Why not make CCW easier to get?

[VoteProgressive]

The license costs in some states, with training is over $250. Which is way too much in my opinion. It should be a function of the state and not a money making deal. A break even deal.

Make it like a drivers license test.

You go to Motor Vehicles department and take a closed book test on gun safety and the state laws. They could give you the state provided booklet like they do for drivers licenses. You study it and then take a test.

Then you find a state approved trainer who has you shoot 5-10 rounds at a range with your gun and has you prove gun safety, etc. 15 minutes at most. He signs off and you are good to go. It is up to you to get ready for that test.

$15 for the state CC test and $25 maybe for the shooting part.

Total cost $40 and then maybe $15 more for the photo at the DMV office for the official license.

The cost prohibits some from getting the license.

[RSillsbee]

1. Why not just go Vermont Carry coast to coast? NT

[VoteProgressive]

65. What is that?

[RSillsbee]

71. Vermont Carry

In Vermont a law abiding citizen who may legally own a firearm may carry it at his discretion w/out any type of permit. This is also the case in Alaska, Arizona and Wyoming. Several other states have similar legislation on the table as we speak

In pro rights circles this is called "Vermont Carry" because Vermont was the first

[VoteProgressive]

89. Ok, I still think a simple test on gun safety and state CCW laws would not...

Be too intrusive.

[HERVEPA]

2. Why not just stop carrying guns.

[slackmaster]

3. I'm sure that everyone on this forum respects your choice not to carry a gun

:hi:

[HERVEPA]

5. As you probably know,

i wasn't suggesting that I be the only one not to carry.
As you may suspect, I find the gun culture in this country, especially among those identifying as liberal, to be reprehensible.
Used to be liberals supported strong gun control.

[ThatPoetGuy]

7. +1.

Liberals do still support gun control.

[rrneck]

19. Yep. It makes a lovely echo

from the political wilderness.

[Callisto32]

67. Liberals support control, eh?

English fail.

[ZombieHorde]

97. English fail.

Come on, what's the point of pointing out colloquial speech?

[spin]

8. RKBA is a very liberal concept ...

Imagine a country to trust and respect its citizens enough to own and even carry firearms. Talk about power to the people.

After a couple of decades of nothing but lies and propaganda from organizations who oppose firearms, many liberals have decided to drop their support for strong gun control.

Liberals, after all, are very intelligent. For example, for many years we have heard that every time a state passes a concealed carry law, blood will flow in the streets. It never happens.

[petronius]

9. Since we're tossing that word around, what I find reprehensible are so-called liberals

who leap onto authoritarian bandwagons, are eager to restrict the rights, freedoms, and privileges of others without valid cause, and think the Constitution is some sort of a la carte menu.

But that wouldn't describe you, would it? I'm sure by "strong gun control" you refer to the sort of rational and fact-based laws that are supported by every gun-owning liberal who frequents this site...

[RSillsbee]

12. And it cost us some major elections

Google AWB 94

[rrneck]

18. Used to be liberals supported unions

I often wonder how many union members are gun owners.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-labor-union-decline

[slackmaster]

40. True liberals (IMO, of course) support keeping choices available to responsible people

That is not inconsistent with strong gun control.

[lawodevolution]

87. Strong gun control deprives most responsible people from being able to own firearms.

[slackmaster]

98. Then I oppose "strong gun control"

If that's what it means.

[cleanhippie]

47. "Used to be liberals supported strong gun control" - Yep, then liberals realized it was

not only losing elections, but none of the arguments FOR gun control were based in reality.



As you may suspect, I find the anti-civil right (Second Amendment) culture in this country, especially those identifying as liberal, to be reprehensible.
Used to be liberals supported ALL civil rights.

[ThatPoetGuy]

59. Well, despite the NRA propaganda you've been listening to,

liberals -- and average Americans -- are still intelligent enough to support gun control.

http://people-press.org/report/?pageid=1920

And "reality" is not the same as NRA propaganda.

[cleanhippie]

66. I'm waiting on an intelligent argument FOR it. Why don't you start with one.

Give one intelligent argument, backed by facts and data, that shows how removing guns from lawful owners will change the crime rate.

Ready, set, go!

[GreenStormCloud]

80. Then why are pro-gun control politicians losing so badly in elections? N/T

[Callisto32]

68. Hmm.

Define "gun culture."

I have a feeling what you don't like is "criminal culture."

[lawodevolution]

86. Bigot

Some people also find the cultures of African Americans to be reprehensible, like the KKK.

If you want to coexist with other cultures than you better include mine (gun culture)

[ZombieHorde]

96. The vast majority of gun enthusiasts, such as the NRA, supports gun control.

The debate is over how much gun control, not if gun control should exist. The NRA does not advertise itself as being pro-gun control, but they clearly support some regulation. The real debate is over degrees.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

103. Only some

Many of us have understood that private ownership of firearms is a progressive value and a civil right and abhor the classist and racist roots and modern day impacts of repressive gun laws.

[VoteProgressive]

23. I 100% agree. If you can get the bad guys to stop then all of us will! nt

[GreenStormCloud]

79. How do you propose that I defend myself against violent street crime?

I am sure that in your personal Utopia there is absolutely ZERO crime. For the rest of us, violent crime is a possibility.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[petronius]

10. I have never ever heard a person express a fear of "one punch death"

Who are you hanging out with? :shrug:

[WingDinger]

15. I just tried to copy about eight examples, but the software says

no long sompin or other without breaks.

Many right wingers will rather drop another for looking ominously at them. And they think all not like them are a threat. I grew up beating the shit out of bullies. Hundreds of them. Never needed a gun. I have herded multiple persons who tried to run me off the road on motorcycle. I have faced multiple persons that tried to cause a wreck. Every one of these incidents would be far worse, if I had a gun. And if I thought that all those bad guys were packing, I would drop them without warning. To not be shot.

Guns are no remedy to violence. All but the guy I had to fire, special ops, demolitions expert, rich. When he told the shrink that he wanted to do shooting spree at work, THEN, I packed.

[Hangingon]

21. Great story - fiction?

"I grew up beating the shit out of bullies. Hundreds of them. Never needed a gun. I have herded multiple persons who tried to run me off the road on motorcycle."

Too cool.

[WingDinger]

26. Nope, skinniest kid.

[rrneck]

24. Mall Ninja

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/health/2009/06/health-care-bankruptcy-on-rise-medical-debt-medical-bills-how-to-avoid-bankruptcy.html
Americans are increasingly at risk of financial ruin due to illness and medical expenses, according to a new study released yesterday by the American Journal of Medicine. The researchers found that illness or medical bills contributed to nearly two thirds, or 62 percent, of all bankruptcies in 2007—before the major impact of the housing collapse and current economic downturn. That’s a 50 percent increase over a similar survey in 2001 by the same researchers.

Most of the debtors are middle aged, middle class and have a college level education...

http://www.salon.com/technology/how_the_world_works/2009/06/05/medical_bankruptcy
Americans filed for bankruptcy at a rate of 6,020 per day in May, reports Credit Slip's Bob Lawless. That's the first time the 6,000-per-day mark has been broken since the passing of the 2005 bankruptcy law, which made it hard for Americans to seek relief from their debts.

In related bankruptcy news, the results of a study to be published in the August issue of the American Journal of Medicine show that "medical problems contributed to nearly two-thirds (62.1 percent) of all bankruptcies in 2007." More strikingly -- "between 2001 and 2007, the proportion of all bankruptcies attributable to medical problems rose by 49.6 percent."

Everybody isn't as badass as you want everyone to think you are. Grow the fuck up.

[WingDinger]

27. I am here to tell you that even in those supposed instances that guns are for,

They usually dont help. Guns are for home, and war.

[rrneck]

29. You are wrong.

So patently, blisteringly, obtusely wrong it almost isn't worth telling you how wrong you are.

When you figure out how to ride to the rescue of everyone in this country when they get assaulted to save them with your badass mall ninja skillz, then you may have a point. Until then you don't have shit to say regarding other people's solution to a problem you can't solve.

[WingDinger]

30. OK Gandhi, you are CCW, a punk is up in your business.

He is insulting and you think he is a bad guy. When do you shoot him? Be specific.

[rrneck]

31. SHTF scenarios are a mall ninja's stock and trade.

It means nothing beyond idle chitchat about attitude and tactics. Nice frame though.

[WingDinger]

33. It means nothing beyond idle chit chat, is why YOU dont deserve one.

[rrneck]

35. Since you can't help people when they need it

you don't get to decide what they deserve and what they don't.

[WingDinger]

38. I didnt DECIDE anything. I am only telling you My exp.

I have worked and driven truck in LA. On and on. they are just not that useful.


Oh, and my grandfather was killed by a gang, that was doing hazing training, and so decided to kill the first white person they encountered. Kicked, stabbed, shot. He wouldnt have been helped at all either.

[rrneck]

39. Well that makes sense.

Lets base public policy for over three hundred million people on the experiences of two individuals on two occasions. Brilliant.

Tragic as the loss of your grandfather was, it is unseemly to trot it out here to try to make a point.

[WingDinger]

42. I never said anything about how to do the policy.

Just said that guns are not USUALLY a real answer. And outfitting everyone that wants one is foolhardy. Many of the gun proponents cheer less to no fee, and less to no training to get one. They foam automatically when someone says they are not the answer.

[rrneck]

44. What's your point?

Guns are never a real answer. But sometimes they are the only one available. You can't obfuscate the attitude you have brought to this discussion.

"And outfitting everyone that wants one is foolhardy."

I didn't claim otherwise, nor am I aware of anyone on this board who has.

"Many of the gun proponents cheer less to no fee, and less to no training to get one. They foam automatically when someone says they are not the answer."

I'm not sure I understand this sentence, but I don't think I am a member of the group to which you refer. Boilerplate and hyperbole are rude.

[WingDinger]

46. Point is, even if MANY are mature and responsible, MMMMMMANY arent.

And MANY altercations and snits will turn out tragic, if guns, or even the reasonable expectation of facing one become commonplace out and about.

[cleanhippie]

49. Point is, CCW holders are LESS likely to be involved in ANY crime, much less a gun crime

than the general public.

[WingDinger]

54. That is history. You are talking about bringing in greenhorns.

[cleanhippie]

58. Huh?

[WingDinger]

60. OP says, Why not make it stupid simple to CCW?

[cleanhippie]

64. But it has been getting simpler every year.

More and more people are now able to get a CCW than ever before, in all but about 8 states. Turns out that the problems you are worried about simply just don't materialize.

[WingDinger]

70. Stay tuned, that will change. All those amassed weapons and ammo

with armeggedon social changes. Cant be good.

[cleanhippie]

76. What will change? The only change will be the rest of the states going shall-issue CCW too.

Or better yet, National Reciprocity. that would be best.

[slackmaster]

83. The same argument has been promulgated frequently since 1986 when CCW liberalization began

Maybe it will happen when the South finally rises again.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/south-postpones-rising-again-for-yet-another-year,377/

[PavePusher]

94. "Any day now", amIright?

Any... fucking... day.

YAWN.....

[rrneck]

56. Check my sig line dawg.

Public policy is used to guide a society in response to changes from without and within. It never works perfectly because it is designed by imperfect people. There were a lot of irresponsible people before the advent of firearms, and there will be many more when we are shooting at each other with particle beam weapons.

Everything about a firearm, including where it can be transported, can be used for good or ill. It ain't about guns, it's about people. Make better people in a more just society, and the guns will take care of themselves.

[rl6214]

92. Do you even understand what you are saying

I certainly don't.

[cleanhippie]

48. Well, it sounds like you are just an all-around, chuck norris-like badass.

Most of us are not so lucky.

[WingDinger]

55. Most of you were a lot MORE lucky. Not having faced nearly as many confrontations.

[cleanhippie]

57. Considering I don't have those chuck norris skills you do, yes, I am lucky.

Maybe you should open a dojo or something.

[WingDinger]

61. Why? I just go about my business. Confrontations are a non issue.

I deal with life as it happens.

Oh, I was industrially poisined, bad heart. Winded very easily. One would think now I would relent, and opt to carry. I still would rather face multiple persons unpacking. And have. Passed them off to cops.

[cleanhippie]

62. Non issue? I thought you beat up "hundreds" of bullies and "herded" those trying to run you off

the road.

I mean, if your bully-beating skills are THAT natural, and yet you have a bad heart and get winded easily, you certainly have a lot to share with those that don't have your natural ability.

[WingDinger]

69. My parents told me after so many, that they would beat me, if I didnt stand up.

I wouldnt suggest that for others.

[Katya Mullethov]

73. I have seen cat herding , but not car herding

Do ya think they cover this in the MSF curriculum ? I see where they make you blast your way over an enormous chunk of timber , but no car herding .

[Starboard Tack]

75. Congratulations! I think I might possibly finally understand your post

Phew! On second thought, maybe not. What does MSF mean?

[Katya Mullethov]

77. Quite simple really

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=MSF+curriculum

[Starboard Tack]

78. Cool! How did you do that?

[Atypical Liberal]

109. It's a web site.

Just go to the root web site and you can type in any search term and it will generate a URL for you.

[Starboard Tack]

99. You don't want to tell me how you did that Google thingy?

[Katya Mullethov]

102. That is even simpler

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=how+do+you+lmgtfy+%20%3F

[rl6214]

93. You sound like, no you couldn't be, are you

Jason Bourne?

[GreenStormCloud]

81. One day, if you are lucky, you too will be an old fart.

I am an old fart. I can't run anymore. Even though I took karate in my youth, that was over 40 years ago. Can't do any kicks any more. My car has disability tags. Street thugs look for easy targets. They usually won't bother a young healthy man but will look for somebody like me. So I have my guns on me.

[rl6214]

91. It sounds like YOU have an anger management problem

as well as a problem composing a rational thought.

YOU should not own a weapon.

[spin]

13. Where did you hear that?

Many of the people I know who carry a concealed firearm are ex-police and several others have a martial arts background. The people I know who carry aren't worried about fists but they want to have a chance against an attacker with a gun or a knife.

If you think that you have an excellent chance of defending yourself barehanded from an attacker who intends to shoot you and is ten to fifteen feet from you, then you are either a fool or an extremely good fighter.

[WingDinger]

17. First off, if they have a knife, I run. If I KNOW they have a gun, I demure.

Acting all wimpy and begging, until close enough to act.

[spin]

72. To be fair, most responsible people who carry concealed ...

would agree with your approach.

Using a firearm for self defense is a martial art. If you attend a good school in any martial art, you learn that you use your skills ONLY when necessary.

You learn to practice situational awareness which might be described as learning to "keep your radar up." You don't walk around with a cell phone glued to your ear. If you perceive a potentially dangerous situation, you avoid it.

But life can come at you fast. You might be surprised by a armed mugger. Chances are all he wants is your money and he carries a weapon to have an advantage.

An instructor I had told his class, "The eyes are the mirror of the soul. If you believe that the attacker is rational, just give him your wallet. You can always replace your money, your credit cards and your drivers license. You can't replace your heath or your life."

But there are times when you know that the attacker intends to harm you no matter how compliant you are. My instructor said those were the times when you use his training because you have little to lose.

There's nothing wrong with running. In fact it may be a good tactic to throw your wallet on the ground and then run. Of course, you have to be able to run. I have a bad hip and my doctor tells me that I am a candidate for a hip replacement. If I decide to run, I can only hope that I escape because my attacker is laughing too hard to chase or shoot me.

The smart criminal knows that to be close to a victim might lead to his being disarmed. Your tactic of acting scared and meek and allowing the attacker armed with a gun to approach closer will often work. You can then use the skills you have learned to disarm him. Otherwise you might try a judo roll out to get closer to your opponent where you can use your training.

My instructor was honored twice by with an award by the Black Belt Hall of Fame and is a 8th degree black belt in Judo and also holds a six degree black belt in Karate and a black belt in Jujitsu. He once said, "A man with a .45 auto is a 9th degree black belt."

In those situations where you face a gun wielding opponent or an experienced and skilled knife fighter who intends to harm or kill you, it is wise to be able to equalize the situation with your own weapon. Of course, you have to have the skill and ability to be able to use your firearm effectively. As I said, using a firearm for self defense is a martial art.

Of course, a handgun is far less lethal than a rifle or shotgun and there's no guarantee that even if you hit your attacker multiple times that you will emerge unharmed. Life is not always fair.

[VoteProgressive]

25. You realize that CCW holders have caused very little problems in 25 years? nt

[WingDinger]

28. ANd as has been said, most of them are ex or off duty cop, or highly trained.

[PavePusher]

32. Got a cite to evidence? n/t

[WingDinger]

34. Well, I was in Orange County, and only the rich/connected, or cops were issued one.

[PavePusher]

37. Ah, much clearer.

In much of the rest of the country, the numbers are very different.

[petronius]

74. Those rich/connected folks were probably the least-trained CCW holders of them all...

[GreenStormCloud]

88. CA is "may issue" which in practice is "no issue" for ordinary folks.

Texas is "shall issue" and we have over 400K citizens with CHLs. My wife has had to defend herself against a mugging twice. Both times the would-be attacker ran away, no shots fired. Guns do work for self defense.

[VoteProgressive]

50. You are flat wrong about that. And cops shoot the wrong person 300 times a year.....

And provide proof of CCW holders causing major issues.

[cleanhippie]

51. really? Where did you get that info from?

I think you made it up.

[oneshooter]

82. My Mom is neither, she is a 73yr old Great grandmother who has carried her 3" 38

for over 10 years. Only had to show it once, and she still has the knife her wanna-be attacker dropped.
How do you propose the elderly and infirm defend themselves? They are prime targets for attack.
Should they use, as other posters have suggested, their "natural fighting ability"?

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[FSogol]

6. Why not just issue a handgun to each newborn baby?

Problem solved. :shrug:

[spin]

14. You make your side of the argument ...

look foolish with such a comment. Surely you can do better.

[FSogol]

16. What is "my side" of the argument?

:shrug:

[spin]

22. Obviously you are not a responsible gun owner ...

we don't let children play with firearms.

If you are trying to be humorous, as they say don't quit your day job.

[cleanhippie]

52. +1000000

[rl6214]

90. stooopid post of the day

YUP

YUP

YUP

[shraby]

11. All beginning hunters in Michigan and Wisconsin have to

take a course in hunter safety. All my sons and grandson took it before they were allowed by the state to get a hunting license. When my sons were in it, the instructor laid down the rules and no infractions. If they mis-handled or goofed around once, they were out of the class. I remember cause my boys were astounded when a couple of others were kicked out..that sharpened up their attention a lot.
If new hunters have a program like this, what's wrong with all who want to carry guns having a similar program?

[spin]

20. I have no problem with your idea ...

as long as the cost of the course is reasonable. Hunter safety has also proved to be a very successful program in Florida. You mention this program as for all who want to carry guns. In most states you have to prove you have taken a firearms safety course to get a concealed carry permit.

I'm actually in favor of requiring such a course for all new gun buyers. In fact, I would love to see firearms safety become a mandatory high school class. In a nation with 300 million firearms, most children will eventually be exposed to a firearm at some time in their life. It would make sense to teach them some basic facts about firearm safety. That will never happen since so many people do not want to expose their children to firearms out of hatred of such weapons and fear that their children might develop an interest in shooting as a hobby. This is somewhat similar to those who don't want to let their children take a sex education course and refuse to take the time to teach them the basic facts.

[shraby]

85. I don't remember any cost for the course, but we did have to

take them up by Traverse City, about 25-30 miles away in order for them to take it. I think the courses were probably regional. It was about 30 years ago, and I don't know if it cost my son for his boy to take it here in Wisconsin. I do know the instructors are really strict with the kids on how they handle their rifles.

[rrneck]

36. Good idea. nt

[damntexdem]

41. I have a better plan: OUTLAW IT.

That is all.

[RSillsbee]

43. Damn straight

After al that worked so well w/ weed

[rrneck]

45. And booze. nt

[Glassunion]

104. And lima beans. nt

[X_Digger]

105. !!! -- green beans -- !!! :) n/t

[rrneck]

106. And porn. nt

[Glassunion]

107. Now that's just silly. nt

[rrneck]

108. Yep.

Serious porn sucks.

[cleanhippie]

53. Yeah, and while we are at it, lets OUTLAW free speech....

so we don't have to read nonsense like yours.

[VoteProgressive]

63. I understand your point. But please explain how you are going to stop....

the bad guys from using guns. I am serious. I would love a serious answer.

[GreenStormCloud]

95. Texas has been shall-issue for 16 years with no problems.

Why outlaw it?

[slackmaster]

101. We can't outlaw things without some kind of rational justification

Do you have one?

[rl6214]

84. Cost is just another form of discrimination

Classist.

[petronius]

100. Reminds me of that new SD abortion law (nt)