Mexican politician calls for extradition of ATF 'Gunwalkers'

[Hoopla Phil]

"Senate estrangement prompted by 'Fast and Furious'," the translated headline from Mexico's El Universal reads.

"Ricardo Monreal, coordinator of the PT, will present a point of agreement to request the extradition of U.S. agents who executed the program," the sub-head explains.

"Moreover, the point intended to encourage the federal Executive to request the extradition of U.S. agents who executed the program, for having committed the crime of trafficking in arms against the Mexican government, as well as those responsible for crimes likely," the rough Google translation continues.

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/mexican-politician-calls-for-extradition-of-atf-gunwalkers

As I've said before, the Mexican people are pissed.

[struggle4progress]

1. Maybe we should hand over the dealers who sold the guns

[rl6214]

2. At the insistance of the ATF?

Who's at fault here? The dealers didn't want to sell the guns, the ATF made them. So who's at fault?

[struggle4progress]

3. "ATF made unwilling dealers sell guns" sounds unlikely: did that accusation perhaps come

from the defense attorney of a dealer charged with some serious violation?

[X_Digger]

4. From ATF whistle blowers. n/t

[RSillsbee]

5. Got quiet in here real quick didn't it?

I'm all for prosecuting these guys to the fullest extent of the law. American law we shouldn't turn our citizens over to the justice of a 3rd world country ever

[struggle4progress]

6. Translation: "from anonymous internet posters"

[RSillsbee]

7. You are aware ,of course, that your avatar packed heat daily right? NT

[struggle4progress]

9. Conversations will more productive if you stay on topic: Tubman's dead nearly a century now

and she operated between Maryland and Canada, many decades before the ATF was founded

So her relationship of Harriet Tubman to Mexican-border gun-running, drug cartels, or the ATF seems somewhat nebulous

[TPaine7]

20. She also LIVED decades before the ATF was founded...

by your logic, her connection to anything outside her time is nebulous.

If historical figures are relevant at all, their positions on the preservation of human life and dignity (and the tools for the same) are relevant. The defense and preservation of others--to which she devoted herself--is still a noble and righteous cause. And a gun is still a great tool for that purpose.

[X_Digger]

8. The agents that contacted Grassley, and he met with. Try again. n/t

[struggle4progress]

10. Do feel free to provide link to actual testimony, or to a direct quote from a standard news source,

to support your claim that the ATF forced gunshops to sell weapons

[X_Digger]

11. google is your friend..

http://www.publicintegrity.org/articles/entry/2976/

One of those front-line agents who objected, John Dodson, 39, told the Center for Public Integrity that these guns “are going to be turning up in crimes on both sides of the border for decades.” Dodson said in an interview that “with the number of guns we let walk, we’ll never know how many people were killed, raped, robbed … there is nothing we can do to round up those guns. They are gone.”
...
Dodson told the Center he and several of his colleagues wanted to intercept some of the weapons but their objections were repeatedly overruled by ATF supervisors. The supervisors instructed them to simply record the straw purchases in a database, flag them as “suspect,” and monitor the suspected gun runners until evidence piled up about their connections to Mexican drug lords.
...
With direct blessing of ATF headquarters in Washington and supervision by the U.S. attorney’s office in Phoenix, a special ATF strike force known as Group VII was given permission to let federally licensed gun shops continue selling weapons to straw buyers already linked to a suspected Mexican gun running operation.

Officials told the Center that ATF allowed about 1,765 firearms over the 15 months of the operation to pass from gun dealers to the suspected straw buyers that were the accomplices of the gun running ring. Another 233 weapons had been bought by the suspects prior to the ATF operation starting, bringing the total number of guns in the case to 1,998.
...
An April 2, 2010 memo from the strike force leader to the Justice Department disclosed that ATF watched as targeted suspects purchased 359 guns in the United States in March 2010 alone.
The case summary sent to ATF headquarters in summer 2010 gave a much higher number.
...
Grassley said his committee has interviewed numerous ATF agents, including Dodson, who have come forward to raise concerns about the Fast and Furious operation and the potential danger of ATF’s approach.
...
Dodson said some of the cooperating gun dealers who sold weapons to the suspects at ATF’s behest initially had concerns and wanted to end their sales. One even asked whether the dealers might have a legal liability, but was assured by federal prosecutors they would be protected, he said.

The case logs show ATF supervisors and U.S. attorney’s office lawyers met with some of the gun dealers to discuss their “role” in the case, in one instance as far back as December 2009.
Concerns about ATF’s approach even extended outside the ATF office in Phoenix.

Duh.

[struggle4progress]

12. Can't find the part about ATF forcing unwilling dealers to sell guns,

which is the point on which I asked for evidence after the claim in #2 supra: The dealers didn't want to sell the guns, the ATF made them

[friendly_iconoclast]

13. That's all right, I found it for you- at the Washington Post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x390483

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/03/09/AR2011030905584_pf.html

....Defense lawyer Dick DeGuerin said the controversy has had an impact on the criminal investigation into one of his clients, Carter's Country, a Houston area chain that had sold assault weapons to a gun-trafficking ring. DeGuerin said that Carter's Country was told by the ATF to go ahead with sales of assault weapons and then report the serial numbers later to the ATF. Last week, a prosecutor called DeGuerin to say the investigation was being dropped....

[struggle4progress]

14. So, as I suggested in #3, that accusation came from the defense attorney of a dealer charged with a

violation

That much I already knew

Somehow this defense attorney claim morphed into the claim that Schumer has testimonial evidence claim that ATF agents were forcing gun-dealers to sell arms to straw purchasers

[friendly_iconoclast]

15. Granted, the WaPo piece is circumstantial- but the dropping of charges is telling....

...given that the ATF seemed set on making an example of Carter's Country.

Seems the prospect of discovery by the defense suddenly became unappealing to the powers-that-be.

[X_Digger]

16. Did you read what I bolded?

"Dodson said some of the cooperating gun dealers who sold weapons to the suspects at ATF’s behest initially had concerns and wanted to end their sales. One even asked whether the dealers might have a legal liability, but was assured by federal prosecutors they would be protected, he said."

[struggle4progress]

17. Shall we go through this slowly and carefully?

Poster in #2 says the ATF made the dealers sell the guns

In #3 I ask whether that claim can be traced to defense attorney of a dealer charged with some serious violation

You in #4 attribute it to ATF whistle blowers, and in #8 you indicate ATF agents made this claim to Grassley

In #10 I ask for testimony or a direct quote from a reputable news source to support the claim

Neither your #11 nor your #13 supports the original claim that the ATF made the dealers sell the guns; nor does either of your links indicate that multiple ATF whistle blowers have made such a claim, to Grassley or anyone else. I note further the absence of direct quotes on the matter in question: we have one highly direct and rather vague assertion from one ATF agent (Dodson) indicating that one dealer inquired about liability and was reassured by prosecutors (which sounds to me DOJ, not ATF which is under Treasury); there is no clear indication whether Dodson had direct knowledge of this or was reporting something he heard second-hand, nor is it clear exactly what the dealer inquired about or exactly how prosecutors replied. Indirect quotes like this in the media often (but not always) indicate a reporter's summary of what the reporter understood from the Yes/No answer to a question

I followed this story in January and February and noticed a large number of the quotes were coming from gun-dealers' lawyers. Of course, everyone is entitled to a lawyer when charged, and of course it is a defense lawyer's job to portray his client in the best possible light. But it seems there is more below the surface here, that is not public knowledge -- and it is also clear that there is quite a lot of hype

Dodson may well be raising legitimate concerns: I have no current opinion about that. Facts first, analysis later

[rl6214]

19. Will this work for you?

Agent: I was ordered to let U.S. guns into Mexico
ATF agent says "Fast and Furious" program let guns "walk" into hands of Mexican drug cartels with aim of tracking and breaking a big case.


(CBS News) WASHINGTON - Federal agent John Dodson says what he was asked to do was beyond belief.


He was intentionally letting guns go to Mexico?



"Yes ma'am," Dodson told CBS News. "The agency was."


An Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms senior agent assigned to the Phoenix office in 2010, Dodson's job is to stop gun trafficking across the border. Instead, he says he was ordered to sit by and watch it happen.


Investigators call the tactic letting guns "walk." In this case, walking into the hands of criminals who would use them in Mexico and the United States.

snip

Agent Dodson and other sources say the gun walking strategy was approved all the way up to the Justice Department. The idea was to see where the guns ended up, build a big case and take down a cartel. And it was all kept secret from Mexico.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/03/eveningnews/main20039031.shtml

[pipoman]

23. Complicity

is really a very simple concept:

An individual is complicit in a crime if he/she is aware of its occurrence and has the ability to report the crime, but fails to do so. As such, the individual effectively allows criminals to carry out a crime despite possibly being able to stop them, either directly or by contacting the authorities, thus making the individual a de-facto accessory to the crime rather than an innocent bystander.

[X_Digger]

25. Willful ignorance?

"The case logs show ATF supervisors and U.S. attorney’s office lawyers met with some of the gun dealers to discuss their “role” in the case, in one instance as far back as December 2009."

I'm sure the transcripts and case logs above will come to light eventually. Will you then move the goal posts again?

[DissedByBush]

26. The way the procedure works is

If a gun store owner thinks a straw purchase is happening, he calls the ATF, which usually tells them to deny the sale and take down everything about the attempted purchaser.

I know one gun store owner who was asked to stall the purchaser in the store, which he did, until the police arrived to haul him away.

That's the way it normally works throughout the country, every day.

In this case the ATF's POLICY was to tell the gun store owners to allow the transaction for purposes of Project Gunrunner.

There are guns in Mexico, right now, only because the ATF let them.

The kicker, the ATF ordered its agents in Mexico to not notify the Mexican authorities about the program.

Yes, the Mexican government is rightfully pissed.

[rl6214]

18. Actually they have come forward

and told their stories to CBS and other news organizations. Nothing anonymous here.

Try again.

[NewMoonTherian]

21. Take'em! I certainly won't stand in the way.

I'm just disappointed all their other civil rights violations won't be punished.

[pipoman]

22. Um,

How about the US demand the extradition of Mexican officials who have and continue to be complicit and/or corrupt withe the cartels?

[Katya Mullethov]

24. Last I heard

We still have no extradition agreement with MX because the US has a death penalty . lol

-insert photo of skinned head with his dick in his mouth -