My current carry sidearm is a 50s vintage 1911a1,

[MineralMan]

rebuilt and accurized. I cannot envision a defensive situation where I would need more rounds than its standard 7-round magazine holds. Can you describe such a situation, so I can understand why a high-capacity magazine has any practical use? Note: I do not carry with a round in the chamber, either.

My other firearms have fixed magazines, and I do not remember any situation where I emptied those fixed magazines while using the firearms. Generally, I refill the magazine after firing rounds from it when hunting, and reload when they are empty when firing at targets.

One is a deer rifle, with a Springfield action. Only once have I fired two rounds during a hunt. Every other deer I've taken was down with a single shot. The other is a 12 ga. pump shotgun I keep for home defense and for occasional duck hunting. The magazine plug is out of it, and I feel quite confident that the five shells in that magazine will be more than adequate for home defense. When hunting, the plug goes back in. I do not keep a shell in the chamber at home, for safety reasons.

I just don't see the utility of high capacity magazines for civilian use. If you know of a reason for them, let me know. If you're convincing, I'll buy a new sidearm and a high-capacity magazine for it. Otherwise, I'll struggle along with what I have, which I think is completely adequate.

[shadowrider]

1. No thanks. Any post that wants me to justify to THEM why I

"need" something means no argument will be good enough.

I don't "need" to ask your permission to grant my "needs". If I want it, I'll get it. No permission required.

[MineralMan]

3. I'm not asking you to justify anything. I'm asking for reasons

why I should buy a pistol with a high-capacity magazine. If you have no such reasons, then you needn't answer my question. What you do is your decision, not mine.

I asked why I might need higher capacity. You're talking about you. What you do is not the issue.

[shadowrider]

5. ok fair enough

If you know for a fact you can pull your weapon, aim it at the bad guy, have your heart rate skyrocket, blood pressure go through the roof, put up with sweating, nervousness and everything else, AND hit the (probably) moving target center mass with 3/4 rounds AND be sure the perp falls, then police departments all over the country want to talk to you.

Me? If I have to use it, I want as many rounds as I can get.

[MineralMan]

12. Yes, I do know that for a fact, thanks.

I'm an excellent shot, and actually calm down in emergency situations. Fortunately, none of those situations have required defending myself with a firearm, but I'm quite confident. At any range where I might use a handgun for defense, I'd have no problem at all. Beyond that range, I have another very effective response plan, which can be described as to di di mau!. I've used that one to good effect a couple of times.

[SlimJimmy]

43. And your weapon (.45 acp) is single action on the first round,

correct? How quickly are you going to be able to respond to a threat if you have to "jack" a round in the chamber first? That is just counter-intuitive. As far as your response plan is concerned, unless you can run 1000 fps, I don't think it's a good one.

[MineralMan]

92. Everyone has his or her own defensive plan. Frankly, I rarely carry,

since my habits don't lead me to particularly dangerous places very often.

[spin]

83. I somehow doubt that you are as good as you think you are ...

mainly because you carry your 1911 in Condition Three rather than Condition One (A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety on).

I could be wrong but you sound like a target shooter. If you are try this:

Find a range with a motorized target system. Set the target at 21 feet and start it returning to your shooting booth. Draw your firearm from concealment and see how many rounds you can place into the center of the target before it reaches you. If you use a two handed grip, try the exercise again using just your strong hand and again with your off hand. Drawing with your off hand may not be possible, so just lay the firearm on the table. Finally set the target at 45 feet and bring it back as you shoot. Try to fire all the rounds in your first magazine, reload and fire some rounds from the second before the target reaches you.

The range I used to practice at did not allow civilians to draw from a holster, so I would lay the handgun on the table in front of me and exercise the drill.

If you can do this with no problem than good for you. If so you are not like the target shooters I've known who would brag about how they could easily shoot someone at 21 feet as they could consistently hit the 10 ring at 75 feet. Their bragging often stopped when they tried the above drill and found they often missed the target entirely with their first shot.

Everybody has different preferences. I have small hands so the hi-cap magazines that hold 15 and more rounds make the pistol grip so large that I have to slightly cant the pistol in my hand for my finger to reach the trigger. Therefore I prefer pistols that use a single stack magazine or small or medium frame revolvers for defensive shooting.

So I don't own any pistols that have a magazine that holds more than 10 rounds. I own a Ruger .22 target pistol and a S&W Model 41 .22 caliber target pistol that have 10 round magazines. Of course, they are not my self defense weapons. My most common carry revolver is a snub nosed S&W Model 642 .38. I do carry one or two speed loaders.

But while I personally don't carry a firearm with a hi-cap magazine, I don't criticize those that do. Nor do I feel that a ban on such magazines would help cut the death toll in a mass murder such as the recent one in Arizona. With a reasonable amount of practice an individual can swap magazines in one or two seconds. An individual planning a mass murder could easily carry multiple weapons. If such a person feels that he has to have a hi-cap or extended magazine to commit his insanity, he has been watching way too many movies.

edited for the hell of it

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

88. Here's an easier suggestion...

Find an IDPA or USPSA target competition near you and participate. It's only about $10... bring 75-100 rounds, 4 mags, and a holster. Compete with the same restrictions you carry your firearm with (unloaded chamber & 7 round magazines).

Shooting at a range is NOTHING like shooting on the move or shooting at moving targets - especially when you are being timed.

[spin]

96. That's a damn good suggestion. (n/t)

[SlimJimmy]

125. Or when you have just woke up from a sound sleep, or are out of breath from running.

Shooting at a range is NOTHING like shooting on the move or shooting at moving targets - especially when you are being timed.

[MineralMan]

93. Thanks for your advice. When I last did that, I placed 6 out of seven

in the central area of the target. Your doubts are misplaced.

[spin]

95. Well if true, I was wrong ...

still, why do you carry your .45 with an empty chamber?

[MineralMan]

98. Because that's my choice.

I consider it vanishingly likely that I'll ever have to use it, and carry only on very rare occasions, such as attending functions at night in questionable neighborhoods. My wife and I rarely do that, so I don't carry very often. I can draw and chamber a round in less than 2 seconds, so I'm not all that concerned about the delay time.

The occasion will almost certainly never happen in my lifetime. Budget concerns keep us home most evenings these days, anyhow, and the .45 is not my home defense weapon of choice.

[spin]

115. Perhaps that's why some people like hi-cap magazines ...

When you carry your 1911, you carry it without a round in the chamber. I would carry mine "cocked and locked" as it was designed to be carried. Our opinions differ, but they are both valid choices.

We see no real reason to own such a hi-cap magazine. Others do. It's their choice. I carry a revolver that holds 5 rounds, you carry a pistol with 7 rounds.

You feel that you can draw and chamber a round in two seconds in your 1911. That may be true if you have the use of both hands, however if you are jumped at close range and the attacker jams you, you may lose that option. You will probably tell me that you have mastered loading your .45 one handed using the holster.

I don't have to worry about any of that bullshit. In case I am jumped and face an mugger at extremely close range, I just grab my snub nosed revolver, jam it in the attacker's stomach and pull the trigger. That's why the snub nosed revolver is often called a "belly gun". I don't have to chamber a round, drop a safety or even worry about the weapon being pushed out of battery. If I happen to be carrying it in a jacket pocket, I can shoot right through the pocket and it will continue to fire its 5 rounds without jamming. (The S&W model 642 has an internal hammer.)


S&W Model 642

Different people make different choices for different reasons.

The bottom line is we can focus all we want on the issues of hi-cap magazines and even if they are banned and confiscated, nothing important will have been accomplished. In fact, a shooter in a mass murder might slow down some and take time to aim plus the firearm is less likely to jam than with a hi-cap magazine. More people might end up dead because of a misguided effort to ban such magazines.

Before I waste a lot of time and effort trying to accomplish something, I want to be certain that it will work to solve the problem I desire to overcome.

[Flyboy_451]

111. nobody KNOWS how they will perform until the time comes.

The best any of us can do is try to prepare as best we can, but until the fertilizer strike the ventilator, all you can is guess about how you will perform.

I will use myself as an example. I served 5 yrs as an unconventional warfare specialist from 91-96. In that time I spent almost three years deployed for combat duties and have been in more than my fair share of fire fights. After separating from the military, I came home and went to work in law enforcement, where I have served for the past 14 yrs. In those 14 years I have served as a patrol officer and a member of our SWAT unit. I am currently a field training officer and a firearms instructor for this same department. To say that I am familiar with the use of a firearm under stress is probably somewhat of an understatement. To give some idea of my level of proficiency, I regularly compete in USPSA three gun matches as an "A class" shooter that occasionally shoots "Master Class" scores. I have a 100yd range on my property and shoot nearly every day, totaling about 1000 rounds per week.

What all this has taught me is that your ability with a firearm, when engaged in a life or death situation, will not be anywhere close to your abilities on the range with no threats. My skills probably out class the vast majority of firearms owners, and I do not score 100% in real life. Trust me, it is unlikely that you will either. Fighting for your life, or that of a loved one is a dynamic and fluid situation, that you cannot make accurate predictions about. There are simply too many things that can influence any given scenario. All we can do is take what measures are available to us to be prepared, and hope that the day never comes that we are put to the test. Those of us who have been there cannot even predict performance in a given event. All I can say is that I have been prepared and will act according to training and experience. It is this combination that gives me an advantage. Not the training and practice alone.

Jw

[spin]

116. A very accurate post. Right on the target. (n/t)

[Union Scribe]

136. Lol.

[bossy22]

18. very true

and thats why we give police magazines that can carry 12-17 rounds; not so they can kill lots of people. its a misconception that cops need these mags to take on many perps- if a cop sees 5 gang members carrying machine guns- he probably is going to take cover and call for SWAT- not engage them since doing so would be suicidal and could harm innocent by standers. Most cop defensive gun use are 1 on 1 or even 2 or 3 on 1 in favor of the police. So here is my question; why are cops allowed to have mags between 12-17 rounds and they have backup, but civilians who are usually alone and dont have backup coming only allowed 10 rounds?

[flamin lib]

28. 'Cause for the most part that's what the factory supplies. nt

[bossy22]

29. that is true

the factory also supplies the ame to the civilian market

[YllwFvr]

73. see post 72

[RSillsbee]

37. You forgot he also has to chamber a round

and hope to God his 1911 doesn't pick that moment to have a FTF

[MineralMan]

99. Oh, it won't. It never has in the past, and it never will in the future.

Thanks for your concern, though.

[spin]

117. Never say never with a 1911 .45 ...

especially if you don't use FMJ round nosed bullets.

Murphy's law "Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong".

MacGillicuddy's Corollary: "At the most inopportune time."

McGillicuddy Law "Murphy was an optimist"

[FreakinDJ]

2. I couldn't agree more - and I'm an avid sportsman

[MineralMan]

4. Well, for sporting purposes, I certainly can't find any reason for

larger capacity magazines than I already have. I don't take shots I can't make with a high degree of success, and the number of shells in my shotgun is limited by law when I'm hunting anyhow.

I'm more interested in someone describing a realistic situation where I might need more than 7 rounds in my pistol or 5 shells in my shotgun for defensive purposes.

[friendly_iconoclast]

14. People can take a suprisingly long time to drop after being shot.

...if they drop. And they can still shoot, sometimes. The most famous case is the death of Baby Face Nelson. He died

after being shot several times- but he still managed to fatally wound the two cops that killed him.


Or you might be attacked by more than one armed person. Like I said before, it's your decision how to arm yourself.

[RSillsbee]

39. Thomas Coleman Younger

Was wounded eleven times in Northfield Minnesota and died of old age. E John Wesley Hardin was shot point blank in the abdomen w/ a 12 guage shotgun and managed to escape on horseback /E

[friendly_iconoclast]

7. And I will *never* contest your right to so choose- for yourself, and yourself alone.

Same goes for the OP.

[beardown]

6. Repeating myself, but

I use public transportation and combine trips as much as possible. My little four banger only has a five gallon tank. If there is a wreck a five gallon tank poses much less fire risk to passengers and fire fighters and if my car is stolen the thief won't be able to take the police on a dangerous 2 hours chase.

I don't see the utility of a large gas tank for civilian use because I certainly don't need it. If you know a reason why I need a larger tank, let me know. Otherwise, I'll struggle along with what I have, which I think is completely adequate.

[Vinnie From Indy]

8. There really is no reason for civilians to have high cap magazines

But, you never know when you might get pinned down behind the refrigerator while firing at a zombie horde crashing through the front door to eat your brains.

[bossy22]

11. so why do average police need them?

or maybe it is that our definition of high capacity mag bans many STANDARD capacity mags (i use standard because many of those mags are the ones the guns were designed to take and originally shipped with)

[MineralMan]

15. If a zombie horde breaks down my door, things have gone beyond

the realm of possibility, and I'm screwed anyhow. :rofl:

[friendly_iconoclast]

17. There really is no reason for you (or me) to deliver our opinions in public.

And for those who maintain that words can't kill- search the name "Julius Streicher".

[Hoopla Phil]

20. I think the shop keepers during the King riots would disagree with that

[RSillsbee]

48. The Zombies would go hungry at your house Huh? NT

[Glassunion]

69. Booooooooo! Hissssssss!

ok... it was a little funny.

[YllwFvr]

74. good point

a very serious risk

[bossy22]

9. i won't try to convince you

because its an issue of personal choice. If it was up to me- i wouldnt carry a 1911 A1 because it is single action and therefore there is a better chance that i could have a misfire unless i carried it uncocked. But that is just me.

i dont think a 30 round magazine has any real practical use in most pistols (but i dont agree with them being banned) but why does that mean that an 11 round magazine has no practical use? Obviously they do- since the majority of 9mm and 40 sw pistols are made with +10 mag capacities; as well as most cops carry 12-17 round mags.

If they proposed a cap of 20 rounds i would atleast see some logic in that.

[MineralMan]

16. That's why I said I'd buy a new pistol if there was a good reason

to do so. I'm sure the standard magazines in many of them would be adequate if there was a reason I should be carrying one.

[Hoopla Phil]

22. I'm reminded of an incident that was analyzed by

Massad Ayhoob (sp?) in which an officer fired six rounds from her service revolver into a person. The person was hit IIRC 5 times, 4 of which were excellent center mass shots. The "perp" then stabbed and killed the officer only to die later.

The end analysis was not enough firepower. The cartridge was insufficient and the amount of ammo the pistol carried was insufficient.

[bossy22]

23. you are not getting what i am saying

no one can convince you because its an entirely personal choice. It's like me trying to convince you that green is the best color or that chocolate cake is the best dessert.

i carry a gun with a capacity of 15 shots because i can. My gun, a glock 19, was designed to hold a 15 round magazine which fits flush into the grip. I carry 15 rounds not because i believe 10 is not enough, but because there is no harm in me carrying 5 extra. to me its extra insurence and i'd rather have them and not need them, than need them and not have them.

For you the choice may be different- in another post i saw you said you can aim very steadily in emergency situations- therefore you may believe that you will never need more than 7 and prefer a gun that holds that amount giving you no reason to want to change.

so just because 7 is good for you doesnt mean its good for everyone else

[PavePusher]

10. It is well known that it can take several hits, even with the venerable .45 ACP...

(a rather modestly powered handgun), to stop a determined, intoxicated or berserker attacker. It isn't like the movies or TV, where the "good guy" whips out his pistol, fires one round center-of-mass, and the "bad-guy" flies backwards with a fist-sized hole through them.

Now, imagine two or more threats, perhaps coming from different angles...

How good is your chrystal ball? Are you sure 7 rounds is enough? It might be... or it might not be. Why take the chance. There have been numerous defensive fire-fights, well documented, where the defender fired more than seven shots. I carry 8 round mags in my 1911, chambered and saftied, with two spare mags in a belt holder opposite the gun. 25 rounds may not be enough either, but trying to carry more takes up too much belt space, and what I've got puts me at a comfortable safety margin over the FBI/DoJ published average-shots-per-incident.

Safety margins are good things.

[Vinnie From Indy]

21. You know, you have fully convinced me!

One never knows what kind of danger lurks outside and it is always best to be prepared for the worst. With that spirit in mind, I find it outrageous that I am not able to walk around with a fully auto, belt fed, electric powered gatling gun and a backpack to hold and feed at least a thousand rounds. Granted, it will be heavy, but you simply never know. In addition, I think that I should be able to carry in my trunk an RPG (you never know when the bad guys will use helicopters to come after you) and a flame thrower. Lastly, I believe that I should have the right to park a fully functional Abrams tank in my driveway.

In short, why have any limits on weapon owenrship in America? Is it not CLEARLY spelled out in the Constitution that I, as a citizen, have the right to bear arms?

[shadowrider]

24. Oh jeez

<img src="" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us"/><br/>Shot at 2011-01-21

[Vinnie From Indy]

27. Seriously, why should I not be able to own these things?

As has been stated on several posts, you just never know what type of dangerous situation might develop where a flame thrower is just the ticket to defend myself and my family. Maybe if the shop owners during the L.A. riots had tanks that they could quickly deploy outside their stores, there would have been much less looting. Maybe a few cluster bombs and bouncing betty's launched from the shop owner's roof would have protected his slurpy machine or whatever it is he was trying to protect. A six shot revolver would certainly not be enough to stop the hordes wishing to steal his stuff.

It seems to me that all gun laws draw ARBITRARY lines that infringe on the 2nd Amendment. Why can I own 1000 guns with high capacity mags but not a single tripod mounted, fully auto .50 cal?

[shadowrider]

30. So I don't repeat myself, see post #24 n/t

[Vinnie From Indy]

34. So, you believe that anyone should be able to own high cap magazines,

but not a fully auto machine gun? Why the arbitrary line? In fact, where should the line be drawn? Why is your high cap magazine your legal right and and an RPG and flamethrower are denied to me?

Why should people that shoot just well enough to hit their targets with a high cap mag have that legal right while other folks that are horrible shots are left to get killed because they could not hit anything after emptying their high cap mags? I am simply making a case for all the lousy shooters in the world. If 30 rounds is good then wouldn't 1000 be better? Why should I be left to die simply because I can't shoot straight enough to hit an attacker with 30 shots? Seems kind of unfair.

[friendly_iconoclast]

40. I sense a disturbance in the Force, as if...

...someone who pretends they can't read and understand the National Firearms Act of 1934 were about...

[Vinnie From Indy]

44. the NFA is simply an aribitrary line drawn in the sand

Why is disallowing high cap mags any different?

[friendly_iconoclast]

49. High cap mags are in common use, and are no more dangerous...

...than the low cap ones, high profile anecdotes notwithstanding.

[RSillsbee]

46. What would be the danger of a fully automatic weapon

In the hands of a law abiding citizen? In fact several thousand are owned by law abiding citizens I don't see them being used in crimes do you?

[Vinnie From Indy]

81. My whole point is that there are already arbitrary limits on guns and gun ownership

Why would banning high cap mags cause any distress among gun owners?

[RSillsbee]

82. Because most gun owners drew a line in the sand

(on the wrong side of full auto weapons IMO) I don't see that high cap magazines, which I define as any magazine designed to hold more than the standard factory magazine for that weapon, are being used in all that many crimes out there. As a matter of fact I only know of one.

So why ban them?

[beevul]

85. You CAN own those things.

"Why can I own 1000 guns with high capacity mags but not a single tripod mounted, fully auto .50 cal?"

You CAN own those things.

All it takes, is:

A: being able to find one made before 1986 and afford it;

B: being able to pass the ATF background check and complimentary spelunking expedition in the exit end of your Alimentary Canal;

C: paying the 200 dollar tax

[Katya Mullethov]

123. Only the Drug Cartels can afford them

http://machinegunpriceguide.com/html/us_belt_7.html

[burrfoot]

119. You can have the flamethrower, actually.

I believe it's considered an agricultural implement. So....go nuts with that one.

[RSillsbee]

41. UNTRUE !!!!!! (you might want to put your drink down before reading)

You sir, are an INFIDEL !!!!!!!!

Everyone knows the .45 ACP is a death ray that will blow your head off if it hits you in the toe. There are several well documented cases in which just the wind from it's passing sucked all the air from a perp's lungs and killed him be suffocation


I am soooooo not going to put the :sarcasm: thingy in this post (except I just did)

[guitar man]

55. No, what you are describing

Is the ubiquitous 44 magnum :P :spray: :hi:

[shadowrider]

63. I heard a .22 can do that (If you believe anti's). BAN all weapons I say

:sarcasm:

[guitar man]

65. LOL!!

I kinda miss my 44 mag but when it got to where I didn't have the time to spend reloading for it it was just way too expensive to shoot it very much. A friend of mine had a junkyard and was into shooting high power stuff like I was back then. We'd spend hours out there on the weekend just seeing what we could tear up :D

[PavePusher]

58. Oh Noes!1!!11!

Now I have to convert to the Holy Church of The Indomintable .454 Casull. Woe ...!

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

13. I would probably carry a 1911-A1 with 7-round magazines as well

I would not presume to judge what is right for someone else to carry.

Once you take that decision away or limit other people's choices, in my view you have assumed moral responsibility for all consequences of making the choice for them. The moment someone is unfortunate enough to be in a situation where an eighth round meant the difference between life or death, you have failed to permit that person to have adequate defensive tools.

I don't want that responsibility on my shoulders, either as an individual or by proxy through government.

[MineralMan]

19. I'm judging nobody. I'm asking for answers.

I think I was clear in my post.

[slackmaster]

60. I don't see a practical use for a 30-round handgun magazine FOR ME, NOW

I am loathe to make a blanket statement that nobody, including me, would ever have a practical use for one.

I'm not willing to accept the responsibility for setting some arbitrary limit on magazine capacity.

[PavePusher]

61. You asked a fair and valid question.

I think people are a little touchy due to the hyperbolic response to my answer. And I may have sounded a little testy as well, if so, I apologize. We tend to see the same question repeated at least three times a day here, more like thirty for the last two weeks.

[guitar man]

25. I carry a 1911

A pre A-1 straight grip 1911 that was built in 1918 or 1919 according to the S/N. It's a beautiful old bone-stock .45 and it's pretty "low mileage". Sometimes I carry a Colt SAA in .38 spl , It's an 1874 frame that was originally 38-40 but was later updated with the 38 spl smokeless cylinder and barrel. When I carry it I leave the hammer resting on an empty just in case it gets dropped so that leaves me with 5 rounds. These are my choices, I like them and they suit me fine


If somebody wants to carry a modern weapon with higher capacity, that's their choice and I support it. Why? Because once they knock us down to 10 rounds, the next question will be "why do you need 8 or 7, why not 6?" and so on and so forth.

[MineralMan]

32. Nice. The old .38 sounds nice, too.

[guitar man]

45. The 38 has the smoothest action ever

They just don't make em like that anymore. I also have a Colt SAA Frontier model in 44-40 but I don't carry it out with me, it might be worth more than my house by now lol. I bought it about 30 years ago along with a model 1873 Winchester rifle for next to nothing. :D

[MineralMan]

94. I'm fond of old guns too. When I was a youngster, I hunted upland

birds with a beautiful Ithaca 20 ga. double. It was one of their very lightweight models, and fit me to perfection. Shooting that shotgun was so intuitive and simple for me. Sadly, my younger brother was using it when he was a young guy and managed to stuff some mud in the barrel, then fired it at a quail. While the left barrel didn't spit, it was swollen just in front of the chamber. The cost of a new pair of barrels was prohibitive, even back then in the 1960s, so my father traded it for my current deer rifle.

I was very sad to see that Ithaca go. It was a sweet shotgun. Of course, I'm a different shape than I was when I was 12 and 13, so it probably wouldn't fit me as well today, but I'd sure love to have it again. Right now, I'm trying to pry a 20 ga. Model 12 from my dad. It was the other shotgun I used as a kid, and I'd sure like to have it. He's reluctant, though, since it's his squirrel and rat gun on the citrus farm they own.

I did retrieve my Red Ryder BB gun though, a couple of Christmases ago, along with a very old Crosman .22 pump-up pellet rifle. They go nicely with my other old air guns.

[guitar man]

100. I love 20 ga.

My first shotgun was a Mossberg 20 ga. pump, dad gave it to me for my 14th birthday, I still have it.

I had a really great collection of old iron but have had to sell some of it off, the Bu$h years were pretty rough on me financially. At one time I had 5 Colt SAA revolvers (aka peacemaker) all from the 1870s, now I'm down to two, 3 trapdoor Springfields and several original lever action Winchesters and Henrys. All I have left of those is the 1873 and a couple modern made Henry replicas. And I still have a M1 Garand which would be the last one I'd ever sell. Well, it or the 1911, o couldn't imagine turning loose of either one of those.

[MineralMan]

102. Where we lived in California, quail were the upland game we most

often hunted, so a 20 was ideal. My father, on the other hand, used a 28 ga. Model 12 for that hunting. He was an amazing wing shot, and rarely didn't bring down a quail whenever he shouldered it. My brother is in line for that one.

He's 86 now, and doesn't hunt any longer. He was the reason, though, for my enjoyment of shooting and firearms. I rarely hunt deer any more, since I'm in Minnesota and only have access to public lands. Too many drinkers hunting those these days to suit me, so I have pretty much put my stuff into storage, bringing it out every six months or so for a thorough cleaning and oiling.

I've been out for duck a couple of time since moving here, but haven't had much success. I need to find a buddy who is a duck hunter in the area, I guess. Upland game is too far away for me, now, and pheasant, too. So, I'm pretty much out of hunting, but I still love the old iron.

I'm an old fart these days, and pretty much a stay at home guy. Still, it's nice to relive old memories, and I still hit the range a couple of times a year, just to make sure I can still hit what I mean to hit.

[guitar man]

103. I hear ya

Here in Oklahoma when I was a kid, we had 80 acres that was home to a couple of big coveys of quail. I remember just walking them up and taking some home for mom to put in the frying pan. My best friend had a 28 ga too, he could really bring them down with it.

I haven't hunted in a long time either, after dad sold the farm and we moved to the city just never seemed to get the chance to go very much. Fond memories though, anytime we wanted to go hunting all we had to do was step out the back door and start walking into the pasture :)

[flamin lib]

26. Funny thing, I seldome put more than five rounds in my nine round

magazine. You shouldn't leave magazines fully loaded because it might weaken the spring and cause misfires, so five is all I load in any of my magazines. That on the advice of ex-marine SIL. YMMV. Beyond that, for range time it slows the consumption rate and feeding a semi auto can get expensive. I see no point in expending 500 rounds when a carefully placed 200 improve my skills just as much. Of course that's just me.

[RSillsbee]

50. Your Ex Marine SIL

is perpetuating a myth

[flamin lib]

57. Just what his Gunny told him. nt

[RSillsbee]

62. His gunny is perpetuating a myth then

Cycling magazines wears out the springs not holding them in a static compressed state.

That said you can replace springs for around 19 ( I meant 10 bucks must have mistyped) bucks so what's the issue

[Euromutt]

114. There are a lot of myths perpetuated by NCOs, including Marine gunnies

Anthony Swofford (author of Jarhead) had a gunnery sergeant who swore blind it's against the Geneva Convention to use a weapon in .50 BMG against personnel, which is total bullshit. I'm a former (technically inactive reserve) Dutch infantry NCO, and my manual for small unit leaders, in the chapter on care and feeding of the M2HB, lists ground troops and paratroopers as suitable targets. And there is practically not a single treaty on methods of warfare that the Dutch haven't signed and ratified.

[X_Digger]

31. I can imagine quite a few scenarios..

1#

You're facing the third home invader to come in your door. Three shots went wild because you were stone cold asleep when you were awakened by the smashing in of your back door, and it took two shots per perp to stop their advance..

woops.. slide's locked back.

"Hang on, I need to go get my spare magazine."

*BANG*

Do you assume that you'll have perfect aim when woken up from a sound sleep, and you immediately get an adrenaline dump?

2#

You're a gay guy working part-time for the census bureau, and your car breaks down at dusk in Bumfuck, Pennsyltuckaginia. You're standing by the side of the road with the hood up, when a truckload of 'good ol boys' roll up and claim that you were 'making eyes at my boy'.. Seven or eight of them pile out of the bed of the truck, carrying tire irons and baseball bats..

etc etc..

[Vinnie From Indy]

35. Your exactly right!

A truck full of good ol boys pulls up while my car is at the side of the road with hood and trunk up and they jump out with baseball bats and such clearly intending to do me great bodily harm. What do I do with a lousy six shot revolver? But, on the other hand, imagine if I reach into my trunk and pull out an electric powered, fully auto gatling gun (painted pink with rainbow stickers all over the stock) with a 1000 rounds of belt fed ammo and let her rip on the Bubbas coming at me.

[X_Digger]

38. Don't quit your day job.

Hyperbole isn't your strong suit.

[Vinnie From Indy]

42. Neither is hypocrisy

Why should you be able to have a high cap magazine and I cannot have a machine gun? Maybe I am a horrible shot and need the extra rounds just to be sure I hit something.

[RSillsbee]

52. You're absolutely right NT

[slackmaster]

53. Who said you can't have a machine gun?

I believe your state allows people to own them.

[X_Digger]

56. You CAN have a machine gun.. or didn't you know that?

It would make a terrible self-defense weapon, since it's rather indiscriminate in effect, though.

[Glassunion]

47. You got a fuckin problem with Pennsyltuckaginia?

My aunt is from Bumfuck...

It's beautiful there.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9848071@N03/758212780/

http://www.travelpod.com/travel-blog-city/United%20States/East%20Bumfuck/tpod.html

My aunt is selling her car... http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3885107/1998-mitsubishi-eclipse-gsx-coupe-2d

[Katya Mullethov]

54. Needs more range photos

Hills AND trees , I am envious !

[X_Digger]

59. You're talking to a guy who grew up in "Grundy", VA..

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=grundy,+va&aq=&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=35.357014,91.318359&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Grundy,+Buchanan,+Virginia&ll=37.278014,-82.099628&spn=0.069389,0.178356&z=13&iwloc=A&layer=c&cbll=37.277901,-82.099497&panoid=-EHVFj6P6n84qUOe_akm5w&cbp=12,144.74,,0,9.85

^ "street" view of Main st.

[Glassunion]

75. Dude! They broke the mountain.

Reminds me of the coal stripping in Hazleton, PA.

[X_Digger]

78. All the flat land there is either flood plain or carved out of a mountain.

They tore down half the town to move it to higher ground because of the periodic floods.

[AtheistCrusader]

33. More than 7 rounds were expended when Mark Allen Wilson tried to stop the shooter outside

the courthouse in Tyler Tx. Wilson lost his life in the exchange, but saved the gunman's own son, and delayed the shooter long enough for SWAT to arrive on scene.

Anecdotal? You bet. I carry 15+1 and two reloads. I figure if I need more than that, I'm a dead man anyway. Your bar for that equation might be much lower, and that's perfectly fine. 7 rounds might be perfectly adequate. You can never know right? If you knew when, where, and how such an event might unfold, you'd be there with a rifle and a bunch of friends with rifles, right? A handgun is a compromise on portability, and stopping power.

[RSillsbee]

36. First I want to see a picture of your 1911

If you know of a reason for them, let me know. If you're convincing, I'll buy a new sidearm and a high-capacity magazine for it. Otherwise, I'll struggle along with what I have, which I think is completely adequate.

Second I'm sure it is completely adequate to your needs (you really should train up and carry one in the chamber though)

That said, I live next door to a crack house and across the street from a guy who grows MMJ for a living. Home invasion robberies are going up in Colorado Springs I wouldn't want to face 4 or even 3 armed thugs w/ a 1911 in the middle of the night.

I also have a crazy ex SIL who blames my wife and I for him losing his children and wife ( because the meth had nothing to do w/ it). That I know of he has been involved in 3 murders.

Need I go on?

[MineralMan]

79. I don't do photos of my stuff.

Sorry.

[Katya Mullethov]

51. Doing the right thing only to be confronted by a cactus swinging mob ?

Ever been so mad you could swing a cactus ?
/////
HAWTHORNE, Calif. (AP) — A bizarre series of events unfolded in Hawthorne after a deadly hit-and-run that ended with a man beaten by a mob.

Hawthorne police Lt. Gary Tomatoni said in a statement Friday that a minivan hit a man Wednesday night as he crossed Crenshaw Boulevard, and the driver fled the scene. The man was then run over by a second car, whose driver also failed to stop.

One of several people who ran to help the man was hit by a car herself.

Tomatoni says that driver stopped to help, but a mob of bystanders attacked him, beat him and stole his cell phone.

The first hit-and-run victim died at a hospital, the others are expected to be fine.

One man from the mob was arrested .
///////////////

ETA : Local leaders are mystified as to why the first two drivers refused to stop , "It's a fucking mystery !" They exclaimed .

[ileus]

64. My EDC is a 45 10 rounds, or 380 7 rounds.

All my other semi-auto pistols are 12 or 15 standard. I don't have extended mags for them.

However.com I do shoot the following firearms a shistload...


I really enjoy my 10, 15's, 30's and 20's I have for my Sub2000 9mm

My 30's and 20's for my AR's

My 30's and 20's for my Mini

My 15's and 20's for my SKS


As for my Hunting firearms

I have a single shot 308 and a 5 shot BAR in 270 for deer.

Or I take my AR with a 20 round mag deer hunting.

All my shotguns (12) are in the range of 3-7 rounds depending on which one I pick up. I don't own a HD/SD shotgun.

My 22's are 5-10 round range. Semi-autos and bolts.


I hate to break it to anyone but there's more two reasons for firearms. When we go out shooting we rattle off a shitload of rounds without any reloading, except maybe the EDC shooting. I suppose cutting down the mag capacity to 10 would be okay, but I'd have to invest in 3x more magazines, that would be better than a total gun grab I suppose.

[diveguy]

66. I'll try to answer the best i can.

I also have an early model colt. my papa carried it in WWII. I don't see any problem with defending yourself with it. I personally carry three guns depending on what i am doing. Summer i carry a .38 snubbie due to concealment. winter i carry HK .40. Fishing or hunting i carry a .22.

When i get a new pistol, i break it in. If i am going to depend on it, i need to know it will work for me when needed. This usually start with me firing 2-300 rds though it at each range trip. I will make several trips before i feel i can depend on it. 33 rd mags would make it alot easier since i would have to drop as many mags.

Target shooters would benefit. Match shooters are timed. so going without changing mags would help them win.

The hi-cap mags that cops are issued are not special to them. It's just that thats how many rds will fit in a mag for that particular firearm. My duty weapon has 17 rd mags, and i carry two extra. In a gun fight on duty, i am not going to shoot until the gun runs empty. At each pause, i am going to change mags. The only real use for a pistol is to fight your way to a rifle.

In personal defensive use, i only need enough rds to fight my way to cover and maintain it.

The real problem i have here is that people are jumping on the hi-cap bandwagon blaming an incident on a magazine. The only effective gun control, will target the human element. Effective laws are in place they are not enforced. A reporting system that LEO or doctors could use to warn ATF that an individual has mental problems would be great.

[oneshooter]

89. Close to, but I like mine better.......

"I only need enough rds to fight my way to my rifle"

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[DissedByBush]

67. I don't understand it either

But then there are a lot of things I don't understand.

For example, I don't understand how a man can be sexually attracted to another man.

But that doesn't mean I need to have anything against gays.

[Glassunion]

68. Three reasons...

#1. I carry a firearm that uses smaller rounds with less stopping power. 9mm vs your .45. What might take you two rounds to stop, might take me 3 to 4. My firearm a Glock 26 comes with a standard 10 round magazine. One of the magazines I have extended to a 12 round not to have more rounds, but more to extend the grip and give my pinkie a place to rest instead of curling it under the grip. The other 2 magazines that came with the firearm simply have grip extensions on them that do not extend the magazine's capacity.

Here is a good example of the different options for the model 26. The first and 3rd picture outline what I have.
http://wilsondefense.blogspot.com/2010/09/magazine-extensions-for-mini-glocks.html

#2. The police who patrol my neighborhood carry .40 cal Glocks Model 22 which comes standard with a 15rd magazine. I have observed that the police officers in my town carry up to 4 spare magazines for a total of up to 60 rounds per officer. I look at it simply as the police have determined that there is a necessity to carry 15 round magazines while they patrol the same streets that I walk every day. What is wrong with carrying a firearm that holds the same amount of rounds as a police officer who is patrolling the same neighborhood where you live?

#3. I have up until recently never been concerned with a break-in or home invasion. My wife and I live in a wonderful and quiet neighborhood. We have taken several precautions, some cheap(lighting, enhanced locks, etc) and others not so cheap(security system) to protect our home. During last December there were 6 occupied burglaries(home invasions), where 2 to 3 armed men were invading homes in my neighborhood. At the same time there were 18 car break ins. The police believe that the crimes are related, based on what they have been taking and the descriptions that they have. The police feel that they are targeting our neighborhoods because of our access to 2 highways. They also feel that the criminals are seeking cash and easily fenced items for drug money.

No one can say for certain how many rounds would be needed to stop 2 to 3 armed invaders in your home. No one. But that said, just because I personally do not carry a firearm that comes standard with a 10 round magazine that I feel that others should be limited to the same. These are my choices that I have made. Who am I to make choices for others?

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

70. I also carry a 1911 with 8 rounds... or a .380 with 7 rounds... or a Glock with 16 rounds.

Capacity doesn't really matter to me. I'll carry whatever fits in the grip of the gun (so it can be concealed) plus a spare magazine. The choice of gun depends on how I'm dressed and my mood for the day. Sometimes I feel like carrying american steel... sometimes I want a piece of austrian plastic. However, I do keep an 11 round extended 1911 mag and 30 round extended glock mag in my glovebox.

One thing is for certain, I'm not going to handicap myself because someone else thinks they know how many rounds I need. Nor will I vote for anyone who feels they have the right to dictate my needs without logical justification.

If you only want seven rounds... great, then use 7 rounds.
But it's about what you want and what your comfortable with... not what someone thinks you need.

[oneshooter]

90. I carry either a SIG 220 or a Colt Commander ( my Loving Wife has here own)

I do however carry 2 spare Mags, as does my Loving Wife. All are in 45acp.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

71. double post...

[Glassunion]

76. Well said...

[YllwFvr]

72. The Peter Soulis Incident

Yes he was an officer, but it doesnt mean your powerful 45 would fair any better if you actually needed it.

Linky
http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/officer-down-peter-soulis-inci

[beevul]

77. I don't carry a gun, but...

"I just don't see the utility of high capacity magazines for civilian use."

Define high capacity.

[MineralMan]

80. My definition of high capacity is anything beyond the standard

magazine for a particular weapon.

[bossy22]

84. interesting

that is actually a logical way of thinking of it- the problem is that proponents of gun control won't use that because it basically throws their mag ban under the bus

the standard capacity mag of an AR-15 is 30 rounds
the standard capacity mag of most 9mm pistols is 15-17
the standard capacity of most 40 sw pistols is 12-15

[MineralMan]

91. I'm only discussing handguns in this thread.

And my opinion is that the standard capacity is fine. The reason for the thread was to see if someone had a good argument for a higher capacity handgun than my .45. I've not seen one, so I'll stick with what I have. Others can do whatever they want.

I don't own an AR-15, and would have no use for such a firearm. I've listed the three firearms I own. I won't buy another one unless I can find a really good reason. I will, however, inherit my father's antique Henry rifle, but that will never be fired by me.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

104. The standard capacity of the MPA-30 (M-11/9) and the Intratec 9 is 30 rounds.

There are some pistols where a 30 round mag is standard. ;)
In fact, finding smaller mags for MPA pistols and intratec pistols is HARD.

[old mark]

133. Intratec has been out of business for many years...nt

[Hoyt]

86. Not that I think it's OK to carry a 1911 in public, but it beats a weapon marketed for massacres.

[beevul]

87. Which weapons are "marketed" for massacres?

Shouldn't be too hard to find just 1 example.

[Hoyt]

97. Ah man. Take a look at some of these weapons -- they are marketed to appeal to your baser instincts

and fears.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

105. What about a Browning Hi-Power?

It can hold 14 rounds and was designed by Browning only a few years after he designed the 1911.

I'm curious... what is a "baser instinct"?

[friendly_iconoclast]

108. In this context? It's the new "more guns= more crime" canard, as the old one doesn't work anymore.

Apparently, if we're told loudly and repeatedly how bad guns are, and how psychologically deficient gun owners are,

something (we are never told what) will cause us to change our behaviors.

I call it Phelpsing the argument.

[Hoyt]

109. Look it up, .001. Someone who covets a Browning HP should understand baser instinct.

[friendly_iconoclast]

107. I don't fear them. Do you? I wouldn't buy most of them, mind you...

...but I have no problem with others buying them.

[Hoyt]

110. Guns are not the concern, it is the people who covet them. Isn't that how it goes?

But, we can't ban people -- that's in the whole Constitution, not just some ambiguous, single amendment. So, we need to look at guns.

[Euromutt]

120. Two words: Patrick Sherill

Part-time mail carrier, shot up the post office in Edmond, Oklahoma in 1986. Fourteen dead, six wounded, not counting Sherill, who thus originated the term "going postal." Weapon used: two Colt M1911A1s with 7-round mags, thereby proving that it's quite feasible to carry out a mass murder with magazines that hold less than 11 rounds.

And "a weapon marketed for massacres"? Let me have a quick look through the latest issue of American Rifleman to see if I can find an example...

Page 3, "The John Wayne Tribute Rifle," a gussied-up Uberti replica Winchester 1873...
Page 11, the Taurus 709 and 740 Slim; "The thinnest 9mm or .40 cal in its class. Clean, flat lines keep the Slim hidden under the lightest t-shirts or polos."
Page 13, Ruger's SR9c, LCR and LCP; again, emphasis on concealability (I'm starting to see a trend here).
Page 23, the XD(M) Compact; "13 round concealed carry, 19 round home defense"
Page 25, the Springfield Armory "Range Officer"; "designed to be an affordable 1911 for competition <...>"
Page 30, the Savage Arms Axis bolt-action; "best-in-class entry-level rifle."
Page 32, an annoying Kahr Arms "Thin is Sexy" ad, "nothing fits better undercover"
Page 35, an ad for the CMP, and one for the Rock River Arms "Piston Driven System" AR "pistol" ("Guaranteed 1 MOA Accuracy!")
Page 37, Mitchell's Mausers ad for a WWII-vintage K98
Inside back cover, ArmaLite AR-10®; "AR stands for ArmaLite... accept no substitutes"
Back cover, Kimber Super Carry series; "the new standard of personal defense"

Well, I'm seeing concealability emphasized, and the word "defense" crops up a few times, but nothing to the effect of "this weapon is ideally suited for slaughtering a large number of unarmed people."

[aikoaiko]

106. might be fine for you, but anyone else thinks they need 12, 15, 19, or even 30. I'm fine with that

too.

Let me ask you a question. How come you chose not to carry a derringer with one or two shots? Why choose a gun with 7 shots.

[krispos42]

112. I presume you haven't had to shoot at anyone with it.

Presuming that, it is quite safe to say that it is unlikely your feelings of adequacy will ever be tested. Even in the unlikely event you have to draw you gun in the face of a threat, the odds of you having to pull the trigger are also minimal.

However, if the worst-case scenario does happen to you, there are two things that I am pretty certain you won't do:

a) fire one more round than necessary to end the threat

b) complain about all that extra ammo you didn't use

[jeepnstein]

113. A 1911?

And you don't carry cocked and locked? Well, that pretty much tells me everything I need to know about your expertise.

For the record, I carry a 1911 as a duty weapon. I feel very well-armed with it. And it's an Officer's model with one less round capacity than a full sized model. My duty shotgun holds seven rounds. We are not permitted to carry a carbine.

Just because I carry a 1911 doesn't mean that the higher capacity semi-auto pistols on the market aren't very useful defensive weapons. Typically normal citizens will adopt the firearms they see in use with police departments and the military. There's no good reason not to choose a pistol that holds fifteen or eighteen rounds unless you're just a 1911 kind of guy.

[AzNick]

118. My only purchase of a 1911 would be for target shooting

I am getting into bullseye shooting and I have my sight on a Ruger Mark III as well as a 1911, both for this purpose.

1911s make great target guns, as you know.

For carry, I have a Taurus 85, and even, I seldom carry. Only if I go to "that part of town". 38 special +P, hollowpoint, and an extra loader.

Seriously, even if it is only a 5-shot, I can reload fast enough.

And, really, what are my chances of getting into a firefight?

At the range, I don't mind reloading, it helps me pace myself. It's part of the "zen" of the experience, which the abolitionists among us fail to understand.

[jeepnstein]

121. Try this...

Have someone establish a totally arbitrary time line for you to shoot, seek cover, reload, shoot again, reload, and stay on the target. Plan on having to shoot multiple targets, let's say three just for the heck of it. Have a few people screaming at you and possibly even throwing things while you try to do this. Then get back to me about how quickly you can reload. And that won't even begin to come close to the adrenaline rush you'll be under if you ever have to shoot in self defense.

I'm not saying your snub is a bad choice because it's not at all. I'm just saying you need to try loading and shooting under stress some time just for the experience.

There was a guy at work a guy who carried a drop-dead gorgeous Colt Python. He had six speed loaders on his duty belt. When he was questioned about all them by a training officer his response was simple. "Ain't never been a man died because he had too much ammo, Sarge." That pretty well sums it up.

[AzNick]

137. Yes, but let's be real, for a minute...

What are my chances of being in a firefight?

If anything, being in a situation where I have to use my gun in self defense?

And out of all these situations, most I can walk out of without shooting because if I can avoid killing, I will.

The CCW culture, as I call it, is a lot of that talk you just gave me. A lot of "you need a better weapon to defend yourself", "you never carry too much ammo", etc...

Seriously, unless you are LE or even a repo guy, or just serve people papers, your chances of being in any dangerous situations are very very slim.

Of course, if you are a kid growing in the projects, it's different. But I am a white guy living in a white neighborhood. I consider I have more chances of being involved in a potentially deadly car crash than in a firefight.

The Taurus 85 comes with me only when I have to go certain places and even in these situations, it is overkill.

The issue is that too many people get into that self-defense nonsense, where they justified to everybody and themselves that they own a gun for that purpose, instead of just saying, as I do all that time, that I own guns because it's fun to shoot.

The self-defense crap I hear on talk radio all the time is just that: crap.

Sorry, my opinion.

[Atypical Liberal]

122. The problem is defining "high capacity"

rebuilt and accurized. I cannot envision a defensive situation where I would need more rounds than its standard 7-round magazine holds. Can you describe such a situation, so I can understand why a high-capacity magazine has any practical use? Note: I do not carry with a round in the chamber, either.

My other firearms have fixed magazines, and I do not remember any situation where I emptied those fixed magazines while using the firearms. Generally, I refill the magazine after firing rounds from it when hunting, and reload when they are empty when firing at targets.

One is a deer rifle, with a Springfield action. Only once have I fired two rounds during a hunt. Every other deer I've taken was down with a single shot. The other is a 12 ga. pump shotgun I keep for home defense and for occasional duck hunting. The magazine plug is out of it, and I feel quite confident that the five shells in that magazine will be more than adequate for home defense. When hunting, the plug goes back in. I do not keep a shell in the chamber at home, for safety reasons.

I just don't see the utility of high capacity magazines for civilian use. If you know of a reason for them, let me know. If you're convincing, I'll buy a new sidearm and a high-capacity magazine for it. Otherwise, I'll struggle along with what I have, which I think is completely adequate.

At face value, I agree with you that there is little practical use for extended magazines in pistols. Note that I said "extended", not "high capacity". There is a difference.

"Extended magazines" are magazines that protrude below the usual grip of the pistol. Such magazines could almost be considered novelty items. They make a pistol bulky, unwieldy, and heavy. They pretty much eliminate the concealed carry rationale for a pistol.

But here's the rub: There are many pistols, like the Springfield Armory XDM 9mm, that hold 19 rounds inside the grip magazine. The XDM 45 holds 13 rounds.

So, as to why I would want that, well, why not? If I were to buy a new Colt 1911 today, it would cost me about $800. The Springfield Armory XDM 45 costs about $750 - about the same. Since they are functionally identical, and fire the same ammunition, and cost the same, why wouldn't I buy the one that holds more ammo? The only reason I could think of is if the extra weight of 6 more rounds of ammo was going to be burdensome for concealed carry.

But if I'm going to buy a gun, all else being equal, I'm going to buy the one that holds the most rounds of ammo. Why? The more rounds it holds the more insurance I have should I have to use the gun to defend myself. The more margin I have for error if I miss my attacker.

For hunting, I agree, you don't need large magazine capacities. But most gun owners aren't hunters.

For civilian assault rifles, since the intent of the second amendment is for civilians to be armed with small arms suitable for infantry use, then standard military-sized magazines are appropriate for things like civilian AK-47s and AR-15s.

[benEzra]

124. Because a lot of us choose to trade smaller caliber for higher capacity.

One round of 230gr .45 ACP weighs almost exactly twice as much as a round of 115gr 9mm and has 60% more frontal area. In a full-sized gun, I'd prefer to trade off some of that mass and size for higher reserve capacity, given similar magazine size and weight, so I'd pick a Springfield XD or a Glock with a 15 to 20 round magazine over a 7+1 .45 and have more reserve. I also see that most police agencies choose similarly, although these days a lot of agencies split the difference with .40 S&W. If you prefer 7+1 rounds of .45 (or 6 or 8 rounds of .357), more power to you, but yours is not the only rational choice.

As far as rifles go, a similar power vs. capacity vs. weight tradeoff comes into play. A hunter who needs to shoot an elk at 300 yards might use a .30-06 or various .300 magnums with 4 to 6 kJ of energy at the muzzle. However, since most gun owners are nonhunters, and the primary purposes of civilian centerfire rifles are recreational target shooting and defensive standby, most of us have no need for earsplitting, hard-kicking rifles that trade everything for extreme power and light weight. As a result, the most popular centerfire rifle caliber in the United States (.223 Remington) trades away most of that power (only 1.5 kJ/round at the muzzle of a 16" barrel) for much better capacity, e.g. 20 or 30 of the little rounds in the same weight gun. That tradeoff doesn't work if you're an elk hunter, but it is an eminently rational choice for most of us, particularly those of us who keep a small-caliber carbine in lieu of the traditional home-defense 12-gauge.

[dizbukhapeter]

126. Shouldn't carry unloaded

I'd argue that a person who carries a pistol unchambered is unprepared to carry a handgun. The m1911 has many safeties: the thumb safety, the grip safety, a half cock position, and newer models have a firing pins safety. I hope you don't get hurt should you ever have to fumble to get a round chambered because you are too scared to carry your handgun the way it was designed to be carried. Why bother carrying a gun unchambered? Its the same thing as carrying an unloaded handgun.

[shadowrider]

127. Why bother carrying a gun unchambered? Fixed this for you

Its the same thing as carrying an unloaded handgun. club, especially if one arm becomes, for some reason, incapacitated before you can prep your weapon.

[dizbukhapeter]

128. I'm not interested in mixing it up, thats why I have a gun

If he wants to club a bad guy, he can carry a club. If he wants to carry a gun, he should carry it the correct way.

[shadowrider]

129. Agreed n/t

[old mark]

130. When I carry a 1911- which is not frequently- I take a few extra mags along...

Lately I have been carrying a small .357 magnun 6 shot revolver, with 2 speed loaders.
The revolver and speed loaders carry Remington .38 Spl +P hollow points.

mark

[east texas lib]

131. IMHO, carrying a 1911 without one up the spout is a bad tactical move (free country, though)...

However a sheriff showed me how he could cock a 1911 one handed easily by snagging the rear sight on his belt or pant leg while sitting or standing. Might come in handy if one of your hands is busy slapping the shit out of a bad hombre and things really go south on ya'.

[Kennah]

132. My carry sidearm is a Glock 23

.40 S&W, 180 grain JHP Pro-Loads, 13 round magazine plus one in the chamber, and I carry two spare mags. Mathematic conclusion, I carry 40 rounds.

Why?

I've been through a fair bit of advanced training (Cathy Schlegel, Firearms Academy of Seattle, LFI, and the late Jim Cirillo). Well over 100 hours of advanced "go fast" training.

I'm very conflict averse, but I've had a few encounters that told me some people are a little bit afraid of me. My wife isn't, but she has told me "Yeah, I think some people are afraid of you. Just the way you carry yourself. It says 'Do not fuck with me'".

I presume that the criminal attacker who comes after me won't be a nickel and dimer--it will be someone really bad.

If a 1911 works for you, I won't tell you to replace it. However, I would suggest you consider a new 1911. The 80 series and beyond have a hammer block safety, and I don't believe a 50s era 1911 will have one. If you ever have to drop your gun, without a hammer block safety it could go Boom! If you have to drop it, drop it sideways so it tends to land flat and not bounce.

[dizbukhapeter]

134. Cocked and Locked is the only way to go

The method of racking your slide while drawing is called the Israeli carry method, I have doubts about that type of method. I think that carrying unchambered is a sign that the person isn't comfortable with his own gun and should revaluate their routine and get training in tactical shooting.

The 1911 has been carried cocked and locked for a hundred years. The consensus by "been there done that" guys is that cocked and locked is the only way to go.

I carry a Sig Pro 2022, my finger is my safety.

[Francis Marion]

135. The goal isn't to protect you

It is to establish precedent to disarm you.

If you allow Them to limit you at an arbitrary integer, of their choosing- what's to say that next year 6 is the new ceiling? Then 4, then three, then ZERO.

You going to put up with any arbitrary mandate they can devise to take away your freedom?

Don't burn up a lot of ammo hunting, no. A few rounds will do.

But what, exactly, does the Second Amendment protect- is it deer hunting?
Read the text; there is zero mention of hunting. The context is martial, not recreational.

Twenty or thirty rounds of ammunition in a magazine for a law abiding taxpayer is reasonable because those are standard M16 magazine capacities. Perceptions of 'need'- yours, mine, and the ban-klan- have no bearing whatsoever upon '...shall not be infringed.' That language excludes arbitrary numerical limits.

Suppose you try competitive shooting. It is very common to use >10, 20 or 30 shot magazines. There's plenty of use for such magazines in sport and recreation.

Suppose, God forbid, you have intruders in your home. How many are there? One, two, a half dozen? Do you really want to play by Marquis of Queensbury rules and sportingly engage them with arbitrarily low magazine limits? Just how sporting do you 'need' to be? I'd like access to the same hardware the PD will roll in with, i.e. Glocks and AR carbines with 30 round mags full of hollow points- because that is the stuff that professional judgement has deemed necessary for THEIR personal protection. Meh; why reinvent the wheel. Honest people deserve every possible advantage, and it's better to have too much advantage than not enough. Besides, the limiters and banners will never rest until you are empty. So why abrogate a right, and why allow them to treat you like an untrustworthy criminal?

Bet that the elitists' bodyguards won't limit themselves the same way they insist that you be limited.

We are not 'ordinary civilians'. We are The People, and are in charge of this country. Nothing ordinary about that. If we tolerate their assaults on our gun rights long enough, though, in a 'reasonable' time frame, we'll be ordinary enough, for sure.