IDAHO: Campus Carry Passes House 41-28

[GreenStormCloud]

http://www.fox12idaho.com/Global/story.asp?S=14267349

Boise, Idaho -- Idaho House Bill 222 -- the controversial "campus carry" bill -- shot forward today, with House lawmakers voting 41 to 28 in favor of the legislation which would enable both the concealed and open carry of firearms on public Idaho campuses.

The only exception -- freshmen dorms


SNIP

The bill now heads to the Idaho Senate State Affairs committee, where it could be approved as early as Friday.

[aquart]

1. Maybe we already have nukes in our water. We've gone insane.

[TheWraith]

3. Not really.

The same restrictions still apply for having a concealed carry permit, including minimum age, background checks, etcetera.

[Ed Suspicious]

4. We

don't need guns in our schools. This is foolishness.

[X_Digger]

8. Has this been a problem in the colleges that already allow it?

If not, what is your reason for opposing it?

[Starboard Tack]

37. Because it infringes on our 1st Amendment rights

A bunch of gunslingers in a classroom is not conducive to freedom of speech. It is intimidating to normal, law abiding people who perceive anyone attending class with a gun as a potential threat and in need of serious counseling. What century are we living in?

[PavePusher]

39. What century are YOU living in that you believe...

that someone with a gun will just shoot you when they don't agree with you? Especially someone with a verified background check for lack of criminal behavior?

Perhaps you are the one who needs counceling....

[X_Digger]

42. Has freedom of speech been curtailed in UT?

How about the colleges in Colorado? Washington?

Your imaginary wharrgarble isn't related to the reality in several states and colleges.

[Starboard Tack]

51. Anytime a gun is introduced into a conversation, then freedom of speech is threatened

Otherwise, why bring the gun in the first place? Schools are places where we exercise our thought muscle. You think they let students at West Point carry weapons to class?

[X_Digger]

55. So that's a no? You can't demonstrate supression of speech at any of the 70 campuses..

.. where concealed carry is legal?

[Starboard Tack]

110. Do you really not see the implied threat?

I can't believe that any sane person would feel comfortable sitting in a classroom knowing that maybe half the students were armed. Even thinking about it should be grounds for denying a permit. If kids are that paranoid, they need to seek counseling or change schools.

[X_Digger]

121. We've had licensed concealed carry in the US since 1963 (WA state)..

And unlicensed concealed carry in Vermont since.. what year was Vermont made a state? 1791? Since then.

So no, having about ~2% of the population being armed doesn't bother me.

Nice hyperbolic hand wringing, though. Are half of all college students over 21? No. Would half of those over 21 be eligible for a license? Doubtful. Would half of those over 21 and eligible take the time, effort, and money to get a permit? Doubt it.

Keep on getting your knickers in a twist of what will end up being a non-event.

[GreenStormCloud]

129. Why should I feel uncomfortable?

Those same persons can get a CCW that allows them to carry anywhere else. They are around me any time when I go shopping, or to a movie, or anywhere else with no problems. Do you REALLY think that they will suddenly turn into crazed killers just because they came onto a college campus?

[Starboard Tack]

138. I don't want them around me anytime

That is my right, to pursue a peaceful existence. I don't want it being infringed upon by people who want to carry killing tools in public places. I leave my guns at home and so should you unless we're at war or you're going hunting or to the range. How would you feel if everyone started walking around carrying machetes or spears?
Time to get civilized.

[GreenStormCloud]

140. You do NOT have the right to have everyone around you disarmed.

No matter how many time you post claiming that right, you don't have it.

[Starboard Tack]

148. I never claimed that right

I would just prefer it if you all would not insist on carrying guns in public. It is uncivilized behavior.

[GreenStormCloud]

165. See your own post #138:

138. I don't want them around me anytime
That is my right, to pursue a peaceful existence. I don't want it being infringed upon by people who want to carry killing tools in public places.

You don't have the right to a gun-free existance.

[Starboard Tack]

177. My right is to pursue a peaceful existence. That is my natural right.

Everything else I said is what I want. That's all. We all want different things. I choose to live in low crime places as part of my pursuit.
But I have kids in college and they don't want to be around guns and they are not alone.
http://www.statepress.com/2011/03/03/va-tech-shooting-survivor-talks-gun-safety-at-asu/

In a recent poll conducted by a group of Texas newspapers, 67 percent of registered voters said they opposed guns on campus. At Texas AM University, one of the state’s most conservative campuses, a survey of more than 13,000 students revealed that 57 percent were against the idea.

[GreenStormCloud]

191. You do not have the right to a gun-free existance.

What makes you think that ADULTS who have CHLs and carry elsewhere with no problems will morph into crazed killers merely by being on a college campus. The law will not change who is able to get a CHL. That criteria remains unchanged.

Are you aware the violent crime does exist on college campuses? When I was going to school for my Master's there was a bludgeon murder/robbery on campus.

There is another thread about a woman who was raped on campus testifying in Nevada about the same law. I notice that the anti-gunners are absent from that thread.

[Starboard Tack]

196. I am not an anti-gunner

I am an anti-gun carrier unless it is necessary. We differ on when and where it is necessary. It would be a wonderful world if there happened to be a responsible individual out there to rescue people from the roaming miscreants. I think that is a fantasy and encouraging more people to carry weapons is not the solution in my opinion. You do what you want. That's your choice and it's legal. I don't want to take away that right. I just don't agree with your choice to carry in public, not the legality of it.

[X_Digger]

197. Your crystal ball must be better than mine.

If I woke up knowing that today I'd need to use my gun, I'd hit the snooze and stay in bed, or be somewhere else at that time.

I avoid places and situations where I might reasonably expect to have to use my gun.

I carry for the times and places that I don't expect to have to use it.

[Starboard Tack]

222. Seems to me like carrying an umbrella in the desert

I'd rather carry a gun in the desert and an umbrella in town. Call me crazy.

[X_Digger]

226. Do you have a fire extinguisher in you home?

Chances are, you won't need it. Are you afraid of fire, or something?

[Starboard Tack]

227. Yes I have 4 fire extinguishers and 2 guns in my home

Right where they belong. So when I'm out and I see a fire I basically have 3 options, call the fire department, get upwind of it, or just piss on it if it's a small one. Beats the heck out of carrying a fire extinguisher with me.

[X_Digger]

228. Can't go home without having a fire extinguisher? Tsk task tsk.. tacky.

That's what the fire department is for.

[Starboard Tack]

236. Not when you live on a boat. Coast guard regulations

[X_Digger]

237. Would you..

The question is, would you have one if it weren't required?

I suspect so- it's a reasonable response to the chance of an unlikely, yet potentially deadly event.

[Starboard Tack]

238. Maybe I would, but must admit I never have.

But there's a big difference. A fire extinguisher is designed to save lives. A gun is designed to take lives. I could use the fire extinguisher to bludgeon someone, but that's not what it's designed for. I could wear a gun as a fashion accessory, but that isn't what it's designed for.

[X_Digger]

239. What is the use most firearms are commonly used for? *hint: not crime

Firearms are used in crime/suicide about 400,000 times a year. (US BJS & CDC)

Firearms are used in self-defense an indeterminate number of times a year, but in the early 90's multiple surveys put the number at between 800k-2.5M times (most not requiring a gun to actually be fired.) (DOJ NCVS, polling)

Firearms are used in hunting and recreation an indeterminate number of times a year- there are ~14M hunting licenses issued per year (FWS), and 12B (that's "B" as in billion) rounds of ammunition were sold last year. (NSSF based on federal excise taxes paid)

Legal uses of firearms far outnumber the illegal uses, by a factor of 50 to 1 at least.

Which has more relevance- an object's original design intent, or the most common use to which people apply it?

[Starboard Tack]

242. Firearms are used in crime/suicide about 400,000 times a year.

I think you made my point. That's an incredible number. Maybe I should adjust my position. I've always been OK with owning firearms for hunting and sport and defending the home. I just object to carrying in public. But with numbers like that, maybe we need to rethink. That's like 100 times per capita the UK figures and the UK is a more violent society.

[X_Digger]

243. OMG, large number without context, be afwaid! Be vewwy afwaid!

There are about 300,000,000 guns in the hands of about 80,000,000 owners.

That 400,000? Represents about one tenth of one percent of all guns- ie, 99.87% of all guns are NOT used in such an activity.

That 400,000 also represents about half a percent of all owners- 99.5% of all gun owners will never be involved in such an activity.

Math. It's what's for dinner.

[GreenStormCloud]

232. You should carry a fire extinguisher in your car.

I have twice had occasion to need my vehicle fire extinguisher. Once the car in front of me on the interstate caught fire. I was able to keep the flames suppressed while the woman got her baby out of the back seat child seat.

[Starboard Tack]

234. I don't have a car. Too heavy for my bicycle.

[GreenStormCloud]

205. I am not a wannabe cop.

I am not fantasizing about being that responsible individual out there to rescue people from the roaming miscreants. I carry to rescue myself from possible street crime. Depending upon the situation I may or may not intervene in another's problem.

[GreenStormCloud]

206. Your posts are always on the pro-gun control side. N/T

[Starboard Tack]

220. I am more on the self control side

I don't think legislation is the answer. I think enlightenment is the answer.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

246. That is not what your posts would indicate

[GreenStormCloud]

164. Self-delete. Post in wrong spot.

[RSillsbee]

195. IF I understand you correctly

You're saying that in some heated debate th student w/ the permit is going to pull his piece to make a point. If this actually happened the permitee would be charged w/ the local variation of aggravated menacing, possibly go to jail and certainly lose his permit.

IMO this falls under the whole "shoot outs over parking spaces" meme and similar to that meme we don't see a number of instances of it happening.

So what,exactly, is the threat?

[Starboard Tack]

221. You focus on the permit all the time

That means little to me. If someone points a gun at you, do you really care if he has a permit or not. The usual scenario doesn't seem to be about parking places. Much more likely to be about jealousy or testosterone.

[X_Digger]

229. There's the rub.. folks who get permits rarely do that without justifiable provocation.

[slackmaster]

60. I guess you don't understand the concept of concealed weapons

:shrug:

[X_Digger]

63. I'm sure it's the Robert Bork 'moral harm' principle in action..

As writer Dan Baum said in a recent Harper's article (August, 2010)..

.....My friends who are appalled by the thought of widespread concealed weapons aren't impressed by this argument, or by the research demonstrating no ill effects of the shall-issue revolution. "I don't care," said one. "I don't feel safe knowing that people are walking around with guns. What about my right to feel safe? Doesn't that count for anything?"

Robert Bork tried out that argument in 1971, in defense of prosecuting such victimless crimes as drug abuse, writing in the Indiana Law Journal that “knowledge that an activity is taking place is a harm to those who find it profoundly immoral.”

It’s as bad an argument now as it was then. We may not like it that other people are doing things we revile—smoking pot, enjoying pornography, making gay love, or carrying a gun—but if we aren’t adversely affected by it, the Constitution and common decency argue for leaving it alone. My friend may feel less safe because people are wearing concealed guns, but the data suggest she isn't less safe....

[Starboard Tack]

104. Seems to be a big issue with you

Not for me. Concealed, exposed, still inappropriate in a classroom.

[GreenStormCloud]

130. Why innappropriate?

Explain why it would be wrong to be armed. Please use logic. Snark or emotion will mean that you can't defend your position using logic.

[Starboard Tack]

152. Because it is a classroom

A place of learning. Not a place for guns, booze, drugs, fighting. Just learning. Quite logical. Not complicated.

[GreenStormCloud]

167. Tell that to the victims at VT.

They never had a chance to defend themselves. VT was "guns free", except for Cho of course. He didn't pay any attention to the law, yet you expect the same failed law to somehow protect others.

Further, the only way a person can be armed while walking to and from their car is to be armed at the destination. That is why we carry in banks, restaurants, and similar places.

[PavePusher]

179. Preparedness for self-defense, by legal adults, has no place in a classroom?

And why do you equate such to intoxication and criminal agression?

You're funny!

[Starboard Tack]

223. What's to understand? Am I supposed to feel more secure?

Because you are hiding your gun doesn't make you any less deadly. What's the point? Are you trying to be sensitive?

[cleanhippie]

62. This is why people like Palin are admired. Ignorance is hip, apparently.

And your ignorance takes that cake.

[Hoopla Phil]

68. Campus carry is allowed on 71 campuses in the U.S. Please point where

there has been a problem associated with it.

[Glassunion]

84. Dude... Stop asking the question.

It does not fit the agenda...

[Starboard Tack]

97. Campus carry is allowed on 71 campuses in the U.S.

That is the problem.

[X_Digger]

99. So you just don't like it. Can't describe how it's been a problem, can't cite a rash of crimes..

Just.. "That is the problem".

[Starboard Tack]

101. Hey, I never liked nuclear power either

[X_Digger]

102. And I never liked green beans. But I'm not for banning them. n/t

[Starboard Tack]

105. Sorry, didn't realize you wouldn't understand the reference.

Tune in the TV or radio, wait for the pieces on Japan. It'll click eventually.

[X_Digger]

120. Oh I got it, but until you can demonstrate an analogous event on a college campus..

It's more emo-twaddle hyperbole.

[Starboard Tack]

151. Let's hope you're right and I'm wrong

"emo twaddle" I like that one

[PavePusher]

180. We don't have to "hope". We have empirical evidence.

Which you seem to be most strenuously ignoring.

Really, if you tried any harder, you'd pull something.

[Starboard Tack]

184. Empirical evidence of what?

That something that might happen is never going to happen? Like 3 Mile Island, Chernobyl and now Japan. They all had empirical evidence. What am I ignoring? That a bunch of Republican fuckwads have you guys cheering for them? What's that empirical evidence of? Mass stupidity?

[PavePusher]

185. I think your Disingenuousness Tendon just tore off the bone.

You might want to check that.

[Starboard Tack]

186. Now you're just being silly

[Glassunion]

145. Banning green beans would be just silly.

Lima beans on the other hand should be banned. Fucking gross.

Proliferation or something...

[X_Digger]

146. From my cold, green fingers.. n/t

[Glassunion]

147. Those who would sacrifice beans for a little yummy deserve neither.

[oneshooter]

153. +1000 !!! n/t

[Hoopla Phil]

116. You've contender here that campus carry would CAUSE problems. Please show me

where that has been the case anywhere on the 71 campuses that allow it.

[PavePusher]

79. To paraphrase Julius Marx....

"sometimes a gun is just a gun...".

There are many more reasons than you seem to appreciate.

[Starboard Tack]

96. That's deep

What reasons do I not appreciate? I leave my gun at home where it belongs.

[GreenStormCloud]

131. You do not seem to appreciate that a person may wish to defend themselves against crime.

Although anti-gun right people try very hard to deny it, violent crime does exist in the U.S.

[RSillsbee]

194. I would guess it depends on the class NT

[krispos42]

189. So when do we ban big strong people from the classroom?

How about people with surly attitudes?

[Common Sense Party]

11. "We"? Do you live in Idaho? n/t

[speltwon]

23. Ah, the fabled "need" justification...

This isn't about needs. When restricting people's rights, the burden is not on the restrictee (in this case lawful CCW holders on a college campus) to demonstrate a need. The burden is on the restricter, to establish a compelling govt. interest that trumps that right.

Aren't you glad you don't have to demonstrate a need to vote, post on the internet, etc?

[Starboard Tack]

38. When rights become wrongs it's time to rewrite them

[PavePusher]

40. No-one has wronged you....

get over yourself.

[Starboard Tack]

52. You don't know me

[GreenStormCloud]

58. Yes. That is what is happening. It is wrong to forbid CCW holder to carry on champuses.

That wrong is being corrected.

[cleanhippie]

64. Thats catchy. But thats all it is.

Right now, its nonsense.

[Starboard Tack]

106. Thanks Alice - now try biting the other side of the mushroom

[cleanhippie]

128. Done. no change, your comments are still nonsense.

I guess it wasn't a magic mushroom.

[Hoopla Phil]

70. 71 campuses allow it. Can you point to any wrongs done there?

[speltwon]

119. Even more than that

in WA State, some public campuses "ban it" via washington ADMINISTRATIVE CODE (Not criminal code), but these are unenforced administrative rules, since they run contrary to state law and the preemption doctrine has already been established. Those may not be listed as campuses that "allow" it, but nobody has been sanctioned for doing so, and according to superseding State law, those campuses cannot restrict carry.

[YllwFvr]

85. we already have them in our schools eom

[aquart]

19. LOL!

Background checks! I'm sure they're thorough and impressive. After all, what kind of background can a college junior have?

[cleanhippie]

21. The same kind you had.

And if there is nothing to disqualify them from the constitutional right, now they can exercise it.

Why does that bother you so much?

[Hoopla Phil]

30. The Texas background checks are very thorough.

Fingerprint cards, listing locations of all places lived, waiver to look into juvenile records, etcetera. I know that you are speaking out of ignorance as you clearly do not know what goes into a background check for CHL. What does surprise me though, is that you assume the most basic and/or cursory conditions are placed on obtaining a CHL.

[Starboard Tack]

36. How reassuring

[GreenStormCloud]

90. It should be.

CHL holders have a criminal conviction rate of 1/40th of 1%. That is 25 per 100K license holders. No other group of the population does as well as we do.

[oneshooter]

154. .025% n/t

[rl6214]

15. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over

and expecting a different result. We've tried the gun free zones and the only people that abide by those laws are the ones that abide by all laws. Certainly not the criminals so we are leaving our campuses like fish in a barrel. There have not been any problems at the colleges in states where it is legal to carry on campus.

[Starboard Tack]

41. Why would any student want to carry a gun on campus?

I just don't get it.

[Glassunion]

45. Simple...

As a whole, campus police, local police and other law enforcement agencies have failed to protect the public.

Do yourself a favor and look at the statistics on how many violent crimes are commited at colleges.

[Starboard Tack]

54. What are you? Some kind of vigilante?

You gonna take over where law enforcement agencies fail? You think that gives the rest of us peace of mind knowing you are out there ready to save the world with your six gun?

[X_Digger]

61. Self-defense is vigilantism now?

Sometimes I forget, you UK'ers have that whole 'walk on by' schtick..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/7885431/Britain-is-walk-on-by-society-because-of-changes-in-population.html

[cleanhippie]

66. And here come the insults. As soon as the argument fails, the insults follow.

Right on cue. Well done.

[GreenStormCloud]

69. Self-defense is NOT being a vigilante.

It is a cruel fact of life that the police can't escort everyone around everywhere they go. Violent crimes do happen on college campuses. It the individual's responsibility to see to their own safety if violent crime come calling. A gun is usually the best tool for self-defense that there is.

Why are you so against people defending themselves that you would label it being a vigilante? Do you really believe that people should passively submit to the depradations of violent street thugs?

[Starboard Tack]

94. Do you really want the police to escort you around everywhere you go?

If so, I totally understand why you would want to carry a gun. I am not against anyone defending themselves and if you live in a war zone you probably should carry a gun. Personally, I'd relocate.
"Vigilante justice" is sometimes spurred on by the perception that criminal punishment is either nonexistent or insufficient for the crime. Those who believe this see their governments as ineffective in enforcing the law; thus, such individuals fulfill the like-minded wishes of the community. In other instances, a person may choose a role of vigilante as a result of personal experience as opposed to a social demand.

[PavePusher]

113. You are still conflating (deliberately, I think) "vigilantism" with "self-defense". n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

248. Some of the best colleges and universities are in some fairly bad neighborhoods

USC and UMBC are examples that come to mind

[Glassunion]

74. Nope. Not a vigilante at all. But thanks for the insult.

Where were the police when I was begging 3 men for my life as they beat me?
Where were the police when 1,318,398 people were victims of violent crime last year?
Where were the police when 15,241 people were murdered last year?
Where were the police when 88,097 people were forcibly raped last year?
Where were the police when 408,217 people were robbed last year?

As to your snide comments...

"You gonna take over where law enforcement agencies fail?" Nope. But I will defend myself where they will/can not.
"You think that gives the rest of us peace of mind knowing you are out there ready to save the world with your six gun?" I'm not out to save the world, nor do I have a six gun. Your peace of mind does not concern me in the least.

[Starboard Tack]

93. "Your peace of mind does not concern me in the least"

Apparently not. And where was the insult? None was intended.

[Glassunion]

134. I abide by the law. Insinuating that I am otherwise is an insult.

Since you enjoy in making accusations about me I don't feel that your piece of mind is a concern of mine. If you were not so insulting I might have had a cordial dialog with you to perhaps put your mind at ease. However, from the tone of your posts, it would appear to me that you do not wish to have an open conversation. Therefore, your price of mind is of no concern to me.

Peace

[rl6214]

81. Why and where do you get the shtick about vigilantes

and protecting the world? I have no desire to protect the world or YOU for that matter. I carry to protect myself and my loved ones. If god forbid there were to be a campus shooter like there has been in the past, I WILL NOT go looking for that shooter. I will keep myself and my loved ones hidden out of the way and will IN NO WAY go out to try to stop someone from shooting you.

And I don't carry a six gun, it's either a 9mm, .40 cal or .45 acp semi auto depending on what I am wearing and how concealable each one can be.

[Starboard Tack]

92. Glad to hear that. Just keep it concealed please

and out of the classroom. That's all I ask. Personally, I keep mine at home.

[rl6214]

109. I will follow the law

The law says if I carry concealed, that it must be concealed, I don't need YOU telling me "just keep it concealed". If the law also says I can carry it in campus buildings/classrooms, I am going to carry if I so choose, because I will follow the law. Your opinion or statement about keeping it "out of the classroom" means nothing to me.

You keep yours where you want to, I'll keep mine where I want to, as long as the law allows it.

[oneshooter]

156. I on the other hand have been known to carry a 4 3/4", 45cal. SAA in a concealed carry IWB holster.

But then again I live in Texas.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[Union Scribe]

126. Lol

Are you going for some kind of record for specious arguments in one thread? Maybe you need to spend some more time on your hobby.

[X_Digger]

48. This might help..

http://ope.ed.gov/security/


Criminal Offenses - On campus
Criminal offense.........................2007.....2008.....2009
---------------------------------------------------------------
a. Murder/Non-negligent manslaughter.......45.......16.......17
b. Negligent manslaughter...................4........3........0
c. Sex offenses - Forcible..............2,740....2,677....2,590
d. Sex offenses - Non-forcible.............43.......37.......72
e. Robbery..............................1,966....1,966....1,866
f. Aggravated assault...................2,784....2,719....2,675
g. Burglary............................30,435...29,613...24,039
h. Motor vehicle theft..................4,951....4,371....4,268
i. Arson..................................789......709......648

eta: fixed table header

[Starboard Tack]

53. Wonderful! Now you want to bring a bunch of kids carrying guns

into the mix. Sorry, but that is a really dumb idea. In fact, it is way beyond dumb.

[X_Digger]

56. Crime is not non-existent on college campuses.

You've yet to back up your opinion with anything stronger than "dumb".

Why do you want to strip womens' ability to defend themselves from rapists with the most effective weapon?

[cleanhippie]

67. Well, you would know about that.

I have yet to see one of your posts that is smart.

[Hoopla Phil]

71. Not kids, adults that have a valid CHL.

And self defense is a right. Your post suggests that you would not allow law enforcement to carry on campus either.

[GreenStormCloud]

72. Those same ADULTS can get a license to carry off-campus.

It is currently legal in ALL the states that have shall-issue for any person who is 21 or over to be able to get a license to carry concealed (If they meet the other qualifications.)and carry everywhere they go except on campus. In all of those states for years that has been legal. What makes you think the those same ADULTS will suddenly become blood crazed killers just by coming on campus?

[Starboard Tack]

100. What makes you think the those same ADULTS

will suddenly become blood crazed killers just by coming on campus?
How many will be too many for you? What body count do you find acceptable?

[GreenStormCloud]

133. Remember that guns also save lives.

My wife has twice prevented herself from being mugged by being armed. And a bit over 50 years ago she prevented herself from being raped by grabbing her mother's shotgun. Since she is now somewhat frail the mugging would likely have seriously injured or killed her. The body count must be balanced by the saves. Since we are talking specivically about CCW holders it is fairly easy to demonstrate that CCW holders have saved more ijnocent lives with their guns then they have killed.

Your chances of being struck by lightning are about 27 times greater then being illegally shot and killed by a CCW holder. Yet you seem to fear us to the point of hysteria. Why do you fear us so much when the statistics prove that you are extremely safe around us?

[Starboard Tack]

155. Wrong, I don't fear you

I just don't think it is a good idea to carry guns to class or other public places. I'm sorry that your wife had to go through all that. I assume she wasn't in a classroom when she grabbed her mother's shotgun. I guess we all choose where to live and some find themselves in dangerous places. The most dangerous place is often the home.
It would be interesting to find valid statistics on legal self defense use of firearms.

[GreenStormCloud]

168. Just take a look at CCW shootings.

Compare how many people CCW holders annually unlawfully shoot and kill with the number of times that a CCW holder shoots and kills a criminal while defending himself.

The VPC number is not an annual number but is cumulative since 2007. Cumulative yields a bigger, scarier number. I also include non-shooting deaths, and shootings at home where having a CCW is not relevant.

There are website that track self-defense with guns. In many of them the defender is a permit holder.

You will be able to quickly see that we are shooting a lot more bad guys than innocents.

You are 27 times more likely to be struck by lightning than to be illegally shot and killed by a CCW holder.

We won't suddenly turn into kill crazed lunatics just because we happen to be on a college campus.

[Starboard Tack]

176. Links please

[Glassunion]

219. Link

Total Convictions in Texas: 65,561
Convictions of CHL Holders: 101
CHL Holder Percentage of Total Convictions: 0.1541%

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/ConvictionRatesReport2009.pdf

[Starboard Tack]

224. Thanks

So, 1.26 of DEADLY CONDUCT CONVICTIONS in Texas are CHL holders. (That's about 1 in 80) You find that number acceptable?

[X_Digger]

231. 1.26%? Yah, I find that acceptable..

That's a graph comparing the rates (among each group) of crime convictions. Nuns are probably the only group less likely to commit crimes.

[GreenStormCloud]

233. Murder conviction for 2009 for CHL holders: ONE

One conviction for murder out of 400,000+ CHL holders.
406 murder convictions for the general population.

[Starboard Tack]

235. That's one too many

[Glassunion]

244. Depends...

Deadly Conduct is a misdemeanor and covers a wide array of offenses.
Deadly Conduct DISCHARGE FIREARM which had 1 conviction of CHL holders is a felony.

Were all 19 convictions for brandishing a weapon? Doubtful.

I googled it and found some things that resulted in convictions for deadly conduct in Texas:

Aggresive Driving
Reckless Driving
Falling asleep and letting your pillow catch fire from the bong you made out of a humidifier(my fav, but alas this was not a CHL holder as the convicted was too young to obtain one)
One was a State Rep.
Another was a police officer.
Reckless Boating
DUI
Spraying an athsma inhailer at someone
Smuggling Undocumented Immigrants
Skiing behind a truck

So unless you can tell me exactly what conduct spurred each of those 19 convictions, I cannot have an opinion on that one line that was pulled from the report.

[Atypical Liberal]

76. No one has advocated arming kids.

In order to obtain a CCW permit you have to be 21 years old.

[Starboard Tack]

98. Exactly

[rl6214]

82. Those "kids" at 21 years old are considered old enough to

Drink alcohol
Serve in the Military
Become peace officer and CARRY GUNS

so your arguement is, as you said, "in fact...way beyond dumb".

[Starboard Tack]

95. So let's arm them up and send 'em to class. Oh boy!

Remember, for every one of you good liberal democrats who embrace this kind of madness, there are 10 or more RW T-baggers. I don't envy you keeping that kind of company.

And kids don't drink in class, the military students don't drink or bear arms in class and nobody did in any class I ever attended as a student or a teacher. Maybe that's the reason no-one was shot. Hmm!

[rl6214]

112. Who said anything about "arm them all up"?

They are probably armed already. This law is not going to make someone go out and mysteriously buy a gun. This type of law has already been approved and in practice in 4 states, 70 or so colleges, can you please point out a problem that has occured in ANY of these states/colleges. Until you can, your arguement dosen't hold water.

[catenary]

163. Same way as it was at Virginia Tech.

What kind of "gun" do you have?

[Starboard Tack]

225. None of your business what kind of gun I have

I'm not a gun flasher. I keep my guns for real emergencies.

[oneshooter]

157. Kids? So you conceder 21 yr olds, many of which are veterans,"kids"? n/t

[GreenStormCloud]

57. Same reason that I carry a gun everywhere else I go. N/T

[cleanhippie]

65. Its ok not to get it. Just don't try to bring everyone to your level of ignorance.

[Atypical Liberal]

75. Many adults attend night-school.

Many adults attend night school after work. This can mean walking across campuses in the dark. I'm sure on most campuses you are perfectly safe, but I can totally understand why people in some areas might want to be armed.

The bottom line is people would carry a firearm on a campus for the same reason they carry it anywhere else - to be prepared in the event of being attacked.

[Hoopla Phil]

91. Read this DU Post just started a while ago. Then maybe you'll "get it"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=392867&mesg_id=392867

[Starboard Tack]

107. I get the problem, just not agreeing on the solution

[PavePusher]

114. So far you have not suggested any alternatives.

You've merely cast aspersions, insinuations and innuendo. Classic, but loosing, strategies.

[Hoopla Phil]

115. Would you put forth a solution please - rather than tell people they cannot

lawfully carry firearms on campus if qualified.

[Starboard Tack]

139. Easy. Leave them at home

[GreenStormCloud]

141. How does leaving my guns at home protect me from knives...

...clubs, young and big muscles, etc.? Your solution empowers the violent criminals. Why do you desire to empower human predators?

[Starboard Tack]

159. My God, where on earth do you live?

Sounds like my worst nightmare. I'd be armed to the teeth in that world. I'll be driving through Texas next month. Are there places I should avoid?

[GreenStormCloud]

166. Obviously I don't now live, nor have ever lived, in you crime-free Utopia.

Please tell me where in the U.S. this poace of absolute zero violent crime exists.

[Starboard Tack]

174. Yes, Where I live.

I have no knowledge of any serious crime being committed within 25 miles of where I live. Never seen a gun outside of a home here either. I don't think it's the only place either, but you do have a good point. The land of the free, home of the brave is not generally a crime free Utopia. We might look to other countries as examples, before we start arming college kids.

[friendly_iconoclast]

182. Too late, "college kids" are legally armed at several dozen campuses already.

I know those of your persuasion on guns like to pretend this situation isn't so, but the denial is becoming ridiculous....

[Starboard Tack]

183. What denial?

Because I don't agree with you? I'm just participating in a conversation. You want me to go away because I disagree? Get over yourself. Trust me, it's a much bigger deal for you than it is for me. My kids don't attend any of your gun colleges. Nobody I know ever talks about guns, except in this forum, which I find somewhat fascinating. That's all.

[catenary]

210. Many gay folks don't talk about homosexuality around ignorant bigots.

Or so I've noticed.

[Starboard Tack]

211. And your point is?

[catenary]

214. Over your head, apparently.

...

[Starboard Tack]

215. Way over! Sorry

Welcome to DU anyway. Maybe we'll get to have a conversation that my tired old brain can handle.

[GreenStormCloud]

192. College ADULTS, not kids.

The law will not change who can get a CHL. It will not enable any new people to get one. It will simply expand where already qualified people can carry. Please remember that our crime rate is 1/40 of 1% per year. That include non violent crimes as well. Last year we had exactly ONE murder conviction out of over 400,000 CHL holders. You are 27 times more likely to be struck by lightning then illegally shot and killed by a CCW holder.

Why are you so afraid of us?

[Starboard Tack]

216. Who do you mean by us?

[GreenStormCloud]

240. People with CCWs. N/T

[X_Digger]

144. How does leaving it at home help the woman being raped in the above story?

Did you get lost?

[X_Digger]

175. *bump* .. see post #144. n/t

[X_Digger]

241. *bump* .. see post #144. n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

245. What makes you think it is just students who will be carrying?

I carry on campus (legally). I do it when I have a firearm with me and chose not to leave it in the car or on the motorcycle since it is less likely to get stolen. I doubt any of my students notice though many know that I teach firearms off campus.

[Wickerman]

2. Why are they discriminating against the frosh?

I suppose not all freshman are 18 yet?

[GreenStormCloud]

10. Minimum age for CCW in most states is 21. N/T

[Wickerman]

13. ok, that didn;t really answer the question

but thanks for the trivia.

[fascisthunter]

5. anyone advocating for this

is sick....

[GreenStormCloud]

7. Why?

If a person is a responsible CCW license holder off-campus, do you really think that they will become a kill crazy lunatic merely by coming on campus?

[fascisthunter]

28. Because it shows how paranoid people are who feel the need to walk around with one

the rest are fools who like to feel powerful... it has nothing to do with safety but it does have more to do with a mentality.

[rl6214]

43. Oh come on

don't use that holier than thou approach. It's a choice, your choice is to not carry a gun, why do you feel you need to demonize a ridicule those that do want to carry, for whatever reason. Most everyone I know that is into the gun culture, and those that carry will give you the typical boy scout response...I want to be prepared for whatever life throws at me. My choice, and if you want to call that "a mentality" well then yeah, it's a mentality, of being prepared.

[GreenStormCloud]

73. Violent crime, while down greatly, is still a reality, even if you do try to deny it. N/T

[Atypical Liberal]

77. The mentality of being prepared.

Because it shows how paranoid people are who feel the need to walk around with one the rest are fools who like to feel powerful... it has nothing to do with safety but it does have more to do with a mentality.

I do not understand why you feel that people who choose to carry a firearm are doing so because they are "fools who like to feel powerful".

Firearms are simply a tool. It is a tool that most people are unlikely to need, but, if needed, is needed desperately. It is no different than carrying insurance, or first aid kids, or spare tires, or having smoke detectors, or having fire extinguishers. These are all tools that we have in the rare event that we need them, because the tools are cheap and the consequences of not having them when you need them are dire.

It's all about being prepared.

[rl6214]

16. Anyone opposing it is a coward!

See, I can throw random statements out there too.

[fascisthunter]

26. cowards need to carry guns

[Glassunion]

31. Like the police... Damn cowards...

[PavePusher]

33. Insult noted....

and duly dismissed as coming from bigotry and ignorance.

Cheers.

[GreenStormCloud]

34. I am a senior citizen.

Do you expect me to fight off a mugger barehanded? Or do you expect me to get beaten so you can feel good politically? I choose to carry a gun so that I can defend against a street criminal if I have to.

[X_Digger]

49. Do you have a fire extinguisher in you home?

Do you have seat belts in your car?

Are you a 'coward'? Afraid of fire, are ya? Afraid of an accident? What, are you such a poor driver? *snort*

Being prepared for a rare, yet potentially life altering event is not being a coward.

[Union Scribe]

127. Then why are you so fucking scared of them?

[PavePusher]

132. Now, now... pointing out their inconsistancy isn't playing fair. n/t

[Starboard Tack]

44. Think you got that backwards

Why would someone who opposes carrying a gun a coward? Especially in a world full of armed felons and CCW self appointed deputies all ready for a showdown in the classroom.

[rl6214]

83. I was making a ridiculous comment to go along with

the ridiculous comment about having a gun=being sick.

[Starboard Tack]

103. He never said having a gun=being sick

He said anyone supporting carrying on campus is sick. Big difference. There's a time and a place for everything and by supporting this kind of legislation, you further marginalize yourselves amongst fellow democrats, which serves none of us well.

[rl6214]

108. Many of these carry bills are receiving full support

from democrats as well as reps, are they being marginalized amongst fellow democrats?

[Starboard Tack]

111. Not from any democrats I talk to outside of the Gungeon

[rl6214]

118. You need to look at the voting records for the bills

being passed. Many are supported by and passed by democratic legislators. They are the ones voting on and passing these bills, not the democrats you talk to outside of the gungeon. Those are the ones that count.

[Starboard Tack]

137. Any legislator who supports guns in classrooms will never get my vote

[GreenStormCloud]

143. Obviously. But other folks are voting pro-RKBA.

Your side is losing.

[Starboard Tack]

149. Maybe so. Doesn't make it right.

[rl6214]

158. Not right in your mind dosen't change the fact

The majority of the population support it, that's what counts.

[Starboard Tack]

161. You think the majority is always right?

That's what counts in your mind.

[Starboard Tack]

178. Which majority?

In a recent poll conducted by a group of Texas newspapers, 67 percent of registered voters said they opposed guns on campus. At Texas AM University, one of the state’s most conservative campuses, a survey of more than 13,000 students revealed that 57 percent were against the idea.

http://education-news.us/2011/03/12/campus-gun-bill-called-slam-dunk/

[rl6214]

200. Our representative are elected to vote the way

their constituants want them to vote. That is the majority rule, not loaded polls. When we start passing laws by what the polls say, let me know.

[LAGC]

188. So you're a single-issue voter?

You're saying it doesn't matter how good a Democrat is on gay rights, the environment, poverty issues, and civil liberties in general, you'd still vote against him just because he/she supported campus carry?

Shame on you.

[GreenStormCloud]

135. You are self-limiting yourself to people who are like yourself.

That is normal, we all exclude from our circle of friends people who hold views radically different from our own. Hence the famous quote, "How could McGovern lose? Everybody I know voted for him." You simply don't associate with Democrats who are pro-gun. But we do exist.

[Starboard Tack]

136. Actually I associate with all kinds of people.

Where I live I know very few people who vote Democrat. Half the people are Libertarian and the other half Republican. So we don't talk politics too much. Thankfully, I haven't met anyone who ever talks about guns, let alone carries one, except for the local deputy and he seems pretty harmless.

[GreenStormCloud]

142. Most people who know me don't know that I carry.

It isn't something that we talk about much. You could meet me at the check-out counter and never know. So how do you know that someone you meet is unarmed? Since 400,000+ people in Texas have CHL I assume that every day I pass by some armed people. It doesn't freak me out.

[Starboard Tack]

150. Doesn't freak me out either

I just find it disturbing that people feel that need. You say most people who know you are unaware that you're armed. Do you think some of them might feel differently if they knew?

[GreenStormCloud]

169. Well then, it doesn't disturb me either.

As for what others think. That I carry isn't something that I keep as a deep dark secret. It just isn't a primary topic of conversation. Usually I talk about the mudane everyday stuff that everybody else talks about. I tend to avoid politics in daily conversations. At our monthly neighborhood Crime Watch meetings most folks there know we carry, but nobody cares. Most others at the meeting don't have CHLs.

In general friends who are close and have been so for a long time know because they have been around us long enough for the subject to have come up. More recent fiends or people who are less emotionally close may or may not know. The lady that usually checks us out at the local grocery doesn't know, however the butcher does. I think that most people wouldn't care one way or another.

[cleanhippie]

22. Ahh, insulting comments right from the start. Stay classy.

[speltwon]

24. Better stay out of well established Blue State WA

then. It's legal here, as well as several other states. Here's the IMPORTANT question... is there any evidence that states that allow CCW on campus have a higher rate of on campus violent crime? That would be a rational reason to oppose this (even though the correlation would not establish causation, it's at least SOMETHING remotely relevant)

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ramulux]

6. Anyone who has been to college

can't possibly think this is a good idea.

[GreenStormCloud]

9. I graduated in 1973 from Texas State.

I think it is a great idea. I have a CHL and I won't turn into a kill crazy lunatic by merely going onto a college campus.

[Starboard Tack]

46. Damn, that's a relief, 'cos they got guys with big muscles on campus

[Hoopla Phil]

50. And crime too. Please see post #55.

[Common Sense Party]

12. What a foolish post. Many, many college graduates have no problem with this.

I see nothing wrong with it whatsoever.

[X_Digger]

14. I'm one who has and does think it's a good idea.

Been thinking about going back for my master's.

[speltwon]

25. I went to college (grad and undergrad) and I think it's a good idea

It's ALREADY legal in my state. I've carried on college campuses here. Not because I specifically chose to, but because I was already carrying and was under no legal obligation to disarm upon entering the rarefied campus climate

[rl6214]

17. Anyone who has been to college

can't possibly think this is a bad idea.

[high_and_mighty]

20. I have taken classes at BSU. I have played d&d for years in their student apartments.

This is no big deal. I do find open carry being allowed surprising. So someone under the age of 21 could in fact carry on campus under this law. Obtaining the firearm either someone gifting it to them or finding one through the local zidaho.com website/ want ads in the Idaho Statesmen. I sold a glock and an ar15 in less than two days through online want ads. Low balled myself I guess. The people who purchased my firearms showed me their ccw license first though.

[friendly_iconoclast]

35. No, they couldn't open carry legally. That is still 21+. n/t

[PavePusher]

80. Not quite accurate as stated.

They could not O.C. on campus legally, as that requires a C.C. permit, even if you O.C.

They could O.C. off-campus perfectly legally.

The Devil, as always, is in the details...

[high_and_mighty]

88. I didn't see that mentioned in the article

I tried looking at the text of the bill. All I kept seeing was the bill listing that the ruling bodies for the campuses have authority over student housing nothing else.

44 33-2122A. AUTHORITY OF COMMISSION TO REGULATE FIREARMS. A dormitory
45 housing commission shall have no authority to regulate the lawful possession
46 of firearms except that the commission may regulate or prohibit the posses47
sion of firearms in undergraduate student housing owned or operated by the
48 district.

http://www.legislature.idaho.gov/legislation/2011/H0222.pdf

If you can find it let me know so I can correct myself.

[PavePusher]

117. This, I think:

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/idaho.pdf

http://www.opencarry.org/maps.html

18 to O.C. without licence, 21 to get CC licence.

I'm not sure if the proposed law will require CC, or simply require the public C or U to abide by all state laws.

[high_and_mighty]

89. Open carry does not require a licence in Idaho

Someone I used to work with told me about his experience while open carrying at the Boise public library. Don't remember if he was 19 or 20 at the time.

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?43718-Cops-called-on-me-at-Boise-Public-Library!&s=89aca559d3ea062e9c0d84f0209e2f2e

[Major Hogwash]

122. Nobody can open carry on campus at BSU. Not nobody, not no how.

College policy.

[high_and_mighty]

125. Not yet...

The reported incident was at the Boise public library. On Capitol across the street from the Boise art museum.

[oneshooter]

160. "Not nobody, not no how" WOW the cops even disarm!!!!! n/t

[Major Hogwash]

171. That's called reality.

They do it every single day of the week out here.
It's a novel concept called "enforcing the law".

There are people arrested here for walking around schools with guns, and into bars with guns, and into hospitals with guns all of the time.

[oneshooter]

172. So what you are saying is that even Law Enforcement, the cops,

disarm, remove their weapons, when they go onto campus. How about Federal Law Enforcement officers, state cops, the campus police? All disarm when they step onto campus grounds?

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[Major Hogwash]

173. The way it stands right now only the county sheriff's office is allowed on campus with guns.

There is no campus police.
The college contracts with the county sheriff's office for enforcement so the city doesn't have to provide police to patrol the campus.
Every other year the contract is renewed with both the city and the county bidding for the contract.

State cops are spread too far and wide to patrol the campus.
And the feds have better things to do than to patrol the campus, too.

Students and anyone attending the college can not open carry on campus and they are not supposed to have guns in their vehicles if their vehicles are parked in parking lots on campus. Parking on the city streets near the campus is their only option.

[Name removed]

181. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oneshooter]

187. Did you or did you not say this on Post #122

"Nobody can open carry on campus at BSU. Not nobody, not no how."

And on Post#160 I said ""Not nobody, not no how" WOW the cops even disarm!!!!! n/t"

Then on Post#171 you said "They do it every single day of the week out here.
It's a novel concept called "enforcing the law"."

And on Post#173 you crawfish by saying "The way it stands right now only the county sheriff's office is allowed on campus with guns."

So despite your self standing statement on Post#122, you admit that there is open carry on campus.

As I called you for it and you deleted my post, tell the truth the first time and don't crawfish when called out.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[Major Hogwash]

199. Cops do disarm civilians all of the time. Of course, law enforcement is allowed to carry on campus.

And I can't delete a thing here.
I'm not a mod and I don't even bother to alert on anyone's comments here much at all.
Certainly not any of yours.

So, if you lost a post, Xinloi.

[oneshooter]

212. Not according to you " "Nobody can open carry on campus at BSU. Not nobody, not no how." n/t

[high_and_mighty]

193. Its not illegal to carry a gun in a bar.

Very few places in Idaho are illegal to carry in.

From the State Attorney's website

http://www.ag.idaho.gov/concealedWeapons/concealedWeapons_index.html

"Are there places where I cannot carry a concealed weapon even with a permit?

Yes. You may not carry a concealed weapon in a courthouse, juvenile detention facility, adult correctional facility, prison, jail, public school or private school.
Federal law may prohibit you from carrying a weapon in places such as federal courthouses and airports.
If you have any doubt, you should contact the government entity prior to carrying a weapon onto its premises."


I would have to say you are mistaken for saying people are arrested all the time for those situations. Though I guessing at least one person has been arrested for carrying near a school but I can't think of anything off the top of my head.

[Major Hogwash]

198. It's up to the owner of the bar. You can't open carry in most bars, and most bars will toss you out

if they find out you have a concealed weapon.

I guess you don't know as much about Boise as you say you do.

[Major Hogwash]

202. You can't open carry or have a concealed weapon of any kind at either hospital in Boise either.

You can try to carry one in.
But, you'll wind up in the hoosegow.
Both hospitals here have their own security police.

That's the hospital's policy -- no weapons of any kind.
That's straight up, I'm not bs'ing anyone here.

[high_and_mighty]

203. You would be arrested it you refused to leave when asked.

You seem you be confusing hospital policy and law. Same with if someone was to carry on campus currently. It isn't illegal and the person carrying will not be arrested but they could be kicked out of school if caught. Police could charge them with trespassing if they tried to stay on campus or hospital grounds.

I posted what the Idaho Attorney General's website considered off limits based on state law. Carrying any where not listed there will not get you arrested simply for having a weapon on you. Idaho also has a preemption law so counties and cities cannot restrict where people carry.

This is also straight up. Idaho's Attorney General is not trying to bs you. I have posted links giving credence to my position. Doing so in your posts will help your side of the discussion.

[Major Hogwash]

207. There are signs at the entrances of both hospitals forbidding weapons of any kind.

My friend is a security officer for St Lukes hospital.

If you walk past that sign at the door with a weapon, you are considered an armed assailant and the security police will NOT ask you to simply leave.
They will disarm you, handcuff you, and call the Boise city police.
And you will be charged with trespassing with a weapon on private property.

The same is true for St Alphonsus hospital.

I'm not giving you links, I'm giving you facts.
If you don't believe me, tough shit!
I've lived in Boise for over 40 years.

[Major Hogwash]

208. When I moved here, Ralph . . .

There was no frickin' Olive Garden.
The Boise Towne Square was a horse pasture.
With 2 mules in it.
The city limits towards the west ended at Curtis Road!!
The population was 37,000.
Their was only 1 high school in those days, Boise High.
Boise State was just a small college, not a university.
And their football team sucked clear up until 1972.
The head coach was Tony Knap.

"Look ma, no hands."
No damn links either, just factoids.
Okay?
Feel better now?

[high_and_mighty]

209. Could you tell me what law the open carrier would be violating?

Here is a link to the Idaho statute on trespassing.

http://legislature.idaho.gov/idstat/Title18/T18CH70SECT18-7008.htm

You will not find any mention of firearms, weapons, guns, or being armed in the statute. If someone has a lawful reason for being at the hospital I don't see the police arresting them simply for having a gun on their hip unless they refuse to leave when asked as listed in the statute. Again hospital policy does not equal state law.

[Major Hogwash]

217. Private property laws.

The hospitals and bars are considered private property.
You can't just walk in to someone's private property carrying a gun.

I don't think you are sincere about learning about how guns are treated in Idaho.

[high_and_mighty]

218. They are open to the public.

I am not saying people should carry on private property that has a posted sign prohibiting firearms but simply that the sign has no legal weight in Idaho. Idaho isn't like Texas where a posted 30.06 No Firearms sign does have legal consequences.

I am reasonably well schooled on the subject of carrying a firearm in Idaho. Every time "No Firearms" sign questions have popped up online on various forums the response for Idaho has been that they carry no weight. I haven't seen anyone debate that they do except you. I have posted links to what Idaho's Attorney General lists as off limits and the Idaho statute on criminal trespass. If you have something to offer besides your sweet, sweet words I am all ears.

[oneshooter]

213. "That's the hospital's policy -- no weapons of any kind." even the cops have to disarm? n/t

[high_and_mighty]

204. You are more than likely correct about open carry in bars.

Closest I've seen to open carry in bars was when I worked as a busboy at Olive garden and saw someone open carry in the cafe area. No one asked him to leave. I'm guessing there are few people that open carry in bars that don't at least also serve food.

[Major Hogwash]

29. Or high school

for that matter.

[rl6214]

47. Nothing like that was ever said or implied

try to stay up with the conversation or leave it to the adults.

[Major Hogwash]

123. Hahaha --- you're not even in Idaho!!!!!!!!!

[Major Hogwash]

124. The Republicans in the House in Idaho ran on a jobs platform, not this type of thing.

They didn't campaign to let everyone carry guns on college campuses.
The bill, if it passes, and I'm sure it will, will be thrown out in court.

Because the colleges are land grant colleges, and over a million people live near or in the cities those colleges are located at.
So, 41 House Republicans are not going to tell the entire population of Idaho that we are now going to turn the colleges into the Wild West.

They haven't created any jobs here as yet -- which is what they campaigned on.
Typical rethuglican politicians.

Since I live here, I have the right to speak up about it.

[high_and_mighty]

162. Would you explain the land grant college and challenge in court part?

I see we have one land grant university in Idaho; the University of Idaho. Utah has one land grant university as well and it's state legislature didn't have much issue with keeping campus carry. Will the challenge be in federal court?

I personally don't see it being opposed in court but I could be wrong.

[Major Hogwash]

170. Sure thing.

It's in the state's constitution that the land grant colleges set their own policies without interference from the state legislature.

Which is exactly what this bill does.
It would require a constitutional amendment to alter the way guns are treated at the colleges.
And that ain't going to happen.

[LAGC]

190. Could you please point me out where in the Idaho Constitution it says that?

I browsed around Article IX and didn't see anything about land-grant colleges.

http://www.legislature.idaho.gov/idstat/IC/ArtIX.htm

The closest I could find was Section 8 which says: "No law shall ever be passed by the legislature granting any privileges to persons who may have settled upon any such public lands, subsequent to the survey thereof by the general government, by which the amount to be derived by the sale, or other disposition of such lands, shall be diminished, directly or indirectly..." -- but that seems to only cover people who SETTLE (as in try to live on, or have property being annexed by) said land.

And Section 10 only applies to the University of Idaho.

So I'm curious where you get that from.

[Major Hogwash]

201. No, that's not true at all. You'd need a lawyer to explain to you why you are wrong, though.

It does not just apply to the U of I.
There is case law that sets precedence here from lawsuits filed many years ago to prevent the U of I from getting preferential treatment from the state.
Funding for ISU, which is located in Pocatello, was being ignored at the time, as it was for BSU, which is located in Boise.
So the statutes were changed in the 1970s to apply the same principles of funding, policies, etc to those 2 colleges the same way they were applied to the U of I.
They wanted to treat the 3 colleges the same as far as the finances and laws were concerned.

I'm not an attorney, but I read a lot about the way the attitude was in the state legislature back in the 70s when the Democrats were in control of the legislature. We had a Democrat governor at the time as well, Cecil Andrus.
What had happened was just a matter of history, the state had given preferential treatment to the U of I because it was a land grant college.
At the time it was the largest college in Idaho, both financially and with the number of students.
This didn't make a lot of sense to people who lived in Ada County, where BSU is located, since Boise is the capital of Idaho and is the financial center of the state.

So, when those changes went into effect, they weren't altered very much by the courts or the legislatures for nearly 30 years. There was a lot of concern over "Idaho Place" when the U of I was caught fudging their books in the early 2000s. It was a mess, to be sure.

Now the Republicans are trying to force issues on the people of Idaho that they did not campaign on.
They haven't passed a job creations bill or created one single job in the state of Idaho.
I tried to answer your questions as thoroughly as I could.
But, it won't matter if the Governor signs this bill into law, which there is no doubt in my mind that he will, because he is a slug.
And that's the nicest thing I've said about that asshole in 30 years!

[slackmaster]

59. I have a degree from a major university, and you don't speak for me

:hi:

[Atypical Liberal]

78. I have night school twice a week.

I've been going to school at night for decades now. I think it's a great idea for responsible adults to be able to carry firearms wherever they go.

[Euromutt]

86. I've been to college

Within the past ten years, in fact, and I don't see a problem. Ergo, your assertion is incorrect.

[YllwFvr]

87. im in college and think its a great idea

many of the instructors carry to class every day. Nearly 100% of them

[ProgressiveProfessor]

247. I teach at university and do not have a problem with it

Very few will choose to carry. Those that do would mostly be off campus residents or part timers, and all over 21. Other states allow it and there are no more problems than those that do not.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jpak]

230. Teh Stoooopid - it still fucking burns

yup

[oneshooter]

249. Have you tried Rolaids? n/t