Unintentional death and injury, just the price we must pay.

[russ1943]

Goshen News, Goshen, IN February 26, 2011

Seven-year-old Karlee Byler, described by her friends as "the ornery angel," is being remembered today for her smiles, her hugs and her infectious laugh.

The adventurous girl who loved riding four-wheelers, her stuffed animals and her Nintendo DS was killed Friday afternoon when her father’s handgun accidentally discharged, according to a family spokesperson....... Monica Chupp, family spokesperson, said Saturday that Karlee’s father Jay returned home from work Friday evening while his wife and daughters Brooklyn, 10, and Karlee, 7, were outside playing in the snow. Jay joined in the fun and after about 20 minutes, they all went inside. While Jay was helping his daughters take off their boots, his handgun fell out of his coat pocket and discharged, the bullet striking Karlee in the head. Chupp said that Jay is licensed to carry a handgun and that he had placed it in his coat pocket to carry it inside.

http://goshennews.com/local/x72345263/Family-spokesperson-Shooting-was-tragic-accident

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

1. Unholstered gun in pocket? Negligent.

If it didn't have a holster he should have either unloaded it or kept it secure in his hand or otherwise.
I'm curious as to what kind of firearm it was. Most modern pistols are very drop safe.

No amount of legislation in the world will stop stupid people from doing stupid things.

[cognoscere]

21. Do you know if that includes modern versions of the 1911?

I know for decades the only thing between the primer, firing pin, and hammer was air. Personally, I go by the rule that if there is no round in the chamber, no bullet can possibly come out the muzzle.

[RSillsbee]

23. Most modern M1911A1s have a firing pin block

Personally, I go by the rule that if there is no round in the chamber, you are carrying a very expensive rock

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

40. my 1911-A1 uses an intertial fiing pin. The firing pin literally is not long enough to reach primer.

The hammer strikes the firing pin and then the momentum of it strikes the pin. There is also a spring to stop the pin from inadvertantly hitting the primer.

[Flyboy_451]

44. Almost every current production 1911 employs a firing pin block

But even on the original 1911, the firing pin is held away from the primer by a firing pin return spring. The only way for the pin to reach the primer is by traveling forward as a result of inertia from the hammer striking it. The hammer cannot "push" the firing pin to the primer as the firing pin is not long enough to reach it. Stories of 1911s being dropped and discharging are based on the theory that if a 1911 were dropped and landed on the muzzle, inertia could cause the firing pin to travel forward and strike the primer.

In tests conducted, the gun had to be dropped from a considerable height (more than 8 feet seems familiar, but I would have to verify that), and it had to land almost perfectly vertical on the muzzle for this phenomena to occur. Even those without a firing pin safety are very unlikely to discharge.

JW

[Ken_Fish]

45. Series 80 (70's) used a block.

even without one if carried cocked and locked it was not an issue.

[Flyboy_451]

46. Series 80 and 70 only refers to Colt

I was speaking in more general terms as various manufacturers employ different methods. As an example, Kimber's block is actuated by the grip safety rather than the trigger mechanism (I much prefer this setup over the colt system), and STI guns do not utilize a firing pin block.

Interestingly, there are frame slot fillers available to fill the gap left when the series 80 parts are removed from Colt guns. This is a common modification on guns that are tuned and set up for competitive shooting rather than duty or defensive use. Makes tuning the trigger much easier and more reliable when you are trying to get minimum trigger travel.

JW

[Ken_Fish]

47. All the "carry" guns from Wilsons on down I have seen had

a block. STI is a race gun now any race setup may not be acceptable for carry.. That said I have a hard time seeing how a 1911 cocked could fire in a drop.

The cheapest RRA and springers use it. That said I dont know the 1911 platform that well.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

50. My, relatively modern, Springfield 1911-A1 "Loaded Series" does not have a firing pin block.

It all really depends on the actual pistol.

[Ken_Fish]

56. I'll stop before I get in over my head..

my main point was that the operator should be versed in the function of what he carries. If JMB designed a pistol to be carried condition 1, than carrying it hammer down on a live round may be a bad idea, may not.

Up to the owner to understand what he owns and to RTFM. Since I am not a 1911 guru I will stop before I step in poo.

When someone asks about a striker fired gun, I may speak louder...

They all depend on the owner to do his due diligence.

[GreenStormCloud]

63. It has a grip safety. If a hand is not holding the grip safety down it won't fire.

A 1911-A1 is drop safe.

[Callisto32]

76. This. N/T

[GreenStormCloud]

79. In fact the A1 in 1911-A1 is for the grip safety.

Browning originally designed the pistol for the Army without the grip safety. The Army, aware that combat soldiers would carry the pistol cocked and locked insisted that Brown redesign the gun with a grip safety. The A1 is for the modification to include the grip safety. The Army then accepted the design and a hundred years of history began.

[Flyboy_451]

100. that is not quite correct...

1911s have always had the grip safety. It's predecessor, the model 1905 lacked the grip safety. The 1905 was originally tested by the Army and they requested the grip safety as an added safety for the calvary. The addition of the grip safety and a lanyard ring was the birth of the 1911.

The A1 series incorporated a scallop cut behind the ejection port, larger sights that are easier to see, a change in the shape of the grip safety and hammer and, I believe, the addition of an arched mainspring housing, rather than the flat housing of the 1911.

JW

[Flyboy_451]

52. While STI guns are commonly thought of as "race guns"

A carry gun built on an STI frame has some great advantages, and not just in capacity. The STI polymer frame in a double stack configuration is actually thinner than the typical steel frame 1911 by about .100 of an inch. Not to mention the weight savings. All in all, it is one of my favorite platform to build on.

JW

[Ken_Fish]

55. Again, my knowledge of the 1911 is not expert..

I grew up shooting and compete with plastic guns. Nothing at all against them, they are excellent. My general point was the 1911, Glock, or M&P all rely on the operator to handle them in a safe manner.

That said I have seen guys drop glocks and 1911 guns, no problems. Just ego bruise and a DQ. I have never seen a person carry a 1911 hammer down safety off. That could be an issue minus a pin block, but that is not how the weapon was designed to be carried.

This will probably get me no friends, I have observed more problems with failure to go to battery or other feed related issues with 1911 (from cheap to >$4000 dollar customs) than with a box stock M&P or Glock.

[Flyboy_451]

61. i was not trying to sound argumentative

Or like I was harping, and if it was taken that way, I truly appologize. I was simply trying to be clear as to various approaches to a problem that is, in my view, not much of a problem to begin with, as well as offer up information that you may not have been aware of.

As to your comments with regards to failures with 1911 competition guns, I can and have explained some of the causes on other forums but will not bore everyone with such explanations here. I carry "combat Tupperware" as my duty sidearm, but I also own everything from Colt SSAs to Browning M2 belt fed machine guns. As you can imagine, I enjoy discussing the technical aspects of firearms in general, and the 1911 is certainly one of my favorite designs.

JW

[Ken_Fish]

65. Not at all

And agree with you on lack of problem. Have been looking at a sti project, something in 9 or 40. I was probably a bit hasty in my comment. There is a good bit I am not aware of on that design.

Regards.

[Hoyt]

2. According to those that promote public carrying, these things don't happen.

According to them, those with permits are better trained than the Lone Ranger. After all, they've watched a video or two, shot hundreds of paper targets, practiced fast drawing from wherever they tuck their weapons, etc. This just can't happen.

[slackmaster]

3. Bullshit

Nobody on this forum has ever seriously stated that people with concealed weapons permits aren't prone to human error.

[Hoyt]

7. Sorry, it is not "human error" to pack a shooting apparatus, and be surprised if it goes off.

The friggin error, was carrying the dang thing in the first place.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rrneck]

48. People who carry firearms perform a valueable public service.

They give people like you something to snark about. How would you fill your time otherwise. You should thank them.

[lawodevolution]

53. A tragic event much more rare than pool drownings is no argument to force law abiding

Citizens to not be able to defend themselves in public

[rl6214]

5. No one ever claimed negligent discharges don't happen

You can come all snarky and claim all sorts of crap, dosen't make it true. What you seem to make up in your mind has no actual fact behind it.

"better trained than the Lone Ranger. After all, they've watched a video or two, shot hundreds of paper targets, practiced fast drawing from wherever they tuck their weapons,"

Keep wringing your hands and whining.

[AtheistCrusader]

24. Strawman fallacy.

[Union Scribe]

71. You keep saying things like that, but you never have a link.

Why is that I wonder?

[WatsonT]

86. According to most strawmen

fire is unnecessary and should be banned.

[dmallind]

4. ND not AD but....yes.

Just like accidental/negligent drownings are the "price we have to pay" to have swimming pools, or bicycling accidents or negligent collisions are the "price we have to pay" for having bicycles. Do you seek to ban all activities that cause some risk?

[Hoyt]

10. Folks packing guns at public parks ain't any fun for the 300 MILLION who don't pack.

We'd be better off if the toters would leave them at home and deal with their fears rationally.

Why should we have to "pay a price" to allow a small number of people to carry in public?

Leave guns at home where they belong. You can grab them if the revolution comes.

[RamboLiberal]

19. How much blood is flowing in these parks from legal gun owners?

[Hoyt]

22. Rambo, it's not about blood flowing. It's about serenity, peaceful feelings, etc. Guns don't belong

I know the thought upsets you, but that is the way it is.

[AtheistCrusader]

26. You would never know if I was carrying concealed.

So go ahead and be peaceful and serene.

I will be too, unless I perceive a credible threat to human life, in which case I will cease being peaceful and serene.

[Hoyt]

27. Well, if it's my life, I'll handle it my way or with law enforcement. So keep it hidden/holstered.

Parks, restaurants, churches, nursery schools and many more places go better without guns.

[AtheistCrusader]

29. I'm not here to help YOU.

Not you specifically. But if I bumped into a situation where a person was in danger, I would do everything in my power to help. That includes any sort of distress.

If you truly want no assistance at all, please tell me your name, location, and physical description, lest I render first aid, CPR, or protection from any life threatening scenario, to you, personally, by mistake.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AtheistCrusader]

36. I carry a CPR mask along with my first aid kit, when I carry my firearm.

It is not unreasonable to assume that in any situation where I might need the gun, I might also need the other tools as well.

After all, to me, a firearm is simply the best tool available, to solve certain problems. That problem being; the initation of force by individuals against other individuals.

Since I cannot reasonably expect to recognize an initiation of force against another person in time to prevent all harm, it is reasonable to me to carry tools to repair and preserve an individual until advanced medical care can arrive on site.

[Callisto32]

78. AWESOME post, sir/madam.

[rl6214]

41. But my guess is, it would not give most of you the same sensation.

again with the juvenile insults, (or the lame attempt)

[Callisto32]

77. But law enforcment will bring guns.

Why doesn't that bother.

Why is a government man with a gun okay, but not a private one?

[jeepnstein]

80. You have issues.

If you think you're going to make a grab for my weapon you are insane.

[PavePusher]

34. Oh, we are disturbing your Wa...

Except that it's all your own angst... oops.

[X_Digger]

38. It's all about your FEEEELINGS.. so where's your rationality, again? n/t

[WatsonT]

88. Excellent, its good that you backed away from statistics

as those are solidly against you.

Instead go with feelings.

Guns make you feel sad. That can't be disputed.

Unfortunately though there is no guaranteed right to never be sad in the constitution.

So much like free speech often makes some uncomfortable, but is still tolerated, so too are guns to be tolerated despite your sadness.

[RamboLiberal]

94. Fine - you think guns don't belong

Then do something. Run for office on your platform. Bet you don't get elected.

Otherwise the law is the law is the law.

Lobby to change it if you don't like it.

Meanwhile the rest of us will follow what the law allows us.

[rl6214]

25. toters and packers

packers and toters.

I love the Packers, glad they won the Superbowl this year.

Grow up.

[Hoyt]

28. I did grow up. Used to target shoot, have a number of guns, etc. But I grew up. Never carried.

[rl6214]

The' I used to shoot, I own guns'

arguement?

Nope, try again.

[Hoyt]

33. Well I did, could also breakdown a 1911 blindfolded, 20 feet underwater. But don't believe carrying

Some people actually outgrow, or overcome, bad habits like gun obsession.

[RSillsbee]

64. And why , pray tell, does one need to break down a 1911 underwater?

Breaking it down is easy can you put it back to gether under the same circumstance?

[Hoyt]

67. Good lord, RS, do I have to say "reassemble." Thought that was implicit in "breakdown."

Why? Just for fun and to see if I could. Glad, I grew up.

[RSillsbee]

70. No It's not two seperate operations NT

[jeepnstein]

81. I don't believe you.

What you are saying about disassembling and reassembling a 1911 underwater is untrue. There's no way you could do it. You're just making that up like you are all your other "facts".

[X_Digger]

42. Ahh, the old chestnut.. "I'm not a bigot, I have {some kind of} friends!" n/t

[Hoyt]

49. And, you are "bigoted" against those who'd rather take a walk in public without gun toters around.

You guys kill me dragging up references to the real civil rights movement to promote guns in public agenda.

And, I have to admit, I'm against people carrying guns in public. If that is your definition of "bigoted" -- well, I'll admit it.

Personally, I don't equate your quest for gun domination as equivalent to the civil rights movement. We can talk when gun toters are lynched, denied a job, told they can't attend public colleges, etc., because of their choice to carry.

[lawodevolution]

54. I've never read a bigoted comment from x-digger but plenty from Hoyt

[Ken_Fish]

58. So people who choose to be Jews have limited rights.

I mean you can choose a different belief system or change you name. You cant change your race but you can change your beliefs to conform to peoples opinions. We just need some courts to back this position and that makes it "right".

Thats great you are against ccw, I am against clowns, mimes, and men wearing gym shorts where their balls may be visible..

Lets ban those.

[X_Digger]

59. I don't require your approval of my choices.

In the real world, I just smile and walk on by, knowing that how I choose to exercise my constitutionally protected rights isn't a decision that you get to make for me.

[beevul]

66. Wow. Just wow.

"We can talk when gun toters are...told they can't attend public colleges, etc., because of their choice to carry."


It seems to me thats exactly how you want things - gun toters told they can't attend public colleges because of their choice to carry.


Do you agree or disagree with the following statement:

Gun toters should be told they can't attend public colleges because of their choice to carry.


Waiting. Breathlessly.

[Hoyt]

68. If it were me, Beevul, I'd just leave the gun at home and go to college. Life is more than guns.

Governors standing in the doorway of public universities to prevent people from entering college is not the equivalent of being against folks packing in public.

[Union Scribe]

72. It's also more than being afraid of them.

Would it make you feel better if we all, individually, assured you we aren't going to shoot you?

[Hoyt]

87. Don't care whether you shoot me or not. Public carrying just sends a bad message.

Something carriers can't understand and/or couldn't care less about.

A campus is not a place for gun carriers.

[X_Digger]

90. Someone doesn't share your feelings and opinions? Stop the presses!

Tell me again why your opinions and how you feel should have more weight than anyone else's?

[Hoyt]

91. One advantage I have is that I'm not married to a gun, don't make money from them, don't need to

carrry, feel safe without one, etc. And, I can image life without one tucked away on my person. Something most of you guys can't claim.

But, in the end, it's just another opinion -- although one contrary to most carriers.

[friendly_iconoclast]

57. Are you claiming to represent "the 300 MILLION who don't pack"?

I seem to have missed the bit where you were appointed spokesperson for said group...

[Hoyt]

92. Not hardly. Just pointing out the vast multitudes who don't see/feel the need to pack in public.

And, many of those 300 million see public carriers as a blight on our society.

[Callisto32]

82. I have a LTCF in PA.

I also live deep in (black) bear country. We have a LOT of them. Like, I see bear on the roads about half as often as white tails, a lot.

With that background, I have a question for you.

If we were in a park, in adjacent areas, and I hear/see you being attacked by a bear, wouldn't it be nice if I had a revolver chambered for Dick Casull's masterful .454 cartridge?

I guess I am saying that some of us have a damn good reason to carry into parks.

[dmallind]

102. This happened at a public park?

no it didn't.

How many are killed by gun owners in such parks? How many by those who legally own them? Pretty close to zero - as is the risk that has you shaking in your poor wittle shoes.

[mcranor]

12. Let's talk about that price

How many Americans killed with guns in the US each year? 25,000? 50,000? The endless quibbling about the numbers is a distraction, but it's maybe a quarter of a million or more since 2003, no?

How many Americans were killed with guns in the WAR we waged over the same period? 4,400 or so.

A quarter of a million, man. A disgusting, fucking massacre.

mc

[GreenStormCloud]

15. You assume that if a gun wasn't available another tool would not have been substituted.

Half of those number are suicides. Take away their gun and they will simply find another method. If a murderer can't get to a gun, he can use a knife or club or fists. In my town the last four murders have been club, club, knife, knife.

[Hoyt]

16. Somehow, I just don't think a machete would have fallen out of the fool's coat and killed the girl.

[GreenStormCloud]

62. I was responding to post #12, not to the OP. N/T

[PavePusher]

35. And we should hold the law-abiding responsible...

for the actions of criminals and the suicidal and the careless?

Should we expand that sophistry to other objects as well?

[X_Digger]

43. Oh, you just mean *our* soldiers.. fuck the civilians, eh? Nice. n/t

[GreenStormCloud]

75. 40,000 a year die from poison.

How many Americans killed from poison in the US each year? 40,000! That's almost half a million in the last ten years.

How many Americans were killed with guns in the WAR we waged over the same period? 4,400 or so.

A half a million, man. A disgusting, fucking massacre.

[Euromutt]

84. "The endless quibbling about the numbers is a distraction" except when it suits your purpose

I love that tactic: throw out a number that's too high, and try to head off any argument by claiming the "quibbling about numbers is a distraction." In other words, you're making shit up and trying to preemptively deflect getting called on it, because it's not a quarter of a million, let alone more.

Moreover, some 55% of the total consists of suicides, and given that American suicide rates are unremarkable compared to those of other wealthy industrialized nations (and way lower than those of former Warsaw Pact member states), it's perfectly plausible that most (possibly all) of those deaths would have occurred by other means had firearms not been readily available.

[dmallind]

101. What a disjointed silly post

a) Of the 30K or so gun deaths per year since 2000 (rapidly declining) about 17k are suicides. I can name a dozen ways of killing myself if I were so inclined, but given access to guns I would choose that method for the certainty, speed, and lack of terrifying preamble. If I blow my head off with a shotgun or jump off thew Golden Gate bridge I am just as dead, but in the first case I do not have to face the terror and agony of drowning. If I wanted to die I would and could choose the latter given no guns, but why would I want to when a 12ga in the mouth is so much less painful and scary? It is both stupid and condescending to assume that the majority of gun deaths that are suicides would not happen absent guns - just check Japan's suicide rates and consider their almost total gun ban. That drops your number by more than half in one fell swoop.

b) We are talking here of accidental deaths - where guns make up 1100 of the 96000 such deaths annually - about 1/3 of the total caused by drowning - 3825 (quick - why don't you care about kids drowning 3 times as much?). The actual deaths comparable to those under discussion represent about one in 250,000 of the guns in the US - a spectacularly safe record about 3% that of the number of car deaths per car.

c) The remaining cause of gun deaths - homicides - are by and large predators attacking each other. Where such data are collected, typical results show 85-90% of murder victims are criminals themselves. Something about living by the sword...

d) Not only are war deaths utterly and distantly irrelevant, but guns are not the major cause of the US deaths in our conflicts since 2003.

So to recap - most US gun deaths are people who wish to die choosing the best method to make it quick and certain. Those killed by the intentional act of others are almost all criminals themselves experiencing a very predictable end to a career outside the law, and the tiny percentage who die in gun accidents is dwarfed by swimming pools let alone cars.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

11. A modern handgun that is properly maintained will not fire when dropped

If the story is true (and that's a big "if"), there was something wrong with the gun. It was either a primitive gun or was not in good working order.

The state of California has a very strict drop test for handguns to be offered for sale here. As far as I know, no gun has ever been rejected for sale here because it fired upon being dropped six feet onto hard concrete.

[RamboLiberal]

18. One other way these accidents happen is people grabbing

for gun as it is falling and getting finger in trigger. I've read of a number of dropped gun accidents happening in this manner.

Otherwise without the details of what brand of gun this is impossible to know if this was supposed to be a drop safe gun.

I concur most modern handguns will not fire when dropped.

[slackmaster]

39. My dad taught me not to try to catch a dropped knife or gun

Wise man, he was.

[Callisto32]

83. Good advice.

[GreenStormCloud]

13. The depends upon the date, make, and model.

Guns of MODERN design are drop safe. But not all guns made are of modern design. Some gun manufacturers still use old designs. Some guns are simply old.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GreenStormCloud]

9. Part of the price we pay: Child drowns.

Feb/20 Maryland Boy Drowns In Icy Lake http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Md-Boy-Drowns-In-Icy-Lake-116660609.html

Feb/16 Girl, 2, drowns in Pompano Beach backyard pool http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2011-02-20/news/fl-pompano-child-drowning-20110220_1_backyard-pool-sofia-sandra-king

Feb/22 Child drowns in Oro Valley http://www.kgun9.com/Global/story.asp?S=14046503

Feb/19 3-year-old boy drowns in Fort Lupton http://www.greeleytribune.com/article/20110219/NEWS/702199991/1002&parentprofile=1

Feb/19 4-year-old Gaffney girl drowns in pond http://www.goupstate.com/article/20110221/ARTICLES/102211008/1083/ARTICLES?Title=4-year-old-Gaffney-girl-drowns-in-pond

Feb/27 Toddler Drowns In Family Swimming Pool http://www.clickorlando.com/news/27015402/detail.html

[mcranor]

20. If a quarter-million people died in pools since 2003...

...would we change something about pools?

That's roughly the number of Americans killed with guns in the US in that time, no?

How many Americans were killed with guns in the WAR we waged over the same period? 4,400 or so.

A quarter of a million people. I say again: A disgusting, fucking massacre.

mc

[AtheistCrusader]

30. Easily half are suicides.

More than half, actually. Accidents alone should be less than 4,000, IIRC. Which probably compares favorably to child drownings. I will cite numbers if you like.

[Katya Mullethov]

31. A great deal of them needed killing

If one were to inquire with the competing franchise holders that busted caps in they ass , many of them would indicate this to be true . .

[Glassunion]

37. You do have a point, but I thought we were talking about children.

Firearms Deaths 2000 to 2007(latest available) ages 0 to 15 = 3,218 total (all intents)
Drowning Deaths 2000 to 2007(latest available) ages 0 to 15 = 6,882 total (all intents)

However the OP is talking unintentional deaths and injuries, just the price we must pay...
Deaths
Unintentional Firearms Deaths 2000 to 2007(latest available) ages 0 to 15 = 531
Unintentional Drowning Deaths 2000 to 2007(latest available) ages 0 to 15 = 6,497

NonFatal Injuries
Unintentional Firearms Injuries 2002 to 2009(latest available) ages 0 to 15 = 5,777
Unintentional Drowning/Submersion Injuries 2002 to 2009(latest available) ages 0 to 15 = 28,671

Source: CDC WISQARS

So you tell me, what is the bigger problem our children face?

[Straw Man]

51. How many died in cars?

What are we going to change about those?

[GreenStormCloud]

60. The original post was about children, not everybody.

Every year about 40,000 people die by poisoning. That is almost half a million in that same ten years. Why aren't you upset about that?

[WatsonT]

89. I think I can answer that for him

Because poison isn't guns.

As long as the deaths are caused by something other than guns they're ok.

Cheeseburgers and Coke are a greater threat to the average American than guns, but those are ok because again, they aren't guns.

It's not about saving lives, it's about them being unable to deal rationally with their irrational fears of firearms.

[X_Digger]

14. Duplicate topic. n/t

[pipoman]

69. Then there's this...

The adventurous girl who loved riding four-wheelers,...

The number of accidental deaths and injuries related to ATVs far exceeds those of accidental firearms deaths or accidents...3 times the number IIRC...no outrage, it is the price society pays for the enjoyment of ATVs, huh?

[Union Scribe]

73. The subject line may also refer to cars, swimming, factories

and the many many other things we live with that claim lives.

[Callisto32]

74. All useful, energetic technology carries this risk.

[WatsonT]

85. I can't recall any gun safety class I've attended

that says it's ok to leave your gun in your coat pocket, loaded with no safety on.

[Hoyt]

93. And, yet, this fool got a license. Sounds like tougher licensing might be a good idea.

[WatsonT]

95. I know right. Why can't it be more like the test for profeciency in motor vehicle operation

which has a 100% success rate for ensuring driver safety.

I can't remember the last time a licensed driver killed anyone.

[Hoyt]

96. An automobile's main purpose ain't killing or intimidating. Guns on the other hand . . . . . .

Personally, I think they ought to strap electrodes to applicants' heads and other body parts. If an applicant displays a rise from photos of hi-capacity magazines, "assault" weapons made to appeal to gun lovers' baser instincts, etc., it's an automatic rejection. That would cut down on the packers by 50% - 75%, maybe more.

[WatsonT]

97. So it's their 'intent'

their aura if you will, that is the problem, not that they kill people.

What other objects are possessed by the devil in your opinion?

[X_Digger]

98. Nice dodge there.. almost matrix worthy. n/t

[Ken_Fish]

99. Some people just dont like it when their side loses.

I mean people were really upset after brown vs board and roe. But hey they got over it (most of them).

This stuff is all the anti has left. Stats and numbers destroy any real scientific basis for gun control.

So you have emotions. Stunts and drama. This will pass.

Remember the party has NOT MENTIONED any gun control in years. It is DONE, this little piece of the culture war is over..

That is the reality at work.