What gun control or regulations do you favor?

[Still a Democrat]

Given a clean slate, what gun control or regulations would you favor?

[Drale]

1. Personally if I could choose?

I would say no guns what so ever for anyone. If you want to fight, you get a sword, the other person gets a sword, and you fight. If you don't have the balls, you don't really want to fight. But thats never going to happen.

[brewens]

2. Imagine the thrill of bear hunting with a sword! I'd watch Uncle Ted do that! n/t

[Drale]

4. There would still be archery

you could hunt with a bow and arrow. But I think my major point is, if the these "we came unarmed this time" people had to do their violence up close with a sword, I think they would think twice.

[teabaghater]

22. Archery is terribly

brutal. Last year during Bow season here a herd of elk were trapped in a field and couldn't get out. The hunters slaughtered them. It was horrible, made the worldwide news. http://www.king5.com/news/local/Bow-hunters-shoot-elk-in-Wash-pasture-80308087.html

[YllwFvr]

42. then our government must also be disarmed right?

at least down to swords and bows.

[PavePusher]

16. Discriminatory to the handicapped, the smaller and weaker...

the aged....

What other crap you got?

[pipoman]

37. Meet the victims of your fantasy:

now meet the perpetrators of your fantasy:



Now who would win your sword fight. A defensive gun equalizes the playing field. In places like the UK which have taken this option away from the weak in society, the weak have became the prey for the strong.

[dionysus]

3. gun control is a good intentioned thing, but a poison pill, in that....

thugs doing driveby shootings and robberies dont get their guns from a store

[wtmusic]

5. We can learn from the Japanese.

"II. Gun Possession and Gun Crime: Almost Nil

The only type of firearm which a Japanese citizen may even contemplate acquiring is a shotgun.<5> Sportsmen are permitted to possess shotguns for hunting and for skeet and trap (p.27)shooting, but only after submitting to a lengthy licensing procedure.<6> Without a license, a person may not even hold a gun in his or her hands.

The licensing procedure is rigorous. A prospective gun owner must first attend classes and pass a written test.<7> Shooting range classes and a shooting test follow; 95 per cent pass.<8> After the safety exam, the applicant takes a simple 'mental test' at a local hospital, to ensure that the applicant is not suffering from a readily detectable mental illness. The applicant then produces for the police a medical certificate attesting that he or she is mentally healthy and not addicted to drugs.<9>

The police investigate the applicant's background and relatives, ensuring that both are crime free. Membership in 'aggressive' political or activist groups disqualifies an applicant.<10> The police have unlimited discretion to deny licenses to any person for whom 'there is reasonable cause to suspect may be dangerous to other persons' lives or properties or to the public peace'.<11>

Gun owners are required to store their weapons in a locker, and give the police a map of the apartment showing the location of the locker. Ammunition must be kept in a separate locked safe. The licenses also allow the holder to buy a few thousand rounds of ammunition, with each transaction being registered.<12>

Civilians may also apply for licenses to possess air rifles--low-power guns that are powered by carbon dioxide rather than by gunpowder.

Civilians can never own handguns. Small calibre rifles were once legal, but in 1971, the Government forbade all transfers of rifles. Current rifle license holders may continue to own them, but their heirs must turn them into the police when the license-holder dies.<13> Total remaining rifle licenses are 27,000.<14> Even shotguns and air rifles, the two legal types of firearm, are becoming rarer and rarer, as few people find it worthwhile to pass through a burdensome gun licensing process. The number of licensed shotguns and air rifles declined from 652,000 in 1981 to 493,373 in 1989.<15>

<>

Tokyo is the safest major city in the world. Only 59,000 licensed gun owners live in Tokyo.<25> Per one million inhabitants, Tokyo has 40 reported muggings a year; New York has 11,000.<26> The handgun murder rate is at least 200 times higher in America than Japan.<27> The official homicide rate in Japan in 1988 was 1.2 homicide cases per 100,000 population, while in America it was 8.4 homocide cases per 100,000.

Robbery is almost as rare as murder. Indeed, armed robbery and murder are both so rare that they usually make the national news, regardless of where they occur.<29> Japan's robbery rate is 1.4 per 100,000 inhabitants. The reported American rate is 220.9.<30> People walk anywhere in Japan at night, and carry large sums of cash.<31>

http://www.guncite.com/journals/dkjgc.html

[northoftheborder]

12. sounds good to me

[Straw Man]

18. Sounds good?

Even this part?

Membership in 'aggressive' political or activist groups disqualifies an applicant.

Given that for most of its postwar history (until 2009, actually), the right-wing conservative LDP had a firm grip on the reins of power in Japan, who do you think those "aggessive" or "activist" groups were?

[wtmusic]

20. OK, take out that part. Any other objections? nt

[Straw Man]

24. Many.

Such as the total ban on handgun and rifle possession, for starters. But Japan has a long history of denying any sort of weapons possession to its citizens, dating back to the days when only the nobility could possess swords, and possession of a weapon by a commoner was a capital offense. This is not a tradition I wish to emulate.

I lived in Japan for many years. It is in many respects a wonderful country, but the fact is that it is a police state. The government is absolutely corrupt (at least until very recently), and the police operate in an unholy alliance with the yakuza and a fringe of extreme right-wing groups that make the Tea Party look like the Girl Scouts.

Very little street crime, true. It's like an old piece of New York City wisdom: There are very few muggings in Mafia neighborhoods.

No thanks--don't want those lessons.

[wtmusic]

26. Fair enough.

I believe there's a compromise between a police state and one in which inner city neighborhoods are war zones. The victims of this violence have little representation in American politics and the media, but that doesn't mean the kind of violence and heartbreak which made front-page news in Tucson doesn't occur on a daily basis.

I'd like to see handguns much harder to get, period. Law-abiding people who wanted them could get them, and would. People who wanted to turn the 7-Eleven down the block would be able to get them, but it would be harder.

[teabaghater]

29. It used to be against

the law(60's), to talk or be in an organization planning or suggesting the overthrow of the government. Sedition. Back to the 2nd amendment, arming against a tyrannical government should also = sedition. Militia's also. When in the service I saw 100's of organization's on the FBI's list of treasonous groups. Back then they were leftist, but now that they're conservatives it must be OK.

[Straw Man]

14. Learning from the Japanese.

You skipped this part:

After the arrest, a suspect may be detained without bail for up to 28 days before the prosecutor brings the suspect before a judge.<42> Even after the 28 day period is completed, detention in a Japanese police station may continue on a variety of pretexts, such as preventing the defendant from destroying evidence. Rearrest on another charge, bekken taihö, is a common police tactic for starting the suspect on another 28 day interrogation process. 'Rearrest' may (p.30)occur while the suspect is still being held at the police station on the first charge. Some defendants may be held for several months without ever being brought before a judge.<43> Courts approve 99.5 per cent of prosecutors' requests for detentions.<44>

Criminal defense lawyers are the only people allowed to visit a suspect in custody, and those meetings are strictly limited. In the months while a suspect is held prisoner, the defense counsel may see his or her client for one to five meetings lasting about 15 minutes each. Even that access will be denied if it hampers the police investigation. While under detention, suspects can be interrogated 12 hours a day, allowed to bathe only every fifth day, and may be prohibited from standing up, lying down, or leaning against the wall of their jail cells.<45> Amnesty International calls the Japanese police custody system a 'flagrant violation of United Nations human rights principles'.<46>

The confession rate is 95 per cent.<47> As a Tokyo police sergeant observes, 'It is no use to protest against power'.<48> Suspects are not allowed to read confessions before they sign them, and suspects commonly complain that their confession was altered after signature. The police use confession as their main investigative technique, and when that fails, they can become frustrated and angry. The Tokyo Bar Association states that the police routinely 'engage in torture or illegal treatment'. The Tokyo Bar is particularly critical of the judiciary for its near-total disinterest in coercion during the confession process. 'Even in cases where suspects claimed to have been tortured and their bodies bore physical traces to back their claims, courts have still accepted their confessions'.<49>

http://www.guncite.com/journals/dkjgc.html

[wtmusic]

15. Relates to due process, not gun ownership. nt

[Straw Man]

21. And just might have some impact on those low crime rates. nt

[wtmusic]

23. Yes, it might. The weather in Japan may also impact them.

Let's give it a try without all red herrings, and see what happens.

[Straw Man]

25. Let's see...

What might realistically have more of an impact on crime rates?

a) the weather
b) a red herring
c) a police state

Oh, I see: you were kidding.

Japanese gun control is part and parcel of a police-state mentality. The Japanese people are used to it, but it would never be acceptable to the majority of Americans, and rightly so. It would take the apparatus of a police state to apply it here, and no one wants that. Well, almost no one.

[Euromutt]

35. We can learn how to be obedient drones, sure

Japanese gun control measures work to no small extent because Japanese culture espouses a belief that society is superior to the individual, and government reflects the needs and desires of society.

To put it more bluntly, Japan has extremely little gun crime because it's a police state (if not officially, at least in practice), populated by drones who have been brain-washed for generations to believe that society in general, and the state in particular, knows best. The fact that mass/spree killings are extremely rare in Japan, whereas suicides are very common, can be attributed to the fact that, when the individual and society are at odds, cultural conditioning dictates that the individual must be at fault, and therefore the obvious resolution to the problem is for the individual to kill him- or herself.

A nasty semi-public secret, however, is that instances where an adult member of the family kills several members of the family prior to committing suicide, all the dead are counted as suicides. Let me go over that again:

In the United States, if a man shoots his wife and their two children before shooting himself, it's counted as 3 murders, 1 suicide.
In Japan, if a woman murders her mother-in-law (who almost certainly had it coming), slits the throats of her two kids, and then commits suicide, it's counted as 4 suicides.

That's a very large part of why the Japanese homicide rate is so law, while the Japanese suicide rate is so high. Muri-shinju ("forced suicides," i.e. murder-suicides by western standards) occur every day).

We have nothing to learn from the Japanese. Their economy has been in the crapper for over twenty years, their notion of civil liberties is next to non-existent, their police and public prosecutors are too incompetent to build a criminal case without beating a confession out of a suspect (as a result of which, any yakuza who can stand up to police beatings goes free), most Japanese aren't even aware that their country has the death penalty (because executions are, for all practical purposes, carried out in secret; by hanging, which most Japanese don't even know is the method), and Kunio Hatoyama, while minister of justice (before rising to prime minister) stated that the notion of presumption of innocence in criminal cases was "an idea which I want to constrain."

Sure, we could have very little violent crime if we all accede to live in a police state, like the Japanese do. But for some reason, I'm not too keen on the idea.

Edited due to messed-up tags.

[ZombieHorde]

44. What makes Japan a police state? Do you consider the US to be a police state? nt

[Straw Man]

45. This, for a start.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=361229&mesg_id=361265

[Euromutt]

48. The amount of power accorded the police, both officially and unofficially

For starters, Japanese police have pretty wide powers of search and seizure (much wider than those permitted under Terry v. Ohio in the U.S.), and even in the (unlikely) event that a search is ruled illegal, that does not render the evidence seized inadmissible.

After being arrested, a criminal suspect can be held by police for 48 hours without being able to see a lawyer or indeed having any contact with the outside world. After the 48 hours are up, the public prosecutor can order him held for another 24 hours. After that, the prosecutor can ask a judge for permission to hold him for another ten days, and another ten days after that. That's 23 days before even being formally charged with an offense. There have been cases of suspects being held for over 400 days (during which they were subjected to 700 hours of interrogation) before even being brought to trial.

During that time, the suspect can be interrogated at any time, for just about any length of time, without a lawyer present and without the interrogation being recorded. Criminal defendants have frequently been found to bear the marks of beatings, and a suspiciously high number of detainees suffer fatal "accidents" while in custody (not unlike the way suspects used to "slip in the shower" with remarkable frequency at John Vorster square police station in Johannesburg during the Apartheid era). Ultimately, 95% of suspects arrested sign a confession, including those who are later exonerated. Essentially, the cops try to sweat--and if that fails, beat and torture--a confession out of every suspect, and everybody knows it.

Both the prosecution service and notionally independent judiciary have zero interest in curtailing this practice, because it works in their interest; prosecutors build their careers on securing convictions (and losing even one case, but definitely two cases, can trash his career), while judges make promotion based on the speed with which their clear their caseloads. It is therefore actively in their interest to turn a blind eye when police make it possible to convict a defendant by beating a confession out of him. Furthermore, prosecutors are not obliged to disclose evidence they choose not to use, including exculpatory evidence.

The best way to avoid criminal prosecution, and thus conviction, in Japan is if you're able to resist the beatings and not confess. The judiciary places a high degree of importance on the defendant's confession, so prosecutors are extremely reluctant to go to trial without a signed confession. The perverse thing is that the people best able to resist police beatings are professional criminals, such as members of the yakuza.

All these practices run directly counter to Articles 34 and 38 of the Japanese constitution (http://www.servat.unibe.ch/icl/ja00000_.html), but nobody in a position to do anything about it cares.

[shadowrider]

38. A more sensible way would be to compare homicide rate per 100,000

but that can't be done with the Japanese since they count homicides as suicides in most cases.

So no, we have nothing to learn from the Japanese.

[Still a Democrat]

41. Actually, I thought civilians couldn't own any guns in Japan

Good information and overall much better than what we have here.

[brewens]

6. I'm actually exploiting the gunbaggers. My g/f is selling t-shirts at a gun show.

It started out as a mobile clothing vendor business. Custom t-shirts, hats, flags and other stuff. She was mainly planning on biker rallies and any other events that she could get into. I masterminded the gun show angle.
She's at one this weekend and the gunbaggers are out in force. She doesn't have any of the real notorious designs. I asked after last weekend and we don't sell the "We Came Unarmed This Time" or a few others. I don't really control what she orders in so I had to ask.
I probably stand to profit a little out of a good gun control stink.

[OrangeGrapes]

7. The only gun control I like

is responsible use and hitting the intended target.

And, in earnest response to Drale: if I were attacked, I would prefer a gun to a sword, especially considering that a potential assailant might have a gun likely obtained through illicit means that disregard any and all 'gun control' or laws. The only people gun laws affect are those upstanding citizens who wish to defend against crime; criminals would not be affected, that's why they're criminals in the first place.

[RSillsbee]

8. If you took every gun off the streets of America

You would still have a crime problem. If you took every criminal off the streets of America you would not have a gun problem.

How about we start by overhauling the justice system? Start w/ realistic sentencing for violent offenders and quit playing 7 strikes and then you're out (for 5 years , unless you plea it down)?

Then we can end the war on (some)drugs and use all that extra prison space that we're using warehousing pot heads and put the real bad guys there.

Then we can start working on better mental health care

Start there and then we can look at gun laws

[wtmusic]

11. Specifically what do you have in mind for "better mental health care"? nt

[RSillsbee]

28. Well since I'm running the show

( I'm this little fantasy exercise) I'd admit that I'm not qualified to give a good answer to that question and hire someone who is to answer it.

But I'd start by taking our kids off all these anti depressants

[X_Digger]

9. I'd stick with USC 922- the 'prohibited persons'

It strictly defines those whose rights can be violated, under what legal circumstances, with due process.

[EC]

10. Chris Rock's solution

expensive bullets...he said $5000. each, but I think even $100. each could do it..

[Euromutt]

39. Good; that way, only the rich can afford to shoot people

Why don't we just cut to the chase and take it as read that they had good reason to shoot (otherwise, why would they spend the money?) and that the deceased had it coming?

Oh, and of course, those with international contacts experienced at bringing contraband into the country--i.e. drug dealers--would be able to acquire ammunition at comparatively reasonable prices.

Excellent, you've just ensured that only the crooks will have the ability to shoot people. Are you a very close friend of Vlad Putin's?

[YllwFvr]

43. that way only the rich can use the 2a nt

[elfin]

13. Assault weapons ban

Then add no ammo sold anywhere for them for those who are stockpiling now.

No open or concealed carry outside the home b y non-law enforcement, with exceptions for deer hunting season and rifles.

Heavy penalties for carrying outside the home by non law enforcement.

Immediate placement on no-buy lists by mental health professionals for disturbed patients with proviso that this may be rescinded by same professionals.

The second amendment was written for a reason -- protection against a non-elected dictatorship or monarchy. The context of the times (always informative) was that the 'rule of law" was not thoroughly implemented with law enforcement beholden to elected local governments ala the "wild west."

Law abiding citizens can always buy rifles for hunting and handguns to protect their homes. No real need for others IMO.

[PavePusher]

19. So, no-one needs protection outside the home?

Logic FAIL.

[beevul]

27. Draconian.

"Assault weapons ban"

Yeah, because civilian semi-automatic weapons are somehow much worse if they look scary.

"Then add no ammo sold anywhere for them for those who are stockpiling now."

So called assault weapons come in just about every available caliber nowdays. Congratulations, you just outlawed nearly every centerfire rifle caliber ammunition from being sold, including hunting calibers.

Any politicians foolish enough to pass such a thing through congress and president foolish enough to sign it, would at the very least destroy their political party.

And more likely start civil unrest the likes of which this country has never seen. Ever.

"The second amendment was written for a reason -- protection against a non-elected dictatorship or monarchy. The context of the times (always informative) was that the 'rule of law" was not thoroughly implemented with law enforcement beholden to elected local governments ala the "wild west.""

The second amendment is a restriction on government power, it tells the government what it shall not do. No more no less.

[RamboLiberal]

17. No additional rules except to make private sales have to go through NICS

Besides that IMHO there are already enough laws on the books.

Too many liberals think they can legislate away public danger from guns.

[TexasProgresive]

30. No one can own a fire arm unless

They go through the same orientation I was given by my uncle when I was eleven. I'll volunteer to train the trainers. This is for long arms. Pistol ownership will require much deeper and broader training including psychological evaluation. Since the primary use of a pistol is to kill another human. It may be used otherwise but there you go.

[shadowrider]

31. Voting should require psychological evaluation too

Don't want anyone voting if they don't know who their congressman or Senator is. Don't want them voting if they can't pass a basic civics test.

See how that works for other rights?

It's either all rights, or none. Take your pick.

[TexasProgresive]

32. Fine by me as long as I get the PASS/FAIL rubber stamp. n/t

[shadowrider]

33. Sure you are. Until it happens n/t

[Euromutt]

40. Let's say you don't get to wield the stamp

Instead, some twat who's hated you since Junior High gets to wield the stamp, both to approve your right to vote and your right to keep and bear arms.

Still think it's a good idea?

[spin]

46. The primary use of a pistol is as a defensive or sporting arm ...

the velocity of the rounds fired from pistols make them a mediocre weapon for killing.

A shotgun, especially a 12 gauge firing 00 buck, is a MUCH more lethal weapon as is a hunting rifle designed for hunting deer or larger game.

Handgun vs. rifle killing power

Q: Iam very new to rifles, but I did notice that most rifle bullets in defensive and military rifles, such as the 55 grain .223, are small compared to most handguns bullets, although they do have twice the velocity. Velocity vs. bullet weight is always debated among handgunners, but I don't know if you can really compare rifle and handguns cartridges.

Rifles have an advantage in range over handguns, but I was wondering how some of the smaller calibers (such as the .223) compare in defensive stopping power to typical handgun cartridges (9 mm Luger, .45 ACP) at very close range (such as 5 yards). If the rifle (even the .223) has more destructive power at close range, why?

A: Handgun killing power is greatly over rated by those with little understanding of ballistics. With appropriate bullets a rifle cartridge, even the wimpy .223 (which is a varmint round, not a big game caliber), is far more effective and deadly than a handgun. The rifle bullet is generally superior in kinetic energy and sectional density and this translates to a quantum improvement in stopping power.

Velocity vs. bullet weight may be a favorite topic of discussion among handgunners, but the differences are usually relatively small (.45 ACP/230 grain at 987 fps vs. .357 Mag/158 grain at 1235 fps), as is the difference in kinetic energy (391 ft. lbs vs. 535 ft. lbs.). This allows the big bullet crowd to cloud the issue with antecedental and theoretical "evidence." On the other hand, the energy difference between a .45 ACP pistol and a .223/55 grain rifle bullet (3240 fps, 1282 ft. lbs.) are huge. Even greater is the difference between a handgun and a big game cartridge such as the .308 Winchester (180 grains at 2620 fps and 2743 ft. lbs.). Compare handgun killing power with rifles, at any range, and it is just no contest.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/guns_faq2.htm

[shadowrider]

34. It should be a gun control regulation

That you put 6 of 10 in the bullseye at 15 feet.

[Euromutt]

36. Given a CLEAN slate...

... I would favor licensing for prospective gun owners. My attitude is that you can either trust a person with a firearm or you can't, and the specific type of firearm is irrelevant to that question.

However, "given a clean slate," I would want strong safeguards built in to prevent any anti-gunner sheriff or politically appointed police chief from hampering private citizens from acquiring the license. I'd also favor expanded powers on the part of mental health professionals to advise an individual not be allowed to possess firearms, provided there was an appeals process.

Not to put too fine a point on it, the stuff I favor would cost money, probably meaning increased taxes. This will not be paid for by taxing gun owners; it will be paid for by taxing all the supposed beneficiaries of the increased public safety (i.e. everybody). Deal with it.

[Endangered Specie]

47. nationwide shall issue ccw licensing

remove import bans
keep the background checks except for non-semi auto rifles and break action shotguns
keep 1934 nfa but remove the $200 tax and interstate notification requirement.