Surprisingly, gun ownership can save lives

[Hoopla Phil]

My wife recently took a handgun class from retired Buffalo police officer and now attorney, Simon Manka. Manka taught 45 students aged 18-to-75 what safe use of handguns was all about, including the variety of firearms out there. Manka says, “most people love to know they can protect themselves, but for most folks, handguns are for target practice, recreational plinking and hunting.” Manka brought in Steve Barnes from Celino and Barnes to explain Article 35, regarding use of deadly force for defense with a firearm.

Barnes says, “using a firearm to defend yourself is no easy task. No honest, responsible person living in free society wants to hurt anyone else, but when someone breaks into your house, attacks you with deadly force with intent to kill, Article 35 explains the legal rules.” Barnes spoke for 60 minutes. The course was intriguing and made my wife (Rose) open her eyes to the need for a better understanding of how to use firearms and the bigger need to develop shooting skills and familiarity with any firearm that you own through repeated practice.
http://www.metrowny.com/weekly_features_columns/611-Surprisingly,_gun_ownership_can_save_lives.html

We've had such a flood (dare I say spam) of knee jerk anti-gun propaganda lately, I thought a nice reasoned article on the benefits of gun ownership (carry) may be a bit refreshing.

[lawodevolution]

1. Not a surprise. A reality

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

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[hlthe2b]

3. The percentage of highly responsible people in our society...

is dropping precipitously. I am not concerned for the 20-30% or whatever the figure of highly responsible individuals owning guns and who train themselves to do so with caution. But pressing to make it easy for the bottom 20-30% who are the least responsible individuals in our society to do so, is the problem.

Dog ownership can save lives and their deterrent effect extends much further from the house. A big can of bear-repellent pepper spray can knock down even a drugged intruder, with little chance of killing him. Just sayin, guns are not the only option.

[RC]

5. You're telling me there are other things than big bore armament

kept in the bed side table to protect yourself from noises in the night? Why haven't we ever heard about this before in this forum? :sarcasm:

[Maine_Nurse]

6. If its an intruder in my home, then I have no desire to irritate his eyes..

and no, CS, CN, or OC are not completely reliable in stopping even non-drug user bad guys. A 405gr. round at 1900fps from the .45-70 is much more effective.

[spin]

8. Spraying someone in your home can cause you problems too ...

I remember I bought some very powerful OC spray for a friend once. Her teenage daughter came home and noticed the canister on the kitchen table. She thought it was perfume and sprayed it into the air. Everyone had to evacuate the house. My friend said her lungs felt like she had chain smoked an entire carton of cigarettes.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

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[east texas lib]

27. PMC makes an excellent 400gr. cowboy action round loaded to black powder specs...

Easy on the shoulder, too. And very accurate in my Marlin 1895SS. It has, shall we say, a proven track record.

[oneshooter]

28. I would prefer the 350gr JHP for self defence, inside of 200yds. n/t

[east texas lib]

29. I shoot 350gr JSP's through a 1/4" steel plate off my front porch deck...

They drill right through it. Ah, country livin' in Texas.

[oneshooter]

31. Get a heavier steel plate. n/t

[WatsonT]

7. If that is indeed the case

then should we be working to restrict all rights?

I'm more concerned about a majority of irresponsible voters than a few irresponsible gun owners.

Your odds of being shot by one (negligible) are far lower than your odds of being affected by the political choices of ill informed voters (100%).

[PavePusher]

9. I'm sure you have evidence to support your claim....

and will present it any day now, amIright?

[Glassunion]

10. Funny, but the other "options" of which you speak are sometimes illegal and highly regulated

in each of the states.Especially the more effective ones. Why is that?

Better be careful using bear mace indoors, I have discharged about 1/3 of a can of that once outdoors, and it was bad. Not to mention using that on a human is illeagal in many states(yes even if they are attacking you).

[hlthe2b]

12. that is utterly ridiculous.

You claim "using that ona human is illeagal (sic) in many states ... even if they are attacking you). Utterly untrue. Spew your BS.. We're not buying.

[Maine_Nurse]

13. It is also true...

The states vary greatly in their laws, but if an item is inherently illegal, then both its possession and use are illegal, even if the use of force is justifiable. It may or may not be prosecuted, but it would certainly open you up to civil litigation for subjecting someone (the poor attacker) to something "so vile it is prohibited by state law!".

[RSillsbee]

16. Read the can

"use of this product in a manner inconsistent w/ its labeling ( It's labeled to be used on bears) is a federal crime"

[Glassunion]

17. Speaking of ridiculous...

Idiocracy..
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x380045

Bear Mace on average is 233/260 grams or 7.9 to 9.2 ounces...http://www.mace.com/personal_defense/mace-bear-pepper-spray.html

ARKANSAS = However, it is legal to possess "**a small container of tear gas or pepper spray to be used for self-defense purposes only, but the capacity of the cartridge or container shall not exceed one hundred fifty cubic centimeters (150cc)".

CALIFORNIA: Subject to certain restrictions, Section 12403.7 of the Penal Code provides "**any person may purchase, possess or use tear gas and tear gas weapons for the projection or release of tear gas if the tear gas and tear gas weapons are used solely for self-defense purposes**". The definition of tear gas also includes pepper spray. The maximum legal net weight for a canister is 2.5 ounces, or 70 grams of OC, CS or CN. CR is not legal for civilian use. State penalties of up to a $1000 fine and/or up to three years in prison, not to mention a possible felony conviction on record.

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA: This one is just funny. You have to register it with the police department. Self-defense sprays are lawful if used or possessed by a person 18 or over "in the exercise of reasonable force in defense of the person or the person's property only if it is propelled from an aerosol container, labeled with or accompanied by clearly written instructions as to its use, and dated to indicate its anticipated useful life." Section 6-2322 et seq. When purchasing such a spray, the buyer must complete a standard registration form, and the vendor must forward the form to the Metropolitan Police Department. Section 6-2324.

FLORIDA: "Self-defense chemical sprays" are legal. They are defined as "a device carried solely for purposes of lawful self-defense that is compact in size, designed to be carried on or about the person, and contains not more than two ounces of chemical".

HAWAII: Again with the funny. Only OC products are legal for use by or sale to persons 18 and over. There is a ½ ounce size restriction and there are licensing requirements.

MASSACHUSETTS: Again with the funny. You have to have a firearms license to purchase or use it. Massachusetts defines ammunition as including "tear gas cartridges, chemical mace, or any other device or instrument which contains or emits a liquid, gas, powder or other substance designed to incapacitate". To sell or possess "ammunition", a license is required. Therefore, the unlicensed sale, or the unlicensed use of self-defense sprays is illegal in Massachusetts. Massachusetts residents may only purchase defense sprays from licensed Firearms Dealers in that state. Massachusetts General Laws, Chapter 140, Section 121, et seq. The licensing authority is the local chief of police or other persons authorized by the locality.

MICHIGAN: Michigan law contains size restrictions (no more than 35 grams of CS ) and no combinations of CS and OC.

NEVADA: Nevada law prohibits possession of tear gas weapons, except for CS by adult (no minors or felons) with no more than 2 fluid ounces in the form of an aerosol spray "which is designed and intended for use as an instrument of self-defense".

NEW JERSEY: Any non-felon 18 or over may possess for the purpose of self-defense "one pocket-sized device which contains and releases not more than three-quarters of an ounce of chemical substance not ordinarily capable of lethal use or of inflicting serious bodily injury, but rather is intended to produce temporary physical discomfort or disability through being vaporized or otherwise dispensed in the air". Section 2C:39-6i.

NEW YORK: Yay! More registration. The possession of "self-defense sprays" by persons who are not felons or who have been convicted of an assault, 18 or over for the protection of person or property and its otherwise lawful use is legal. "Self-defense spray" is defined as "a pocket sized spray device which contains and releases a chemical or organic substance which is intended to produce temporary physical discomfort or disability through being vaporized or otherwise dispensed in the air or any like device containing tear gas, pepper spray or similar disabling agent". There are certain labeling requirements. Sales require both a seller's license and the completion by a purchaser of a registration form. New York residents may only purchase defense sprays from licensed Firearms Dealers or licensed Pharmacists in that state. No more than two sprays may be sold at any one time to a single purchaser. Section 265.25 (14) and (15).

NORTH CAROLINA: Possession and use of self-defense sprays is lawful for non felons so long as the device does not exceed 150 cubic centimeters (150cc). Section 14-401.6.

SOUTH CAROLINA: It is lawful to possess a container not exceeding fifty cubic centimeters (50cc) containing tear gas "for self-defense purposes only". Section 16-23-470

TEXAS: It is permissible to possess a "small chemical dispenser(so... what is "small"?) sold commercially for personal protection". 10 Texas Penal Code Section 46.01 (14).

WISCONSIN: Tear gas is not permissible. A "device or container that contains a combination of oleoresin of capsicum and inert ingredients" is permissible. By regulation, OC products with a maximum OC concentration of 10% and weight range of oleoresin of capsicum and inert ingredients of 15-60 grams is authorized. This is 1/2 oz. and 2 oz. sprays. Further, the product can not be camouflaged, and must have a safety feature designed to prevent accidental discharge. The units may not have an effective range of over 20 feet and must have an effective range of six feet. In addition there are certain labeling and packaging requirements: must state cannot sell to anyone under 18 and the phone number of the manufacturer has to be on the label. The units must also be sold in sealed tamper-proof packages. Wisconsin Statutes Section 941.26 and Justice Regulations 14.01 et seq.


So, yes... It is utterly untrue(if you ignore all of the above). I promise, if I spew my BS it will be elsewhere... Peace :)

[DonP]

18. Bring it Cook County in Illinois and go to jail

The police and the law make no differentiation between a stun gun, mace, pepper spray or a firearm. They are all felony charges for carrying, not even using..

[YllwFvr]

21. ive seen groups of people maced

for a class. There are always a few in each class who can take a face full of the stuff and lick there lips with a grin. No pain or irritation whatsoever. Lucky bastards. My turn is coming up and im pretty sure I wont be one of those lucky ones. Up close you stand a good chance of getting yourself with it too.

Its no guarantee, but worth having I guess.

[Glassunion]

22. What about the police?

I've seen training videos of officers getting sprayed, then having to perform a takedown and arrest. It is something all of the Alaska State Troopers have to pass. Saw it on TV, must be true.

[YllwFvr]

23. yes done here too

I will be doing that in a few weeks. Some cadets just arent burned by it. Local police go through it as well as state LEOs

[Glassunion]

24. Good luck... God speed... And milk. Lots of it.

I don't envy you. Nope, not one bit.

[YllwFvr]

25. they give us a hose

which they acknowledge doesnt do a damn thing. I guess the hotter the weather the worse it is. I pray for snow :)
Ill try and get video to share. Yeah it sucks but god is it funny to see someone maced. Sometimes anyway.

[safeinOhio]

4. Proves the value of licensed CCWs

as opposed to allowing anyone that can purchase a handgun to carry. No training or knowledge of the law.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

14. It hasn't been a big deal in ohio... or anywhere else that allows unlicensed handgun carrying

[DWC]

15. There is nothing surprising about it at all. n/t

[WatsonT]

19. Surprisingly?

No. Obviously would be a better qualifier.

[VoteProgressive]

20. So this man was not pro-gun already?

[Hoopla Phil]

26. I don't know, but John Lott was not. . . or was that Kleck, I forget.

[gejohnston]

30. Kleck

I do know for sure as well as Kates. Not sure about Lott.