Shooting Death During Conceal-Carry Class Under Investigation

[RamboLiberal]

An accidental shooting death in Douglas County, Mo., is under investigation by the local sheriff. Glenn Seymour was practicing with a 9 mm handgun, drawing it and the firing with his left hand as opposed to his dominant right hand. The gun went off and he accidentally shot himself in the chest at point blank range March 5.

Douglas County Sheriff Chris Degase called the event "a tragic accident." His office is investigating whether or not the technique taught in the conceal-and-carry class was consistent with state standards.

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At issue is the training method. Williams is 70 years old and investigators say he had been teaching the course for some time. The previous sheriff had approved the teaching methods in his class even though they aren't necessarily prescribed by state law.

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Despite the death being ruled an accident, experts are questioning the methods Williams used. He had been an instructor since 1998. Two other firearms instructors spoke to the News-Leader and commented the techniques Williams used were much more advanced than what is needed for a simple concealed weapons permit.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ac/20110313/tr_ac/8050896_shooting_death_during_concealcarry_class_under_investigation


The skill Seymour was learning when he died is not required to get a concealed-weapons permit in Missouri. The state calls for instructors to cover such topics as basic marksmanship and safe storage of firearms at home during the eight-hour class.

County sheriffs oversee concealed carry training in Missouri, approving lesson plans and individual instructors.

Degase said that while Seymour’s death was accidental, he is reviewing whether Williams should continue teaching such courses. Degase said a previous sheriff approved Williams as an instructor.

Dan Smith, a firearms instructor, said the skill Seymour was learning when he died is only found at “very, very advanced levels of training.”

Read more: http://www.kansascity.com/2011/03/12/2721361/death-of-man-in-gun-class-investigated.html#ixzz1Gc1XM2rL

Sounds like he may be teaching beyond what would mostly be beginners level.

[Scuba]

1. Darwin is smiling. n/t

[Maine_Nurse]

4. Not smiling any harder than...

if your unarmed ass was killed in a home invasion. This was a tragic accident, have some fucking humanity instead of gloating over someone's death. That kind of comment makes you no better than any repug or bagger.

[Scuba]

5. Well, first, I'm not unarmed....

...I have several rifles and shotguns, and a Colt Gov't model.

But when some hot dog shoots himself practicing fast-draw with his off hand, well maybe it is Darwinism.

BTW, I support Maine nurses. I worked at CMMC in the past.

[RamboLiberal]

7. The guy was a senior citizen not a hot dog practicing fast draw

Your comments are repulsive.

[Scuba]

9. Noted.

[rl6214]

12. I thought the guy TEACHING the class was a senior

?

[pipoman]

13. The victim was 65 IIRC...there is another thread about this accident.

[AzNick]

16. "off hand"?

"Off hand" is a one-hand, arm extended to the side, shooting technique.

Did you mean non-dominant hand?

[Kennah]

2. We didn't do weak hand draws until Advanced Defensive Handgun

http://www.firearmsacademy.com/AdvDefHg.htm

Seems like the instructor might have been throwing novice canoeists into Class 6 rapids.

[RamboLiberal]

3. IDPA and I believe USPSA competitions

where you can get a mix of shooters from very experienced to complete novices start with gun in non-dominant hand safety off at low ready. Too damn advanced to try to switch safety off on non-dominant hand for someone who hasn't done before.

[VoteProgressive]

6. Not sure this was a criminal action but not a good idea.

[RamboLiberal]

8. Not a criminal action but sure could be civil

Wouldn't be surprised to see this end up in court - sheriff may even end up being sued - even though I'm sure liability waivers were signed.

[VoteProgressive]

10. No doubt possible.

[rl6214]

11. Keep yer booger picker out of the trigger guard

until you are trained on a target and you won't have any negligent discharges.

[RamboLiberal]

14. Interesting video recreation of drill supposedly done

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7AMMF7WaB8&feature=player_embedded

I can believe an old time instructor might do something dumb like this drill he probably learned a couple decades ago.

And something that should never be practiced by beginners. I'd be even hesitant with an advanced class with a live firearm.

If this is the technique might be a helluva lawsuit.

[Abq_Sarah]

21. Damn

I wasn't taught an emergency draw that way and if an advanced level instructor had suggested it, I would have flat out refused. There's no way I'd do that with a hot firearm.

I have had students ask about it in CCW class and I've shown them a safer way with a blue gun that doesn't involve pointing the barrel at your chest so they can practice later at home. We certainly don't run through it at the range.

My classes tend to cover more than the bare minimum because I sure as hell don't want to send someone out the door who can barely clear a holster and hit paper.

[petronius]

32. That was kinda scary to watch, even with the toy

Thanks for the clarification, I was having a tough time visualizing how this could have happened...

[Hoyt]

15. Some day, every gun carrier's child is going to have to tell them they are too old to tote.

Or teach a class. I guess this indicates how sorry the training those bent on carrying in public get. "Advanced training" my ass.

[rl6214]

17. Ok, so you say that 21 year olds are not mature enough

to carry at colleges but now you say seniors are TO OLD to carry (or as you like to say in trying to insult "tote").

Make up your mind, which is it going to be?

[Hoyt]

18. I think most are true in general. Yes, you can be too old to screw around with guns, autos, saws,

[RamboLiberal]

19. You have no clue

I shoot with a lot of seniors who can handle guns safely and out-shoot a lot of people much younger.

[Hoyt]

20. Fine, when the doc puts them on Aricept, let's see how comfortable you are with them packing.

I'm not saying set an absolute age limit -- don't believe in those. I am saying that many elderly people -- if they live long enough -- will reach a point where driving, sawing, toting a gun (even cleaning one), etc., is not safe. And that is coming from someone plenty old who will likely be in a nursing home someday and would prefer not to have former cowboys sitting in a fog with a gun strapped to their legs.

[RamboLiberal]

22. And how many seniors who shouldn't be driving

kill people with their cars? I hear of those cases quite often. Except for the numbnuts who dropped the gun from his pocket recently in a restuarant I sure haven't read of any seniors who shouldn't have a gun shooting a innocent member of the public.

Yeah we all can reach an age when we shouldn't be driving or possibly carrying a gun in public.

[right2bfree]

37. In Florida, they make driving tests for elders mandatory. As far as leaving a gun in an eatery, you.

..could ask actor Robert Blake about leaving his gun in a restaurant, while
"someone" killed his wife with another gun, outside in his car.

Guess what?

The police are not looking for anyone else in the murder.

Yeah, those gun owners, like Blake, you just have to love their alibi's.

Or not!

[right2bfree]

23. Yeah, thats a whole issue that will soon come up soon now that the Boomers are gettting old.

...Right now, we need to be concerned about removing the guns out of the mentally
ill and the dope/booze abusers' hands, before we have more VA Techs' and Tuscon,
AZ spree shootings, happening by the younger generations who are unstable at best.

[Hoyt]

24. It's the toter in the nursing home bed next to me that sees ghosts in the night I worry about.

If you've ever worked in a nursing home or cared for the elderly, you know what I'm talking about.

And the "mentally ill" young ones too who think there is a mugger behind every tree. I'd be quite liberal in the definition of "mental illness" too -- like folks who are obsessed with military type weapons, hi-cap magazines, etc., should be referred for a thorough psychological evaluation before receiving a permit. And they should be required to get a periodic reevaluation if they somehow pass.

[right2bfree]

25. I couldnt agree more. As long as they pass all the tests I think we could all feel safer.

My uncle who developed dementia had about 75 firearms, and had to have them removed from
his home.

No they were not confiscated; they are in the hands of my middle aged cousin, who can make
sure they stay out of the hands of his father and sell them to reputable gun owners when
his father dies, as my cousin, like me, has no use for guns.

[oneshooter]

26. as my cousin, like me, has no use for guns, unless they are controlled

and carried by agents of the goverment.

There I finished it for ya. :evilgrin:


Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[rrneck]

27. That is one scary post.

You would base a mental health evaluation on one's preference for the appearance of a consumer product. You need to think about that. For a long time.

Authoritarianism like yours is rife with fear. The kind of fear that kills democratic societies.

Straighten your tie, you're a mess.

[Hoyt]

28. If you are attracted by these gun's appearance (and marketing terms), you might have a problem.

Too many folks get turned on by terms like "tactical" used to market some of these guns. Pretty clear indication of a problem.

[rrneck]

29. Prejudicial bullshit. nt

[Hoyt]

30. Psychological fact. Check it out.

[rrneck]

31. Cough up a link for a change and maybe I will. nt

[right2bfree]

33. True enough. With more Armicans having mental issues and dementia we need to make sure they are safe

..to own firearms and yes, even drive a car as well. Too many US
citizens are dying needless deaths and that has to be stopped now.

[BrookBrew]

34. Hey did you know that a commercial pilot can now take a SSRI

and still operate a 7 body aircraft. Prozac is on the list. Good luck with this little bit of silliness. Any person holding the office of dog catcher or above who hints at something so authoritarian and stupid would be ejected from office.

It appears the drys (err gun control, err "safety") crowd have nothing left.

[right2bfree]

35. Hey, did you know that truck drivers wont be allowed to use many psychiatric pills soon?...

..now we will have safety on the roads AND safety with guns when
Mr. Obama gets the NFSA passed, after his re-election in 2012.

[rl6214]

36. WTF is the NFSA?

You keep referring to this (secret?) what? There is no such thing.

National Flying Squirrel Association?

National Fastpitch Softball Association?

National Field Selling Association?

National Finance Students Association?

National Fire Sprinkler Association?