20 Arrested As Feds Bust Major Gun Ring - 300 AK-47s Seized Before Making Way To Mexican Drug Cartel

[jpak]

http://www.kpho.com/valleynews/26908225/detail.html

Federal agents arrested nearly 20 people they said were buying guns in the Valley and taking them to drug cartels in Mexico.

"Seventeen defendants in five different cases involving over 300 weapons heading to Mexico," said U.S. Attorney Dennis Burke.

It's a lot of numbers that add up to a lot of illegal activity.

Officials said straw buyers, the guys who are the face for the purchase, head into Valley gun shops and buy dozens of assault weapons without a second glance.

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[northoftheborder]

1. what state was this?

[jpak]

2. Arizona - where all the responsible law abiding gun stuff happens

yup

[jeepnstein]

3. Good job!

Straw buying is against the law and they should be prosecuted.

[Remmah2]

4. Was it Bloomberg's people?

Or the Nassau county DA?

[jpak]

5. This was in AZ - the Long Island assault weapon runners are a different case

yup

[benEzra]

6. About time. Why haven't they been doing this all along?

*EVERY* U.S. civilian-market gun seized in Mexico has a paper trail leading to the original purchaser, who was required to submit ID and sign various forms under penalty of perjury.

The U.S. guns that come via State Department approved contracts would be harder to trace to the point of diversion, but for civilian-market guns it should be pretty easy.

[jpak]

7. Because it would "infringe" on binging gun buyers

yup

[dmallind]

8. Not at all.

Stopping people buying guns, and tracking guns back to them if they end up as part of illegal gun smuggling are two very different things. Most gun owners have no problem with, and support, prosecuting illegal straw buyers.

[benEzra]

9. Every single U.S.-market civilian gun seized in Mexico has a serial number.

That serial number is associated with a BATFE Form 4473 filled out by the original buyer, who had to fill out a form under penalty of perjury and produce a government issued ID.

It is trivially simple to trace those guns to the original purchaser and connect the dots. Of course, it would require actual criminal investigation, rather than pointless grandstanding against people you hate, so I guess it would be Less Fun. Or something.

Glad to see the ATF is on this, though.

[jpak]

10. I hate straw-buying gun runners and the assholes who sell to them

yup

No one needs to buy a dozen AKs at once - from the same dealer - day after day

nope

[spin]

12. We need to make the punishment fit the crime ...

the penalty for the straw purchase of a firearm should be draconian - so severe that it would make the practice obsolete as no one would be willing to take the chance of being caught for the small profit they make in the transaction.

Also if the weapon was used in a crime, the straw purchaser should be charged as an accessory to the crime.

[beevul]

14. The problem, with that...

"the penalty for the straw purchase of a firearm should be draconian - so severe that it would make the practice obsolete as no one would be willing to take the chance of being caught for the small profit they make in the transaction."

The problem with that, is it would simply drive up the profit.

Theres always a relationship between the penalty and the profit, where things like this are concerned.

I tend to agree with "charged as an accessory" though.

[spin]

24. You may be right. If you drive up the profit motive ...

guns will be smuggled into this country from other nations such as China and perhaps even Mexico.

The result would be far more dangerous weapons on our streets.

[AtheistCrusader]

17. So, we'll end it, like we've ended Murder then?

Better fix: take away the profit motive. End the war on drugs.

[spin]

21. I totally agree ...

We lost the War on Drugs in the 70s.

Banning and prohibition always fails.

[jeepnstein]

13. A dozen roses, dozen AK's what's the diff?

As long as the buyer is not breaking the law by possessing the arms it's perfectly acceptable. "Need" has nothing to do with it.

All it takes is a simple knock on the door of the purchaser to determine whether the rifles have already been passed off to someone else or being hoarded for the impending Zombie Apocalypse.

[jpak]

44. The only "need" for buying 12 AKs at the same time is straw purchasing for criminals/gun runners

No one can safely handle or fire 12 AKs at the same time,

That's just plain fucking stupid

yup!

[jeepnstein]

45. Says who?

If someone wants to stick a few AK's in their safe whose business is it of mine? Free country and all that.

Like I said before, as long as they buy them and hang on to them I don't know what the moral outrage is all about. Straw buying is illegal as is dealing without a license.

[dmallind]

18. You don't see the incongruity?

Why does it necessarily entail straw purchases to buy multiple guns? You really think those activities are necessarily contingent?

[benEzra]

20. If you were after multiple-purchase reporting requirements

and enforcement of laws against straw purchase, you'd be able to find common ground. That's not a big deal from my standpoint. But that's not really what you want.

Instead, you want to ban the most popular guns in America, from the people who aren't the problem. And you'll keep jousting with that windmill even though doing so prevents you from addressing the problems you purport to care about.

[one-eyed fat man]

Hey, pay attention

The dealers been selling at the ATF's behest! Dealers called in the suspicious buyers and it was the ATF told them go ahead make the sale. But nevermind, when they lose track of the guns and crook buyers you claim it's a lie too.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=379350&mesg_id=379402

[Straw Man]

25. I'm not so sure about that.

Every single U.S.-market civilian gun seized in Mexico has a serial number.

That serial number is associated with a BATFE Form 4473 filled out by the original buyer, who had to fill out a form under penalty of perjury and produce a government issued ID.

Unless those straw buyers are angling to be on "America's Dumbest Criminals," they'd be grinding off the serial numbers before the guns leave their hands.

I completely agree that this is the kind of the thing that should be investigated and pursued, but I don't think the sellers are chargeable. Guilty of bad judgment, yes, but the criminal culpability is the buyer's. That's just the way it is, unless the seller colluded with the buyer in falsifying the 4473 info.

EDIT TO ADD: OK, I see now that the sellers were the ones who alerted the Feds in the first place. They make the sale and then the straw buyers get popped for illegally transporting/transferring. Win-win.

[Starboard Tack]

27. I would imagine the serial numbers would be filed off before delivery

[GreenStormCloud]

33. Actually the numbers are drilled out.

When the numbers are stamped on the gun it compresses the metal underneath. Even with completely filed off numbers forensice methods can read the greater density and get the serial numbers. Crooks have learned to drill out the numbers to remove the metal behind the numbers.

[Starboard Tack]

35. Makes sense

[benEzra]

36. Don't most guns have a second serial number where it cannot be accessed

without extensive trouble? I seem to recall noticing that my pistol had a second copy of the serial number under the rear sight when I upgraded to Trijicons, but I may be misremembering. That would be an easy way to address serial number removal, if the gun control lobby actually cared about that issue.

The current arrests certainly demonstrate that tracing and tracking is possible, as did the tracing of the allegedly "walked" civilian rifle used to murder Border Patrol agent Brian Terry. I think doing more tracing of seized guns would be a good thing.

[GreenStormCloud]

37. I don't know. It would be a good idea. N/T

[X_Digger]

38. Many guns have multiple serial numbers- hence the 'matching numbers' you see in used gun ads.

For instance, my XD has one serial number plate on the frame, the same number on the slide, and the same number on the barrel.

[Straw Man]

40. A quick check of a Saiga AK variant...

...reveals an eight-digit serial number on the side of the receiver and a three-digit number that appears both on the bolt carrier and the bolt itself. That number corresponds to the last three digits of the number on the receiver. The number on the receiver could be "drilled out," but it wouldn't be possible to drill through the bolt or bolt carrier and still have a functioning firearm. Still, a three-digit number can't be a unique identifier unless the total production of that model is under 1000, not to mention the fact that those parts could be swapped between guns.

Traceable? Good question.

[benEzra]

42. Ditto for many of mine. I think it would be a reasonable requirement for new guns

if it's not already, and should be fairly easy to implement, as long as idiots didn't get involved and make the regs too specific about the locations (i.e., an AR's numbers would need to be confined to the lower receiver, etc. due to swappable uppers).

[X_Digger]

43. My ARs only have one.

Considering I built them from a bare receiver, one in 223 and the other in 22LR, I know every little piece.

I assume it'd be the same way for any firearm that's built from parts.

[AtheistCrusader]

15. Bullshit.

[beevul]

11. They've got to do something...

They've got to do something before the hearings start, to try make their previous actions, and lack there of, look justified.

Of course theres still the matter of the 5000 previously missing guns...


And the death of BPA terry...

[AtheistCrusader]

16. Yep, there's going to be a FLURRY of arrests NOW.

Oh shit guys, we need to DO SOMETHING NOW.

So they'll do some of what they should have been doing all along.

[beevul]

19. Exactly.

"But look at what we've been doing!" (Since Terry was killed and we knew our nuts were in a vice)

[Katya Mullethov]

39. And on cue ......they are deporting the witnesses to the Brian Terry murder

" It's so crazy , it just might work . "

[Atypical Liberal]

22. Something just doesn't add up.

Look, if I'm wrong about this, I'll be the first to admit it.

But this just doesn't add up.

Civilian AK-47 variants today cost upwards of $600.

But in Somalia you can buy US made M16s, fully automatic, for $200. You can buy fully-automatic AK-47s for $150.

http://current.com/shows/vanguard/76356342_wanna-buy-an-ak-47.htm

Why would these people spend more money to buy semi-automatic versions of these weapons through US channels when fully-automatic versions can be purchased on the global market for much less?

Remember, these are the multi-national corporations that are building submarines to traffic their drugs across oceans.

It just doesn't add up.

Also, I'll note that the video in the article said that the weapons shown were not the actual weapons sold, just ones shown for an example.

I want to see some evidence before I'm willing to believe this.

[friendly_iconoclast]

26. Maybe these are the smaller players without the connections of the big boys.

Or just dumbasses. Or, as you suggested, a fit up.

I'm with you on wanting to see more about this.

[jeepnstein]

28. Or some of them are...

otherwise law-abiding Mexicans who want to arm themselves but don't have access to the long smuggling routes. It's my understanding that quite a few Mexicans are armed even though the arms didn't come from the government's pro shop in Mexico City.

And some of the AK's were probably heading to the various bandits, smugglers, coyotes, outlaws, and kidnappers that are turning Mexico into a dump.

[provis99]

23. they arrested people legally buying guns?

What a bunch of anti-gun fascists.

[jeepnstein]

29. Not really.

If someone has a stack of 4473's with his Juan Hancock on them and somehow doesn't have any AK's to show the guys from ATFE when they come calling, it's a pretty good bust. Straw purchasing is illegal. It's also illegal to derive part of your income from selling arms without an FFL.

[Starboard Tack]

30. You're kidding, right?

[WatsonT]

31. No amount of law enforcement ever made a lasting dent

in bootlegging during prohibition.

All it did was increase violence and maybe push some new gangs/leaders to the top to replace old ones.

Whereas ending prohibition effectively wiped out the entire nasty business.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[ileus]

34. I hope they can start busting some of the straw buyers.

[rl6214]

41. If they are breaking the law, throw the book at them

But we don't need new laws.