A thread for reference - Assault Weapons

[Wickerman]

It would be instructive to me, at the very least, if we could have a calm discussion (hee-hee, insert the strains of Lennon's Imagine) of:

1. What is in the Assault Weapon's Bill

2. Why do some folks find those weapons listed not deserving of the title Assault Weapons and not worthy of banning. Include the differences of semi and automatic weapons

3. What weapons, if any, should be banned.

I do think we could have a serious thread here that might be instructive. My hope is that we could then have a reference that folks could link back to when they want to chastise folks for not knowing what an assault weapon actually is, or, when they want to discuss the merits of the Assault Weapon Ban.

In the words of the man most of us here consider the worst president ever, edumacate me,

thanks

Lunabush

PS - edited to say that since this is MY thread I am going to be intolerant of any of the usual back and forth crap - either side. Derogatory remarks WILL be deleted.

[slackmaster]

1. There's more than one bill

I searched http://thomas.loc.gov for the phrase "assault weapon" and got nine hits.

IMO here are the ones that have relevance to the discussion, with my brief analysis:

1 . Assault Weapons Ban Reauthorization Act of 2003 (Introduced in Senate) - S.1034.IS

This is simply a re-authorization of the present 10-year moratorium, making it permanent.

2 . Assault Weapon Ban Enhancement Act of 2003 (Introduced in House) - H.R.143.IH

Brain-dead attempt to close perceived "loopholes" in the present ban. Would change the law so that a thumbhole stock is considered to be the same as a pistol grip (which present regulations already do), and would make ANY imported firearm that accepts a detachable magazine or uses .22 caliber ammunition an assault weapon. That would include my humble 5-shot Romanian bolt-action .22 military training rifle.

Does not address the expiration of the present AWB.

3 . Assault Weapons Ban and Law Enforcement Protection Act of 2003 (Introduced in Senate) - S.1431.IS

Would make the present moratorium permanent. Would specifically add the US M1 Carbine and Ruger Mini-14 to the list of AWs. Would potentially add ANY firearm originally intended for military use to the list regardless of its configuration.

On edit: Would reduce the "evil feature" count from two to one, thus covering a large number of "post-ban" firearms. This would make federal law similar to California's AWB.

I think it's a non-starter because of the potential impact on tens of millions of people who own curios and relics or a Mini-14, or a post-ban version of popular firearms like the AR-15. I estimate about 90% of the AR-15 rifles in circulation are post-bans.

4 . Assault Weapons Ban and Law Enforcement Protection Act of 2003 (Introduced in House) - H.R.2038.IH

Essentially identical to S.1431.

[alwynsw]

2. I'll address question #2 since slackmaster did sucha good job on #1

2. Why do some folks find those weapons listed not deserving of the title Assault Weapons and not worthy of banning. Include the differences of semi and automatic weapons

Many of the firearms, while not specifically listed by name, that should not be banned are semi-automatic sporting rifles that "look" like assault weapons. Some of the looks issue included folding or collapsible stocks and pistol grips on rifles and shotguns.

The main purposes behind these stock types and grips are convenience and ease of use. Fold or collapse the stock and a rifle or shotgun fits more easily in a car trunk, for example. It's more compact when folded, therefore easier to walk through brush or climb with when hunting. The pistol grip adds stability for some. It's a near necessity for some with handicaps such as arthritis because it fits the hand nore naturally.

Semi-automatic weapons are self loading between shots. When the firearm is discharged, the action cycles, discarding the spent casing and inserting an fresh cartridge into the chamber and cocking the firing mechanis. One trigger pull - one shot.

Automatic or select fire firearms will do one of two things in addition to firing in a semi-automatic mode: fire a predetermined number of rounds (usually 3) with one trigger pull or continue firing until the ammunition is depleted so lond as the trigger is depressed. The firing stops only when the trigger is released or the ammunition is depleted.

Unless a weapon is automatic or select fire, it is not an assault weapon. Assault weapons, by current definition must be on of those two things. Simply because a firearm is made to resemble a true assault weapon is not sufficient grounds for banning.

Under current law, assault weapons are not banned. It's a pain to go through the background checks and permitting procedures, but if you've got the money and meet the criteria you can own an assault rifle. You just can't buy a rifle made since 1989 that LOOKS like an assault rifle in the eyes of the AWB's framers.

Most of us could write a book about both parts of question #2. I have given nothing more that the tiniest bit of information and options for it in consideration of my poor tyoing skills and bandwidth (yea, I care about bandwidth, right).

[Superfly]

3. I'll address question #3

No weapons should be banned. Criminals who use weapons in the execution of their crimes should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and convicted without the possibility of parole or other special programs.

[DonP]

4. Select Fire, or true full auto assault weapons ...

are out there and can be owned in certain states. (Not Illinois of course, my own dear home) But ...

The 1934 National Firearms Act (NFA) put severe restrictions on onwership of these. Earning the ability to have one requires the same level of background check you get with a military TS clearance. That clearance also includes the permission of your local chief law enforcement officer and often takes six months or so to get.

Then a $200 transfer fee to the Feds for each one you purchase.

But with true select fire assault weapons (M-16 A2 for example), selling for $8,000 to $12,0000 each, it can get to be a very expensivre hobby very quickly.

Some folks use the term assualt weapon and machine gun almost interchangeably hoping, IMHO to confuse the average person on the street and to get them to think that if the AWB isn't renewed that your home town will be flooded with punks with machine guns. (Kind of an AK's and Uzi's and Guns, Oh My!)

A lot of folks own the semi auto version of military hardware for the same reason people own a Hummer, H2 or a Jeep Wrangler. Both versions of a military hardware that no one truly "needs", but because they want to and have the ability financially to indulge themselves.

In the case of the AR-15 versions, civilian model of the M-16, they are also used extensively for national marksmanship competitions. at places like Camp Perry, Ohio.

[FeebMaster]

7. It should be noted

that the reason machine guns are so expensive is that in 1986 Reagan banned future civilian manufacture of machine guns. Any machine gun made after the cutoff date in 1986 can only be transfered to a government agency.

The civilian supply is frozen at around a quarter million machine guns. That's why something like a Sten, which probably costs about $20 to manufacture, will probably easily bring over $1000 on the market today. (I don't own any, so I don't know what they go for these days. It's been almost 18 years, now, since the ban. The prices are going to keep climbing).

Eventually, when the last pre-'86 machine gun breaks, which granted, might take a hundred years or more, civilian ownership of machine guns will effectively be banned completely.

[RoeBear]

5. 3. What weapons, if any, should be banned.

My thoughts; I'd keep the requirements for true machine guns as they are currently, even though I realize that I'm being a bit hypocritical by doing that.

I'd dump the AWB. I can't imagine a crime that has been stopped because someone couldn't get their hands on a particular type of gun, they just substitute some other gun in it's place.

[MrBenchley]

6. Here are the proposals:

The Feinstein bill, S. 1034, basically re-ups the previous ban and adds to it a ban on high capacity magazine imports.
The previous ban covered:
"The term `semiautomatic assault weapon' means--
`(A) any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms in any caliber, known as--
`(i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models);
`(ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil;
`(iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC-70);
`(iv) Colt AR-15;
`(v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC;
`(vi) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9, and M-12;
`(vii) Steyr AUG;
`(viii) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; and
`(ix) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12;
`(B) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of--
`(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
`(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
`(iii) a bayonet mount;
`(iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and
`(v) a grenade launcher;
`(C) a semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of--
`(i) an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;
`(ii) a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;
`(iii) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand without being burned;
`(iv) a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; and
`(v) a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm; and
`(D) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of--
`(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
`(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
`(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and
`(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine.'. "

It is currently bottled up in committee by the GOP. Cosponsors are Barbara Boxer, Lincoln Chafee, Hillary Clinton, Mike DeWine, Dick Durbin, Jim Jeffords, Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, Frank Lautenberg, Carl Levin, John Reed, and Charles Schumer.

Also in the Senate, Frank Lautenberg has introduced S. 1461, which covers:
"(A) The following rifles or copies or duplicates thereof:
`(i) AK, AKM, AKS, AK-47, AK-74, ARM, MAK90, Misr, NHM 90, NHM 91, SA 85, SA 93, VEPR;
`(ii) AR-10;
`(iii) AR-15, Bushmaster XM15, Armalite M15, or Olympic Arms PCR;
`(iv) AR70;
`(v) Calico Liberty;
`(vi) Dragunov SVD Sniper Rifle or Dragunov SVU;
`(vii) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, or FNC;
`(viii) Hi-Point Carbine;
`(ix) HK-91, HK-93, HK-94, or HK-PSG-1;
`(x) Kel-Tec Sub Rifle;
`(xi) M1 Carbine;
`(xii) Saiga;
`(xiii) SAR-8, SAR-4800;
`(xiv) SKS with detachable magazine;
`(xv) SLG 95;
`(xvi) SLR 95 or 96;
`(xvii) Steyr AUG;
`(xviii) Sturm, Ruger Mini-14;
`(xix) Tavor;
`(xx) Thompson 1927, Thompson M1, or Thompson 1927 Commando; or
`(xxi) Uzi, Galil and Uzi Sporter, Galil Sporter, or Galil Sniper Rifle (Galatz).
`(B) The following pistols or copies or duplicates thereof:
`(i) Calico M-110;
`(ii) MAC-10, MAC-11, or MPA3;
`(iii) Olympic Arms OA;
`(iv) TEC-9, TEC-DC9, TEC-22 Scorpion, or AB-10; or
`(v) Uzi.
`(C) The following shotguns or copies or duplicates thereof:
`(i) Armscor 30 BG;
`(ii) SPAS 12 or LAW 12;
`(iii) Striker 12; or
`(iv) Streetsweeper.
`(D) A semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine, and that has--
`(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
`(ii) a threaded barrel;
`(iii) a pistol grip;
`(iv) a forward grip; or
`(v) a barrel shroud.
`(E)(i) Except as provided in clause (ii), a semiautomatic rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
`(ii) Clause (i) shall not apply to an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber rimfire ammunition.
`(F) A semiautomatic pistol that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine, and has--
`(i) a second pistol grip;
`(ii) a threaded barrel;
`(iii) a barrel shroud; or
`(iv) the capacity to accept a detachable magazine at a location outside of the pistol grip.
`(G) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
`(H) A semiautomatic shotgun that has--
`(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
`(ii) a pistol grip;
`(iii) the ability to accept a detachable magazine; or
`(iv) a fixed magazine capacity of more than 5 rounds.
`(I) A shotgun with a revolving cylinder.
`(J) A frame or receiver that is identical to, or based substantially on the frame or receiver of, a firearm described in any of subparagraphs (A) through (I) or (L).
`(K) A conversion kit.
`(L) A semiautomatic rifle or shotgun originally designed for military or law enforcement use, or a firearm based on the design of such a firearm, that is not particularly suitable for sporting purposes, as determined by the Attorney General. In making the determination, there shall be a rebuttable presumption that a firearm procured for use by the United States military or any Federal law enforcement agency is not particularly suitable for sporting purposes, and a firearm shall not be determined to be particularly suitable for sporting purposes solely because the firearm is suitable for use in a sporting event.'.
(b) RELATED DEFINITIONS- Section 921(a) of such title is amended by adding at the end the following:
`(36) BARREL SHROUD- The term `barrel shroud' means a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel of a firearm so that the shroud protects the user of the firearm from heat generated by the barrel, but does not include a slide that encloses the barrel, and does not include an extension of the stock along the bottom of the barrel which does not encircle or substantially encircle the barrel.
`(37) CONVERSION KIT- The term `conversion kit' means any part or combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a firearm into a semiautomatic assault weapon , and any combination of parts from which a semiautomatic assault weapon can be assembled if the parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.
`(38) DETACHABLE MAGAZINE- The term `detachable magazine' means an ammunition feeding device that can readily be inserted into a firearm.
`(39) FIXED MAGAZINE- The term `fixed magazine' means an ammunition feeding device contained in, or permanently attached to, a firearm.
`(40) FOLDING OR TELESCOPING STOCK- The term `folding or telescoping stock' means a stock that folds, telescopes, or otherwise operates to reduce the length, size, or any other dimension, or otherwise enhances the concealability, of a firearm.
`(41) FORWARD GRIP- The term `forward grip' means a grip located forward of the trigger that functions as a pistol grip.
`(42) PISTOL GRIP- The term `pistol grip' means a grip, a thumbhole stock, or any other characteristic that can function as a grip.
`(43) THREADED BARREL- The term `threaded barrel' means a feature or characteristic that is designed in such a manner to allow for the attachment of a firearm as defined in section 5845(a) of the National Firearms Act (26 U.S.C. 5845(a)).'.
It has NO sunset clause, makes it a felony to transfer one without a background check, bans the imprt of high capacity magazines, AND requires the attorney general to make a public report on these guns’ use in crimes. Co-sponsors of this bill are those Daniel Akaka, Barbara Boxer, Hillary Clinton, Jon Corzine, John Kerry, Barbara Mikulski, John Reed, Paul Sarbanes, Charles Schumer. Needless to say, this is bottled up in committee too by the GOP and their scummy friends.


In the House, Carolyn McCarthy has introduced H.R. 2038, which is basically identical to the Lautenberg bill. Her co-sponsors are: Neil Abercrombie, Gary Ackerman, Bob Andrews, Xavier Becerra, Howard Berman, Tim Bishop, Earl Blumenauer, Bob Brady, Corrine Brown, Lois Capps, Mike Capuano, Ben Cardin, Julia Carson, Ed Case, Bill Clay, John Conyers, Joe Crowley, Elijah Cummings, Danny Davis, Diana DeGette, Bill Delahunt, Rosa DeLauro, and Peter Deutsch.
Other co-sponsors are Rahm Emanuel, Eliot Engel, Anna Eshoo, Sam Farr, Chaka Fattah, Bob Filner, Barney Frank, Dick Gephardt, Charles Gonzalez, Raul Grijalva, Luis Gutierrez, Jane Harman, Alcee Hastings, Joseph Hoeffel, Rush Holt, Mike Honda, Steny Hoyeer, Rep Steve Israel, Jesse L., Jackson, Jr. Sheila Jackson-Lee, Eddie Bernice Johnson, Stephanie Tubbs Jones, Patrick Kennedy, Gerald Kleczka, Dennis Kucinich, Jim Langevin, Tom Lantos, John Larson, Barbara Lee, John Lewis, Bill Lipinski, Zoe Lofgren, Nita Lowey, Ed Markey, Robert Matsui, Betty McCollum, Jim McDermott, James McGovern, Marty Meehan, and Gregory Meeks.
And other co-sponsors are Rep Robert Menendez, Juanita Millender-McDonald, George Miller, James Moran, Jerrold Nadler, Grace Napolitano, Eleanor Holmes Norton, John Olver, Major Owens, Frank Pallone, Bill Pascrell, Ed Pastor, Donald Payne, David Price, Charles Rangel, Steve Rothman, Lucille Roybal-Allard, Dutch Ruppersberger, Bobby Rush, Martin Sabo, Linda Sanchez, Loretta Sanchez, Janice Schakowsky, Adam Schiff, Jose Serrano, Chris Shays, Brad Sherman, Louise Slaughter, Chris Smith, Hilda Solis, Pete Stark, Ellen Tauscher, John Tierney,. Edolphus Towns, Chris Van Hollen, Nydia Velazquez, Maxine Waters, Diane Watson, Mel Watt, Henry Waxman, Tony Weiner, Bob Wexler, Lynn Woolsey, and Albert Wynn.

[Wickerman]

17. I got most of the Senate names

any idea of how this breaks out Repub / Dem in the House?

[MrBenchley]

18. As nearly as I can tell

All 108 are Democrats...

[Wickerman]

8. Thanks, gang for an informative and pleasant thread

I've enjoyed learning about this often discussed issue, AND thus far not having to read a lot of name calling and backbiting. Even though I grew up rural and was around guns and then was in the military for a 4 year enlistment and an extension of 18 months, I have been fairly ignorant of the gun laws and design of late. All the posting here have been helpful.

Question - are AK-47's true assualt weapons? Also, are they as prolific as Rap songs and the drive shooting reports we are hearing about again report them to be?

[slackmaster]

9. A real AK-47 is legally a machinegun therefore not an AW

Because it can fire full-auto.

Semiautomatic variants can be AWs or not depending on their configuration.

Also, are they as prolific as Rap songs and the drive shooting reports we are hearing about again report them to be?

Legally-owned ones probably number in the low thousands. Some were brought back from Vietnam as war relics and got legalized during the brief NFA amnesty in 1968.

Illegally imported ones do exist. About 10 years ago a whole shipping container full of Chinese ones got seized at a California port. There may be many thousands in circulation. Nobody knows for sure.

[Wickerman]

13. so, unless one of the amnested 'nam era weapons

an AK-47 would be illegal to possess?

[Columbia]

14. Not necessarily

The National Firearms Act of 1934 allows possession of fully-automatic weapons as long as they are registered with a $200 tax and they are allowed in your state. There are other laws (Gun Control Act of 1968 & Firearms Owners Protection Act of 1986) governing these weapons as well, but basically, yes an AK-47 is legal to own.

[slackmaster]

15. Close but not the whole picture

It's possible some were imported for the civilian market before 1986 and are transferrable, but the number would be very low.

A licensed machinegun manufacturer or Special Occupational Taxpayer can legally assemble and keep a "post-1986 dealer sample" AK and I'm sure that hundreds or even thousands do, but those are not transferrable except to law-enforcement agencies.

Generally if some punk (e.g. the Los Angeles bank robbers) has a selective-fire AK the weapon was never legal to possess in the US.

[DonP]

16. The AK designation is thrown around a lot.

A real AK-47 or AK-74 (different calibers later model) are only select fire (capable of full auto machine gun capability).

The news media, out of ignorance usually, and some groups, with their own agenda, tend to designate any Kalishnikov looking weapon as an AK-47. Same goes for the UZI.

There are a lot of semi auto only versions out there that share the cosmetic look but none of the full auto capability.

The ones you hear about being used in "drive by's", using full auto, are illegal by every measurement.

Converting one of the semi auto AK's or AR's to full auto is a fairly complicated machining process calling for a fairly high skill level with a milling machine and some specific and very illegal parts.

It is even against the law to own an AR-15 and M-16 parts at the same time. The BATFE has held that if you own an AR-15 and even have the bolt or trigger group from an M-16 in your possession, not even in the gun, you are guilty of violating the NFA of 1934 and can be prosecuted. (10 years at club fed.)

If you look at most of the stipulations on the existing AWB as it sits today (posted above) the focus in on what some folks consider cosmetics, no more than 2 of the following; e.g. bayonet lug, flash hider, barrel shroud etc.

[Columbia]

10. The wide varying definitions of assault weapons

Makes it very difficult to ascertain just how often they are used in crime. Most of the gunners here will agree that a fully automatic true AK-47 is an assault weapon while the semi-automatic version may not be. However, there are some groups that call an assault weapon ANY weapon that is *capable* of accepting a magazine of more than 10 rounds or has any offending cosmetic feature (including pistols and shotguns). This makes it extremely difficult when one compares statistics between studies.

Here is a good site on what guns are most often used in crime: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/guic.pdf. Concealable handguns of all varieties are most common. They do give an inmate statistic saying that less than 1% of 8% of inmates who possessed military-style weapons them has used them in a commission of a crime.

[slackmaster]

11. Assault weapon is strictly a legal term

I would call a real AK-47 an assault rifle because of its intended military application.

[Columbia]

12. I agree

[Hammie]

19. Here goes.

Assault Weapon Bill: I assume you mean the 1994 Crime Bill that outlawed full capacity magazines and weapons with more than 3 scary features. For rifles the scary features are semi-auto, pistol grip, detachable mag, flash suppressor, threaded barrel, bayonet lug, and folding or collapsible stock. Weapons with more than the maximum number of scary features were christened "Assault Weapon" and banned. It is worth noting that the term assault weapon is a legal term and not a technical one. Until the category was created by legislative fiat, it simply did not exist.

Why they shouldn't be outlawed: The obvious reason is that it is offensive to the constitution of the united states of america. However since the constitution is a trivial impediment to expansive govt. power we can disregard that argument. The practical reason is that they are not now, nor have they been, prone to criminal misuse. They are hardly ever used in crime. The vast majority of guns used in crime are handguns. They appeal mostly to hobbyists either because of their use in competitive events or historical interest. They are generally safer than other long guns due to very durable mechanisms (in their military form they must withstand the rigors of full auto fire), conspicuous safety switches, and trigger pulls that are long and heavy. They are generally chambered for a relatively low powered cartridge, again because the rifles they are patterned after are capable of full auto fire and for controllability are only chambered for lower powered cartridges. The .223 Remington is generally considered to be insufficiently lethal for deer sized game.

Which weapons should be banned?: No personal arms should be banned. Reckless or criminal behavior should be banned and severely punished. Peaceable, law-abiding, citizens should be able to own whatever personal arms they choose.