To buy a gun or not? Pro's and Con's...

[Taverner]

Pro:

- defense of home and family
- fun to shoot at range
- teach son and daughter how to shoot when old enough

Con:

- Wife does not like guns
- Small kids (5 and 8) could hurt themselves
- Gun might accidentally go off and hurt someone
- Burglar might find gun and use it on me or family

Am I missing anything?

[Rochester]

1. Better to have it and not need it

than to need it and not have it. Get the gun.

[slackmaster]

2. Buying a safe storage device would mitigate most of the negatives

BTW, guns don't "accidentally go off" without human error.

[Kennah]

4. +10

There are darned few accidents and lots of human fuck ups.

[Taverner]

9. How does one keep from fucking up?

Trigger locks, I know, are one way

Gun safe is another...

[Glassunion]

12. I would not reccomend a trigger lock

They can actually be a factor in an unintentional discharge.

The best way to keep from fucking up is take a class, learn your weapon and always follow the 4 rules.

In no particular order...
1. ALWAYS treat every firearm as if it is loaded.
2. NEVER point a firearm at anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire.
4. ALWAYS be aware of your target and what lies beyond it.

[Bonhomme Richard]

82. I would add...

.5 - Never, ever go near a gun when your mental capacities are compromised..ie, drinking, drugs, Glen beck, etc.

[slackmaster]

15. Trigger locks are inadequate. Get something that is bolted to a wall or floor.

To keep from fucking up, learn the basic rules of firearm safety and practice them.

I was taught at age 10 by my dad, a former military firearm instructor (among other things he did in the Navy). I've passed the knowledge on to more than 100 people. My body is so well trained that I avoid pointing things like broom handles at people.

[AtheistCrusader]

24. Gun safe, separate locked ammo storage as well.

Trigger lock is up to you, but these measures reduce the gun to somewhat of a lump of useless metal as well, for the home defense purpose.

[Kennah]

62. Here's my view

I'm quoting from my NRA Firearm Instructor training: A safety is a mechanical device that CAN fail.

Anyone who relies upon any mechanical contrivance is borrowing time. Real safety is a mindset.

NRA safety rule #1 reads: Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.

Always means every, single time.

I liked the NRA rules, for a long time, but I began to see that maybe it was not sufficiently worded.

When I got introduced to Coopers Rules, I was sold.

http://thefiringline.com/Misc/safetyrules.html

RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

There are no exceptions. Do not pretend that this is true. Some people and organizations take this rule and weaken it;e.g. "Treat all guns as if they were loaded." Unfortunately, the "as if" compromises the directness of the statement by implying that they are unloaded, but we will treat them as though they are loaded. No good! Safety rules must be worded forcefully so that they are never treated lightly or reduced to partial compliance.

All guns are always loaded - period!

This must be your mind-set. If someone hands you a firearm and says, "Don't worry, it's not loaded," you do not dare believe him. You need not be impolite, but check it yourself. Remember, there are no accidents, only negligent acts. Check it. Do not let yourself fall prey to a situation where you might feel compelled to squeal, "I didn't know it was loaded!"

RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY

RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET

RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

[lawodevolution]

76. Do not chamber a round unless you are going to shoot it.

No macho shit, don't chamber. You can keep a loaded mag in the gun without chambering a round. But always behave as if there is a chambered round. This helps reduce the chance of an accident if you want to handle the gun. It may be hard to keep your hands off the new gun but try to only handle it enough to get used to how the slide and safety work without ammo. Also understand that if your slide is back (gun open) and you place a loaded magazine in the gun, then close the slide you have chambered a round and it's ready to shoot (some new shooters don't fully grasp this at first and risk an accident if they chamber a round without realizing it. When you first pick up a gun always clear it by pulling the slide or bolt back and remove the magazine. Only return the magazine to the gun after you push the slide back closed.

Go take a gun handling and shooting class if you want to learn how to hold the gun when you shoot so you don't develop bad habits early.

[krispos42]

97. Know thy gun like you know the curves of your wife.

First, ask the guy you're buying the gun from how it works. Have him or her show you with the gun you just purchased.

Then read the manual from end to end in the comfort of your own home, free from distractions. Some guns, for example, can't be dry-fired unless the magazine is in place due to a magazine-disconnect. With some guns, dry-firing the gun with the magazine will actually damage the mechanism! FIND OUT WHAT YOUR GUN CAN AND CANNOT DO.

Then with an empty gun (and make sure it's fucking empty!!!!!) in a room by yourself, dry fire it a lot. With snap-caps, preferably. Practice loading and unloading the magazine, if so equipped. Practice using the cylinder latch and ejector rod, if so equipped. Practice single-action and/or double-action trigger pulls. Practice using the safety, if so equipped. Practice using the slide release, if so equipped. Practice working the slide, if so equipped. Practice de-cocking the gun, if possible, either with the built-in decocker or (very very carefully) with your thumb.

Try all the controls in different combinations. Understand exactly what should happen when the controls (trigger, slide release, safety, cylinder latch) are manipulated.

Then methodically work through different combinations. Tell yourself "the gun SHOULD fire if I do this and it was loaded", then do this. Tell yourself "the gun should NOT fire if I do that and it was loaded", then do that.

If you're wrong in your prediction, figure out WHY you were wrong, and try again. If the fire pin moves when you're not expecting it, go back and figure out what just happened. If the firing pin does not move when you're expecting it, go back and figure out what just happened.

Taking it apart and cleaning/oiling it will be useful in getting a feel for it as well. Things should work smoothly when clean and very lightly oiled.


Look, as long as the gun is empty, you can generally play with it all day. Put on a Bruce Willis movie (there always seems to be one on cable) and practice shooting the bad guys. Or Bruce Willis, if you prefer. Have some responsible fun!

But don't get into bad habits with an empty gun, because those WILL translate into bad habits with a loaded gun.


When you're comfortable with the mechanics of the gun, head off to the range. Take a spot next to somebody who's also shooting. Assuming the guy isn't covered with Nazi tattoos, tell him you're shooting the gun for the first time and ask him if he can just watch you to keep you from making a goof. The odds are very good he'll be happy to help. If he helps, later on ask him if he wants to try out your gun.





Caveat... if your gun is a rimfire, you generally can't dry-fire them because it damages the firing pin.

[AndyTiedye]

36. Google "Accidental Discharge". It Seems to Happen Rather a Lot

see post #38 http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=395161&mesg_id=395211

[slackmaster]

56. According to the CDC there were 613 accidental shooting deaths in the USA in 2007

A sub-set (I suspect a very small one compared to misidentified targets or hunting accidents) were the result of accidental discharges.

Modern firearms in good working condition don't often fire when they are dropped and hit the ground or a floor. People sometimes make the mistake of trying to catch a gun that they have dropped.

One of the many valuable lessons my dad taught me was "Never try to catch a dropped knife or gun!"

[Kennah]

3. Everyone's situation is different

Temperament, determination, awareness, preparedness also play a big role in defense firearms.

[Dawson Leery]

5. Consider a trigger lock and a safe.

[DissedByBush]

69. No trigger locks

They make the gun useless for defense.

[cleanhippie]

6. Maybe I can help you see some of your "Cons" in a different light.

- Wife does not like guns

Perhaps she doesn't like them because she know much about them. A little education and training can easily overcome that.

- Small kids (5 and 8) could hurt themselves

Only if they are unsupervised and/or your weapons are left unsecured.


- Gun might accidentally go off and hurt someone

Guns do not "accidentally" fire. Ever. One must pull the trigger to fire it.


Burglar might find gun and use it on me or family

The chances of that happening are infinitesimal compared to the protection it can provide.

[Ship of Fools]

7. I always thought

I'd rather be dead than live in a society in which I felt compelled to own a gun. Sadly, I don't think that way anymore, so now I own one. I don't know how to use the damned thing, but I own one. Now I've decided that I'd rather be dead if I can't scare someone away by declaring that I have one. My point? They'll have to pry the gun from my cold dead hands.

[cleanhippie]

8. Back under the bridge with you!

What utter nonsense.

[Ship of Fools]

10. Works for me.

[PavePusher]

16. If you are serious that you own a gun, but don't know how to use it....

please, please, please.... get some training immediately.

[Ship of Fools]

18. I'll let you sweat it out -- as for the

clean-"hippie," what part of the 60s did you not understand, or, as I suspect, were you not even born yet?

[Hoyt]

22. I'd like to see the answer to that one too.

[cleanhippie]

66. I have your answer right here.

The first part is most applicable for your application.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=395161&mesg_id=395282

Not sure what my screen name has to do with the topic, Hoyt. Why are you always so eager to deflect to conversation away from your own ignorance and shortcomings?

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[spin]

20. Take a class or ask someone competent to take you to a range ...

to teach you how to shoot your firearm. Or call a range and ask if they can give you some instruction. Many times at the range where I used to practice, someone would come in with a firearm and ask if anyone could teach him/her how to use it.

I was always glad to help as were a lot of other experienced shooters. Most shooters like to introduce new people to the sport.

[WingDinger]

11. Get it, put it away for when the Rethugs get out all that ammo.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

13. Small bedside safe and basic safety practices/knowlege would render 3 of your "cons" moot points.

Alot of companies make affordable small pistol bedside safes.

[Submariner]

14. Google "Accidental Shooting"

http://news.google.com/news/search?aq=f&pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&q=accidental+shooting

Another DU'er posted this link several weeks ago suggesting the reader check the link daily/weekly. I have checked it once or twice a week, and I am amazed at the number of people who accidentally shoot themselves or some family member, or friend. Frequently would be the operative word.

[PavePusher]

17. Statistically speaking, it's rather infrequent.

And almost always the result of stupidity (evolution works...), inattention/loss of awareness, or lack of training (not quite the same as stupidity). Two of these can be easily cured. The other... meh.

[Hoyt]

23. Yea, we've even seen news reports of people getting shot in training for their carry permit.

The dang trainers ain't even qualified.

[AtheistCrusader]

25. I've seen three instances of that, ever.

There are thousands of training facilities all across the country. VERY few injuries at these sites.

[Hoyt]

39. I doubt you try very hard to keep up with the incidences. Might shake your pro-gun confidence.

[AtheistCrusader]

41. You're free to cite some.

[Starboard Tack]

91. Didn't you just cite 3

Or is 3 statistically insignificant, like 30,000 seems to be.

[cleanhippie]

46. Then show some different examples, Hoyt. Or are you afraid of totally unmasking your ignorance?

[Hoyt]

51. Look up "accidental shootings." Or just refer to the poster a few up, he made it simple for you.

I imagine you guys skip over such report, not wanting to shake your beliefs. On this forum, you guys are quick to brand everything "negligence," rather than an accident. Then, you go on to say there are lots of fools . . . . . . Yep there are lots of fools carrying, and too many of them think they are totally prepared and trained to use one of their many guns in public (from years of shooting paper targets and posing in front of the mirror). Worse, you guys like to encourage others to carry.

[AtheistCrusader]

53. Look at those goalposts GO.

Awesome.

Try again, accidental shootings at concealed carry training courses.

Again, I know of 3.

[friendly_iconoclast]

60. For some reason, your interlocutor does not 'do' citations or links....

...thus rendering his posts one long argument from authority.

[cleanhippie]

64. As you were told, Hoyt, there have been THREE. You stated is was many more, yet have FAILED

to provide a SINGLE other example, and are now trying to change the subject.

Well I say fuck that, not this time, boy o.


Cite some goddamned proof of your ridiculous assertion or be branded the LIAR many already think you are.

[AtheistCrusader]

71. In fairness, I haven't specified which three incidents.

But on the other hand, I'm not the one asserting there are a lot more than 3. Citing the ones I know of would not preclude there being MORE.

[lawodevolution]

78. Accidents are a fact of life and part of being a well adjusted adult is being able to

Accept it and move on. I see accidents involving children falling of playground equipment but I'm not so immature as to want to ban playgrounds, I see car accidents all the time, yet I'm not such a poon as to want to ban cars. Gun accidents are no excuse to over regulate guns.

[Euromutt]

81. In words of Sergeant Nicholas Angel, "'accident' implies that no one's to blame"

(reference: Hot Fuzz http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0425112/)

In the film, Angel explains that police guidelines state that the term "collision" must be used, rather than "accident," for the reason mentioned above. He's talking about motor vehicles, not firearms, but the same principle applies because in practice, almost all traffic accidents are the result of driver error, just like most unintentional discharges are the result of wielder/shooter error.

The insistence among the gun enthusiast community on referring to unintentional discharges as "negligent" rather than "accidental" is an effort to promote firearm safety by emphasizing that firearm accidents are preventable; they almost never "just happen" randomly, they happen because somebody violated the one or more of Four Rules. The insistence on calling them "negligent discharges" is a warning against complacency, not an excuse for it.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

26. And there are reports of even cops and federal law enforcement shooting themselves...

I guess law enforcement shouldn't carry guns either.

[Taverner]

33. I guess I'm worried about dropping it

And having it go off

I do drop things on a regular basis

[Glassunion]

34. Buy a modern firearm

The technology exists today that newer firearms are drop-safe.

But if you do drop it, let it go. Trying to catch a dropping firearm is a good way to accidentally(negligent) discharge the firearm.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

35. Most firearms are drop-proof - granted the trigger doesn't catch some protrusion.

In any event, load it up, put it in the safe and practice with it 1-2 times per year.

[AndyTiedye]

37. It Seems to Happen Rather a Lot

google "accidental discharge gun fell"

Officer Jesse Paderez was accidentally shot and killed at 0645 hours when his Sig P-220, .45 caliber service weapon, fell to the ground and discharged, striking him in the head.

He had gone to the police station to pickup a patrol car before going to a training course on radar usage and was carrying his service weapon and other items in his arms. As he walked across the parking lot, his weapon, still in its holster, fell to the ground and discharged when the hammer struck the pavement.

http://www.odmp.org/officer/16325-officer-jesse-kenneth-paderez

Police said a woman was accidentally shot and killed at the Allied Veterans Cyber Center after a gun fell from a man's belt and discharged.

http://www.news4jax.com/news/21341869/detail.html

plenty more hits…

[PavePusher]

38. What, exactly, do you mean by "rather a lot"?

Going by the available evidence vs. the number of guns and gun owners, it seems to mean "statistically negligible".

[AtheistCrusader]

42. Calling bullshit on the Sig 220.

"The SIG P220 series incorporates a hammer-drop lever to the rear of the trigger on the left side, which first appeared on the Sauer 38H before World War II. After chambering a round, the hammer will be cocked, so for safe carriage the hammer drop is actuated with the thumb, dropping the hammer in a safe manner. The P220 also introduced a firing pin block safety which is activated by the trigger mechanism - similar to the one used in the Colt M1911's Series 80 pistols"


It was cocked and unlocked, AND he fumbled for it, pulling the trigger. For the firing pin to have a clear path to move forward, the trigger MUST be pulled.

[BrookBrew]

43. RTFM Baby. The SIG220 can be decoked 1 of 2 ways..

with the decocking lever which leaves the hammer block in PLACE. This is the right way..

The other way is by thumbing the hammer down. The manual clearly states not to do this. Why you ask?

In that model of sig when you PULL THE TRIGGER and ride the hammer down it releases the firing pin block. (newer models compensate for stupidity with a spring reset).

So once you ride the hammer down the gun can be fired with a strike to the hammer, like dropping it..

OPERATOR ERROR is not an accident.

[AtheistCrusader]

58. Thank you for finding that.

I thought it was more a fumble and he pulled the trigger, because one way or another the trigger must be pulled to clear the firing pin block.
That sequence of events makes more sense.


Thumbing down the hammer is STUPID AS HELL. Your only 'safety' to prevent the firearm from discharging normally is your thumb's grip upon the hammer. One slip and *bang*.

Fortunately this officer's negligence only killed himself and not some bystander.

[spin]

88. That's why I hate any firearm with a decocker ...

I prefer to drop the hammer the old fashioned way. Of course I point the muzzle in a safe direction. I have never been surprised by a loud noise when I did this. Many people seem afraid to grab the hammer on a cocked weapon, pull the trigger and ease the hammer down. that's why the decocker was invented.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

19. When not in use, a gun should be locked up or secured.

This alone would eliminate almost all "in home" accidents.

Guns should not be toyed or tinkered with. Think of it this way: if you often played with a hammer or chisel around your house... would you be surprised when you eventually chip or dent something unintentionally? Guns are not "toys". They are tools.

[DonP]

21. Accidental or Negligent?

The majority of the posts on that site involved negligent discharge/shootings, "He admitted he pulled the trigger but he did not mean to shoot the teenager" is not an accident. It's a negligent asshole, who very possibly was screwing around with the firearm.

The same goes for police and others that shoot themselves in the leg while "cleaning their gun". Not an accident, carelessness. Leaving a loaded gun where a child can access it is negligence, not an accident.

Accidents by definition can't be prevented, only minimized. Negligence is personal responsibility. Follow the 4 rules outlined above religiously and you'll never have an ND.

[AndyTiedye]

50. How About Merely Clumsy?

Being fumblefingered around a firearm could have very painful consequences:

HAMILTON — A 20-year-old man is recovering today, May 5, after apparently accidentally shooting himself in the groin early this morning.

Shortly after 12:30 a.m.. police and emergency medical crew were called to the Jeffrey Tyler Disney residence in the 800 block of Heaton Ave. on a report of a person suffering from a gunshot wound, according to the Hamilton Police Department.

Police said an initial investigation found the shooting to the result of an accidental discharge of the weapon by Disney. Sgt. Craig Bucheit said detectives are continuing to investigate the shooting, which “appears” to be accidental.

Disney said this morning he is recovering at the Atrium Medical Center and would be talking to detectives this afternoon.

http://www.oxfordpress.com/news/oxford-news/man-recovering-from-gunshot-to-groin-687468.html

[DonP]

57. "Clumsy" = Negligent

One more time - Keep your boogerhook off the bang switch until ready to fire.

To even be sold in several states, California may be the most obvious, most guns for more than the past decade must pass a drop test from 3 to 5 feet onto concrete and not go off. Anytime you hear the phrase "it just went off" it always means they had their finger on the trigger without even realizing it. There have been numerous videos showing exactly that. "It just went off" and the video shows the finger on the trigger.

It's not an "accident" when somebody grabs at a dropped gun and catches it by the trigger and it goes bang like it's supposed to do, it's negligence. That's why the firearms community stopped referring to "accidental discharges" years ago and changed the standard reference to negligent discharge.

It's not a play on words or a semantics game, it's a far more accurate way to refer to what somebody did to themselves.

FWIW, many police also commit suicide with their service weapon and it gets written off as a "gun cleaning accident" or "He dropped it and it went off" for insurance and benefits reasons. Happened in my own family less than 5 years ago.

[Straw Man]

30. Frequently?

http://news.google.com/news/search?aq=f&pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&q=accidental+shooting

Another DU'er posted this link several weeks ago suggesting the reader check the link daily/weekly. I have checked it once or twice a week, and I am amazed at the number of people who accidentally shoot themselves or some family member, or friend. Frequently would be the operative word.

You got about 500 hits for a random search that includes the entire English-speaking world. Four of the hits on the first page are from Australia, and one is from England. One of the incidents involves a cop, one involves a court judgment in an incident that occurred in 2008, and several are multiple reportings of a single event. Do you know how many firearms owners there are in the US, UK, New Zealand, and Australia combined? I don't, but before you claim that this happens "frequently," find that number and match it against the number of unique incidents your search turned up.

Next, Google "drowning death" and tell us all why we should stay out of the water.

[GreenStormCloud]

49. We are a nation of about 310 million people.

With that many people even rare events happen a lot.

[spin]

27. You can meet a lot of interesting people at the range ...

Unlike the typical stereotype that those who dislike firearms portray, shooters are a very diverse group and very very few look like this:



I've met shooters who were ministers, doctors, engineers, scientists, factory workers, bankers, people who owned their own business, nurses, teachers, cops and ex-cops. A very friendly group of people who are usually very helpful if you have any questions about shooting.

A warning. Many are Republican. Democrats get razzed a lot.

[rrneck]

52. That picture reminds me of home.

And why I'll never go back there.

[Straw Man]

28. Your call....

Guns do not "accidentally go off." Mechanical failures are extremely rare. Furthermore, they only occur when the gun is being handled, and the effects can be mitigated by safe handling. (See "The Four Rules.") Guns don't go off when they're just lying there.

Safe storage in a good safe will eliminate two of your other cons: burglars and kids. I don't recommend trigger locks: they are not at all reliable. If you want an extra layer of protection, I recommend a cable lock that prevents the action from being closed. That is a much more reliable method of incapacitating a firearm.

If you do not think you can safely store and handle a firearm, don't get one. It's totally up to you. Education and training can help you make that decision.

[Taverner]

31. I guess my fear of accidentally going off is my fear that I would drop it`

And have it go off

I do have a butterfingers problem (and not just the candy bar!)

[BrookBrew]

44. Modern Firearms can be smashed into inoperability

before they fire from a drop. Both the Glock Service Pistol and SIG meet and exceed the demands for this test.

They do rely on the operator to NOT PULL THE TRIGGER unless they intend to fire the weapon.

I suspect a large portion of "i dropped it" and it went bang involves very old firearms or lies.

[Kennah]

63. If you carry a gun, you must be willing to drop it

If it's an older semiautomatic, which does not have a drop safety, stick it in the safe and get something new. If there is no drop safety, then it's theoretically possible to drop it, have it land on the hammer, and slam fire. There are also probably some very inexpensive semiautomatics still made that don't have a drop safety.

Rebounding hammers are the approximate equivalent, and they have been on revolvers since at least the very early part of the 20th Century. I have a Smith .38 Special M&P made in about 1917, and it has a rebounding hammer.

[AndyTiedye]

68. Trying to grab something you fumbled is Instinctive

It is not possible to entirely suppress this response.

[Kennah]

74. True, but one can practice dropping an unloaded gun on a pillow to condition oneself

[AtheistCrusader]

75. I catch things by inserting my foot between the object and the floor.

Not sure if this is a normal reaction for others. Softens the impact.

Unlikely my shoe is going to get inside the trigger guard.

[petronius]

80. I do that too - it looks a bit silly, but it's saved more than one glass from the hard

kitchen floor...

[rl6214]

84. You keep posting the same crap

and it keeps getting shown to you that guns do not go off when dropped.

Why?

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[county worker]

32. Guns are fun to shoot at a range. Some like to hunt.

I use to have 20 acres in the mountains and made a 25 yd range there. No one around to hear or be bothered. I got pretty good shooting at targets.

I haven't needed to shoot at anything else since I left Viet Nam. I don't kill animals or people nor do I want to live in the paranoia state that compels me to buy a gun for protection. Life just isn't that dangerous for most people.

Don't buy a gun out of fear.

[Hoyt]

40. Total agreement. Life really isn't that dangerous for most.

[cleanhippie]

47. On that we can all agree. But that in no way means that we should suspend a civil right.

You see, "need" isn't a requirement to exercise a civil right, but you know that.

[catenary]

70. If that is the operative criterion, we should skip insurance, smoke detectors,

child car seats, locks on doors, ad nauseum. You are more than welcome to eschew all those and guns too but you have no right to tell anyone else he or she should or must simply because of your own irrational prejudices. I've been reading your posts, and I'm damned if I can figure out what your agenda actually -is-...would you care to be specific?

[Hoyt]

79. Sure I have a right to detest guns in public. It's not good for society.

[catenary]

85. That is nonresponsive, I asked about your agenda.

In any case, your opinion is worth exactly as much as that of someone who says "I have a right to detest black people in public."

[AtheistCrusader]

72. If only we could predict in advance for which people life will soon become dangerous.

Frankly, carrying a firearm is heavy and uncomfortable. Particularly in the summer months where less clothing makes it harder to conceal.

I would love to have advance notice. I'd have a rifle, and a bunch of friends with rifles at the ready.

[RSillsbee]

48. If nothing else the gun will never be cheaper than it is right now NT

[AndyTiedye]

54. If Your Gun is Stolen and then Used In a Crime

Do the police come to you? What sort of gyrations do you have to go through to prove that you are no longer in possession of the weapon?

[burrfoot]

55. No gyrations, really

If your gun is stolen, you need to report that ASAP. That way if it does turn up, they'll know at exactly what point it was no longer under your control.

[BrookBrew]

59. No. Just like if your car is stolen than a person kills a family with while DWI

not your problem. Be responsible, dont leave your keys in your car, lock a firearm when not in use.

[DonP]

61. Considering what a decent gun costs in sheer $$$ you want to report it!

Even moderately priced guns are several hundred $ minimum. A decent 1911 in .45 is closing in on, or passing a grand, easy.

The police will want to know the manufacturer and model as well as the serial number. They'll want to know where you purchased it, if you can remember. It's always a good idea to keep a record of all firearms you own in a couple of places, not just in the safe or closet with the guns.

Recovering a stolen gun may be a long shot but if you don't report it, you'll never get it back.

[Euromutt]

67. Here's a handy fillable PDF form

http://www.dol.wa.gov/forms/p3312-8.pdf

It's a "Personal Firearms Record" from the Dept. of Justice; you can use that, or use it (like I do) as a basis for a spreadsheet kept on Google Docs (on that basis that even if my computer is stolen, my inventory of firearms will still be available online).

And yeah, in the event a firearm of yours were stolen, you want to report not only for your peace of mind, but also because your homeowner's insurance should cover the loss, but you're going to want to be able to submit a police report.

[ileus]

65. buy a 22 bolt action....get used to it, then progress to a SD firearm.

a 22 will be fun for the whole family, everyone can learn the rules of owning/handling a firearm. You can remove the bolt completely when it's not in use and lock it away where no one can use it.

After you get the wife and kids comfortable with being around that, then you can buy a small handgun and a handgun safe for SD and maybe take your CCP just to learn basic rules of handling a pistol.


I take the kids and wife out shooting our 22's all the time.

[DissedByBush]

73. Point by point:

Pro:

Defense - honestly, the best thing is a pump or semi-auto shotgun
Fun - definitely fun, but the habit can get expensive
Teach - definitely a good thing

Con:

Wife: usually don't like out of ignorance, often like it after they try
Kids: get a quick-open safe (touch combo or fingerprint), factor this mandatory item into your cost
Accident: rarer than getting hit by lightning if you follow standard safety rules
Burglar: very rare they get your gun, most run at the sight, or the sound of a pump shotgun being racked

Shotgun pros:

-Easy to get shells that won't go through walls
-Don't need a direct hit, you have a leeway with a wide pattern, helpful when you're panicking
-If you're not into killing intruders, use birdshot or specialty less-than-lethal shell for the first round, 00 buckshot for the second if that didn't teach them a lesson
-Skeet shooting is excellent for hand-eye coordination and much more fun than punching holes in paper.
-If the kids happen to get ahold of the shotgun, accidents are much less likely (little kids just can't rack them).
-Shotguns also aren't as heavily regulated as pistols

[benEzra]

77. Just to clarify for any non-gunnies reading...

-Easy to get shells that won't go through walls
-Don't need a direct hit, you have a leeway with a wide pattern, helpful when you're panicking
-If you're not into killing intruders, use birdshot or specialty less-than-lethal shell for the first round, 00 buckshot for the second if that didn't teach them a lesson

Buckshot *will* go through multiple walls (penetrates like 9mm, and more than most .223). Birdshot may be stopped in a single wall, but isn't very good at incapacitation, so it's a tradeoff.

Patterns of NFA length barrels are going to be one to a few inches across at inside-the-home distances, so you still do have to aim. I've seen 1" per yard out of an unchoked barrel as a rule of thumb, but it depends on the individual shotgun. A spreader choke can widen the pattern, but may make it harder to make a tight shot. Someone would do well to pattern their particular gun and load at realistic distances to see what the pattern looks like.

There are some patterns from an 18" barreled defensive shotgun at in-home distances in this thread: http://www.realpolice.net/forums/firearms-4/27706-shotgun-spread-patterns-pics.html

[DissedByBush]

86. I've heard suggestions for going progressively worse

Birdshot for the first shell, smaller buckshot like #4 for the second, 00 buckshot for the next, rifled slug for the last.

[rrneck]

87. I think I'd disagree there actually.

Right up until the moment you have to pull the trigger any number of alternatives may present themselves, but when you have to shoot you need to give him everything you've got. Nothing can be negotiated after you shoot.

[benEzra]

89. I think #4 buckshot is not a bad all-around choice, personally.

The problem with birdshot (as I see it) is that since you can't legally shoot until you are in grave danger, putting birdshot up front might not be the best choice from an effectiveness standpoint. I wouldn't want to be shot with birdshot, certainly, but birdshot is designed to incapacitate very small, relatively fragile creatures (e.g., birds), not aggressive/angry apex predators. I can think of circumstances in which making the first shot a mandatory warning shot could be dangerous, and once you get a few yards out, birdshot doesn't penetrate a whole lot.

[Euromutt]

94. I have to disagree on a number of those points

If you're not into killing intruders, use birdshot or specialty less-than-lethal shell for the first round, 00 buckshot for the second if that didn't teach them a lesson

Bad idea. Use of a firearm constitutes use of lethal force, and if you aren't sufficiently in fear of permanent injury or death to be willing to possibly kill your opponent, you have no business shooting at all.

If the kids happen to get ahold of the shotgun, accidents are much less likely (little kids just can't rack them).

The main thing preventing a child from working the slide on a pump-action is not knowing you have to depress the action locking release lever. Problem is, you can also unlock the action by pulling the trigger. It's kind to easy to forget that because pulling the trigger on an empty chamber is discouraged with shotguns, but it's mechanically possible, and I'm not so sure the slide itself is all that hard to operate. The one on my Benelli SuperNova certainly isn't.

Moreover, unlike handguns, most shotguns aren't "drop-safe"; most models don't have firing pin block safeties, due to which they can discharge if jarred while a round is chambered.

A lot of the "reduced recoil" 00-buck that's being made these days contains hardened pellets to aid penetration; the downside to that is that as a result, the pellets are also more likely to penetrate building materials.

And lastly, I'd stick with Massad Ayoob's advice that if you're going to own one gun for home defense, it should be a handgun. Shotguns are excellent for certain purposes, but handguns are more versatile, more difficult to wrest away, and you operate the phone with one hand while keeping the weapon covering a doorway or an intruder. And a handgun will fit in a quick-access lock box.

[Atypical Liberal]

83. My take.

Owning a firearm is a serious responsibility. If you are not certain that you are up to the responsibility, you should not own a firearm.

Firearms most certainly can be useful for defense, they are fun to shoot at the range, and teaching children to shoot is an age-honored tradition.

If your partner does not "like guns", then this is a serious issue that needs to be addressed. A marriage is a partnership and as such both parties should be comfortable with any major purchase decision. It is important to understand why your wife does not like guns and try to address those issues.

I have a 5-year-old and a 2.5-year-old. If you have children in the house, in my opinion firearms should be locked up. Yes, this is a problem if you need to get to a firearm in a hurry, but most people are not going to be faced with violent crime anyway. If you truly do live in a bad neighborhood where you think you will need rapid access to a firearm there are quick-access safes made by companies like GunVault ( http://www.gunvault.com/ ) that will fit the bill.

Children are naturally curious and will find unsecured firearms. Proper training goes a long way to mitigating problems for children, but young children (under about 10 years old) cannot be counted on to responsibly handle firearms, trained or not.

Guns almost never go off by accident. They almost always go off unintentionally due to negligence. I've been handling and using firearms for 30 years and I've never had a firearm go off when I did not intend it to, and I have picked up or been handed firearms that I thought were unloaded and it turned out they were loaded.

The key to never having a negligent discharge is to always assume the firearm is loaded. Always, every time, forever. This means never pointing the firearm at anything you don't wish to destroy, ever. It means always keeping the firearm pointed in a safe direction in case it went off, realizing that "safe direction" may change depending on where you happen to be. It means never putting your finger on the trigger until you actually intend to fire the firearm. It means knowing your target before you shoot, and knowing what lies beyond your target when you miss.

Burglars won't be able to find firearms that are locked up. Being overpowered and having a firearm taken away from you is a possibility, but one that can often be mitigated. If your firearms are locked up and you have time to unlock them and bring them into action, then you probably have time to take up a defensive position while you call the police and wait for them to arrive. House-clearing is risky even for professionals. I've done it in my own home once, and the only reason I do it is because my children's bedrooms are on the opposite side of the house from ours.

If you buy a firearm, it is essential that you get training. I am fortunate that my father, like his before him, trained me to use firearms from about 8 years old. I was rigorously trained about how to safely handle firearms, including a back-hand across the face when I came up to him cleaning a .22 rifle on his lap and thought it would be cool to look down the barrel. If you did not have that benefit, then you absolutely need to go to a training class to learn how to safely operate your firearm and understand exactly how it works. Moreover, you need to practice with it so that you are comfortable with it. You can't just take a class and think you are good to go. You'll want to put at least 1000 rounds through your firearm before you will feel confident with it. And if you think that sounds like a lot, it's about 5 trips to the shooting range. It's nothing.

[Taverner]

90. "The key to never having a negligent discharge is to always assume the firearm is loaded." Aye!

That pretty much sums it up

[Starboard Tack]

92. Do you really feel the need for a gun?

Have you experienced something to prompt this quandary? If you feel you and your family are in danger, then maybe you should, but be darned careful and don't do it unless you're prepared to use it.
Otherwise, I'd listen to the wife. Sounds like a sensible woman. Very few women like guns.

[friendly_iconoclast]

93. "Very few women like guns." That's odd, I've heard 15 to 25% of gun buyers are women.

[Starboard Tack]

95. Doesn't mean they like them.

And 15 to 25% is still a few compared to men. Most women who purchase guns do so because of men encouraging them to.

[kudzu22]

96. You can eliminate all of the cons

with proper security procedures and training. Get a quick-access gun safe to prevent kids/criminals from unauthorized use, while still allowing you to use for protection. Guns don't accidentally "go off" if you keep your finger off the trigger. Proper training and practice will alleviate that fear.

Can't help you with the wife issue. Maybe if you demonstrate that the other cons have been eliminated, she'll come around.