Still a Democrat
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Sun Jan-09-11 02:27 PM
Original message |
Did the Arizona shooter break any laws before he drew his weapon and fired? |
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Was the type of weapon, where and how he obtained and carried it, etc., all legal?
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aquart
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Sun Jan-09-11 02:30 PM
Response to Original message |
1. There have been statements it was legally obtained. |
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That makes it all right, of course.
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billh58
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Sun Jan-09-11 02:31 PM
Response to Original message |
MineralMan
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Sun Jan-09-11 02:31 PM
Response to Original message |
3. What does that matter, really? |
Tippy
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Sun Jan-09-11 02:32 PM
Response to Original message |
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Bought it from a gun shop in AZ..Anyone can carry in AZ the way I understand it
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ProgressiveProfessor
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Sun Jan-09-11 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #4 |
6. CCW paperwork is no longer required |
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If you are allowed to own a pistol, you can carry it concealed. Several other states are the same way.
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ProgressiveProfessor
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Sun Jan-09-11 02:34 PM
Response to Original message |
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Some here and elsewhere have tried to blame the gun laws in AZ, but it would have been no different in CA or NY with the exception of the magazine capacity.
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Still a Democrat
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Sun Jan-09-11 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #5 |
8. Wasn't the magazine capacity important? |
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It seems it allowed him to do more damage before being stopped.
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ProgressiveProfessor
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Sun Jan-09-11 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #8 |
11. Its also a PITA to change due to its length |
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At the AM press conference I heard he did not continue shooting due to a spring failure. Another weak spot in the really high capacity magazines.
A properly trained individual can get off a lot of rounds in a short time with the standard magazines.
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TheWraith
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Sun Jan-09-11 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #8 |
18. Not really. If he'd used standard mags, he'd have had to take a second or two to reload. |
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That's it. If they'd had a 10 round limit like CA and NY do, make that maybe 3-4 seconds. He didn't attempt to flee because he ran out of ammo, he just tried to get away--that's what allowed him to be tackled.
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Endangered Specie
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Sun Jan-09-11 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #18 |
24. He also could have easily bought 2 or 3 guns and performed "new york" reloads. |
TheWraith
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Sun Jan-09-11 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #24 |
27. Or just use one gun. That's what the Virginia Tech shooter did. |
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He had one main gun with a standard capacity mag, and a backup gun, and reloaded several times. Nobody tackled him, and it didn't stop him from killing tons of people.
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jeepnstein
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Mon Jan-10-11 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #27 |
36. The Va Tech shooter... |
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was also mentally ill but this didn't show up in a NICS check. Hmm... Do we see a pattern here? Nah, it's easier to collectively punish lawful citizens who are more likely going to hit the lottery than shoot their Congressional Representative.
Hysteria as public policy leaves much to be desired.
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GreenStormCloud
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Mon Jan-10-11 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #18 |
34. ONE second for a reload, less if you practice. N/T |
SteveM
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Mon Jan-10-11 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #8 |
37. No long mag? Just take several smaller ones. nt |
ZombieHorde
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Sun Jan-09-11 02:37 PM
Response to Original message |
7. I believe conspiring to commit a serious crime is a crime. nt |
JustFiveMoreMinutes
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Sun Jan-09-11 02:41 PM
Response to Original message |
9. None at all, isn't he a good guy to do all that? |
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... altho premeditation is presumed for any later charges.
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Bold Lib
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Sun Jan-09-11 02:57 PM
Response to Original message |
10. IIRC he was arrested twice before. Don't know if he was ever convicted though. |
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Edited on Sun Jan-09-11 02:58 PM by Bold Lib
He was also kicked out of college for frequent outbursts during classes. He had many previous signs that his mental health was not well.
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Hoyt
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Sun Jan-09-11 06:21 PM
Response to Original message |
12. Illegal -- apparently not, the gun lobby considers him an upstanding citizen. Immoral? -- well . . |
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It depends upon whether you believe people should be allowed to tote in any public place. I don't. Nor do I think these tricked out guns --and modifications -- should be lawful. People don't buy this stuff because of the mugger behind a tree.
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ManiacJoe
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Sun Jan-09-11 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #12 |
14. There was no tricked-out/modified gun. |
Hoyt
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Sun Jan-09-11 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #14 |
19. To you two-- He had a gun set up to kill more than the mugger behind the tree. |
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At that point, it is no longer for protection as the gun toting lobby likes to claim. Fact is, most toters aren't really worried about the mugger behind the tree -- thus, they have to have maximum load magazines and often some kind of killer load. Yea, I know -- I may not be describing things the way those who obsess over guns would, but the point is still the same.
Let's get back to what the Constitution truly said -- folks in a regulated militia can keep a muzzle loader at home.
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Atypical Liberal
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Sun Jan-09-11 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #19 |
20. and you can keep a printing press at home. n/t |
ManiacJoe
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Sun Jan-09-11 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #19 |
21. There was no special setup. |
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Are you not reading the linked reports/articles?
I will give you credit for admitting your ignorance of a technical topic. The question is, are you willing to educate yourself so that you can be an knowledgeable participant in the conversation?
PS. Your copy of the Constitution is defective.
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Name removed
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Sun Jan-09-11 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #21 |
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Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
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pipoman
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Sun Jan-09-11 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #19 |
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and hyperbole. Not a single true statement in this post, as is often the case with the losing side of this issue....hmmm, I wonder if there is a connection there,,
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TheWraith
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Mon Jan-10-11 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #19 |
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"maximum load magazines"
Or as they're known in the rest of the world, normal capacity magazines.
"and often some kind of killer load."
And that would be WHAT? Some kind of special bullet that kills people double extra dead? Do you think that there are somehow different bullets for someone trying to carjack you, as opposed to those used by someone intent on committing murder? Can you define the difference? And if you can't, why not simply admit that you don't have the technical knowledge to comment? You love to claim that we're trying to trip you up on technicalities, but that's like saying that the difference between my Saturn and a Ferrari is a "technicality" because they both have a manual transmission. Having strong opinions on things you clearly don't understand is how we get creation science and global warming denial.
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Hoyt
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Mon Jan-10-11 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #28 |
30. What's to understand -- other than why some people still think they need a gun in public. |
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Edited on Mon Jan-10-11 12:22 AM by Hoyt
That is difficult to understand.
The technical aspects of a gun are pretty simple. It's the moral aspects that some folks stumble over.
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TheWraith
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Mon Jan-10-11 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #30 |
31. So do you think that cops shouldn't be armed? |
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And if cops are entitled to be armed because they might come in contact with criminals, how do you justify making sure that ordinary people don't have the option to defend themselves?
Not to mention, you're trying to change the subject away from the fact that you don't know the first thing about weapons, yet you're pretending to have expert knowledge that this or that thing indicates someone just wants to commit murder.
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SteveM
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Mon Jan-10-11 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #19 |
38. More problems with your statements... |
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"Let's get back to what the Constitution truly said -- folks in a regulated militia can keep a muzzle loader at home."
Sorry, but I can't find "...folks in a regulated militia can keep a muzzle loader at home." Can you point this out? (Are you using a wooden printing press at this moment? I'll wait while you ink up.)
"Fact is, most toters aren't really worried about the mugger behind the tree -- thus, they have to have maximum load magazines and often some kind of killer load." Can you verify your "fact?" How many is "most?" Do you know how many carry "maximum load magazines?" What are "maximum load" magazines? "...some kind of killer load." What about standard anti-personnel/self-defense loads makes them so objectionable if the purpose is to stop a violent attacker? Most folks aren't interested in using rat shot.
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ProgressiveProfessor
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Sun Jan-09-11 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #12 |
15. To which "Tricked out guns modificiations" do you refer? |
aikoaiko
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Sun Jan-09-11 06:23 PM
Response to Original message |
13. Its too early to know. |
Unstoppable Madman
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Sun Jan-09-11 07:04 PM
Response to Original message |
16. He was an unlawful user of drugs |
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and lied about it, he knowingly bought the gun illegally.
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RegieRocker
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Sun Jan-09-11 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #16 |
17. That is only illegal drugs right? Legal drugs are ok? |
Endangered Specie
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Sun Jan-09-11 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #17 |
25. I belive abuse of legal drugs is also covered: |
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"Anyone who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance"
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TheWraith
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Mon Jan-10-11 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #25 |
29. For clarity, "controlled substance" does technically include alcohol. |
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Nicotine too, but I'm not aware of anyone ever being turned down on account of being addicted to cigarettes.
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Endangered Specie
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Mon Jan-10-11 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #29 |
40. Is tobacco a controlled substance though? |
X_Digger
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Mon Jan-10-11 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #40 |
41. Now under FDA purview, I believe. n/t |
LAGC
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Sun Jan-09-11 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #16 |
23. Mere drug convictions don't prohibit you from buying a gun in most cases. |
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Especially misdemeanor pot-related convictions.
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kudzu22
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Mon Jan-10-11 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #23 |
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Edited on Mon Jan-10-11 01:25 PM by kudzu22
From ATF form 4473, question 11:
e. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?
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SteveM
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Mon Jan-10-11 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #35 |
39. Prohibitions attract more prohibitions. nt |
safeinOhio
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Mon Jan-10-11 04:32 AM
Response to Reply #16 |
32. self enforcement never works. |
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Edited on Mon Jan-10-11 04:33 AM by safeinOhio
how many drive 55 in a 55 zone unless they see a cop car?
edited to say, "other than me"
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old mark
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Mon Jan-10-11 08:43 AM
Response to Original message |
33. He probably was legal. He had no convictions or arrests for violent crimes, |
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although he had evidently threatened others in the past, and he never felt the need for treatment for his mental and emotional problems. A drug misdemeanor is not enough. If he had been arrested for terroristic threats, he probably would have been denied the right to own a firearm through the background check, but evidently he was never arrested other than for a drug arrest.
You can not arrest people or violate people's rights because of what you think they might do in the future...
mark
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Euromutt
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Mon Jan-10-11 08:48 PM
Response to Original message |
42. If he did, would it have made a difference? |
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The question presumes that, if only the possession or carrying of the firearm had been illegal, it would have been possible to intervene before the perpetrator started shooting. But the fact is that history is littered with examples of assassins who both possessed and carried the murder weapons illegally, but weren't detected; thus, the fact that they were committing multiple offenses prior to opening fire made absolutely no difference to the outcome.
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