Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Motive behind 'Project Gunwalker' needs closer look

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Guns Donate to DU
 
Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 05:08 AM
Original message
Motive behind 'Project Gunwalker' needs closer look
CBS News has been on "Project Gunwalker" longer than any of the rest of the establishment media, and has done, and continues to do, fine work. Fox News is now on it (after some initial reluctance). The Los Angeles Times is on it. So, sort of, is the Seattle Times. Outside the U.S., the BBC has started covering it. Even the Washington Post has picked up the story, albeit with a healthy (or perhaps "healthy" is exactly the wrong word) dose of pro-BATFE spin. And many others.

Still, though, as gratifying as it is to see the mass media on the case, there is one vital angle they seem to this point to have missed completely. So far, the major press outlets seem to buy the BATFE/DoJ spin--that this was a perhaps ill-considered, but still honorably intended, effort to bring down at least one major Mexican drug syndicate. The notion that the main objective was to "pad" the statistics about Mexican "crime guns" coming from the U.S. civilian market, thus strenghtening the BATFE's argument for more funding and power--and "gun control" advocates' calls for more restrictive gun laws--seems hardly to have occurred to most of the media. That's odd, because with only a little bit of thought, the "we had hoped to take down a whole major drug organization" idea looks quite implausible. Mr. Codrea explains:

Please continue to read at: http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-st-louis/motive-behind-project-gunwalker-needs-closer-look

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 05:32 AM
Response to Original message
1. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 06:02 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. "it was an ill-considered dog and pony show designed to make a spectacular headline and more budget"
More conspiracy theories. You sound like the radical RWers who referred to "jackbooted federal employees" during the old Bush and Bill Clinton administrations.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. You don't think so?
Edited on Sat Mar-12-11 10:51 AM by one-eyed fat man
You don't think the ATF would plan a hugely spectacular raid as a media event? You don't think that such a raid would be co-incidentally timed to co-incide with Congressional budget hearings? You don't think the ATF would alert local TV news crews about such a raid in advance to make sure the made that day's news cycle?



The agents who conceived that fiasco would never have been rehired by the agency and subsequently promoted.

No, nothing like that ever happened before. Why would anyone suspect anything? Of course it's "conspiracy talk," look at this report by those tin foil hat wearing loonies at the fanatically right wing Southern Poverty Law Center

Right before the raid, one ATF supervisor said to about 45 agents , "Hurry up, they know we're coming." Of course, many agents were wondering, "What do you mean, 'Hurry up, let's go, they know we're coming?'"


Then there's things like institutional perjury, the "Good Ol' Boys Roundup." Remember that one?




ATF's credibility attacked by judges, own agents

Associated Press, 06/02/97 13:59

WASHINGTON (AP) - Still on the rebound from Waco and the Good Ol'Boys Roundup, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms now is enduring attacks on its integrity from judges and its own agents.

In criminal and civil cases, judges have concluded ATF witnesses were not credible, had "failed to adhere to the high ethical standards expected of federal law enforcement" and had shown a "reckless disregard for the truth."

Four months ago, a former informant won the return of his gun dealer's licenses after producing a tape recording that conflicted with the testimony of an ATF supervisor. The agency knew about the tape but continued to stand by the testimony in court filings.

And during a training seminar at headquarters in Washington, a training supervisor declared that agents "always testify" in court that the agency's firearms registration database is 100 percent accurate "even though we know that isn't always the case."

None of the agents involved in a dozen cases in which questions of credibility were raised has ever been disciplined, according to a review by The Associated Press.

The agency says such incidents are isolated given the thousands of cases it handles - involving violent gunrunners, gang members and bombers - and that they are being blown out of proportion because of the recent negative spotlight cast on the bureau.

ATF agents were cited in 1996 for events that included drunkenness and racist behavior at gatherings dubbed Good Ol' Boys Roundups in Tennessee. And several were reprimanded for the 1993 botched raid on the Branch Davidian compound at Waco, Texas. In the latter, the government concluded ATF supervisors made false statements to cover up errors.

"Clearly, a public perception still persists about the agency stemming from Waco and the roundup, but nothing can be further from the truth," said Stephen J. McHale, the agency's chief counsel.

"ATF agents consistently perform their duties with honesty and hard work, and in the few cases where there have been questions, the agents were testifying to the best of their recollections," he said.

Not everyone shares that view, including Vincent C. Noble, an agent in Louisville, Ky., who sued his agency claiming he was denied a promotion.

Last month, a supervisor in Noble's office acknowledged in a deposition that inaccurate and exaggerated information that reflected more positively on the agent who was promoted over Noble had been placed in her personnel folder.

"ATF is in the business of putting people in the penitentiary for lying on government forms, firearms licenses and the like. And here you have ATF supervisors admitting they lied on government forms and not a darn thing has been done," Noble said.

Agency officials declined comment on Noble's charges, citing the ongoing case.

In Ohio, a federal appeals court last year upheld a judge's 1992 ruling throwing out a search warrant that had been used to confiscate more than 50 weapons in the home of a convicted felon.

U.S. District Judge John M. Manos ruled the affidavit submitted by agent Stephen Wells was wrought with "serious omissions and misrepresentations and stale information" and that a key paragraph was "highly unreliable and defies credulity."

"In his zeal to secure a search warrant, Agent Wells displayed a reckless disregard for the truth as evidenced by his affidavit and changed testimony," Manos concluded. The agency appealed, but an appeals court in 1996 ruled Manos' tough-worded decision was "supported by the record." Wells denied wrongdoing and has since retired.

In Chicago, an administrative law judge in February ordered the agency to reinstate agent Michael Casali to the job it had tried to fire him from in 1996, concluding the agency retaliated against him for disclosing wrongdoing in ATF's Chicago office.

Judge Stephen E. Manrose ruled the agency "failed to adhere to the high ethical standards expected from federal law enforcement agencies" and may have engaged in an "intentional disregard of the law."

Cleveland-area gun dealer Mickey Downie, who has worked for the government as an undercover operative, won the return of his firearms licenses in February in a court-approved settlement - more than three years after ATF revoked them claiming he wrongly used a mailbox address.

Downie argued that supervisor Thomas Schneider gave him permission to use the mailbox address on his licenses to protect his identity during undercover work. Schneider testified he did not. Downie produced a tape recording showing he was given permission, and sued. Nonetheless, the agency continued to deny in a 1995 court filing that its agent had given the permission.

When asked why the testimony wasn't corrected, McHale said: "Schneider's recollection is what it is. And the bottom line is ultimately it is irrelevant ... because Downie could not legally be given permission to use a mailbox drop." He said Schneider was cleared of wrongdoing and was promoted to Washington.

Questions of credibility also have emerged inside headquarters, where a supervisor suggested during a training seminar that agents may have misled courts about the accuracy of the federal firearms registration database.

"Let me say that when we testify in court, we testify that the database is 100 percent accurate," supervisor Thomas Busey is quoted as saying in a transcript of the October 1995 seminar. "That's what we testify to, and we will always testify to that. As you probably well know, that may not be 100 percent true."

Busey added that a quality review team tested some data in the database and "our error rate was between 49 and 50 percent."

McHale said Busey recognized after he spoke that his comments were incorrect and sought reassignment. The agency conducted an internal review and concluded its agents had testified accurately.


I'm not saying that it's some dark-room conspiracy — never assume a conspiracy when ignorance, indolenece and incompetence can explain the situation. Also, in these cases the sheer volume of incompetence means some of it is likely being overlooked.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Mr Sipsey hisself got a demand letter from the IRS yesterday
His first in near 50 years as a taxpayer by his recollection .
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Waco, really?
lol, your answer is Waco? Knock, knock, we have a warrant. If you dumb asses had opened your door no one would have died! Seriously fat man, you reply with Waco? Waco is a wonderful example of what happens when you fire at law enforcement, more right wingers should realize that before they barricade themselves inside their tombs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. And here I had thought Waco was a wonderful example of publicity-seeking gone wrong.
Edited on Sat Mar-12-11 09:34 PM by friendly_iconoclast
"OK, we've got an arrest warrant for Koresh. Let's pick him up on his regular morning run, when he's separated from his

arsenal and his fanatical followers. No muss, no fuss."


"Nah, I got a better idea from watching "SWAT" reruns. It'll be great publicity for the agency, trust me!..."


Since we've got you here, maybe you can give give us an insider's answer for a question a lot of us have had:

How does a string becomes a Class 3 firearm? Or is that above your grade?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-11 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. Just clarification
because I am sure the poster doesn't understand the question.

How does a shoe string become classified as a fully automatic machine gun?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. You see,
you don't get to set the rules for debate around here. Statements like, "Yes or no answers only". Here are some questions for you. Did the BATF order FFL dealers to allow transfers against the objection of FFL dealers? Did the BATF watch as guns were smuggled across the Mexican border? Did the BATF know that criminals were obtaining guns, who those criminals were, and allow it to happen?

I assume you also believe Assange should be jailed and Manning should be waterboarded?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #6
15. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. No new law needed as you say
Current law would have stopped those guns from going into Mexico.

That is if the ATF hadn't purposely told the suspicious store owners to sell the guns, abandoning their enforcement of current law.

They should be fired, and some imprisoned as accessories to murder.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. No dear, that 60k is a misquote of President Calderon..
http://www.notangsushi.com/?p=58

Now, if you find the statement from Calderon made before congress, it’s a bit different..

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/05/mexican_president_challenges_c.html
Just to give you an idea, we have seized 75,000 guns and assault weapons in Mexico in the last three years. And more than 80 percent of those we have been able to trace came from the United States — from the United States.


Notice that Calderon did not say that 80% of the guns seized came from the US- he said 80% of the guns seized that were able to be traced.

Now where did WaPo get that magic 60,000 number? Well, 80% of 75,000 is.. *drumroll* 60,000!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
safeinOhio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
5. Starting to sound like
the ATF and the NRA are two sides of the same coin.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. ?
:wtf:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
12. Some in the current administration have favored renewing the assault weapons ban ...
and have used the issue of gun smuggling to promote this idea. In order to convince citizens that gun smuggling to Mexico is a significant problem, a large number of guns has to be found. This effort has had little success despite all efforts to exaggerate the number of smuggled firearms found by playing word games such as saying the 80% of the firearms found that were able to be traced came originally from the United States. Many of the firearms couldn't be traced because they had no serial number. Serial numbers are required for American made firearms but not all nations put serial numbers on their manufactured weapons.


According to the GAO report, some 30,000 firearms were seized from criminals by Mexican authorities in 2008. Of these 30,000 firearms, information pertaining to 7,200 of them (24 percent) was submitted to the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) for tracing. Of these 7,200 guns, only about 4,000 could be traced by the ATF, and of these 4,000, some 3,480 (87 percent) were shown to have come from the United States.

This means that the 87 percent figure relates to the number of weapons submitted by the Mexican government to the ATF that could be successfully traced and not from the total number of weapons seized by Mexican authorities or even from the total number of weapons submitted to the ATF for tracing. In fact, the 3,480 guns positively traced to the United States equals less than 12 percent of the total arms seized in Mexico in 2008 and less than 48 percent of all those submitted by the Mexican government to the ATF for tracing. This means that almost 90 percent of the guns seized in Mexico in 2008 were not traced back to the United States.emphasis added

The remaining 22,800 firearms seized by Mexican authorities in 2008 were not traced for a variety of reasons. In addition to factors such as bureaucratic barriers and negligence, many of the weapons seized by Mexican authorities either do not bear serial numbers or have had their serial numbers altered or obliterated. It is also important to understand that the Mexican authorities simply don’t bother to submit some classes of weapons to the ATF for tracing. Such weapons include firearms they identify as coming from their own military or police forces, or guns that they can trace back themselves as being sold through the Mexican Defense Department’s Arms and Ammunition Marketing Division (UCAM). Likewise, they do not ask ATF to trace military ordnance from third countries like the South Korean fragmentation grenades commonly used in cartel attacks.
http://borderissues.us/2011/02/13/mexicos-gun-supply-and-the-90-percent-myth/


While the leadership of the ATF is primarily interested in promoting itself in order to get more funds and power, it is also possible that they would like to increase the number of firearms found in Mexico that came from the states. The higher the number, the higher the possibility a new assault weapons ban has to become law and the more chance that the politicians who favor the new law will return the favor to the ATF when the law passes by pushing for the approval of more funds.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. Appropriations Theater
And they got caught..... AGAIN .
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-11 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
17. Memelogical Archeology
Here , in 2008 , ABC insinuates as Newell infers that US belt feds are a really bad pwoblem in Mexico . And they only got a million out of a 100 million ?
No wonder they showed their ass .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On4WUDLiMbU
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-11 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
19. I thought the numbers-pumping motive was obvious n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Apr 25th 2024, 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Guns Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC