So, members of this forum, is the "Gun Show Loophole" real?

[KansasVoter]

Can anyone buy guns at a gun show with no background check?

I don't know but I see people saying Rachel was lying.

[liberal N proud]

1. Here is what a gun enthusiast told me yesterday

You can go to a gun show and buy a semi automatic weapon at one table and go to the next table and buy the parts to make it fully automatic.

No background check.

I believe the guy, he is has always been reputable and has no reason to lie to me. It was casual conversation.

[badtoworse]

2. That does not sound right to me

It's my understanding that possession of the parts to make a firearm fully automatic is illegal. I believe that it is contolled under the Firearms Act of 1934.

There are people a lot more knowledgeable about this than I am on this board. I'm sure someone will weigh in.

Gun shows are not big in NJ, so I've never been to one.

[27nitro]

5. False

The full auto parts are just as illegal.

[aikoaiko]

13. You're friend is wrong.

It is not impossible to turn a semiauto into a full auto weapon, but it very difficult to do with new firearms.

Anything that would be a drop in device is heavily regulated and would require more than the usual background check.

[guitar man]

22. 10 years in the federal pen

and a $10k fine is what that will get you if you get caught at it.

Most modern semi autos are very difficult to convert and the "conversion kits" I've seen are more likely to turn the rifle into scrap or a wall decoration.

[Flyboy_451]

27. your friend is either mistaken or is a liar....

Is it possible to purchase the parts kit required to build full autos? Yes, but these parts kits are the parts that are regulated by federal law and require specific licensing and a $200 transfer tax.

The only parts kits that are available to anyone who does not have either a Class III dealers license or a Class II manufacturers license, are those made prior to 1986. Any of these items made after that are referred to as post sample parts and may only be traded amongst dealers, manufacturers and military/law enforcement agencies. The reason they are referred to as post sample is because they were manufactured after 1986 and the only way a dealer may possess them is on specific request from a military/law enforcement agency for a demonstration (or sample) of the weapon. Manufacturers may possess them because they are licensed to produce this type of equipment.

Now, after one has jumped through all the hoops required to get such licenses, do you really think it is likely that they are going to risk that investment to sell such parts to just anyone? Particularly, when these items are tightly regulated and tracked by the ATF? Seriously?

Ok, lets assume that we find such an unscrupulous dealer/manufacturer...The ATF has ruled that any semi-auto that can be readily converted to full auto IS A MACHINE GUN, and is thus, under the same requirements outlined previously. Just so there is not a misunderstanding here, that means that you can not go out and buy an AR-15 or AK clone and just buy a parts kit that drops in to make it full auto. The receivers are different, and the parts simply will not fit in them. In all likelihood, a skilled machinist with access to a machine shop could probably make such a conversion a reality, but now we are talking about far more than just buying some parts and throwing them into your AR-15. And you still have to be able to find the dealer willing to risk not only his freedom, but his business, to even acquire the parts. The myth of the gunshow machine gun is just that...a myth.

JW

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

36. Excellent/detailed/truthful post, sir! (n/t)

[Hangingon]

49. Good response!

[slackmaster]

52. That's a crock of shit

BATFE rules say that any part of combination of parts intended to convert a firearm to fire automatically is legally a machinegun.

[liberal N proud]

54. Just posted what I was told by a gun enthusiast

If you want to call it shit after 5 others have, keep on.

[kudzu22]

55. Not true

The auto-sear (the part that makes it full auto) is an NFA item and is tightly controlled by ATF. It is a federal felony to even possess an unregistered one. All transfers of auto-sears have to go through ATF. Maybe you could buy it, but it would be illegal and this is the sort of thing that ATF agents look for at gun shows, and they DO send agents to look -- often. Odds are nobody is selling one because they'd be risking 10 years in Club Fed.

As for background checks at gun shows, if you buy from a federally licensed dealer, they have to perform the NICS check. If you buy from a regular citizen, they don't perform a check. They're not even allowed to perform the check.

[spin]

69. Are you sure he was a "gun enthusiast"? ...

He probably doesn't know the difference between a clip and a magazine.

[old mark]

71. You can do that if

you are a character in an old Law & Order episode, but not in real life.


mark

[safeinOhio]

3. No it is not real.

The real deal is the loophole that allows handguns to be purchased in a private sale without a federal background check as required by a licensed dealer. It is an improper label, just like "automatic weapon" is used to describe a semiautomatic weapon. It just so happens that there are a lot of handguns sold at gun shows by private parties. Because of that it has been used to try and shut down gun shows. By passing laws that would require background checks on private sales, it would have little or no effect on gun shows. Both sides of the argument misuse the name.

[KansasVoter]

4. So can someone who cannot pass a normal background check get a gun at a show?

[PoliticAverse]

6. Read the Wikipedia article....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_shows_in_the_United_States

Which discusses what is called "The "Gun Show Loophole".

[RSillsbee]

16. A private sale

is a private sale no matter where the sale takes place. <2% of guns used in crimes came from gunshows

[KansasVoter]

23. But this makes the background check worthless. True?

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

39. So you agree that private sellers should be allowed/required to call in checks to NICS?

Just about EVERY poster I've seen in the gungeon feels that a private seller should be able to verify the eligability of a purchaser by calling NICS.

[RSillsbee]

46. Able to ? Yes

Required to? No

[kudzu22]

56. Should be allowed, can't be required

Since the Feds can only regulate interstate commerce, they can't enforce any rules on transactions within the same state (as between two residents of the same state). In my opinion, if they ALLOWED private citizens to run a NICS check, 95% of the private sellers would use it. As it is, it's not even allowed.

That would go a long way in reducing the so-called loophole.

[RSillsbee]

45. I've always thought NICS was a waste of time

what is your point?

[pipoman]

73. Why would you say that?

It has prohibited many thousands if not millions of ineligible people from buying guns. In fact I believe it is one of the primary factors in the decline in violent crime since 1994.

[RSillsbee]

74. I disagree

Criminals still seem to have access to firearms they just buy them in other places. Also, as some have pointed out if you are declined a sale no enforcement action is taken, they simply decline the sale.

If you are declined it's up to you to figure out why and prove that you should be allowed to own a weapon.

I know this is anecdotal but a friend of mine spent 2 years and several thousand dollars getting his name taken off that list. He was (assuming he was telling me the truth) on the list for something that happened over thirty years ago in California. He said it was so long ago that all that was in his file was a notation that he had been found guiltily of misdemeanor DV when he was 18.

If you limit the rolls to violent offenders and provide a consistant means of rights restoration I'd support it. Until then I think it's a waste of time

[GreenStormCloud]

57. Not if you want to buy a new gun.

If you are buying a used one, then the NICS check can be circumvented by buying from a private person. If you want to buy a new gun, then you have to go through a dealer.

[YllwFvr]

84. if only I was so lucky

long guns no check, all pistols, private or not, require a check here :(

[Atypical Liberal]

61. Yes, that is true.

Private sales in the United States generally do not require background checks. Consequently, any criminal or other disqualified person who wishes to buy a firearm need only look in the local Penny Saver classified ads and pay cash to buy from a private person.

This completely negates the NICS background system.

I would prefer a system like Illinois has with its FOID system, except instead of being an opt-in system, whereby only people who own firearms opt to get an FOID, it should be an opt-out system, whereby everyone who requests a drivers license or state-issued ID is automatically issued an FOID, if they pass the NICS check. In this way no de facto list of firearm owners is generated.

[safeinOhio]

64. That according to self reports

by criminals in jails and you would believe them? My guess is that those 2% of guns used in crimes include a lot of multiple crimes. As I have pointed out the "gun show loophole" is misused by both sides. If you want to include all private sale of handguns, that 2% might increase a bit. Do you have any numbers on the % of guns used in crimes that are from private sales not at gun shows.

[one-eyed fat man]

17. Maybe

Someone who cannot pass a background check can buy a gun from YOU!

You have claimed to belong to a gun club, shoot clay targets and infer you won a shotgun. If you sell that gun at the club, in the parking lot, through an ad in the local paper, at a yard sale, by putting up a card at the barber shop bulletin board are you the "gunshow loophole"?

[KansasVoter]

24. So basically, the store background check is worthless?

[one-eyed fat man]

32. You might be right.

There are two big failures possible:

First, Claire Vouyant, the lady in charge of predicting future crimes at the call center in West Virginia where the NICS checks are done has not entered any data. Therefore, if data for crimes or other disqualifying information from the past is missing, not current, or as for mental histories, protected by privacy laws, someone whose name should be declined may not be there.

Second, even if the name comes up, nothing happens beyond the sale is declined. There is no follow up. Remember, when the Brady Law was first passed Janet Reno was testifying before Congress on how many hundreds of thousands of felons had been stopped by the Brady law. Since the attempt to buy a gun by a felon is a crime, she was asked how many of those felons were arrested for trying to buy a gun. She replied that the law only symbolic it was never intended to arrest anyone.

Consider that for a moment. Charles Manson could break out of San Quentin, walk into a gun store, give his real name and try to buy a gun. If the system works, when the clerk phones the FBI they will simply tell him to decline the sale, they won't tell the clerk why.

The clerk declines the sale, old Charlie walks out, finds a guy selling dope and asks to buy a gun. By Janet's definition he has been stopped.

There is no follow up. The FBI does not call the local PD and alert them that Manson is down at Joe's Gun right this minute.

Are you asking if, for the most part, most crooks already know they are crooks so they don't they don't even bother going to gun stores?

[KansasVoter]

47. Wow, scary! Thanks!

[one-eyed fat man]

60. Simple explanation

Most gun laws are written by, and to placate, people who hate guns so completely they are too stupid, too technically inept, too blinded by their all consuming hatred to understand what they are regulating.

When the Law of Unintended Consequences bites their ignorant ass, they get what they deserve.

[27nitro]

7. From a dealer no from a ...

private seller yes but you can do that anywhere not just a gunshow. There are many more dealers than private sales at a gunshow.

[PoliticAverse]

9. Depends on the state.

Some stated restrict private sales at gun shows.

[X_Digger]

8. FFLs must do a background check on all sales, regardless of venue.

Because intra-state sales are not the purview of the federal government, there are no federal laws that regulate the sale of a firearm from one state resident to another state resident.

At the state level, some states do regulate those sales. They're a minority. DOJ reports show that a small percentage of criminals acquire guns from gun shows and flea markets- on the order of 1.6%, the last time it was calculated, when crime was twice as prevalent as now- http://rkba.org/research/bjs/fuo/fuo.pdf

[27nitro]

11. You are correct. NT

[safeinOhio]

12. From the wikipedia.org article

that sites ATF research.

In 2000, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) published the "Following the Gun" report.<16> The ATF analyzed more than 1,530 trafficking investigations over a two-and-a-half-year period and found gun shows to be the second leading source of illegally diverted guns in the nation (behind only corrupt federally licensed dealers). These investigations involved a total of 84,128 firearms that had been diverted from legal to illegal commerce. All told, the report identified more than 26,000 firearms that had been illegally trafficked through gun shows in 212 separate investigations. The report stated that: "A prior review of ATF gun show investigations shows that prohibited persons, such as convicted felons and juveniles, do personally buy firearms at gun shows and gun shows are sources of firearms that are trafficked to such prohibited persons. The gun show review found that firearms were diverted at and through gun shows by straw purchasers, unregulated private sellers, and licensed dealers. Felons were associated with selling or purchasing firearms in 46 percent of the gun show investigations. Firearms that were illegally diverted at or through gun shows were recovered in subsequent crimes, including homicide and robbery, in more than a third of the gun show investigations."

the rkba.org stats use self-reporting by felons as data.
truth may be somewhere in the middle.

[X_Digger]

53. Nor does the ATF break down those stats re straw sales, private sellers, or dealers.

If it's a straw purchase at a dealer table, and the person passes NICS check, and gives the dealer no reason to question the sale, it gets lumped in with private sales.

Spin, spin, spin.

[aikoaiko]

10. There is not a gun show loophole.

If someone made the statement, "Anyone can buy guns at a gun show with no background checks" would be fear mongering.

If state laws permit private gun sales between collectors without background checks, then that could happen at gun shows, kitchen tables, parking lots, fairs, flea markets, and even at churches (depending on other state laws).

Is there a church loophole? Of course not. Private sales from personal collections are explicit and intended state law and not loopholes.

[KansasVoter]

14. So why not require all sales of guns to require a back ground check?

[aikoaiko]

18. Apparently there are not many people who wish it so.

It is easy enough to mandate this through individual state laws as some states have done.

Many people on the Guns forum, like myself, have advocated for either opening NICS to the public or a notation on the state IDs that could be used in concert with NICS.

[RSillsbee]

19. Because the law would be meaningless w/out unilateral registration

which is against federal law

[aikoaiko]

26. Whoops I thought you were responding to me.

But I'll leave this up because letting the public have access to NICS information (in some way is a good idea).


Subject line: No, not meaningless at all.

Currently in my state, I am required to sell my privately owned guns to residents of GA. I ask to see proof of residency in my state. In addition, I am required to not sell a gun to anyone whom I know to otherwise be disqualified -- and I don't.

There is no check on me and yet the law is followed.

[safeinOhio]

29. It is now, but

there is nothing in the Constitution to prevent it. If it is Constitutional for background checks at stores and with FFLs, it would also be Constitutional to require it on private sales of handguns.

[aikoaiko]

38. Its unclear if the Commerce Clause would allow it as a Federal law

But you are correct it could get done at the state level.

[RSillsbee]

43. We've been here before

The majority of gun owners see registration as the first step to confiscation. It will never fly

[hack89]

28. It is a state issue

since it doesn't involve interstate commerce.

[safeinOhio]

30. If a high number of handguns

are moving from no check states to others it might be involving interstate commerce.

[hack89]

33. No - it would involve interstate crime

it is not legal for a person to buy a gun in another state without going through a FFL dealer. It is not legal for a non-FFL seller to go to another state to sell a gun to resident of that state. It is not legal for someone to go to another state to buy a gun from a non-FFL seller.

They all involve interstate commerce, which is why the federal government can regulate it. A state resident selling a legal gun to another state resident in their state does not involve interstate commerce.

[one-eyed fat man]

40. How do you figure?

It is already against Federal law to transfer a handgun out of state except to an FFL.

For example, you can not cross the bridge from Cincinnati to Covington and legally buy a handgun in a Kentucky gun store. You must show documentation showing your residency for a handgun sale, normally a driver's license.

If you buy a handgun from a private individual in Kentucky, you have still violated Federal law. If the seller knows you are from out of state, he has as well.

If a Kentucky FFL has a booth at a Cincinnati gun show, he can't deliver a gun to you. He must transfer the gun to an Ohio FFL, who then does the NICS check and, assuming you pass, delivers the gun to you.

[RSillsbee]

44. None of which prevents me

From buying a gun in Nebraska and moving to Colorado where I can legally sell my handgun to another Colorado resident.

I know you're aware of this One eye but some others may not be

[safeinOhio]

48. Just like driving 70 in a 65 zone

it is illegal, but if there is not a cop on the side of the road, everyone does it. In states with no check on private sales, in 9 out of 10 cases there is no check to see if the buyer is out of state or a wanted felon. In most states it is illegal to sell to some one you know is not legally able to buy. So, few ask and the crooks lie. In a state with background checks on private sales, the seller knows he is breaking the law and hopes the buyers is not an undercover LEO. The risks goes way up, just like driving 80 with a cop sitting on the overpass.

[one-eyed fat man]

51. So it is back on you

If you want to sell a gun, no questions asked, to the next schmuck with a fistful of dollars you can. If the only thing that keeps you from breaking the law is the likelihood of getting caught, that speaks volumes as to your personal code of ethics.

I suppose we could do like the Stasi did. In East Germany there was one informer to every seven citizens.

The MfS monitored political behavior among GDR citizens, and is known to have used torture and intimidation to mute dissent. During the Peaceful Revolution of 1989, MfS offices were overrun by enraged citizens, but not before the MfS destroyed a number of documents (approximately 5%). When the remaining files were published for review, many people learned that their friends, colleagues, spouses, and relatives had regularly filed reports with the MfS. These wounds on society have not yet entirely healed.

One of the flaws of a free society is that even if we are willing to accept outrages like the secret BushObama "No fly lists" and TSA goons groping us at every turn that there will still be people who abuse those very same freedoms to do evil. Ben Franklin's words are very apt here!

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

...as an aside:

"...everyone does it." Would you accept that answer from your underage kid you find him booze or dope?

[safeinOhio]

63. Not me, I bought a handgun at a garage sale

and took it to the Sheriffs Dept to have the numbers checked. In fact I drive the speed limit all the time, being a senior driver.

No, it's back on you. 6 states require a check on purchase of handguns and it presents no problem to a legal buyer or seller. I have done so in the last state I lived in. If every state did it, it would be fine with me. No different than buying one from a store. I see that procedure as giving up no essential liberty or freedom and adding to everyones safety and liberty.

"everyone does it", at least most drivers, except me I get passed by everyone. I have no kids to accept or reject excuses from. Man, really struck out on that post.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[one-eyed fat man]

68. Only states can make that requirement., the Feds can't force them

Congress tried something similar with the original Brady, got sued and lost.

It is illegal in all states to sell to some one you know is not legally able to buy. That is Federal law.

"In a state with background checks on private sales, the seller knows he is breaking the law and hopes the buyers is not an undercover LEO."

The same is true of the guy who sells you your dope. "Everyone does it" is still a lame excuse.

[safeinOhio]

75. My example of violating the speed limit

was not in any way offered as an excuse. It was offered as a fact. I do not drive over the speed limit and need no excuse. Perhaps the gun dealers use that excuse to sell guns to mass killers use it as an excuse or may be it is just a fact.

[one-eyed fat man]

78. Isn't that a stretch?

"Perhaps the gun dealers use that excuse to sell guns to mass killers"

Are you thinking of Viktor Anatolyevich Bout?

Or are you saying the clerk who had the misfortune last year to sell that shooter in Tuscon the gun he used somehow knew or was supposed to know he was going to shoot all those people?

....and sold it to him anyway?

Are you serious?

Are you accusing the store of failing to do the required background check?

Are you accusing the FBI of not predicting the crime and stopping the sale?

[safeinOhio]

85. Sorry, I'm not accusing anyone of anything.

You are the one making accusations about me personally. Please TRY to stick to the issues and not make arguments personal. Your straw man, claims that I made any reference to the store that sold him the gun or the FBI, are out of place. Jumping to conclusions and lack of logic are not called for in this discussion. I made no reference to the FBI or the store. I made no excuses for anyone driving over the speed limit. If you look back at my post, I only referred to the fact that people are more likely to obey speed limit laws if they think it will be enforced. That is a far cry from justifying anything, that you accuse me of, including personal attacks on me about my family.

[lawodevolution]

37. Because states will inact the 10th on it and private sales will continue to be legal within the

State

[Atypical Liberal]

62. It is possible.

Illinois does this.

In Illinois, in order to own firearms you have to have a Firearm Owner Identification, or FOID. If you sell a firearm privately, you have to request the buyer's FOID, and you have to keep a record of the transaction for some period of time. Failure to do so is a misdemeanor and punishable with a fine, as I recall.

There is incentive on the part of the seller to comply with this law, because if the buyer does not have an FOID, odds are very good they will be up to no good with that firearm, and it will be used in a crime, and, when recovered by the police, traced back to the last legitimate seller of the firearm.

The problem with Illinois FOID system is it is opt-in, which makes a registry of firearm owners. An opt-out system would avoid this.

[one-eyed fat man]

82. Kentucky has a better system.

The Kentucky State Police run every holder of a concealed weapons permit run through the FBI NICS check by every 30 days. (It does, unfortunately, cause problems for liberal arts majors.)

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-06-28/states-with-the-most-guns/?cid">Most Armed States

#1, Kentucky

Population: 4,314,113

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents (Dec. 2008 – May 2010): 134,028

Selling to someone with a Kentucky CCDW I would have some assurance that the person was both a resident of the state and not a prohibited person, a NICS check having been accomplished recently.

[Uben]

15. I own 17 firearms......

.....and I did not buy a single one of them. They were either gifts from my father, or I inherited them from him when he passed away. They are all kept in safes or locked cabinets. My dad was an avid hunter, and he had inherited some of the firearms from his dad and grandfather. Only one is a semi-automatic, a .22 rifle, the rest are either six shooters or single shots or shotguns. I haven't fired any of them (except for a shotgun)in over twenty years, and some I have never fired. Some are valuable antiques.

I had a choice to keep them or sell them. Right now, firearms are selling at a premium price. I could get thousands for them. I do not have to go to a gun show (never been to one) to sell them, I could sell them easily by word of mouth. I have had offers. I do not want to sell them because they are part of my heritage. Also, by keeping them, I know they are stored safely, and they would never be used to hurt anyone. So......

My point is, guns can be purchased easily without going thru the federal system, and criminals who want to use them for ill deeds will always have a way to get them. That is just a fact of life.

I totally understand why some people are so anti-guns. Most have probably never been around firearms and fear them. In my neck of the woods, guns are a fact of life. Young boys get their first exposure to them by their dads taking them hunting. Most are taught how to respect and use them properly. Of course, there will always be those who are irresponsible and use them irresponsibly. That too is a fact of life.

My firearms will be passed down to my nephew, since he is the only male in the next generation of my family. He is a state trooper for the state of Texas. He already owns as many as I do, so I have no fears of them being used irresponsibly.

As a gun owner of forty years, I believe every citizen of this country has the right to own them. For me, gun ownership is about being able to maintain control in case of an emergency situation. If someone breaks into your home with a firearm, they are in complete control. Your life will instantly be in the hands of a criminal. Being armed gives me a chance to maintain control of the situation. That gives me piece-of-mind.

I am not now, nor have I ever been a member of the NRA. They do not speak for me as a gun owner. They have their own agenda.

Living rurally in Texas, we are isolated from the public and somewhat vulnerable. We also have snakes and critters. I am also a trained snake hunter and handler. Although I was a hunter for several years, I no longer hunt. I don't like to kill things, I enjoy them....even rattlesnakes. Neighbors often call me to remove snakes or critters they may deem a threat. I do it without killing them if at all possible. All animals have a place in our eco-system and should be released back into the wild safely.

The vast majority of gun owners are responsible. Criminals will never be responsible and they should not be a reason to disallow the ownership of firearms.

I am fully behind any legislation that bans extended round clips and automatic weapons. No hunter needs either. Period.

[KansasVoter]

20. Good post!

[safeinOhio]

31. Your opinion represents

the majority of American gun owners.

[Uben]

35. That's what I believe, as well.

All responsible gun owners are pissed at those who abuse the right to bear arms.

[friendly_iconoclast]

88. You *believe* his opinion represents the majority of American gun owners

With all due respect, I don't think it does.

I emphasize his opinions and choices of firearms are entirely valid for himself, but he is, in fact, a minority amongst gun owners.-

and here's why:

There's absolutely nothing wronng with being a "buck and bird" gun owner- but most gun owners are not


*Most American gun owners don't hunt and never have.


*Most centerfire rifles sold in the last two decades are semiautomatic


*'Suitable for hunting' is only a valid metric for hunters- and even a lot of hunters use semiautomatic rifles where their

use is allowed. True, most all of those places have magazine limits- but again, most gun owners don't hunt and I daresay the

popularity of extended capacity magazines amongst the non-hunting majority implies that a lot of them think they're

just dandy.


In short: Elmer Keith don't hunt here anymore...

[beevul]

86. Please clarify.

"I am fully behind any legislation that bans extended round clips and automatic weapons. No hunter needs either. Period."

When you say "automatic weapons", are you referring to machineguns?

Also, Amendment 2, says nothing about hunting.

FWIW only 1 in 5 gun owners hunt.

[jeepnstein]

21. It's not a loophole.

There's nothing illegal about a private seller disposing of a firearm. It is against the law for someone to deal in arms without a license. Private sellers are not allowed to take part in NICS checks so they have no idea if the buyer is barred from ownership. I've seen guys busted for dealing without a license. If you derive any portion of your income from selling arms you need a license.

Rachel is letting her emotions get the best of her.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

25. No it is not

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

34. Yes, guns can be bought at a show with no background check. No, that is not a "loophole".

Ergo... there is no "Gunshow Loophole"

[RamboLiberal]

41. If it allows a purchaser to bypass a NICS then I call it a loophole

Just like we have "tax loopholes". Maybe the media & pols should more properly label it "private gun sale loophole".

I'd like to see any transfer of firearms have to go through NICS.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

42. If call you a jerk that doesn't make you a jerk...

If you call it a loophole that doesn't make it a loophole. (you're not a jerk, by the way :))

A loophole is an exception that allows a law to be circumvented or otherwise avoided. The default law of the land in the US, from the beginning, has always been that private citizens can exchange private goods. The NICS system was set up as part of the BATFE FFL licensing system and has always applied only to those who wish to license themselves with the ATF. Having to run an NICS check is THE EXCEPTION to the traditional method of firearm sale. There was NEVER a requirement for private citizens to report sales or run background checks so there is no law for them to have to circumvent in order to do so. That's like saying that selling your old car privately (not subject to the rules and restrictions that a licensed auto dealers are subject to) is a loophole.


The FFL (and it's restrictions) gives dealers more ability and more privileges. More privileges = more restriction. Comparing someone who voluntarily holds an FFL to a private citizen is like apples & oranges. IMO, if a private citizen were somehow able to have access to the same privileges as an FLL without any of the restrictions... THAT would be a loophole.

I agree that people should have the ability call in background checks as well.
I just don't feel calling it a loophole is correct - and in some cases is intellectually dishonest.

[RamboLiberal]

66. I still call it a loophole

A loophole is a weakness or exception that allows a system, such as a law or security, to be circumvented or otherwise avoided. Loopholes are searched for and used strategically in a variety of circumstances, including taxes, elections, politics, the criminal justice system, or in breaches of security.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loophole

IMHO then it can be a breach of security or the criminal justice system that the person obtaining the gun is not lawfully allowed to own the gun. There are cetainly other private transactions that are not allowed by law because the goods in the transaction may be unlawful or may be a danger or security breach without proper procedures being followed. For instance I wouldn't be allowed to legally sell you my prescription oxycontin. (and no I'm not taking oxycontin).

[ManiacJoe]

87. OK, now you understand what a loophole is.

Based on your new knowledge, you will see that private sales do not meet that definition because private sales were purposely and explicitly excepted from the background checks, not by error or omission.

[slackmaster]

50. It depends on what state the show is in, local laws, and the rules of the particular show

The Crossroads of the West show operates in several states including California and Arizona. California state law requires background checks on all sales; direct sales of used guns by non-licensees is prohibited.

The show's rules require that all sales of firearms be done by licensed dealers, so if you buy a gun at Crossroads of the West in Phoenix, you will have to get a background check.

You can't expect to be able to go to any old gun show anywhere and buy a gun from a private seller without getting your background checked.

[ileus]

58. Most states allow private sales...gunshow or not.

http://www.opencarry.org/privatetransfers.html

Here's a good link.

[Atypical Liberal]

59. Buying firearms at a gun show.

Here is the real deal:

Anyone in the business of selling firearms must have a Federal Firearms License (FFL). Anyone who buys a firearm from an FFL dealer must undergo a background check throuh NICS.

Private citizens, however, can sell to other private citizens without a license, and the buyer does not need to undergo a background check.

At all of the gun shows I have been to, most of the tables and booths are rented out by actual FFL dealers. If you buy from them, it is just like you went into their store. You have to have a background check.

However, private citizens can also rent tables and booths at gun shows. For example, if you had a few firearms you wanted to sell privately, you could rent a table and try to sell them at a gun show. You can also just wander around the slow with a rifle slung over your shoulder with a little flag-sign sticking out of the barrel that says, "For Sale - $200 OBO". I have seen this myself.

In most places, private sales at gun shows do not require background checks any more than private sales at my kitchen table.

[table1]

72. i believe that you can only sell a limited number of guns a year

without a dealers license

[pipoman]

76. Not true

You can't buy and sell guns, be engaged in the business of selling firearms, without a ffl. You can sell your personal guns. If you, for instance, have been collecting guns for a number of years and have 100 guns, you can sell them all without a license.

[one-eyed fat man]

77. There is no set number

A person who does not have a Federal Firearms License may not be in the business of buying or selling firearms. Individuals buying and selling firearms without a federal license must be doing so from their own personal collection.

Engaged in the Business (Firearms) Law & Legal Definition

(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(A) <18 USCS § 921(a)(11)(A)>, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;

If a person sells a large number of guns that might make it easier to prove. Even if a seller loses money "through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms" he could still be considered "in the business" there is no requirement he be good at it.

Some states have laws defining someone as a dealer for the singular purpose of collecting taxes. For example, one state defines a car dealer as:

"A person who sells three or more motor vehicles in any period of 12 months is required to hold a seller’s permit."

Dealers are required to collect, and more importantly pay, the sales taxes on the car they sell where an occasional sale is exempt. They just pick a number to make it easier to enforce.

That practice is pretty common but does not apply to guns under Federal law.

[old mark]

70. Simply put, no...there is no such thing...nt

[Euromutt]

79. Depends whether the seller is a licensed dealer or a private seller

A Type 01 Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL, in other words a licensed dealer) must conduct a background on every sale of a firearm, whether it's in his own storefront or at a gun show. The majority of sellers of firearms at gun shows are FFLs.

If the law of the state in question does not restrict sales between private parties, then one private individual can sell (or otherwise transfer) a firearm to another without having to run a background check. Indeed, since the NICS is not accessible to private citizens (only to Type 01 FFLs), it is impossible to do so. This applies at gun shows, but it also applies to any private party transfer, which is why the term "gun show loophole" is so misleading.

Note that it is still generally illegal for the seller to sell the firearm "across state lines" i.e. to a resident of another state or to knowingly sell it to a person who is otherwise legally prohibited from buying it.

[russ1943]

80. Q & A

Can anyone buy guns at a gun show with no background check?

The honest, simple answer to your question is, YES.

[DissedByBush]

81. Why don't they call it the "flea market loophole"?

Or the "swap meet loophole"?

Or the "classified ad loophole"?

Or the "garage sale loophole"?

Because they don't sound as evil as "gun show loophole."

The operative action in all of the above are private sales between individuals. Only the location differs.

But licensed dealers at gun shows, pretty much the only ones selling new guns, are required to perform background checks.

[krispos42]

83. Let me fix that question for you

Can anyone buy guns at a gun show with no background check?

Yes. You can privately buy a gun from another person without having to go through a federal background check, provided the seller and buyer live in the same state.

The geographical location is irrelevant. You can buy a gun without a background check at the following locations:

A parking lot
A front or back yard
A kitchen
A living room
A Burger King
Your bedroom
You're cousin Bill's fishing boat on the lake
At the beach under the boardwalk
At a gun show.


...providing, of course, the buyer and seller are private citizens of the same state.


The fact that "at a gun show" is in the question falsely implies that the location is somehow special. It's not.

A gun show is a temporary mall. A gun show doesn't sell anything except retail table space, the same way that the Mall of America doesn't sell anything except retail square footage. It is the responsibility of the retailer in the mall to follow the law. The Mall of America doesn't collect sales tax when Macy's sells a bottle of cologne, nor is the Mall of America responsible when a customer finds a deep-fried roach with his chicken nuggets in the food court.

If the person that rents the table is an FFL, then every single person that buys a gun from him must have a NICS check done. IF the person that rents the table is just a regular private person looking to get rid of a couple of extra rifles, then no, he doesn't have to (and in fact is denied access to) the NICS system.



So, yeah, you might be able to find somebody at a gun show privately selling guns. Or you might be able to find somebody on gunbroker.com. Or in the local classifieds. Or at a yard sale. Or an estate auction.



I hope this helps.