Violence Policy Center's Misleading Concealed Carry Murder Numbers....

[VoteProgressive]

If you go to their website they are promoting the 288 murders caused by CCW license holders.

What is not shown is the details.

These 288 murders occurred over a 4 year period. So it is an average of 72 per year.

Each year there is an average of 7,500 people killed by handguns. So this means CCW license holders commit less than 1% of these murders. And this also assumes NONE of these 288 murders would have happened if CCW laws were not in place, which we all know is not true.

I other words, that means NON-CCW holders commit 99% of the handgun murders in the USA every year. The non CCW holders sound like the dangerous ones to me.

There are six million CCW license holders in the USA. Not counting the states that allow CCW with no permit. So I would say 288 murders out of six million CCW holders means they are a pretty law abiding bunch.

[cleanhippie]

1. Your post, and your FACTS, will continue to fall on deaf ears.

The prohibitionists care not for facts, just emotions.

[VoteProgressive]

2. Worth a try! :-)

[jpak]

5. I read it - CCW = murder

yup

[Common Sense Party]

6. The schtick stinks.

Nobody even takes you seriously when you spout nonsense like that.

You've become your own self-parody.

[cleanhippie]

8. More nonsense from Ignored?

I had to turn that shit off.

[Common Sense Party]

10. yup.

The usual. You're not missing much.

The Schtickster is now claiming that CCW = murder.

:boring:

[jpak]

14. 288 murders due to CCW

yup

[Common Sense Party]

23. "due to CCW" How idiotic can you be?

Oh yes. You're the one who stated that anyone who owns a gun for anything but hunting isn't sane.

You're full of schtick.

[GreenStormCloud]

33. Nope. That number includes suicides.

It also includes mureders that have nothing to do with CCW such as beatings and poisoning. In fact, out of all those 288 only 5 could have been facilitated by a CCW. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ct-oped-0331-chapman-20110331,0,4417269.column

[VoteProgressive]

18. You are losing credibility with me. If it matters. nt

[PavePusher]

25. Then your cognitive skills need sharpening....

and your accusation needs to be retracted.

[aikoaiko]

28. Oh for fuck's sake...

Have you no shame?

[tortoise1956]

29. Actually, I don't think shame enters into the equation with that poster...

the same for logic, deductive reasoning, and any concept of how to carry on a rational discussion.

[GreenStormCloud]

34. That means you have trouble reading.

[spin]

20. Other people often lurk here ...

and facts and statistics often change peoples minds.

Emotions not so much.

[DonP]

3. IIRC, they also included suicides in that number as well

That assumes these individuals would not have died except for the firearm.

No surprise that VPC numbers are kind of fuzzy and slightly cooked to deliver a talking point.

[VoteProgressive]

4. Correct. And people just blindly believe them. nt

[GreenStormCloud]

35. "Slightly cooked"? Try overcooked until burned. N/T

[Vinnie From Indy]

7. "which we all know is not true"

Really? How do we know that?

Why would you not link to the website that has the data you dispute? It would make it easier for readers to understand and debate the issue.

Cheers!

[cleanhippie]

9. Enjoy.

http://www.vpc.org/


Get your waders on before you visit, the bullshit is knee-deep over there.


For real numbers and stats, visit the DOJ/FBI and CDC websites. Or peruse the the other threads in this forum. Its all been posted too many times to count.

[VoteProgressive]

12. I assumed most people knew how to google! Sorry, my bad! nt

[PavePusher]

26. Just a friendly tip (and I occasionaly violate it myself)....

one of the things that sets us apart from those who would restrict our Civil Right is that we generally cite our sources.

It definitely gives your argument greater weight and credibility, though it's sometimes also fun to wait for a few idiotic responses before tipping your trump card.

I know we've disagreed (strenuously) on a few points, but I am very glad you are here and adding to the discussion! :toast:

[Tuesday Afternoon]

37. +1

:toast:

[Euromutt]

38. We know that because we've been over it a dozen times in this forum

The VPC's "study" and "fact sheets" can be found here: http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm

Here's something I wrote last May (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=315588&mesg_id=315721), arguing that the VPC's thesis was incoherent:

If the VPC's point were to prove only that some CCW killers are responsible for homicides, be it through malice (murder) or negligence (manslaughter), then most of the incidents listed would be valid examples.

However, the VPC has not been content to leave it at that. From the VPC's press release when "CCW Killers" was launched http://www.vpc.org/press/0911ccw.htm :

Kristen Rand, legislative director for the Violence Policy Center, states, "This new web site makes clear that contrary to the false promises of the gun lobby the simple and deadly fact is that state concealed handgun systems are arming cop-killers, mass shooters, and other murderers."

The thesis, then, is not merely that some CCW permit holders commit homicides, but that these killings were made possible by their being issued CCW permits; and, by extension, that these killings would have been prevented by not issuing CCW permits. That contention sets the bar significantly higher for including incidents in the list. For example, it is hard to see how Tony Villegas (Florida) would have been prevented from strangling Melissa Britt to death by not having a CCW permit. One must also discard all homicides that occurred in locations where state or local law did not require a CCW permit to possess a concealed firearm (e.g. in the shooter's home); all homicides that occurred in locations where the shooter's permit did not allow him to carry a firearm (e.g. Aubrey BERRY, whose Georgia Firearm License did not allow him to carry in California, where the killing occurred); and all homicides committed with non-concealable firearms (i.e. rifles and shotguns).

The problem is that Rand and Sugarmann want to have it both ways: they want to argue that CCW permits facilitate homicides that, absent those permits, would have been preventable, but they don't want to discard any instances of CCW permit holders being involved in a homicide.

VoteProgressive stated that the report "assumes NONE of these 288 murders would have happened if CCW laws were not in place, which we all know is not true," which is the assertion you challenged, Vinnie. Well, for starters, the report includes the aforementioned Tony VILLEGAS, who strangled his victim to death; he could have done that just as readily without a CCW permit, obviously.

Then there's the example of Richard TAUCH, who shot his ex-girlfriend and her new boyfriend. Problem is, Tauch didn't have a CCW permit; he had a California security guard firearm permit, of which the California Bureau of Security and Investigative Services (BSIS) Security Guard Fact Sheet (http://www.bsis.ca.gov/forms_pubs/guard_fact.shtml) states:

You may not carry a gun on duty without having been issued a firearm permit by the Bureau. Also, a firearm permit issued by the Bureau does not authorize you to carry a concealed weapon. You may not carry a concealed weapon on duty without a Concealed Weapons Permit (CCW) issued by local authorities, nor carry a caliber handgun not listed on your firearm permit.

Emphases in original.

The report also contains a number of shootings in permit holder's home (where you don't need a CCW permit), suicides, and at least one instance of the permit holder's kid finding a gun in a closet at home and shooting himself. Those incidents could have all readily have occurred without a CCW permit.

[Big Al Mac]

11. How many of those "murders"

were ruled justified shoots?
That is, self defense or in the defense of others.

I don't trust the VPC to tell me the correct time.

[rl6214]

13. But,but,but, one is one too many...

:sarcasm:

[chibajoe]

15. Here are the real numbers:

86 – Actual Murder Victims (Including murder-suicides)

Victims where the shooter was convicted of a lesser charge:
13 – Accidental deaths (involuntary manslaughter)
6 – Acted in self-defense (excessive force or discharging a firearm in residence)
3 – Voluntary manslaughter

75 – Suicides

16 – Acquitted charges, dropped charges, not filed, and a shootout where both people involved were CCW holders and both died

89 – Pending

From this web page

[gravity556]

16. Wait! You mean that

the group formerly known as "Handgun Control Inc" is a biased source? A, dare I say it, special interest group pushing an agenda? My god, man, this is madness! I suppose that now you're going to inform me that it's not actually possible to shoot down a satellite with a .50 caliber rifle, aren't you?

[slackmaster]

21. Go back just a little farther and they were called the "Coalition to Ban Handguns"

The same people, but with a less honest name.

[Euromutt]

39. No, it's the *Brady Campaign* that used to be Handgun Control Inc. and the Coalition to Ban Handguns

The VPC has gone by that name since its inception in 1988. For all practical purposes, it's a two-man show (Josh Sugarmann and Kirsten Rand) and I don't think it will outlast those two.

[Common Sense Party]

24. jpak says that there were "288 murders due to CCW" He can't possibly be WRONG,

can he?

He also says anyone who owns a gun for any reason other than hunting is not sane.

[tortoise1956]

30. Of course it's possible

you just have to lead 'em a little more..

[VoteProgressive]

17. Thank you for that. nt

[Bold Lib]

19. Thanks for the number break down. The original number was small but now we see

just how VERY small it really is.

[GreenStormCloud]

22. A little more info on those murders.

If you look at the murders you will find that they include non-gun murders and gun-murders that happened at home. In those types of murders having a CCW did not facilitate the crime and not having one would not have been another law to break. The only ones that should count are gun-murders that happened while carrying under the cover of a CCW.

[PavePusher]

27. I still wonder how a gun murder outside the home is "facilitated" by a CCW....

do to how often they are done without one.

I bet we don't get an answer explaining that one....

[GreenStormCloud]

36. It means that a person is carrying who may not have been.

Sometimes a CCW commits a premeditated murder with his gun and away from home. Since it was premeditated murder we may assume that he would have carried the gun even if he had not had a CCW, so the CCW is not at issue.

Sometimes a CCWer is carrying because he can and gets into an argument that escalates to gunfire and the CCWer is wrong. That would be a murder that is facilitated by having a CCW. So far there have been five of those. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ct-oped-0331-chapman-20110331,0,4417269.column

Of course VPC makes no distinctions between types of murders, or accidents, or self-defense, or suicide, or breaking it down to an annual rate. To them its all CCW Killers.

[Kennah]

31. The punishment for murder ranges from a long prison sentence to the death penalty ...

... so I continue to remain baffled how restrictive concealed carry laws would prevent murders committed by people with a license to carry.

[kudzu22]

32. These numbers should go down as more states adopt permitless carry.

That should make the Bradys feel better.