Man Dies From Accidental Shooting During Conceal & Carry Class

[RamboLiberal]

A Mountain Grove man is dead after accidentally shooting himself during a conceal and carry class over the weekend.

The Douglas County Sheriff says Glenn Seymour, 63, was practicing a firing exercise with his non-dominant hand.

http://ozarksfirst.com/fulltext?nxd_id=418396

On edit more:

Degase said in interviewing witnesses, he determined Seymour, who was familiar with a revolver, told others that his revolver was having trouble, so he switched to a Browning semi-automatic 9 mm weapon.

Students were working on an exercise where they pull their concealed weapon with their non-dominant hand, take the safety off, aim and shoot.

Degase said that on the gun Seymour was using, the thumb of the right hand would normally manipulate the safety.

It appeared to him that during the exercise Seymour was manipulating the safety with his left index finger, which got the gun turned around facing Seymour. One round hit him in the chest, Degase said.

“Initially the call came in that the gun had been dropped and went off, but the trajectory of the bullet did not match up,” said the Sheriff.

http://www.news-leader.com/article/20110309/NEWS12/110309006/1002/SPORTS/?odyssey=nav%7Chead

First time I've ever seen this kind of accident in a CCW class.

In competitions (IDPA) I shoot in they have shooters start in low ready on non-dominant hand exercises with safety off just for reasons like this.

[aquart]

1. Uh huh.

[Ken_Fish]

2. Generally dont see new shooters drawing PERIOD in a CCW course

never mind non dominant hand draw and manipulation of controls.

In other news someone will die in a single vehicle motorcycle accident today. While tragic, not a policy making event.

[PavePusher]

3. Definitely a clear violation of at least three of the Four Rules of Firearm handling.

And a very sad and avoidable Darwin Award. Damn.

[sharesunited]

4. Guns are goddamned dangerous. Particularly when bullets are contained in them.

[Ken_Fish]

5. More people choke on food, ban food

and dont cut off air while choking the chicken, also dangerous..

[RamboLiberal]

8. Yep all food should be mashed into consistency of baby food

Especially steaks.

Good thing this waiter saved customer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NfzJJ82uGU

And I've read numerous stories of people dying when trees fall on them.

As I said this is first time I remember a death in class like this on a shooting range.

Now I've certainly read of a few shots in leg on holstering usually to police on range.

[Atypical Liberal]

6. They are indeed.

Just like fire, it can be a useful tool or a tool of destruction.

[spin]

7. Very true. That's something every gun owner needs to ALWAYS remember ...

gun safety is serious and extremely important.

[rrneck]

11. HEY

Dick fucking Tracey.

[WatsonT]

31. If we're looking to ban things that are "goddamned dangerous" guns would not top the list

[one-eyed fat man]

48. No kidding!

Wouldn't be much point in carrying one if it weren't dangerous. Weapons are meant to be death dealing devices. As inanimate objects, they don't much care who they hurt. Their use for good or evil totally dependent on the intent of the person wielding it. The results of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect are immediate and irreversible. Unless your objective is suicide, the hole in the end of the barrel where the bullet comes out should never point at you or anything else you don't want a smoking hole in.

That said, guns should not be the exclusive province of those whose intent is criminal. Competent instruction requires sufficient supervision.

[LiberalEsto]

9. Guess he got an F for the course. nt

[Katya Mullethov]

10. Aww C'mon !

Who ain't done that ?

[jxnmsdemguy65]

12. Live by the sword, die by the sword...

simple as that...

[Ken_Fish]

16. Simple is always relative

to the brain owners capability to process higher thought.

[WatsonT]

32. Do you use the entire Bible to base your policy decisions around

or just cherry picked versus?

'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

[jeepnstein]

35. Who's cherry picking now?

[WatsonT]

37. Good thing I don't make my policy decisions based on the bible huh?

Point being that it is disingenuous to quote only certain aspects of any religious texts to support your argument, then dismiss the rest of it as religious nonsense.

You either take all of it or none of it.

I choose none.

[jeepnstein]

38. And I choose it all.

You won't catch me quoting scripture too often in public policy debates because I'm leery of becoming one of those legalists who use God's Word for worldly gain. You also won't catch me imposing my faith on others, although I'm more than happy to share it. If you do catch me at it I certainly welcome your calling it to my attention. We're all free to choose the road we follow.

Context is king in the study of Scripture. There's far more to it than just spouting of a few easy verses.

[WatsonT]

39. In what context is leviticus acceptable?

People always use "context" as an excuse for any odd statement they make.

But seriously, what context makes the death penalty for homosexuality ok?

These kinds of contradictions are part of what turned me off to religion.

[jeepnstein]

40. I don't have to refer to Leviticus except as a study aid..

for the New Testament. As a non-Jew, the Old Testament doesn't really mean all that much to me.

I'm held to a standard that is defined by Jesus' ministry and the works of his Apostles. It was Jesus who prevented a woman from being stoned for adultery. He might as well have written my name in the sand that day because I'm no more fit to judge someone over that than the ones he was confronting. Even though you will find homosexuality lumped in with any number of garden variety sins that I struggle with daily, it certainly doesn't call for anyone to be put to death over any of them. I am so very thankful for that because I'm quite the sinner at times.

We are going to be judged by the standards by which we hold others accountable. That's a different animal than stoning an adulterer or false prophet or even someone who lets their pride cloud their behavior. We are to love one another, forgive those who wrong us, and build one another up in the faith.

I'm off my soap box now. Back to arguing about guns.

[Glassunion]

47. +1... Just because.

[Hoyt]

13. How many public carriers have improper training? What are qualifications of trainers?

[Ken_Fish]

14. All questions no one gives a damn about. How many drunk drivers need

some more drivers ed. How many voters are to stupid? All important, not something you get to weigh in on.

You side would object if everyone was former members of seal team 6.

Dismissed. Vermont is a bloodbath, horrible, the rest of the nation is moving that direction.

[Hoyt]

18. I do. As do a bunch of the 300 million who don't carry in public.

Again, what qualifications make one a trainer?

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hoyt]

21. That might be a problem -- these are citizens carrying in public. Not military or cowboys.

But thanks for the BS and the continued, boring comparison of gun toting to real civil rights.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WatsonT]

33. Catch 22

They would be be qualified but also unfit as they are no doubt sociopathic gun nuts with PTSD.

[jeepnstein]

30. Oh boy.

So you're some kind of HSLD Operator who is an expert on all things firearm related? That's very nice for you. I'm still curious about your technique for field stripping a 1911 in twenty feet of water.

The truth of the matter is I've seen more training accidents involving people with advanced skills than I've ever seen out of your average Fudd shooting at tin cans.

[Hoyt]

41. In any event, those supposedly trained for "combat" with mugger aren't as safe as gun-toters believe

Read through the various threads and you'd think most of the pro-carrying in public crowd is so well trained from shooting paper targets and practicing in front of the mirror that they'd hit a perp -- laying down a barrage -- right between the eyes with no pass through. Truth is, most aren't as well prepared as they want to believe. And it cracks me up listening to them claim otherwise.

[X_Digger]

42. If it's so prevalent you shouldn't have a problem quoting some of that, right? n/t

[Hoyt]

46. Sure, X-D, go to the repository of stupid gun owner accidents. Hope you are not on dial-up.

[jeepnstein]

43. So what about that trick with the 1911?

[Hoyt]

44. What about it? Make sure it's unloaded, remove spring plug thing, . . . . . .

Pretty dang easy from there. But, I don't carry in public because it's not needed, immoral, not cute, and sends a bad message to others.

[jeepnstein]

45. Ahh, so your personal morality should be public policy.

I think I've heard enough thank you very much.

"Remove spring plug thing,..."? pretty impressive skills there. Yup.

[Euromutt]

15. Were they supposed to be practicing this with live ammunition?

It's unclear to me from the cited articles, but it seems to me you'd want to practice those particular manipulations without live ammunition in the room (using snap caps/dummy rounds) before you went to the range to practice shooting with your non-dominant hand.

That said, given the element in the story that the deceased was initially using a revolver before switching to (I presume) a Hi-Power, it's possible that he'd done the classroom stuff with his revolver, and thus raised his learning curve in the worst way possible by switching weapons during the live-fire segment. As Massad Ayoob puts it, autoloaders are easier to shoot, but revolvers are easier to manipulate.

[petronius]

17. I don't get the geometry here - if he had it in his right hand, the left index finger would be

on the same side as the right thumb (where the safety was). If he had it in his left hand, the index finger would still be on that side. I don't see how turning it around would make the access any easier... :shrug:

[Kennah]

19. Yeah, that also has me scratching my head

I own a Browning 9mm, and I just don't get it.

This appears to be a violation of Rule #1.

http://thefiringline.com/Misc/safetyrules.html

RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

There are no exceptions. Do not pretend that this is true. Some people and organizations take this rule and weaken it;e.g. "Treat all guns as if they were loaded." Unfortunately, the "as if" compromises the directness of the statement by implying that they are unloaded, but we will treat them as though they are loaded. No good! Safety rules must be worded forcefully so that they are never treated lightly or reduced to partial compliance.

All guns are always loaded - period!

This must be your mind-set. If someone hands you a firearm and says, "Don't worry, it's not loaded," you do not dare believe him. You need not be impolite, but check it yourself. Remember, there are no accidents, only negligent acts. Check it. Do not let yourself fall prey to a situation where you might feel compelled to squeal, "I didn't know it was loaded!"

[RamboLiberal]

23. Doing with my unloaded Glock (which does not have manual safety)

But trying to put left hand index finger where safety would be on a Browning, I can see how he did this. He probably brought the tip of the index finger back to position of safety which is at rear left area. You really compromise the grip of your hand and could easily get the barrel turned back enough towards your body. And he probably has longer fingers than I do. But now I wonder how he hit the trigger? Perhaps in this awkward position he started to drop the gun and tried to catch it. I've read of a number of accidents that started with someone trying to catch a falling gun.

He would have done better to just bring the left thumb around and offed the safety.

[jeepnstein]

36. Most likely scenario..

The student was given a shooting drill that he was not comfortable with completing. Then instead of mastering it with a firearm of his choosing he was given a substitute and expected to execute the drill. So he gets confused. At that point he's fumbling with the weapon, looks at it from the wrong end, and BLAMMO!

If a student isn't getting a drill, either the drill is really dumb or the student needs to slow down and break it into manageable bits. Ultimately it's the student's fault but I heap a ton of scorn on any instructor who would let things go this far.

[hollowdweller]

24. My Co Workers CCW instructor shot thru the floor during class.

She said he thought he had unloaded the gun, pointed it at the floor and clicked it. But it didn't click :)

Luckily nobody on the floor below got hit.

I was brought up to never click a gun. Ever. I've done it a FEW times, mainly holding at a target to try to smooth out my trigger pull but it's really a good policy. If you never click a gun then you never accidentally shoot one.

I used to know this old gun dealer, Hubert Estep. He had this guy in his shop who brought in a pistol and thought it was unloaded and clicked it and nearly hit Hubert in the head. In his shop after that he had a sign. "25 dollars for the first click, 50, for the next 100 for the next"

[RamboLiberal]

26. Never click a gun - an exception

Pointed in a safe direction it is a good measure to ensure a semi-auto is absolutely empty.

For instance in competition shooting we usually have a cold range meaning all guns except for the shooter on the firing line are empty.

At conclusion of stage the safety officer(some call range officer) asks the shooter to unload, show clear, hammer down - which means pull the trigger so we both know the gun is absolutely empty, holster. Of course the gun is pointed down range.

If I'm going to clean or dry fire my guns with snap caps, I unload the live ammo if any in gun, then I always point my gun toward the cellar(I live alone so no one else in house) and pull the trigger as a last check the gun is truly empty. Especially with a semi-auto it is too easy to forget that one in the chamber otherwise. And on some pistols it is necessary to pull the trigger before you can remove the slide for cleaning.

And your friends CCW instructor, I'd have been looking for a new instructor. That is inexcusable!

[Hoyt]

25. Stuff like that happens more often than most admit.

[Straw Man]

27. And you know this how?

[Hoyt]

28. Been around progunners for over 40 years. Also, look at post a few up.

Shit happens a lot -- but the progunners deny it. And for everyone of these situations that happen to a supposed instructor, it happens more to supposed trainees. If you can't even handle a gun in class, what the heck do you think you'll do if you actually ran into a situation . . . . . .which is mucho unlikely.

You've probably seen it or heard of it before.

[Straw Man]

29. How many of the "progunners" that you know...

...shot themselves fatally in a class? Or anywhere else? How many have shot themselves in any manner at all?

I don't deny that firearms accidents occur. But "a lot"? Your evidence isn't even anecdotal; it's hearsay.

[krispos42]

34. And this is why they make guns without separate manual safties

E.g., Glock, XD