . Who are we to judge ?
I choose to remain flexible on the issue .

[jazzhound]

33. Thank you, Katya -- you have NO IDEA how much

I needed that!

:rofl:

[Katya Mullethov]

34. My ideas have ideas

You got no fucking idea !

[jazzhound]

35. Also brings to mind a comment made by a Southern gent

when asked why he thought the murder rate was so much higher in the south than in the rest of the country.

Paraphrasing his response: "Well.........I suppose it's because there's so many folks here that need killin'."

[spin]

4. True. I'm finally beginning to see your point ...

Honest people should never have a right to own a firearm to defend themselves from criminals armed with guns. And when they do they deserve absolutely no credit for doing so.

Honest people should either be heroes or victims. You have to be a hero to take on a person with a gun if you don't have one. Chances are that you will be a dead hero but that is better than being a live survivor who used a firearm. Being a victim is easy. You just allow the armed criminal to murder, rape or rob you. The most you do is get down on your knees and beg for his compassion while he laughs at you.

We should also disarm all police. Why should they be allowed to own firearms? You don't give them any points either when they use a firearm to stop a criminal with a firearm.

You're absolutely right. The only time points should be awarded is when an unarmed honest person or a cop is able to stop a armed criminal without using a firearm. No one should ever be awarded points for winning while using equal or superior force.

I probably should include the sarcasm thingy.

:sarcasm:

[DCKit]

6. "Honest people should either be (dead) heroes or victims." nt

[safeinOhio]

7. Honest people should be able

to buy and use guns.
My question is where did the bad guys get theirs. All such stories are useless without tracing the guns used in crimes. However they got them should be the focus of all gun control.

[wikileaksfan]

8. Guns are such a deterent they are one of the most stolen items

America's insane gun culture is one of the things degrading and destroying this nation. You don't see any other nations emulating our lax gun regulations.

[safeinOhio]

9. We have a very unique culture

and if you try to change it, you'll get shot at.

:sarcasm:

[friendly_iconoclast]

10. America's insane violence culture is one of the things degrading and destroying this nation. FTFY

As others have pointed out before, if every single gun in the US were to disappear and not be replaced, and every murder committed

with one somehow not commited via any other method, the US would still have a higher murder rate than most other G20

countries. And some countries with much stricter gun laws have horrific murder and/or violent crime rates (I'm looking at you,

Mexico and the UK.)



This is a people problem, not a gun problem- despite what prohibitionists may believe.

[one-eyed fat man]

12. You have choices...

[friendly_iconoclast]

13. Empirical evidence seems to disagree with you: "Crime continues to drop for first half of 2010"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=351980


Crime continues to drop for first half of 2010

http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2010/december/crime_122010/crime_122010

The early returns are encouraging. According to the Preliminary Semiannual Uniform Crime Report, January-June, 2010, the nation saw a 6.2 percent decrease in the number of reported violent crimes and a 2.8 percent decrease in the number of reported property crimes compared to data for the same time frame during 2009.

The report specifically covers the violent crimes of murder, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault…and the property crimes of burglary, larceny-theft, and motor vehicle theft. It also includes arson, which is considered a property crime but is tracked separately for this report....

Of course, if you wish to argue that the "gun culture", as you put it, is in and of itself a bad thing- you are free to do so.


We will also be free to point out several nice places with lots of guns and little violent crime- as well

as several not-so-nice places with few guns and lots of violent crime...

[spin]

20. That's because the governments in other countries do not trust citizens ...

In fact most governments fear giving citizens the freedom we Americans enjoy, often for good reason.

The two most important amendments in the Bill of Rights are the First and the Second in that order.

The First:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

The Second:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

For example if Mexico was as well armed as the United States, they would have overthrown their corrupt government years ago. Mexico has neither freedom of the press or the right to keep and bear arms as we understand and exercise those rights in the United States. Of course, a revolution might not have occurred if Mexican citizens had been well armed. The government might have decided to limit its corruption in order to survive.

Who knows. If we had laws similar to Mexico we might have a government just like Mexico, and many of us might live in abject poverty just like many Mexicans. Many of our citizens might be "undocumented workers" sneaking across the border to Canada to find work that Canadians refuse to do.

When you consider the quantity of firearms and the number of people who own them in our country, it's amazing how the violent crime rate involving these weapons is so low. That crime rate is also decreasing and has been for years. It began to decrease just as "shall issue" concealed carry, castle doctrine, "stand your ground" and "take your gun to work" laws swept across our nation like a tsunami.

Gun Owners Buy 14 Million Plus Guns In 2009 – More Than 21 of the Worlds Standing Armies
Wednesday, January 13th, 2010 at 11:43 AM

Washington, DC --(AmmoLand.com)- Data released by the FBI’s National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) for the year reported 14,033,824 NICS Checks for the year of 2009, a 10 percent increase in gun purchases from the 12,709,023 reported in 2008.

So far that is roughly 14,000,000+ guns bought last year!
The total is probably more as many NICS background checks cover the purchase of more than one gun at a time by individuals.

To put it in perspective that is more guns than the combined active armies of the top 21 countries in the world. countries by number of troops.
http://www.ammoland.com/2010/01/13/gun-owners-buy-14-million-plus-guns-in-2009/

[RSillsbee]

25. Can you cite that ?

Or are you just making it up as you go along?

[cleanhippie]

31. Can you provide any hard data, facts or evidence to back up your claim?

And can you be more specific about what you mean by "America's insane gun culture is one of the things degrading and destroying this nation"?

[Euromutt]

36. When the occupants aren't home, yes

A firearm with nobody to operate it doesn't form a deterrent, and you're certainly right in that firearms (particularly handguns) are one of the three most sought-after items in residential burglaries (along with cash and jewelry). But at the same time, criminologists take it as practically axiomatic that American burglars go to great lengths to ensure that the occupants of a residence aren't home before they break in; I recall reading that a typical residential burglary in the U.S. takes about two hours, of which 3/4 is spent casing the residence to make sure nobody's home. In various countries with "our lax gun regulations," such as Canada, the UK and the Netherlands, the percentage of residential burglaries which are "hot" (i.e. committed while the occupants are home) is between 40 and 50%. In the United States, it's under 15%.

All other things being equal, there are good reasons for a burglar to hit an occupied residence: wallets, handbags, briefcases etc. will be present and readily accessible; closets may be unlocked and alarm systems turned off. In a situation where the occupants are highly unlikely to have a firearm readily available, or to use it lest they incur the wrath of the criminal justice system, a burglar has good reason commit "hot" burglaries. The most obvious reason for the discrepancy between the U.S. and the other countries is that American burglars know that if they routinely break into occupied residences, they run a serious risk of getting shot.

Thus, the presence of a firearm in combination with someone to wield it most assuredly does form a deterrent.

And as spin rightly notes above, other countries aren't eager to emulate "our lax gun regulations" to a large extent because they don't, or didn't, trust their people. The majority of western European countries adopted gun control laws in the immediate wake of World War I, because their governments were scared of suffering the same fate as those of Russia and Germany, overthrown in 1917 and 1918, respectively, partly by means of disgruntled military personnel (of which most European countries had plenty at the time). Italy's law prohibiting private ownership of firearms in "military calibers" dates from 1931 (i.e. under Mussolini) and was intended to deprive leftists of weapons with they could stage an uprising and keep fed with ammunition captured from government forces.

Most people in these countries doesn't even remember why these laws were introduced in the first place (not least because at one government lied outright about the reasons).

[RSillsbee]

26. I would have thought the focus should be criminal control NT

[sharesunited]

11. The story was posted to illustrate how a gun saved the day.

But the story STARTS OUT with use of a gun to commit the crime.

I don't know whether this is irony or non sequitur or just plain old love blindness.

Pardon me for pointing out the obvious.

[friendly_iconoclast]

14. If all parties had been armed with other weapons, would you still have a problem?

Despite all your noise to the contrary, I've noticed that "dead by knife(club/fist/baseball bat/strangling/et cetera.)" is just as

dead as "dead by gunshot".

[sharesunited]

15. Degrees of dead isn't the point.

Convenience and efficiency is the point.

Those are the qualities of the weapon of choice which emboldened this crime.

To glorify a gun as the solution without condemning the gun as the problem in the first place reflects blatant pro-gun bias. As though more guns is somehow a sensible or beneficial public policy position.

(Not critiquing the reportage, just the motivation of the OP for posting it).

[PavePusher]

17. In other words, you are only concerned about the means...

and only one means at that.

The end is irrelevent to you. Interesting.

[sharesunited]

18. The particular means was chosen for a reason.

Without such means, the incident doesn't occur.

At least not as contained within the four corners of the published story.

[X_Digger]

21. Nice caveat there..

Of course you can say that about any story and be true. What tautological balderdash.

Shall I dig up more stories about crimes with knives, fists, feet, cars, baseball bats, tire irons, etc? (You know, the ones that outnumber those with guns..)

[Straw Man]

27. Without such means?

Without such means, the incident doesn't occur.

So... before guns were invented, there was no violent crime? And all violent crime nowadays is done with guns?

At least not as contained within the four corners of the published story.

Oh, I see. This gun crime would not have been a gun crime if a gun had not been involved. Hard to argue with that.

Your bizarre point system suggests that you believe that individuals should submit to violent assaults in the interest of some vague, ideological vision of a future America that is gun-free and violence-free. Is that what you truly believe? If not, please explain what you do believe, in concrete and specific terms.

[PavePusher]

16. So, if I used a knife to stop a knife crime...

would it be "irony or non sequitur or just plain old love blindness"?

Pardon me for pointing out the obvious.

[sharesunited]

19. Possibly. If you were posting the story to justify more knives in the hands of the public.

But knives take too much physical strength and skill to bother promoting.

Plus you get too much blood on yourself hand-to-hand up close like that.

[oneshooter]

23. Have you heard back from the Canadian and Mexican armys yet?

Have they agreed to helping you collect weapons in the US?
Let us know so we can have them on the curb for you.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[PavePusher]

32. Promotion...

http://www.kniferights.org/

[spin]

22. Exactly. A gun did "save the day" ...

The result might have been far more tragic had the husband not had a firearm to defend both himself and his wife from the intruders.

If you notice in the story other residents of the complex did not criticize the homeowner for his use of a firearm. None said, "Guns as solution to guns. Zero points awarded." They did say they are scared and looking for ways to protect themselves. "I have mace. That's all I have," said resident Keisha Curtis. "With a criminal, it would just upset them and make problems worse."

I agree, spray a criminal holding a loaded firearm with mace and there is a good chance he will shoot you.

Would you award points to the fool who brought mace to a gunfight?

You have mentioned in the past that what you want to do is to make firearms rare and unusual curiosities. I believe that you have also mentioned that we should stop the production and sale of new firearms as a solution to the problem. Unfortunately there are 300 million + firearms in our nation and they (unlike cars) don't wear out in 20 years. I own firearms that have been used on a regular basis for far longer than 20 years and they function as well as brand new firearms despite the thousands and thousands of rounds that have been fired through them. With reasonable care, they will be passed down to my grandchildren and will continue to function reliably for their lifetime and may well be passed down to their grandchildren. Ammunition will also last many many years if stored properly and not subjected to moisture or extreme temperatures. People still use ammunition made in WWII and even before. Some ammunition from this time frame used corrosive primers and while it still works, most shooters avoid using it. Often the collector value of such ammo prohibits its use, but it will still go "bang".

I personally would like to see a time where firearms are not commonly owned by the average person but are owned mainly by hunters, target shooters and collectors. To reach this point we need to address the problem of violence in our society so that situations such as the home invasion described in the OP are extremely rare. I grew up in the 50s and the 60s and that was the situation in most areas of the country in that time frame.

The violent crime rate has been decreasing dramatically for many years. The exact reasons for this decrease are uncertain but during this time period the number of firearms in civilian hands has increased dramatically. For example in 2009 at least 14 million firearms were sold in our nation. (source: http://www.ammoland.com/2010/01/13/gun-owners-buy-14-million-plus-guns-in-2009/) The statement that more guns = less crime may be debatable but there is no doubt that more guns does not = more crime. Crime continued to decrease in 2009 and also 2010 despite the large quantity of firearms that were purchased.


The violent crime rate of the United States, 1960 to 2005. (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States)

FBI: Violent and property crimes decreased in 2009

The number of violent crimes in the U.S.declined for the third consecutive year in 2009, according to statistics released Monday by the FBI. Property crimes also declined in 2009, the seventh consecutive year these offenses dropped below the previous year's total.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/theblotter/2012885544_fbi_declines_seen_in_violent_a.html

FBI: Early Data Shows Continued Decrease in 2010 Crime Rates
Monday, December 20, 2010 10:59 AM



Washington, DC - According to the FBI's Preliminary Semiannual Uniform Crime Report released today, the nation experienced a 6.2 percent decrease in the number of violent crimes and a 2.8 percent decline in the number of property crimes from January to June 2010, when compared with data from the same time period in the prior year.

The report is based on information from more than 12,000 law enforcement agencies that submitted three to six comparable months of data to the FBI during the first six months of both 2009 and 2010.
http://midsouthnewz.com/news/national-news/fbi-early-data-shows-continued-decrease-in-2010-crime-rates.html

We seem to be headed in the right direction and perhaps eventually the violent crime rate will decrease to the point that my dream that people who have a hobby involving gun ownership are the only people who feel the need to buy and own firearms will come true.

I believe that future gun control efforts should be focused on taking guns out of the hands of criminals rather than restricting or banning firearm ownership for honest and mentally stable people . We need to consider legalizing many drugs which would take the profit motive of drug smuggling. Many people die each year in turf wars between drug gangs. Our War on Drugs was lost many years ago.

We also need to improve our educational system and move toward providing good paying and rewarding jobs in our own nation rather than outsourcing them to foreign nations.

Your approach is impractical and would accomplish nothing, but I doubt if anything I say will convince you to change your mind. You appear to have a closed mind and an ability to resist logic. Many posters here have refuted your argument effectively. Still it is your opinion and a relatively unique one that may deserve preservation because it is original although seriously flawed in my opinion.

That's fine as I get to present real data and real solutions to those lurkers who visit the Gungeon. Perhaps I can convince a few hard core conservatives that not all liberal or progressive Democrats oppose RKBA and want to destroy the rights we enjoy because of the Second Amendment.

[lawodevolution]

24. Nigeria gets all the points for having a totally disarmed law abiding population