Do the CCW Skeptics here realize there is NO GOING BACK at this point? CCW is here to stay!

[VoteProgressive]

Let's say stopping CCW was the best solution to stopping violence in this country and would make America safer. There is no evidence it would, and plenty of evidence it would increase crime and violence. But lets assume for a moment it would reduce it.......

There is no political way to stop CCW or take it away from people at this point and not lose a LOT of voters. People want their guns and the laws reflect it. More and more states are allowing CCW and even expanding it and making CCW easier. More states are allowing others states CCW holders to carry in their states (reciprocity). I have not seen one law implemented in the last two years to reduce the rights of CCW holders.

Many states held open votes for the citizens to decide CCW and they all allowed it. The people want it! And there is no evidence it causes ANY ISSUES!

I will bet in 5 years all states, including Illinois, Wisconsin, California and D.C will have CCW laws. That is how fast this is moving.

Why would the Democrats and Obama keep fighting this battle when it only costs us votes? This is not a battle worth fighting. It is not like Health Care or Gay rights. CCW hurts NO ONE and there is much evidence it helps lower the crime rate.

We are losing a lot of the votes of voters who would otherwise be Democrats by fighting this.

[tibbiit]

1. what is ccw?

im trying to figure it out but cant.
tib

[Andy823]

3. I think

It's concealed carry weapons but I could be wrong!

[TheWraith]

5. It's an acronym for "Carrying a Concealed Weapon."

"CCW" is usually used as a catch-all term for concealed weapons licenses, though it's known by different names in different places. For instance in New York, it's a "pistol permit." In Texas it's a "Concealed Handgun License." Etcetera.

In some states it only applies to firearms, although in other states it also extends to things like knives in excess of 3" or fixed blade knives.

[TheWraith]

2. Why would Dems fight it when most Democrats support it?

Polling shows that 80% of Democrats support concealed carry laws, which is only a few points lower than the public as a whole.

It's a staggering minority of the public that makes noise about this.

[rrneck]

12. The other 20%

are bullies. :evilgrin:

[russ1943]

53. 80% of Dems support CCW? ..................From where?

Where do your figures ‘80% of Democrats support concealed carry laws” come from? Is it 80% of Democrats who post in the GUNS forum on DU?

A variety of state and national public opinion surveys have shown that most Americans are opposed to citizens carrying concealed weapons in public places.

The Gallup June 14, 2005 poll, for example, includes a political affiliation segment that doesn’t agree with the figures in your your post.
“There are slight differences by political affiliation. Fifty-one percent of Democrats say that only government safety officials should carry concealed firearms, compared with 41% of Republicans. Republicans (31%) are more likely than Democrats (18%) to say that any private citizen should be able to carry a concealed gun.”
http://www.gallup.com/poll/16822/public-wary-about-broad-concealed-firearm-privileges.aspx

Some other sources;
Conclusions—The public believes that increased gun carrying by others reduces
rather than increases their safety. Overwhelmingly, the public believes that in
many venues gun carrying should be prohibited.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1730790/pdf/v007p00282.pdf

The people of Wisconsin, including gun owners, do not want the carrying of concealed
weapons to be legalized.
• In Wisconsin, only 27% of those surveyed were in favor of citizens being allowed to
carry concealed weapons. Furthermore, only 17% believed that a CCW law would
reduce crime.37 37 Badger Poll, #11, Release #2, University of Wisconsin Survey Center, November 3, 2003.
http://www.waveedfund.org/images/CCW_Business_Report.pdf


A USA Today/CNN/Gallop poll (2005) found that approximately two-thirds of all Americans would feel less safe in a public place that allowed concealed weapons.
http://www.ipgv.org/FMAmericansopposedtoCCW.html

A slight majority of Americans – 52% – oppose laws that authorize the carrying of concealed weapons.63 63. CNN/Opinion Research Corp. Poll, Most Americans Say the Constitution Guarantees the Right to Own a Gun, Latest CNN/Opinion Research Corporation Poll Shows, supra note 22.http://www.lcav.org/statistics-polling/Polling.asp#f63

[TheWraith]

60. Zogby poll from 2009.

Zogby/O'Leary asked voters:

"Currently, 39 states have laws that allow residents to carry firearms to protect themselves, only if they pass a background check and pay a fee to cover administrative costs. Most of those states also require applicants to have firearms safety training. Do you support or oppose this law?"

An overwhelming majority of Americans (83 percent) support concealed-carry laws, while only 11 percent oppose them. A majority of Independent voters (86 percent), Democrats (80 percent), young voters age 18-29 (83 percent), Hispanic voters (80 percent), and those who voted for President Obama (80 percent) support the right to carry a firearm.

[russ1943]

70. One Poll.

For years, Zogby has been regularly exalted as "the nation's most accurate pollster," in the words of FOX's Bill O'Reilly -- a distinction Zogby owes to his pinpoint prediction of the 1996 presidential outcome..........................
Rush Limbaugh bestowed on Zogby the "my favorite pollster" mantle, a kind of calling card for use among political conservatives.............................
More precisely, Zogby is a pollster who works with a lot of Republicans, and in ways that are not always disclosed. Most journalists were probably unaware that some of Zogby's so-called American Values Polls were a joint venture with an organization called Associated Television News, which has a very strong Republican pedigree. Associated Television News is run by Bradley O'Leary, a longtime Republican consultant known for his legendary fundraising abilities and for doing direct mail for the National Rifle Association (NRA). Zogby told the Prospect that O'Leary's role in the surveys wasn't always made apparent but, "Anyone who asked, to the best of my knowledge, was told." However, when columnist Arianna Huffington asked Zogby about the funder of an American Values Poll in April of 2000, according to her column, he responded, "I can't say who it is, but he publishes a newsletter in which he prints the poll's results." Presumably that newsletter would be the O'Leary Report........................................
http://prospect.org/cs/articles?article=john_zogbys_creative_polls


The very pro-gun Eugene Volokh and his readers discussed the Poll on his blog years ago when it first came out.
Volokh posting; "But while I support shall-issue laws, I'm pretty skeptical about the findings, because of the text of the question".
http://volokh.com/posts/1249426862.shtml#626485

http://www.pollster.com/blogs/the_loopy_zogby_polls.php?nr=1

My point isn’t that there is no support for CCW but there is far less than one pollster appeared to have demonstrated in a single poll. To conclude that “most Democrats support it”, is far from an accurate statement.

[movonne]

4. well you are right....it could go back the same way...when killing gets

so out of hand and the public can change their minds...things that swing too far to one side always goes the other way in time...

[TheWraith]

6. Except per capita, someone with a concealed pistol is less likely to commit a crime than the police.

There is absolutely no evidence that the "blood running in the streets" nonsense ever has or ever will be true. Quite the opposite--research shows people with concealed weapons licenses typically have a much lower criminal conviction rate than the general public.

[safeinOhio]

19. It is all in how you word your argument.

Show me any figures that show that people with concealed weapons licenses have any lower crime rate than those that do not have a license and have the same background record as those that do. Someone could use your logic to prove that those that do not own a gun have a much lower incident of gun accidents than those that do. Therefore, your risk of accidental handgun injury would be much lower if there were fewer handguns and handgun owners. Ideologues on different sides use interesting facts. Here is another great example for you. Those that do not own or carry guns have a much lower record of gun crime than those that do, including those with CCWs. Duh.

[petronius]

41. A lower crime rate than the police? The comparison to the general public is

well-documented, I believe, but do you have a source for the CCW/police comparison?

[TheWraith]

61. Afraid not, but the basic data went like this.

Police officers committed violent crimes at a rate one third lower than the public in general.

CCW holders committed violent crimes at a rate two thirds lower than the public in general.

Presumably, the difference in levels are due to two major points. One, that a relatively small subset of the general public accounts for a large number of crimes, bringing the public level up. Two, that the same effect happens with police, where a small subset of bad cops account for a larger than average number of crimes, most probably assaults. Thus you could probably reasonably assume that a "law abiding" police officer was more law abiding than a "law abiding" civilian, but you'd have to get into per capita numbers and percentages to get a real feel for that statistically.

I have a vague recollection that it was from FBI/DOJ compilations of crime statistics, but I don't have a link.

[VoteProgressive]

8. Murder rates are down since it was implemented in Florida in 1983......

so what evidence do you have that the CCW program has increased killing?

[rfranklin]

14. Murder rates in NYC are down since 1995 with no CCW...

Your argument is invalid.

[cleanhippie]

17. rfranklin, no argument was made, it was merely an observation.

Did you have an argument you would like to make? Are you disputing the fact that was posted?

[VoteProgressive]

24. But murders in CCW states are down also, so how does CCW cause problems? nt

[safeinOhio]

20. Way down in California too

and they still have "issue at will".

[Kennah]

73. 1987, but your point is still correct

10 Right To Carry states at the start of 1987
40 Right To Carry states at the start of 2011

About 1 million carriers in 1987
About 4-5 million carriers in 2011

[cleanhippie]

15. Do you really think that could happen?

I mean, gun ownership is at its HIGHEST level EVER, Open and Concealed carry is now allowed in nearly ALL States, and gun crime is at its lowest in 40 YEARS and still continues to decline.

Do you really think that legal gun owners, who are, as a group, MORE unlikely to be involved in ANY crime than the general public, are just going to start acting irresponsibly? On what do you vase that?

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[VoteProgressive]

11. Once again to you.....provide ANY EVIDENCE CCW causes more crime or shootings. We are all waiting! n

[cleanhippie]

18. You will continue to wait, too. They can NEVER provide what does not exist.

Doesn't stop them from spouting it though.

[safeinOhio]

21. Can you you show proof of causation?

Is the murder rate up in all states that do not have "shall issue"? Correlation does not equal causation, never has. Except with people like Glenn Beck and his chalk board.

[cleanhippie]

23. I never made the claim that there WAS causation.

Why would I try to prove something I never claimed?

[safeinOhio]

28. Really?

"I mean, gun ownership is at its HIGHEST level EVER, Open and Concealed carry is now allowed in nearly ALL States, and gun crime is at its lowest in 40 YEARS and still continues to decline."

I didn't hear you mention that gun laws made no difference in crime figures, which the facts show if you look at crime rates by states with liberal and restrictive gun laws. If you are NOT claiming it, why are you pointing it out with useless comments that have little to do with it.

[cleanhippie]

30. Friend, that is a factual statement. It is an observation of the facts as they are, nothing more.

You seem to think I am making a claim as to some causation. I am not.

I state these facts to counter the idea proposed that MORE guns = MORE crime, when in fact, that simply is not true.

[safeinOhio]

29. delete for double post

[VoteProgressive]

25. But if CCW is bad, wouldn't Florida stats show it by now? nt

[rrneck]

9. Ain't it the truth.

All the shit we have to worry about and Democrats are willing to form a circular firing squad over this. Hyper-partisanship due to disembodied ideology is a wonderful path to the political wilderness.

People have guns.

People will carry them around.

People who feel they need a gun are pretty serious about it and vote accordingly.

[safeinOhio]

22. That also includes urban areas that are

the stronghold of all Democratic national elections. So, ignore them and the FAUX news watchers will still vote for idiots.

[jpak]

10. Horseshit - the GOP/NRA have over-reached and their stupid guns laws will be repealed

by sensible Dems

Teabaggers suck

yup

[VoteProgressive]

13. Jpak, I like your posts, but you need to provide some evidence that CCW.....

causes any issue or increase in crime.

Just "feelings" or "emotions" does not answer the question.

[cleanhippie]

16. She can't. That evidence just does not exist. Doesn't stop her from making absurd posts though.

[rl6214]

32. Boy the shtick is strong in you today, you got all the groups

GOP/NRA/TEABAGGERS OVERREACHED

Your post is horseshit

YUP

YUP

YUP

[jpak]

34. They all suck

yup

yup

yup

[AtheistCrusader]

75. DRUGS! It's whats for dinner.

How many Registered Democrats support rollback?

[safeinOhio]

26. Most dangerous states: Crime rankings for 2010

http://www.walletpop.com/2010/04/05/most-dangerous-states-crime-rankings-for-2010/

Rate Rankings (out of 50 states)
(1 = Worst, 50 = Best)

No. 1: NEVADA
Assault: 8
Burglary: 12
Murder: 13
Motor Vehicle Theft: 1
Rape: 8
Robbery: 1

No. 2: NEW MEXICO
Assault: 5
Burglary: 3
Murder: 6
Motor Vehicle Theft: 7
Rape: 2
Robbery: 23

No. 3: LOUISIANA
Assault: 4
Burglary: 9
Murder: 1
Motor Vehicle Theft: 14
Rape: 33
Robbery: 18

No. 4: SOUTH CAROLINA
Assault: 1
Burglary: 8
Murder: 7
Motor Vehicle Theft: 9
Rape: 13
Robbery: 16

No. 5: TENNESSEE
Assault: 2
Burglary: 5
Murder: 8
Motor Vehicle Theft: 15
Rape: 19
Robbery: 8


No. 6: FLORIDA
Assault: 6
Burglary: 7
Murder: 12
Motor Vehicle Theft: 13
Rape: 23
Robbery: 4

No. 7: DELAWARE
Assault: 7
Burglary: 18
Murder: 10
Motor Vehicle Theft: 19
Rape: 9
Robbery: 3

No. 8: MARYLAND
Assault: 10
Burglary: 23
Murder: 2
Motor Vehicle Theft: 4
Rape: 45
Robbery: 2

No. 9: ARIZONA
Assault: 21
Burglary: 15
Murder: 13
Motor Vehicle Theft: 2
Rape: 39
Robbery: 15

No. 10: ARKANSAS
Assault: 11
Burglary: 2
Murder: 18
Motor Vehicle Theft: 32
Rape: 4
Robbery: 2


No. 11: ALABAMA
Assault: 22
Burglary: 4
Murder: 5
Motor Vehicle Theft: 21
Rape: 16
Robbery: 11

No. 12: GEORGIA
Assault: 20
Burglary: 6
Murder: 8
Motor Vehicle Theft: 6
Rape: 42
Robbery: 7

No. 13: OKLAHOMA
Assault: 9
Burglary: 10
Murder: 16
Motor Vehicle Theft: 18
Rape: 10
Robbery: 26

No. 14: ALASKA
Assault: 3
Burglary: 39
Murder: 28
Motor Vehicle Theft: 29
Rape: 1
Robbery: 30

No. 15: CALIFORNIA
Assault: 18
Burglary: 25
Murder: 16
Motor Vehicle Theft: 3
Rape: 41
Robbery: 5



Show the correlation between liberal gun laws and crime? Looks a lot like it makes little or no difference at all. Yet, the ideologues here are claiming it does and then bitch about "facts". Take Alaska vs California. Even with the huge difference in diverse population, Alaska with a very liberal gun law has almost double the murder rate as California with very restrictive gun laws. Alaska with 28 and California with 16. Explain that one? You wanted facts.

[cleanhippie]

27. I'm confused, safeinohio, who is claiming what?

You stated: "Yet, the ideologues here are claiming it does and then bitch about "facts". "


What exactly, are you claiming the "ideologues here are claiming"? Can you point to an example of what you are referring to please?

[safeinOhio]

31. see post 15

[cleanhippie]

33. What did I claim in post #15? I made a statement of fact, not a claim.

Unless you are disputing the fact that gun ownership is at its highest level ever, that nearly all states allow some form of carry, and that crime rates are at the lowest point in 40 years and continue to decline.

These data are available on the FBI/DOJ website. I guess I fail to see what you are questioning here.

[safeinOhio]

36. If CCW laws have any thing to do with crime rate,

You pointed out a lower crime rate and more liberal CCW laws, why is there nothing to prove it has anything to do with it.

http://community.allhiphop.com/showthread.php?6524-The-murder-rate-list-is-out-where-does-your-state-rank

The murder rate list is out. where does your state rank?
January 27, 2010. Here's the list:




The murder rate list is out. where does your state rank?
January 27, 2010. Here's the list:

Pennsylvania Rank: 1 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 36.36%
Missouri Rank: 2 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 34.82%
Indiana Rank: 3 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 30.89%
Nevada Rank: 4 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 29.83%
Wisconsin Rank: 4 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 29.83%
Louisiana Rank: 6 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 29.4%
Michigan Rank: 7 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 29.38%
Oklahoma Rank: 8 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 29.97%
California Rank: 9 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 28.19%
Maryland Rank: 10 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 27.02%
Tennessee Rank: 11 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 24.71%
Arkansas Rank: 12 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 24.64%
Arizona Rank: 13 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 24.51%
Kansas Rank: 14 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 22.57%
West Virginia Rank: 15 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 22.03%
Alabama Rank: 16 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 21.21%
Kentucky Rank: 17 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 20.92%
Alaska Rank: 18 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 20.46%
New Jersey Rank: 19 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 19.99%
Ohio Rank: 20 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 19.61%
New Mexico Rank: 21 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 19.46%
Texas Rank: 22 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 18.61%
Massachusetts Rank: 23 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 18.43%
Iowa Rank: 24 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 18.02%
Illinois Rank: 25 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 17.81%
Minnesota Rank: 26 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 17.55%
South Carolina Rank: 27 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 16.19%
Georgia Rank: 28 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 15.93%
Virginia Rank: 29 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 15.03%
North Carolina Rank: 30 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 15.02%
New York Rank: 31 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 14.79%
Delaware Rank: 32 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 13.96%
Oregon Rank: 33 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 13.63%
Washington Rank: 34 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 13.09%
Connecticut Rank: 35 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 12.58%
South Dakota Rank: 36 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 11.43%
Colorado Rank: 37 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 11.21%
Mississippi Rank: 38 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 10.82%
Utah Rank: 39 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 9.19%
Maine Rank: 40 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 7.66%
New Hampshire Rank: 41 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 6.47%
Nebraska Rank: 42 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 6.37%
Rhode Island Rank: 43 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 6.03%
Hawaii Rank: 44 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 2.67%
Idaho Rank: 45 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 0%
Montana Rank: 45 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 0%
North Dakota Rank: 45 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 0%
Vermont Rank: 45 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 0%
Wyoming Rank: 45 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 0%
Florida NOT RANKED

[cleanhippie]

37. I NEVER CLAIMED THEY DID!!! What is so difficult to understand about that?

I never claimed CCW laws have ANYTHING to do with the crime rate, ever. I pointed out 3 facts, nothing more. If ANYTHING, these facts DEBUNK the argument that CCW laws have anything to do with the crime rate.


YOU, OTOH, seem to be implying that there IS some kind of connection. Is that what you are saying?

[safeinOhio]

42. I agree with your statement

"facts DEBUNK the argument that CCW laws have anything to do with the crime rate.". So, you are then saying that the only difference is that CCW laws make gun enthusiast feel better and have nothing to do with crime or safety? If you are saying that, I don't agree, so stop saying it.

[cleanhippie]

43. SafeinOhio, I am not saying ANYTHING! YOU are the one saying it, NOT me! WTF?

So, you are then saying that the only difference is that CCW laws make gun enthusiast feel better and have nothing to do with crime or safety?

Uh, friend, YOU are the only one saying that.


I see that you are starting to be a bit intellectually dishonest here, with your continued attempts to portray me as stating things I have not stated. Why?

[safeinOhio]

49. Relax, and don't bring up crime rates and CCW

laws at the same time and no one will get confused.

[cleanhippie]

51. SafeinOhio, YOU are the only one bringing up crime rates and CCW laws. What. The. Fuck.

I guess you are simply playing a game here, as it is YOU who are bringing these things up, even posting links to stats the prove nothing other than your google ability still works.


With each post you are becoming more and more dishonest. What gives?

[X_Digger]

74. Some random internet poster is your source?

How about ranking by the FBI..


District of Columbia.....24.0
Puerto Rico..............22.5
Louisiana................11.8
New Mexico................8.7
Maryland..................7.7
Tennessee.................7.3
Mississippi...............6.4
Michigan..................6.3
Oklahoma..................6.2
Illinois..................6.0


http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/data/table_04.html

[VoteProgressive]

35. I think you actually helped the CCW case......

What SafeInOhio is hiding is the lowest crime rates.......

http://os.cqpress.com/rankings/2010/Crime_State_Rankings_2010.pdf

LOL....The safest in order is

#1 is New Hampshire a Shall Issue state!
#2 is Vermont, a UNRESTRICTED state which means no license required at all, just CCW all you want
#3 is North Dakota, a Shall Issue state
#4 is Maine, a Shall Issue state
#5 is Idaho, a Shall Issue state
and ALL of the top 10 except Wisconsin is a full CCW state.

So if you want to be in the top ten I would suggest you move to a CCW state!!

Thanks SafeInOhio!

[safeinOhio]

39. Look at the top 20 states by murder rates.

Don't Penn., Missouri, Indiana and Nevada have very liberal CCW laws and they have the highest homicide rates? You are welcome in advance for pointing that out.


The murder rate list is out. where does your state rank?
January 27, 2010. Here's the list:

Pennsylvania Rank: 1 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 36.36%
Missouri Rank: 2 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 34.82%
Indiana Rank: 3 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 30.89%
Nevada Rank: 4 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 29.83%
Wisconsin Rank: 4 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 29.83%
Louisiana Rank: 6 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 29.4%
Michigan Rank: 7 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 29.38%
Oklahoma Rank: 8 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 29.97%
California Rank: 9 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 28.19%
Maryland Rank: 10 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 27.02%
Tennessee Rank: 11 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 24.71%
Arkansas Rank: 12 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 24.64%
Arizona Rank: 13 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 24.51%
Kansas Rank: 14 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 22.57%
West Virginia Rank: 15 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 22.03%
Alabama Rank: 16 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 21.21%
Kentucky Rank: 17 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 20.92%
Alaska Rank: 18 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 20.46%
New Jersey Rank: 19 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 19.99%
Ohio Rank: 20 Murder Rate (per 100,000): 19.61%

[cleanhippie]

40. So it now seems that YOU are making a case for a correlation between CCW and crime.

Is that what you are saying?

[safeinOhio]

44. Yes, I think there is a correlation between CCW laws and crime,

but not the way you think. I think in high density population areas with more crime, there is a greater chance of the population voting for people that will pass stricter gun laws. Most anti gun laws are purposed by urban politicians. The lowest pop. density states have the most liberal gun laws. High density states have the most restrictive. If your neighbor lives 5 miles down the road, you won't mind him firing off a few rounds. If he lives in the apartment below you, you will.

[cleanhippie]

46. Hmmm, you had me until the end.

The first part seems factual and objective. Then you post this: If your neighbor lives 5 miles down the road, you won't mind him firing off a few rounds. If he lives in the apartment below you, you will.


I am not sure what that statement has to do with CCW laws, since CCW laws deal with carrying a concealed weapon, NOT randomly firing rounds. What does that last statement have to do with the topic at hand?

[safeinOhio]

52. Just spend some time with liberal

urban dwellers and you'll find that they do not want more guns on the streets. Either legal or illegal. They just want the shooting to stop. I've lived in both places and I can respect both views. In the country we knew the shooting would start just before sun up on Nov 15 and end at dark. In the city we knew the shooting would start every night after dark.

[cleanhippie]

55. Again, I ask, what does any of that have to do with CCW laws?

The shooting, as you put it, is coming from criminals with guns, not legal CCW holders, so I fail to see your point, especially as it relates to the connection you are trying to make to CCW laws.


Why do you keep making outlandish and irrelevant statements then refuse to discuss them? More dishonesty?

[VoteProgressive]

47. You realize these numbers mean nothing? New Jersey has NO CCW and...

and is 19th. Alaska is carry any way you want and is 18th. Please explain that.

Also, many states are safer than New Jersey that HAVE CCW. Please explain it.

[safeinOhio]

54. It is pretty apparent.

Different areas need different laws.

[VoteProgressive]

56. Safe, I am surprised at you.......

You know none of these numbers mean anything.

You need to show me and this forum real stats that PROVE CCW holders cause more crime! Or CCW holders are a unlawful bunch.

[cleanhippie]

57. I'm not sure he even knows what he wants to say. He can't seem to stick to one idea.

Seems to just be throwing shit on the wall to see what sticks. He fails to realize that he has it all over his hands....

[safeinOhio]

62. Point out where I said any such thing.

I said CCW holders are no more or less likely to commit a crime than any other citizen with the same criminal and mental records. But you knew that. Now you can show me where CCW holders are any more law abiding than any one else that could, but chose not to, obtain a CCW.

[cleanhippie]

63. Wow! Isn't that just RIPE! YOU accusing someone ELSE of saying things you didn't say.

You have tried repeatedly, and unsuccessfully, to tie me and my comments to YOUR assertion that there is a link between CCW laws and crime rates. At every turn, you deflect from your original assertion and obfuscate. Now look at what you are doing. Just how dishonest can you be? With every post, you sink deeper and deeper in the mud.

Disgusting, hypocritical, dishonest.

yup

yup

yup

You gonna answer those questions or just let your dishonesty wave in the wind for all to see?

[VoteProgressive]

64. Yes, I can prove CCW holders commit crimes at a lower rate than the .....

general population. If I give you that proof will you make a post admitting CCW carriers are a benefit to society?

[cleanhippie]

65. I think you skeered him off. Those pesky facts are quite the nuisance ya know.

Start getting factual or ask them to provide facts and they are nowhere to bee found....

[VoteProgressive]

69. So true! nt

[safeinOhio]

71. Nice straw man.

I said that CCW holders are just as likely as any other person that could pass the same background check to not break any law. If compared to the population as a whole, that include all felons and insane, yes they have a better record. Just as any other group that could pass a CCW background check but do not hold a license.

CCW has nothing to do with being a noncriminal. Being a law abiding citizen in the first place does.

I'll bet you that 98 year old women have a lower crime rate than CCW holders, so what.

But then, you'd argue with me if you were shot with a brand new bullet.

:crazy:

[Old Codger]

48. Hmmm

What weapons were used in these murders? Says nothing at all about gun deaths!

[cleanhippie]

50. +1.

I am confused about what point he is trying to make at all.

[Old Codger]

59. That would be me

THE gist seems to be that he hates guns and will use any argument no matter how tenuous to tell everyone about it and as far as I can see would ban them all... People kill people with assorted weapons not necessarily guns, they stab them, run them down with vehicles,strangle,bludgeon,drown, hang beat to death. Guns are not necessary to kill someone and guns are not always the weapon of choice.

[GreenStormCloud]

66. Yet, he claims to be pro-RKBA.

All of his posts that I can recall have been pro gun control.

[lawodevolution]

38. You forgot to include Vermont, Maine, new Hampshire and many other states with

Very relaxed gun laws that have the lowest crime rates in the country.

[safeinOhio]

45. Gee whizz, can't you think of any other demographics

in those states that might also correlate to less crime? Come on, think hard.

[lawodevolution]

58. You tried to make an anti gun argument by comparing Alaska to California

You noted that Alaska has relaxed gun laws and California has strict gun laws and less crime than Alaska and that was your argument for gun control. I simply pointed out that the states with the lowest crime rates also have the most relaxed gun control.

"40. Utah 2.2
42. South Dakota 2.1
43. North Dakota 1.9
44. Vermont 1.9
44. Oregon 1.9
46. Rhode Island 1.8
47. Hawaii 1.7
48. Maine 1.6
49. Montana 1.5
50. Iowa 1.2
51. New Hampshire 1.1"

Lots of the most gun friendly states are in the 10 lowest murder list.

[GreenStormCloud]

67. Have you taken a look at El Paso, TX?

That is a major U.S. city that has more guns than people and they had only three (3) murders for all of 2010?

[Old Codger]

68. Oregon

Open carry is legal, you can drive around with a loaded weapon in plain sight in your car, school carry is legal if you have a CCW... also open carry is legal in a lot of places in Ca....nothing he has posted has been in any way related to concealed carry, just about crime with an emphasis on murder.

Hard to determine his point in any of it.

[X_Digger]

72. That CQ bullshit again?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=348704#348750

First, they leave out DC- which tops the murder, motor vehicle theft, violent crime, aggravated assault, and robbery categories by rate. Yeah, I know it's not a state, but it's part of the US.

Second, I can't make their math add up.

If you simply add the rates per 100,000 population together to get a 'score'- (data on rates from http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/data/table_05.html )- the list is quite different. And I agree with the above posters who note that not weighting different categories of crime makes this list pretty useless.

Heck, if you just add up the rankings, with lower being worse, it still doesn't come out the same.

eta: found their methodology, but it's still shaky, at best- http://os.cqpress.com/rankings/2010/Crime_State_Rankings_2010_Methodology.pdf

Because they're calculating the reported rate - national rate to determine a score for each category of crime, then adding them together to get a total score..

A state with perfectly average amount of crime would have a score of 0, making it the bottom of the list. ("safest")

I still haven't figured out what they do with states whose rates of crimes are lower than the average (whether they carry over the negative percentage.)