Aww crap, they're doing it again!!!!

[PavePusher]

Rachel just dragged out the old dead horses of plastic handguns, "cop killer bullets" and is almost foaming at the mouth about large-capacity magazines.

Doesn't she have fact checkers? Seriously?

With "friends" like these, who needs Repubs?

[baldguy]

1. If the truth hurts....

[PavePusher]

3. Fortunately, with "reporting" like that, I'm pain-free.

But I'm watching the next election blow up in our faces.

[Katya Mullethov]

22. It's like cocaine dude

They cant help themselves . Just look at this fuckin madhouse ! It went from all stop to full afterburners in an afternoon and it's still WFO .

I'll give it a week after the news cycle moves on .

[PavePusher]

32. I'm taking a break after tonight.

My nose can't take it... the smell... much more.

[Katya Mullethov]

49. Just the feel that love baby !

No interest in Constitutional Carry !?!?Ahahahahahaha . All this venom has been good for business .

[rl6214]

83. There was no truth

in anything that was reported tonight.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[derby378]

4. What's weird is that she's had experience with "black rifles" in the past

Buried somewhere in the Amendment II Democrats archives on Facebook is a link to Rachel discussing with Conan O'Brien or someone what it was like when she met her SO's family and got hold of an AR-15. Not that she's comfortable with keeping such guns at home, mind you, but I think she got a better look at the other side of the fence.

[Cirque du So-What]

5. Allow me to remind you

that the shooter was tackled - by a 60-year-old woman, mind you - while attempting to reload after emptying one high-capacity magazine. We must make sure that the next person who decides to go on a murderous rampage doesn't have 2nd Amendment rights trampled by do-gooders who would restrict their access to high-capacity magazines. :sarcasm:

[eleny]

8. +1

[baldguy]

11. Don't try to cloud the issue with facts.

[friendly_iconoclast]

14. And what facts would those be? Inform us....

G'wan, tell us!

[baldguy]

17. There were armed people in that crowd. They didn't stop the shooter.

An unarmed grandma did.

[friendly_iconoclast]

62. The armed people weren't there as Auxilliary Citizen Crimestoppers.

and anybody who tells you otherwise is full of it. Kudos to the woman who tackled Loughner, though.

That is bravery by any metric.

[baldguy]

84. Yeah, I always thought that "An armed society is a polite society" was a load of BS.

But acknowledging that does remove one of the gun's rights advocates major talking points.

[beevul]

75. Unless im mistaken...

The armed person that was there came outside from a drug store AFTER the shooting.

[RamboLiberal]

79. There was 1 armed guy in a store around the corner

who got to the scene after the shooter was tackled. But let's not let facts get in the way.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x356031

[Atypical Liberal]

100. Is this what you would prefer?

If there were no firearms in the hands of law-abiding citizens, then every time there was a violent assault it would become a physical contest of strength to stop them. Is this what you prefer?

[GreenStormCloud]

103. Please prove that there were armed people in the crowd.

The only one I am aware of was inside the store.

[friendly_iconoclast]

15. They should be restricted to 10 rounds like the guy in the Luby's massacre?

More people were killed there than in AZ, but it's the thought that counts, eh?

[Cirque du So-What]

20. So Loughner was an underachiever

and the Luby's murderer was an overachiever. BFD. Anything that slows down the killing process is a good thing, and if that cramps anyone's can-plunking style, then tough titty toenail.

[TheWraith]

34. So you admit there's no rational reason to restrict it, you just want to restrict SOMETHING.

And when that doesn't satisfy you, or the next time someone commits a very public crime, what's the next thing you want to tighten the screws on?

New York has had a permanent ban on normal capacity magazines for 17 years. It didn't stop the guy who decided to kill an entire women's exercise class in Binghamton.

[YllwFvr]

94. not to rain on your parade...

because I get what you are going for and im all for it. The class of women was in Pittsburgh, and the binghamton shooting was at a community center where non citizens were taking citizenship classes. I usually watch the details to these shootings, and the binghamton ordeal was about twenty minutes away from my house.

[TheWraith]

98. (Bangs head) Sorry. I mixed up the details. nt

[Ruby the Liberal]

21. Luby's massacre?

[Katya Mullethov]

31. POS drove in the front and then walked around and shot 43 people

Killing 24 . The first thing Texas did was to start the process of restoring freedoms .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIeyn0-rdx4

[PavePusher]

33. Google is your friend:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby's_massacre

[Ruby the Liberal]

19. 61

Not that it matters, but damn. I am mid-40s and could only HOPE to have that adrenaline in me.

[X_Digger]

57. Or god forbid he'd used the second gun he bought..

hint: google 'New York Reload'

[GreenStormCloud]

102. Some facts for you.

Loughner wasn't trying to reload. He was trying to clear a jam. Reloading takes only one second. Do you seriously believe that if he were limited to a 10 round magazine that he would have to completely stop after 10 rounds? The VT killer, the Luby's killer, and the Ft. Hood killer all reloaded multiple times. The VT killer reloaded 17 times. Louhner screwed up by using a hi-cap magazine, because such magazine have a very high tendency to fail to feed the last couple of rounds thereby causing the gun to jam. Clearing a jam can give people time to reach the shooter. Reloading doesn't give that much time. At the Luby's killing a man attempted to rush the shooter while he was reloading, but he didn't make it. The killer finished reloading and shot him.

Loughner's magazine was a 33 rd magazine. He fired 31 rounds. Then his pistol failed to feed the 32nd round due to a weak follower spring in the magazine. That allowed time for the lady to tackle him.

[Lurks Often]

6. The motives for the story aren't based in fact, but are based

in emotion, an irrational hatred and/or fear of an object and the desire to have control over other people.

[spin]

7. The media tends to abuse its responsibility to report facts ...

the constitution granted freedom of the press but there is no requirement to use that freedom in a responsible manner.

Now Rachel is trying to push microstamping ammo. I'd pull my hair out, but I have a shaved head. I got tired of paying for a haircut when so little hair was left.

[PavePusher]

35. With reporting like this...

you're just avoiding a self-induced scalping...

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PavePusher]

29. Talking about it is fine...

but when the accuser is speaking from a position of ignorance and saying nothing based on facts or evidence, it's hard to take her seriously.

[valerief]

10. Bullets kill. nt

[friendly_iconoclast]

13. That they do- so it's important that people use factual information when talking about them

[oneshooter]

55. So do knives, sissors, swimming pools, cars, and plastic 5 gallon buckets.

And your point is?

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[valerief]

61. Bullet ONLY kill. That's their purpose. Buh-bye forever! nt

[YllwFvr]

96. really?

I guess Im doing it wrong. Ive fired thousands of rounds and never even wounded or maimed a single person. Mine blow small holes in paper, what they were made to do

[Bold Lib]

107. Damn, I have/had many thousands of defective bullets then. None of them

have killed anybody.

[GreenStormCloud]

105. That's why I carry a LOADED gun. N/T

[ProgressiveProfessor]

12. It was really disappointing to see her discredit herself like she did

[Ruby the Liberal]

23. Discredit herself, how exactly?

What exactly did she say that you disagree with in regards to plastic guns?

[slackmaster]

26. Undetectable plastic guns have never been manufactured or sold in the US

They do not exist and have never existed.

I'm not watching TV, but I can tell what the discussion is about.

[Ruby the Liberal]

37. So this should be a legal industry startup?

Gee, where do I send a check?

:sarcasm:

[TheWraith]

39. When someone repeats an urban legend on the news, it kind of ruins their credibility.

I normally have a very high opinion of Rachel, and I was really disappointed that she went so far off the facts tonight.

[RamboLiberal]

81. +1 - Rachel made me wonder if I need to fact check

her on other issues. Wow she repeated a lot of fallacies and misinformation tonight. And no Rachel, you could've found info on google.

[PavePusher]

42. Who's suggesting that?

Put the Strawman away, it's not within the dress code...

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PavePusher]

50. Well, it's a good thing I can tolerate a lot of ignorance.

It is, you should be informed, a repairable condition.

And we've tried, Lord, we've tried.

[AtheistCrusader]

88. It's a line from the first Die Hard movie. The item doesn't exist. Never has.

Yet politicians used to spout off about them all the time, and here she is, almost 20 years later, complaining about something that STILL doesn't exist.

[beevul]

92. Second die hard movie, IIRC.

The one that had as a setting for a good part of it, an airport.


Not the first one where most of the movie was set at nakatomi plaza.

[Euromutt]

93. Correct, Die Hard 2: Die Harder

Only the fictitious weapon (a "Glock model 7") was ceramic, not plastic.

Wasn't John Malkovich's character's gun in In The Line of Fire made from some kind of plastic, though?

[beevul]

95. Not sure...

I haven't seen that one.

[Euromutt]

99. Let me look on IMFDB.org...

Yeah, here it is: http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/In_the_Line_of_Fire#Composite_Pistol

As one of the photo captions notes: "Pretty accurate for a gun that likely is smooth bore and has no sights..."

[ileus]

109. Looked like wood by color...???

[KansasVoter]

70. Wow, technology never improves does it?? Fail!

[AtheistCrusader]

89. That boogeyman was introduced in the first Die Hard movie. 22 years ago.

They still don't exist. They are unlikely to exist. It would require a revolution in polymer technology that simply does not exist at this time, even 22 years after the first suggestion.


This 'rumor' was created by a hollywood screenwriter that does not understand the purpose of a glock's polymer frame. The slide, barrel and mag are still metal. MORE than enough, by many ounces, over the federal requirements, for a firearm to show up on a metal detector or xray.


The weapons don't exist. They won't exist. AND THEY ARE ALREADY FUCKING ILLEGAL BECAUSE THEY WOULD CONTAIN TOO LITTLE METAL BY FEDERAL LAW.

Might as well be complaining about snarks and boojums.

[YllwFvr]

97. people would have done it by now if it was reliable.

but gun powder tends to explode. High pressure and plastics/ polymers dont mix too well. Steel barrels tend to be a must if you want a projectile that flies fast. arguing against something that MAY exist at some point defies logic

[PavePusher]

27. She said nothing based on reality or fact.

That tends to make us disagree with people who spout such nonsense.

[Ruby the Liberal]

38. Oh horseshit.

They stopped a cottage industry that had NO business doing business here and she called them out on the vote.

[PavePusher]

40. What "cottage industry"?

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PavePusher]

51. Please reference post #25 again. Info added. Please. n/t

[X_Digger]

71. No such industry existed, ever..

It's like congress passed a law that outlawed the 'cottage industry' of creating anti-gravity skateboards.

Yes, it was that stupid.

[DissedByBush]

59. Same old tired lies

A Glock is still over three-quarters steel.

The "cop killer" bullets were designed in the 60s for law enforcement use and were NEVER offered for sale to the public.

And despite what you saw on Lethal Weapon, they will not penetrate a tractor shovel.

And Teflon doesn't make them armor piercing.

[AtheistCrusader]

87. That they have ever existed.

Polymer frame (plastic) guns show up just fine on metal detectors, because the important bits are still metal. Making the frame out of plastic makes the weapon lighter and more comfortable, it does ZILCH to hide it from a metal detector or x-ray machine. 2/3 of the mass of the gun is still metal, it HAS to be metal, or it explodes in your hand.

[ileus]

110. X-rays will image plastic people...

[madinmaryland]

16. Thankfully this kind of crap gets dumped in here, though it still shows up

on the latest page. :mad:

[PavePusher]

24. Sorry, I started this in the Guns forum.

I'll try to disappoint you next time.

[AtheistCrusader]

90. Yes, god forbid anyone fact check the news, when it is egregiously off in fantasy land.

I love Rachel, I really do, but this is just not her subject, holy crap. She knows nothing about it, and apparently either refused to have it fact checked, or refuses any corrections she is offered.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PavePusher]

25. That's because Dick knew....

THAT PLASTIC GUNS ARE ONLY A MOVIE MYTH.

Maybe the only thing he ever got right.

Edit to add:

http://www.youdebate.com/DEBATES/plastic_gun.HTM

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1202/is-it-possible-to-make-an-undetectable-nonmetal-gun

Factual information is your friend.

[TheWraith]

36. Not to be rude, but you don't get to decide that.

No more than the right-winger gets to decide whether they have to wander past those evil, immoral, perverted homos in order to pick up their six pack of beer. You can feel however you like, but you don't have the right to impose your views onto others, and the majority in this country not only supports people's right to own guns, but also to carry them for self defense.

[Ruby the Liberal]

43. I have no issue with carrying guns.

I do however have an issue with semi and auto weaponry as well as 'plastic/non-detectable' weaponry as I have yet to see a single explanation of the benefit to society (or personal safety) these items provide.

Please feel free to fill me in on how society benefits, someone is safer, or hunting is vastly improved from 30 bullet + magazines.

[PavePusher]

45. Please look at post #25 again.

I added links to explainations of "plastic guns".

In short, there ain't no sich thang.

[TheWraith]

52. First off, most weapons from the last hundred years are at least semi-auto.

Or fire exactly as fast as a semi-auto, in the case of revolvers. The idea that semi-auto handguns are some kind of extra dangerous superweapon is a fraud. Furthermore, automatic weapons are tightly regulated, and plastic weapons simply do not exist. Nor have they ever. They are entirely an urban legend, a fiction of bad journalism and Hollywood screenwriters.

I'd like to know how society benefits from cigarettes--but that doesn't mean I think I have the right to ban them because I don't like them.

[beevul]

76. For the 100th time.

Despite what you may have seen in lethal weapon or die hard movies, there IS NO PLASTIC UNDETECTABLE HANDGUN.

I REPEAT THERE IS NO SUCH THING ANYWHERE ON PLANET EARTH.

"I do however have an issue with semi and auto weaponry as well as 'plastic/non-detectable' weaponry as I have yet to see a single explanation of the benefit to society (or personal safety) these items provide."

You can have an issue with semi-automatic and automatic weapons to your hearts content, but:

A. Automatic weapons have been tightly controlled since 1934 and aren't a crime problem.

B. Semi-automatic weapons are THE standard in America, and you will not have any success placing special restrictions on them, or ban them.

The KKK has no benefit to society, but thier speech is protected, and the aclu even defends it.

Likewise, whether you think semi-automatic weapons are a benefit to society or not, possession of them by us is protected by the second amendment to the constitution of the United States.

[PavePusher]

86. Have you determined the facts about "plastic guns" yet? n/t

[AtheistCrusader]

91. Auto weapons banned since 1986, controlled before that and 'plastic guns' don't exist.

You might as well be asking for legislation protecting certain airspace from intrusion by santa claus.

[hlthe2b]

28. I have an observation that is fascinating to me...

I am only putting it out there, anecdotal, while it might be. I unintentionally became a bystander to a dozen former co-workers from a former job discussing guns at lunch today as an aside during a going away party for another employeea. All but one were staunch Second Amendment rights advocates and gun owners/enthusiasts and all were right wing leaning (we had to call for the subject to be changed repeatedly when President Obama or Rep. Pelosi's name came up, so you know). Yet, the discussion was pretty amazingly in favor of minor restrictions and they were ok with banning these large capacity magazines. They didn't want to see further restrictions pn available guns, nor registries nor any of the other contentious issues we hear about here, but to a one, they thought these 30 round (or whatever they are) magazines were excessive.

By contrast, I don't see that as the case among progressive gun rights advocates. Just observing.... But it was pretty amazing to see the conservative gun owners in this small sample to be seemingly less entrenched than those on the left. :shrug:

[PavePusher]

30. Probably because they didn't know what they were talking about.

If you'll recall, that's a common trait for many people, no matter what the subject or the speakers political bent.

Just because they agreed with your position doesn't mean they were correct.

[hlthe2b]

44. I never expressed an opinion... Are you kidding?

With a table of a dozen RETHUGS?


But, good to know that apparently only progressive gun owners know anything about guns and ammo. Not being very gun-knowledgeable myself, I wouldn't argue, but that seems a bit unlikely. These weren't teabaggers, just run of the mill conservative Republicans or REPUB-leaning libertarians.

[PavePusher]

48. Ha, you can put the Strawman back now, I made no such claim.

I merely indicated that not everyone knows what they are talking about when it comes to guns, no matter what their credentials.

Well, except me of course. I'm Mr. Magnifico! :silly:

[hlthe2b]

53. I'm not arguing a strawman...

I'm asking why you assume them not to know anything about extended magazines and why they should or should not be banned.

Also correcting your wrong impression that they had agreed with "ME" since I never voiced an opinion and have never discussed guns with them (or anyone else I've worked with to my memory).

[PavePusher]

56. Perhaps I should have said their opinion was congruent to yours?

Or am I reading your opinion wrong?

"But, good to know that apparently only progressive gun owners know anything about guns and ammo."

If that's not a Strawman, it's certainly got to be fresh from the hayrack.

[hlthe2b]

58. I don't have a strong opinion formed either way yet...

I am open to limited targeted regulation if it can be established that it would make a difference in either preventing these incidents (which would be hard to imagine) or could lessen the magnitude. That is why I was listening to their opinions. Otherwise, knowing I likely would not agree with any of their political views, I probably would have tuned out.

[PavePusher]

60. Then you have my sincere apology, I read into your posts what wasn't there.

Mea Culpa.

All I can say in excuse is that it's been a busy night around here, and I got distracted.

Still trying to convince someone that plastic guns that can get through airport detectors exist only in the alternate 'reality' of the movie screen. Sigh.

I'll do a few extra sprints and pushups tonight as penance.

[hlthe2b]

63. I understand and appreciate the apology...

but what I'd really like to see is more discussion in this forum and education back and forth. Too much defensiveness sort of defeats the purpose, it seems.

[PavePusher]

66. Well, there's been a lot to be defensive about today. Sigh.

Time for my run and then some dinner. Back later, maybe.

[Statistical]

67. They just are uninformed. McCarthy "sensible compromise" is banning all mags over 10rnds.

Oh yeah except the Police.

There is no middle ground. No gun control proposed in the last 20 years has been sensible or common sense.

As soon as they find out McCarthy goal is to ban virtually every magazine (not just stupid 30 rounders) made in the last decade their tune will change.

[X_Digger]

72. Not sure if you've ever experienced it, or paid attention if you've seen it..

But there's a group of gun owners who I like to call the 'deer and duck' crowd.

As long as their over and under duck gun, or their engraved benelli trap gun, or their bolt action remington isn't affected, they'll agree to anything.

They rarely own any handgun other than a revolver (because it belonged to their father / grandfather, etc) and they could care less about anything else.

Their general attitude is, "Leave mine alone and I don't care what you ban."

They're hunters- and they're a minority of gun owners.

Another common name for them is FUDs- both because of the 'Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt', and the comparison to Elmer Fudd.

[beevul]

78. When some deranged asshole...

When some deranged asshole (god forbid) intigates a high profile shooting with a scoped .308 deer rifle, or mows a crowd down with a winchester model 12 shotgun (high capacity by design) and talk starts that "nobody needs rifles that powerful or accurate, or shotguns like those..."


Maybe they'll wise up.

[benEzra]

85. Were they aware that the McCarthy-Lautenberg bill would also ban NON-extended pistol magazines?

and most popular RIFLE magazines? She wants to ban 11-round magazines (for all guns, not just 30-round pistol mags.

To hear the MSM tell it, McCarthy et al want to merely require flush-fitting standard-capacity magazines on pistols only, rather than reverting all magazine capacities back to the fricking 1860's.

About the only gun owners whom a 10-round limit wouldn't affect would be the small minority who hunt/shoot skeet and don't own any double-stack pistols or modern rifles, or who shoot only revolvers and old single-stack pistols. The rest of us, it would screw royally.

[benEzra]

113. Oops, double post. (n/t)

[shedevil69taz]

41. Its not so much "reporting"

as it is mindless spewing forth of not very well thought out opinion. Most of the talking head retards on the 24/7 "news" channels are that way.

[PavePusher]

54. Jesus Christ on a fucking pogo stick, now Laurence O'Donnell is tagging in.

Laws that keep criminals and the mentally ill from getting guns... like California has.

Oh dear.

[friendly_iconoclast]

65. Don't worry PP, if you can't afford any new magazines, there's plenty of *this* to be had:

It's just sad to see Rachel Maddow pitching it...

[Pancho Sanza]

69. These people remind me of the "meteorologists" on teevee who say shit like

"Adams county reported hail all the way from nickel up to dime size" (true story)

[X_Digger]

73. Yeah, I think there were maybe one or two sentences re guns that were actually true.

I wanted a foam brick to throw at my TV.

[Hoyt]

74. Hey guys, maybe you should reconsider your position.

I know lots of folks who said they'd never start smoking. But, when they started getting treated like they had a serious contagious disease, they changed their mind. Some found new thing to replace smoking. Try it. You might actually find out you have the guts to walk out the door without a weapon, and enjoy being like 95% of the population (ie, no gun stuffed down your pants).

[PavePusher]

80. I do so every day.

I am not allowed to have personal firearms... on a military base.

That seems to have worked out real well at Ft. Hood, didn't it, you vile piece of filth.

Go self-fornicate until you have nothing but the handful of blood you walked in with.

[friendly_iconoclast]

82. Why? Because you only insult gun owners? They're not *that* thin skinned.

Or you'll let them sit with you at the popular kids table? Protip: you're not that popular, they have already lived with

your disapproval, and they will do so in the future.


Also, they do tend to have excellent institutional memory, as well as good Google skills.

So I can guarantee that a lot of the bile aimed in their direction here at DU will be quoted extensively come election time

whenever a pro-gun candidate takes on an anti-gun Dem.


So by all means keep up the culture war. It took Hitler 130 years to forget the lesson Napoleon learned: Don't invade Russia.

It's only taken 16 years for some Democrats to forget another lesson: Don't get into a culture war with gun owners.

[friendly_iconoclast]

64. I think Rachel is hitting the "Obama's secret plan to establish a sultanate..." stage at my poll

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x357079#357140

[Pancho Sanza]

68. I wish she would stick to subjects she actually knows something about.

shit.

[X_Digger]

77. What really disappointed me? She discouraged folks to look for information..

I mean, christ, wikipedia could have corrected her wrong ideas about plastic guns and 'cop killer' bullets.

[Atypical Liberal]

101. Link?

I have not seen the video.

[PavePusher]

104. It was back in January, shortly after the Giffords shooting.

You'd have to search through the Maddow show archives, or Youtube.

[PavePusher]

112. Actually, it was Jan. 11, the night I posted the O.P. Heh........ n/t

[Logical]

106. If you think rachel is not a real progressive then you are not either......

Many progressives dislike the gun cause. But are still progressive. I'll take a 100000000 rachels over one pro-gun republican.

[rl6214]

108. Sensationalism

Always good for a few ratings points.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

111. That is all it was done for...sad is many respects