The Giffords Gun Clip: How A 'Weapon Of Mass Destruction' Became 'The Weapon Of Choice'

[onehandle]

WASHINGTON -- Is there a good reason to have 33 bullets loaded in a handgun? This is the question being asked in the wake of the shooting of Democratic Rep. Gabrielle Giffords in Tucson, Ariz. over the weekend. The suspect, Jared Loughner, allegedly used a high-capacity 33-round magazine in his Glock-19 pistol. Without the need to reload as quickly, the shooter was able to effectively hold bystanders at bay, keeping them from intervening until 20 people had already been shot.

Now, with six dead and more than a dozen injured over the weekend, the few vocal gun-control advocates left in Congress are turning the political spotlight on those high-capacity clips and magazines. In the House, Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-N.Y.), whose husband was killed and son severely injured by a gunman in 1993, said she plans to introduce legislation that would limit their availability.

"They are weapons of mass destruction," she told The Huffington Post Monday, "and they've become the weapon of choice."

Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-N.J.), another fierce gun-control advocate, is working to introduce similar legislation in the upper chamber. "The only reason to have 33 bullets loaded in a handgun is to kill a lot of people very quickly," Lautenberg said in a statement.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/10/giffords-gun-clip-weapon-mass-destruction_n_807033.html

[rbixby]

1. I could never understand

why anyone would see a legitimate need for assault weapons or these extended capacity clips. They don't really have a legitimate purpose other than to kill people as quickly and efficiently as possible. Do you need a 33 round clip to defend your house from intruders?

[Wednesdays]

5. What do you do if you have 33 intruders in your home?

:shrug:

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

6. I call it "Christmas" and hope all those relatives leave soon.

Thank Dog the holidays are over.

:hi:

[freeplessinseattle]

10. lol. thank you. so needed that. n/t

[rbixby]

9. carry an extra clip? nt

[X_Digger]

15. What, in the pocket of your bathrobe?

My other hand would be occupied with a cell phone, calling the cops. That's also why I have a light attached to my handgun, rather than carrying a flashlight.

[rbixby]

27. So a 30 round clip is something

everyone should have, as well as a gun, because people's homes are frequently being invaded by small armies of thugs?

[X_Digger]

29. I'd rather have it and not need it than the reverse.

Dallas had a spate of home invasions a couple of years ago, where a bunch of thugs would break into occupied homes, tie up and sometimes kill the occupant(s)..

http://www.wfaa.com/news/crime/Man-shot-killed-in-East-Dallas-home-invasion-robbery-105867698.html
http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local-beat/Dallas_Home_Invasion_Prompts_Crime_Alert_Dallas-Fort_Worth.html
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/071508dnmetganginvasion.44681d4.html
http://www.pegasusnews.com/news/2009/dec/09/canyon-oaks-couple-fall-victim-home-invasion/

If it takes more than 10 rounds to subdue 4 or 5 robbers, what would you have me do? Beg for mercy?

[rbixby]

30. So basically

you're saying that there's a 4 in 300,000,000 chance of something like that happening to you specifically, therefore you need lots of guns? Do you play the lottery too?

[X_Digger]

32. Umm, read the article.. 70 home invasions by one 'ring'

Many of them were targeted in the area I live in.

Two were less than a mile from where I'm sitting right now.

But hey, I also have a fire extinguisher in my truck, as well as a first aid kit and a bottle of water.

In the US there are 400,000 residential fires every year, and there are ~105,000,000 homes. Odds of a home fire? 1 in 263.

http://www.cdc.gov/HomeandRecreationalSafety/Fire-Prevention/fires-factsheet.html

According to the DOJ, the rate of being the victim of a violent crime is 20 / 1,000 overall (as high as 27 / 1,000 for some groups like african americans.) That comes out to 1 in 50.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=1743

[RSillsbee]

19. Multiple persons in a home invasion

I'd love to have a 33 round magazine under those circumstances

[Atypical Liberal]

21. How to understand.

I could never understand why anyone would see a legitimate need for assault weapons or these extended capacity clips.

Perhaps this will help. When you go to buy a car, you are going to look for the car that gives you the most features in your price range. Whether that is the most cargo carrying capability, or the most seating, or the best mileage, you want the most for your money.

When one buys a pistol for defensive purposes, one has to weigh the size of the bullet against the magazine capacity. Larger bullets give better stopping power, but the tradeoff is that the firearm can usually carry less of them than they can smaller bullets.

For example, the Colt 1911, developed in 1911, typically carries 7 rounds of .45 ACP:



There are extended magazines that stick out of the grip to allow an increased capacity, but most people find them unwieldy. It makes the firearm more awkward to manipulate and holster, and heavier.

This pistol, the Springfield Armory XDM in 9mm, holds 19 rounds of 9mm:



Both of these pistols are in about the same price range - $700-$800, depending on brand (1911 pistols are made by a variety of manufacturers and can be had for as little as $350).

Now if I'm going to spend $500 or more on a pistol, the number of shots it is capable of might be a consideration for me (and in fact it is). Even though the 9mm is considered by many to be on the low-end for self-defense, as the Loughner shooting shows it is still quite deadly, and our police and military forces carry it frequently.

Why would I settle for a pistol that can only carry 7 rounds, when for the same money I can get one that carries 19 without the use of the unwieldy extended magazines?

[lawodevolution]

24. If you do not own the items you mentioned you have no say in what their legitimate use is

My Ak47 is a fantastic recreational firearm for target shooting and I also like that it would be useful for hunting if there ever were a need to hunt. My 75 round magazines may not be necessary but I own them because of the last federal magazine capacity limits that were in place before. If they never started trying to ban high cap magazines I would not own so many of them. I would also not have placed another rather large order for more high cap mags yesterday if high cap magazine bans were not mentioned. Hope all of you bought some because dealers are going out of stock right now and seeing how gun buying panics have gone in the past it may be several years before the production fully catches up to the demand for these items.

[rbixby]

28. So what's the purpose of the 75 round magazine then?

I guess I don't understand, when you go hunting do you just spray the woods with gunfire and hope to kill something? Also, aren't more conventional bolt-action guns a lot more accurate for hunting?

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

31. What's the point of family sedans that can travel 120mph?

There is no legitimate point really. Other than enjoyment.

[Kingofalldems]

2. Here they come

:popcorn:

[malaise]

4. I'll never understand the NRA or its defenders

Who needs these clips and why?

[brendan120678]

8. Some people enjoy...

firearms, and their related accessories. While these MAGAZINES may not be necessary for everyday use, to some they are fun to use while at the firing range or target shooting.

[slackmaster]

12. Need is not the issue

Wanting something is sufficient reason for a person to be able to have it.

[Recursion]

13. I'll never understand why people refuse to learn...

...the difference between a magazine and a clip.

[Hoyt]

14. I'll never understand why it matters. It's pretty simple to understand what the poster is saying.

Now, back to the point. Why do people need such a magazine if they truly want to carry a gun just for protection from the .0000000072136 chance that there is a mugger behind a tree, or in line at Chuck E Cheeze, or in a nursery school, etc.

Guns-in-every-waistband promoters think that people have to know the difference or their POV doesn't matter. Or maybe they don't want to discuss the real issue.

[Recursion]

25. Well, you clearly don't like them

So it seems like it might behoove you to learn what they actually are.

[slackmaster]

23. Recursion, to understand recursion...

...You must understand recursion.

[Euromutt]

22. You really don't have anything of substance to contribute, do you?

The only comments you've made on the various threads prompted by the Giffords shooting is to predict the imminent arrival of the "Gungeoneers" and roll your eyes, as if there were somehow something inherently illegitimate in disagreeing with you and the people whose opinions you share. Well, guess what? This is a discussion forum, not an agreement forum, and frankly, being intolerant of dissent is hardly a liberal value. Maybe you should try opening your mind a crack; you might learn something.

[ewagner]

3. I can already hear the argument/debate(sic)

from the NRA and some of the paranoid, conspiracy addled followers:

"When we need to overthrow the TYRANTS they will have the military with all their firepower so we need to be as well armed as they are."

I've heard this crap in the coffee shops for years; especially when the assault weapons ban was set to expire.

[Deep13]

7. The cut-off here in OH is 30, except for .22LR...

...for which there is no limit. That rules out high-capacity snail magazines for AR15s and AK varients.

For the record, WMDs are nuclear, chemical or biological weapons--not small arms.

[offmybrain]

11. "They are weapons of mass destruction"

Anyone else think it was a poor choice of words.
You don't need a 33 rd clip if your this fast.Not sure if its the worlds fastest but its fast.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxzrahUUTi8

[kudzu22]

16. If 30 round magazines are WMDs,

Then we all owe Bush an apology -- found all kinds of those in Iraq :-)

[Xenotime]

26. Ha! Funny..but...keep that kind of shit to yourself.

[Bonhomme Richard]

17. The 9mm I bought came with two 17 round magazines.

Do I really need that?...no. Would I consider it overkill?....probably, but it is nice not to have to reload so often at the range. I also don't carry it on me because, like most of us, I don't typically end up in areas that I worry about that much about my safety. On subject, I don't see a need for 30 round pistol magazines just like I don't see a need for silencers.

[X_Digger]

18. Actually, supressors are a safety device..

They don't make a gun silent (closest would be a 22lr), that's a hollywood myth.

I end up having to use ear plugs and muffs at the range, I'd love to only have to use one or the other.

Interestingly, they're available over the counter in many european countries.

[Bonhomme Richard]

20. I was actually thinking the .22. A friend of mine.....

manufactures them.

[Euromutt]

33. I think it's time to declare the term "Weapon of Mass Destruction" officially dead

(I'm going to quote myself here http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=350069&mesg_id=350287)

If there is any way to more effectively render the term "Weapon of Mass Destruction" meaningless than to use it as if it were interchangeable with "weapon," I don't know what it is.

The whole point of a term like "weapon of mass destruction" is that it refers to a weapon system that can cause widespread damage and/or mass casualties using comparatively small amounts of material and manpower in a single application. For example, the "physics package" of the W80 warhead (designed for use in BGM-109A Tomahawk, AGM-86 and AGM-129 cruise missiles) weighs ~132 kilos (291 pounds) but can yield a destructive force equivalent to that of 150,000 metric tons of TNT. Biological weapons, because they consist of replicating entities (bacteria, viruses, fungi, et al.), can theoretically inflict casualties indefinitely with an initial deployment of a few grams of agent. For example, in late 1941, a 40-man detachment from Japan's Unit 731 air-dropped fleas infected with bubonic plague on the Chinese city of Changde, resulting in an estimated 7,600 Chinese dead from infection over the following months. In an enclosed space, a fairly small amount of hydrogen cyanide can kill quite a large number of people, as the Germans demonstrated in the gas chambers of Auschwitz, Majdanek and Sachsenhausen. Hell, one of the main reasons the Germans adopted gas chambers as the primary method of extermination was because shooting proved too time-consuming, manpower-intensive and costly in ammunition.

If you start watering the term "weapon of mass destruction" down to where it means any weapon used the process of inflicting a large amount of damage, regardless of the amount of manpower and number of weapons involved, potentially anything is a weapon of mass destruction. The Rwandan genocide resulted in the deaths of some 800,000-1.17 million people in less than three months, mostly inflicted using machetes. "Mass destruction," certainly, but does that make the machete a "weapon of mass destruction"? Well, hardly, considering that in preparation for the genocide, the organizers imported some 581,000 machetes, which means the number of dead per machete was on average 2, at the very most. While the results of the Rwandan genocide might fairly be termed "mass destruction," they required the participation of certainly tens of thousands, and probably hundreds of thousands, of people to achieve. Similarly, the problem with former UN Sec-Gen Annan's characterization of small arms as "weapons of mass destruction in slow motion" is that the death toll inflicted using small arms involves a thousands upon thousands of weapons, wielded by thousands upon thousands of people.

[YllwFvr]

34. High capacity mags are rarely used in crime

as a matter of fact, if you look at the top ten guns used in crime pretty much every one of them is low capacity
Ill help you look
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,320383,00.html
there you go!

Small, very concealable, and with that comes low round count. While the shotgun is big, it holds only a few shells.

[Hoopla Phil]

35. LMAO or How a semi-auto handgun becomes a "weapon of mass destruction"

What a bunch of hyperbole pap.