"The NRA had a great night ..."

[Statistical]

The NRA had a great night. They beat both Speaker Tom Floey and Jack Brooks, two of the ablest members of Congress, who had warned me this would happen. Foley was the first Speaker to be defeated in more than a century. Jack Grooks has supported the NRA for years and had led the fight against the assault weapons ban in the House, but as chairman of the Judiciary Committe he had voted for the overall crime bill even after the ban was put into it. The NRA was an unforgiving master; one strike and you're out. The gun lobby claimed to have defeated nineteen out of the twenty-four members on its list. They did at least that much damage and could rightfuly claim to have made Gingrich the House Speaker.

Bill Clinton in his book "My Life" reflecting on the 1996 elections and the price of the failed 1994 AWB.

http://books.google.com/books?id=PVmJqiW4mpMC&lpg=PA215&ots=iHOIJe8KpJ&dq=The%20N.R.A.%20could%20rightly%20claim%20to%20have%20made%20Gingrich%20the%20House%20speaker&pg=PA215#v=onepage&q=The%20N.R.A.%20could%20rightly%20claim%20to%20have%20made%20Gingrich%20the%20House%20speaker&f=false

The Republicans took control of Congress in 1996 and Democrats didn't regain control for a decade. A decade of right wing legislation and after 2000 it was rubber stamped by Bush. How much did that cost America in terms of lives lost, money wasted, treasure stolen. How many lives destroyed when jobs were cut, pensions slashed, and medical care became a thing for the rich.

Some want to do it again. Gun control doesn't work unless the goal is to enable Republican takeover of the government.


A super majority of Americans agree with the Supreme Court on the meaning of 2nd amendment.


Hell a super majority of NON GUN OWNERS agree with SCOTUS


A tiny minority support banning weapons


Support for increased gun control is at a two decade low and a toxic wedge issue that helps Republicans. Hell it may be the only wedge issue anymore that is a net positive for them.

[msongs]

1. electing a black president was the greatest thing ever happened to gun industry nt

[Glassunion]

8. WTF does that mean?

[spin]

21. Firearm sales skyrocketed and ammo disappeared from the shelves ...

Some people say it's because the first black president was elected but more likely the election of a liberal president and both houses of congress having a Democratic majority fueled the increase in sales. Add that to the fear of draconian gun control promoted by the Republican party and right wing commentators.

Gun sales surge after Obama's election
November 11, 2008

Bernie Conatser has never seen business this good.

The owner of a gun shop in the Washington suburb of Manassas, Virginia, Conatser said sales have doubled or tripled since this time last year.

***snip***

Weapons dealers in much of the United States are reporting sharply higher sales since Barack Obama won the presidency a week ago.

Buyers and sellers attribute the surge to worries that Obama and a Democratic-controlled Congress will move to restrict firearm ownership, despite the insistence of campaign aides that the president-elect supports gun rights and considers the issue a low priority.

According to FBI figures for the week of November 3 to 9, the bureau received more than 374,000 requests for background checks on gun purchasers -- a nearly 49 percent increase over the same period in 2007. Conatser said his store, Virginia Arms Company, has run out of some models -- such as the AR-15 rifle, the civilian version of the military's M-16 -- and is running low on others.

Such assault weapons are among the firearms that gun dealers and customers say they fear Obama will hit with new restrictions, or even take off the market.
http://articles.cnn.com/2008-11-11/justice/obama.gun.sales_1_gun-shop-brady-campaign-gun-owner?_s=PM:CRIME

And the increase in sales continued:

Over One Million Guns Added to US Homes In December 2010
Monday, January 10th, 2011 at 7:42 PM



NEWTOWN, Conn --(Ammoland.com)- The FBI has released its National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) figures for December 2010. NSSF-adjusted figures (1,133,371) show a 9.9 percent increase over NSSF-adjusted figures from December 2009 (1,031,344).

For calendar year 2010, the NSSF-adjusted NICS figure of 9,436,182 is a decrease of 1 percent over the NSSF-adjusted figure of 9,534,131 in calendar year 2009.

In comparison, the unadjusted NICS figure of 14,320,489 for calendar year 2010 is an increase 2.4 percent over the unadjusted NICS figure of 13,984,953 in calendar year 2009.
http://www.ammoland.com/tag/national-instant-criminal-background-check-system/

[RSillsbee]

32. I think you'll find

All this talk of a ban will be even better for it

[OHdem10]

2. Was it La Pierre(NRA Pres) (sp?) who said--"They who have

guns hold the Power?"""

[hlthe2b]

3. You leave out that a majority in repeated polls support control of assault rifles

Why is it when gun control comes up, that there is always a tendency to suggest the majority oppose ANY gun control. That is simply not the case?.

[TheWraith]

4. Which drops like a rock once people know they're NOT machine guns.

The entire "assault weapons" fraud is based on people believing that the "ban" is on fully automatic weapons, not conventional semi-autos. Even smart DUers fall for that same mistaken belief.

[Statistical]

5. I didn't suggest that. However lets look at those polls.

I see support falling from 67% in 2007 to 49% in late 2009.

Also for many people who favor it the issue isn't a high priority issue "Yeah sure, assault sounds bad, ban them". For those who oppose it, this is the issue (single issue voter) they will get out and vote, fund-raise, and drop serious cash to see it defeated. Lastly I would point out that "assault weapons" are a fraud. They are used in less than 1% of all crimes, no more dangerous than any other class of weapons, are not automatic and the name was chosen specifically to sound like "Assault weapons" which are automatic military grade hardware (new purchases banned since 1934).

49% is hardly something to hang your hat on, especially such a toxic and polarizing issue. Of course some on DU are advocating everything from banning all guns, to making them prohibitively expensive, to making it almost impossible to obtain ammo, confisacating all magazines >10 rnds, etc. Hardly what one would call "middle of the road" gun control.

[KansasVoter]

Lol....what would you call middle of the road?

[Statistical]

10. Maybe....

* Expand the types of mental health records which can be included in NICS.
* Allow lesser mental health records to result in a temporary block.
* Open up NICS via a private and secure system to allow validation of person to person transactions (must be done in a way that protects identities).
* Make reporting dangerous persons to more classes of authority figures (doctors, nurses, teachers, police, etc).
* Increase penalties for career criminals.
* Make gun charges carry mandatory sentencing and prosecution guidelines (90%+ of gun possession offenses are never sentenced).

[KansasVoter]

6. I agree the country loves guns!

[Statistical]

7. The country loves its Constitutionally protected rights!

[KansasVoter]

9. Bullshit.....

I have never met a ccw person who gave a shit about the 2nd! It is a macho kick ass thing! The 2nd is just the way they get there! Nice try though!

[Statistical]

11. Well you met me, I have a CCW and I care about the 2nd.

[provis99]

14. if there was no 2nd Amendment, you'd still love your CCW, wouldn`t you

[Statistical]

17. I don't "love" my CCW. It is a tool to keep myself and my family safe.

I don't "love" it any more than a seatbelt, fire extinguisher, smoke detector, or buglar alarm.

[KansasVoter]

23. Lol......did the NRA feed you that line?

[Statistical]

25. You asked an honest question I gave you an honest answer.

I don't have time for your games. Bye.

[KansasVoter]

27. Quit easy huh?

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RSillsbee]

33. if there was no 2nd Amendment,

I'd still have an inalienable right to self defense. SCOTUS has held that the right to keep and bear arms predates the Constitution.

IOW my right to own and carry a firearm is in no way dependent on the second amendment

[KansasVoter]

26. I ever met you!

[aikoaiko]

13. What about at that CCW class you took?

:shrug:

[X_Digger]

16. And the people with ccw you know are representative of what, exactly?

Ahh, the BEIKVFMG principle- "But Everyone I Know Voted For McGovern!"

[DonP]

18. Well, maybe you'll meet some in your imaginary CCW class soon

I thought you said you didn't know any CCW people and were going to take a CCW class to see what they were really like. A class that has conveniently postponed now for 6 months. Now you're going on about all the CCW people you've met. Is it hard to keep your stories straight?

Just like your mail fraud version of NRA membership that was yours, then your daughters, then your again.

Yeah, we all believe everything you say and give oyur opinions all the weight they deserve.

You might be a lot more comfortable in GD where people don't have any memories of the "stories" you've posted before.

[KansasVoter]

24. This forum showed me all I need to know!

[spin]

28. I somehow believe that you know very few people with a CCW ...

Most if not all of the people that I know who have a carry permit are very familiar the the Second Amendment and strongly support it. Also I have met very few people with a carry permit who are macho thugs. The majority were professional people in their thirties and above. A large number were retired or approaching retirement.

To be fair you may live in an area that differs significantly from Florida. Or it may be sheer coincidence that you know people who are macho thugs with carry permits.

I suggest that you take that course that you promised you would and report back honestly.

I am taking a CCW class........

Since finding this forum I have decided to take a CCW class to see the type of people who attend these classes.
Are they macho, tough guy types like most my friends who have their CC or are they just scared home owners or people who feel the need to have a gun available? I need to actually attend a class to find out.

I have convinced a Kansas certified trainer to let me attend a class for free as I am doing research on CC licenses. He said I could attend a normal class for free. I told him about my NRA research and my crime statistics research. He thought it was interesting. He did not know that the USA had more people locked up per capita than any other country. So I get a free class!!! I am taking it in September.

Does anyone know if I need to actually apply for a license before taking the class? Or can I just take the class and never apply for a license?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=333245&mesg_id=333245

It may well be that you attract friends who happen to be macho tough guys and they all got together and decided to run out and get carry permits. At the job I had before I retired, a good number of my co-workers had carry permits. After the first guy got his he convinced others, including me, to get one.

[PavePusher]

30. Utter bullshit. Cite to evidence?

Or are you merely projecting out your ass?

[benEzra]

35. You've met me, too.

And you also know the gun I carry with that license is a woman's gun. Is that the picture of a "macho kick ass thing" to you?

[KansasVoter]

37. No, an insecurity thing. But that is ok.

[benEzra]

38. Believe it if you want, and I fully respect your own choices re: guns.

I just happen to choose differently from you. Have a nice day. :hi:

[safeinOhio]

12. If you look at common sense gun laws,

like background checks on private sales of handguns, you get a clear majority in favor of those restrictions. Even from gun owners.


http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1006326

Drawbacks with respect to expense and inconvenience notwithstanding, 83% of self-reported gun owners and 87% of the general population endorsed regulation for all private-party gun sales in a 2008 poll that was conducted for the advocacy organization Mayors Against Illegal Guns. Gun owners gave stronger support to this all-inclusive approach than to a gun-show-only proposal in a 2009 poll conducted for the same organization. Either proposal would face tough sledding on Capitol Hill. It would therefore seem preferable to move forward with the version that is most likely to reduce the rates of firearm-related violence.
This article (10.1056/NEJMp1006326) was published on June 30, 2010, at NEJM.org.

[Statistical]

15. Who is proposing common sense gun laws. McCarthy wants a revised AWB 2.0.

The same tired extreme and worthless gun control junk she has been peddling for over a decade now. She dusted it off for VT and now she is trying again.

I would support a background check system for person to person transactions under the condition that it preserves the anonymousness of the persons, and provides a level of verification (if I check the system and it gives me a "good" code then any liability ends there). There are some other common sense gun control laws I would support. The sad reality is we aren't seeing any common sense gun control laws being pushed.

The extreme elements of the party take the most extreme law they can think of and then try to pass it off as "common sense".

[safeinOhio]

20. There are extreme elements on the other side also.

They want to end all background checks and restrictions on full autos.

It might be better to just ignore the extremes on both sides as they are going no where.

[Statistical]

22. I haven't seen anyone propose a bill to end all background checks or all restrictions on autos.

Sure there are people who want virtually anything but none of that is taken serious at the Congressional level.

I have however seen bills to reinstate the AWB, add taxes & fees to firearms (to make them prohibitively expensive), classify centerfire ammo as sniper rounds, ban standard capacity magazines, and more.

If I saw some common sense gun control I might be interested however I haven't seen anything in the last 10 years which comes close to common sense. It is the same tired defeated memes that just come back every single year. They are defeated as expected but the process rallies votes and money to the Republicans. I find it tiring and insulting. I mean if AWB 2.0 sucked the first 27 times it was brought up it isn't going to stop sucking the 28th time.

[YllwFvr]

40. id like to see

virtually all the restrictions disappear, but I know it would never happen so Ive never pushed for it. Like you two said, looking at it realistically the extremes from both ends wont happen. I would consider REAL common sense control that wasnt feel good do-nothing legislation. I dont see that come up however.

[PavePusher]

31. Who wants to end background checks? Cite to evidence?

As for full-auto's, count me in. The ban is stupid and unConstitutional.

[safeinOhio]

34. You prove my case, along with others

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=352297&mesg_id=

Legal full autos would sure have helped in the latest event.

As for extreme groups wishing to end backgrounds checks, look at Gun Owners of America, a right wing, unabashed Republican group that supports Sharon Angel and her Second Amendment solutions.


http://gunowners.org/op0338.htm

Already, that has been a problem for gun owners seeking the government's permission to exercise their right to get a gun. There is lot's of bad information in the government's criminal database that unfairly accuses gun owners of having a criminal record.
Of course, a potential gun buyer could be dead following an erroneous denial because she could not get her name cleared in time to defend herself from a stalker.
And all of this expense and aggravation for a system that is no more effective than the Canadian gun registry in solving crimes or preventing them. Every time you hear a statistic about how many people were supposedly kept from getting a gun by the instant background check, remember that criminals get all the guns they want in England, which has imposed a near-total gun ban on the island nation.

Rather than do background checks on citizens, including reporters, would it not be more in keeping with the spirit of our Constitution to do criminal background checks on politicians?


There is your cited evidence.

[PavePusher]

36. Nice strawman, but no-one has claimed that machine-guns would have helped anyone.

And I see no call for ending back-ground checks, I see a call for stopping abuse of them.

[benEzra]

39. OK, show me in the news where such legislation is being introduced in Congress.

The legislation on the pro-bans side is introduced every session, and we heard just this week that it will be introduced again.

[spin]

29. The AWB was an example of a no sense law ...

It failed to accomplish what it was designed to do and in fact made "assault weapons" popular and turned them from rare curios into best selling products.

If she doesn't realize that the AWB was a total failure then she probably isn't qualified to be in office.