Philadelphia Police Threaten To Kill Open Carrier

[Kennah]

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2011/03/25/philadelphia-police-threaten-to-kill-open-carrier/

Philadelphia's "finest".

[rl6214]

1. Heard the entire tape yesterday

Just a few observations off the top of my head from what I remember:

Cop was definately acting like an ass, he could have achieved his goal a lot easier
Cop obviously did not know what the law was in regards to open carry

The guy, from what I have seen on other message boards has a history of pulling stunts
I believe he was looking for a confrontation, perhaps for a payday
He could have made it go a whole lot easier if he had followed the officers instructions

[Common Sense Party]

2. Law or no law, you mess with the bull, you get the horns.

I don't see the point of openly TRYING to aggravate cops.

I'm perfectly happy with concealed carry. I'm the only one that has to know I'm carrying. Why should I advertise?

[YllwFvr]

4. how was he provoking the officer?

open carry does not justify this.

We have a huge problem down in philly. They will do the same to you for CC.

[rl6214]

9. I saw on another site that he has a history

of trying to provoke a confrontation. I'll try to find a link.

[YllwFvr]

10. ive seen the link

i haunt the forum he is a member of. Minor crap. Not a career criminal and no prohibiting offenses. Public drunkeness

[YllwFvr]

3. it could have gone even better

if this had been a mere encounter instead. No need for any of this from the officer

[Katya Mullethov]

6. As you might recall

This is the way it's supposed to go down (until it simply ends) .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFzH5Oe-YL4
So have you run across a better one yet ?

[YllwFvr]

7. that wouldnt fly here

thats california, and they have some pretty insane laws. I cant say with 100% certainty, our training doesnt give us info on what Philly does, but I know our courts have ruled mere possession of a weapon is not indicative of a crime, commonwealth vs Hawkins, so I doubt philly could get away with lawfully disarming someone.

Cali has a check system in place where an officer is supposed to check the firearm to see if its loaded. Edit: 12031(e) is the check for a loaded firearm

[PavePusher]

18. Actually, they have the option and the power to check.

But it's not manditory.

And some police there do it just to hassle the carriers, who can't generally get a Concealment Permit in those jurisdictions.

"Hassle" as in perform an "e-check", then 50 feet down the sidewalk, their partner does another "e-check", and repeat until their "authoritah" is established.

[YllwFvr]

20. Fantastic

I won't be that kind of LEO

[PavePusher]

28. And I thank you most sincerely for that.

To be honest, all my encounters with law enforcement have been quite professional, and due to my own actions. Of course the worst I've done is some minor speeding.

Thank you for your service.

[YllwFvr]

91. I have had my fair share of run ins with the law

for traffic. Ive even been stopped twice while riding a bicycle. Ive had decent officers every time but once. That guy soured it for me. I know every job has its pricks, but now I dont assume the guy pulling in behind me is a upstanding officer.

The issue was declaring I had a concealed weapon in the car. I used to do it every time until the officer gave me a huge deal for it, saying I could be cited or even arrested. Now I dont say anything. I dont ever want to have to do that again. I felt about two feet high after it.

I also avoid philly like the plague, mostly due to repeated incidents like the OP

[cleanhippie]

11. Notice how the cop, as pleasant as he was being...

continued to press for more information than he "needed"? My standard answer to those questions is simply "am I being detained or am I free to leave."

The guy in this incident did well, but his answers of "I'm not telling you" and "I don't have to give you that info" are usually met with hostility by most police officers.

[Kennah]

5. I listened through the whole tape

I lived in Harrisburg from 2003 to 2004, and despite everything I found saying a legit concealed carry license was valid ANYWHERE in PA, I still encountered a lot of "conventional wisdom" there was no concealed carry in Philly. There is very definitely a problem in Philly.

OC proponents sometimes seem to pursue confrontations, perhaps looking for paydays, but the same has been said at times of Act Up activists.

I'm not an open carrier, but if no one challenges inaccurate "conventional wisdom", then where does that leave us?

[PavePusher]

19. OC proponents seek "confrontations" in the same way that African-Americans did...

doing lunch-counter sit-ins and marches.

But I'm not supposed to mention that because, according to some people around here, carrying a gun isn't really a "Civil Right".

[Hoyt]

45. Not even close. Open carriers are hardly discriminated against to the extent of minorities.

Once again, when you are forced to use a special water fountain, told you can't apply for a job, told you can't go to a state supported university, lynched, beaten, etc., get back with me.

Until, then, think more of society than just your personal need to feel safe walking into a crowed public park, restaurant, etc.

In fact, learn how walk into public without a gun. You and the rest of us will be better off.

[PavePusher]

55. Civil Rights are Civil Rights....

and Discrimination is Discrimination.

We should not tolerate Discrimination (in the negative, pejorative sense) on any scale, no matter what the Right.

And Civilization is all about safety, for both the individual and the group. That's the entire point of the endevour.

[cleanhippie]

70. My nose is getting sore from all the facepalming your post elicit.

How can one person be so out of touch with reality is beyond me.

[one-eyed fat man]

8. Philly has a history

http://www.lineofduty.com/the-blotter/109540-yesno-would-you-have-taken-john-solomons-gun

In the last two years, Philadelphia police have confiscated guns from at least nine men - including four security guards - who were carrying them legally, and only one of the guns has been returned, according to interviews with the men.

The civil-rights unit of the City Solicitor's Office confirmed that it is handling eight cases of "constitutional claims that civil rights were violated by us taking their property and by them being falsely arrested." Two of the men interviewed by the Daily News said that they rejected settlement offers from the city ranging from $3,500 to $7,500. One accepted a $5,000 offer.

Two of the security guards said that they were on the job when their guns were taken, and that they were holding licenses issued by the state police to security officers under Pennsylvania Act 235, the Lethal Weapons Training Act.

Despite following the law, all of the men said that they were treated like criminals by city cops who either ignored their rights or didn't know the laws.

Lt. Fran Healy, special adviser to the police commissioner, acknowledged that some city cops apparently are unfamiliar with some concealed-carry permits. Both Healy and Craig Straw, chief deputy city solicitor with the civil-rights unit, said that they could not speak to individual cases because of pending litigation.

In one case, the police told the individual he was being arrested for being "insolent." His crime, loitering at a bus stop. Now, exactly, just what are bus stops for, but to loiter while you wait for the bus to show up.

Apparently the Philadelphia police feel it necessary to remind the "insolent darkies" of their place.

[era veteran]

118. The Philly PD has deployed air power before and burned up

a couple of blocks. The end result that a shotgun and a couple of pistols( I remember not much) were pulled from the ashes.

[Hoyt]

12. Obviously the carrier was looking for trouble -- I'm into recording, but don't carry one with a gun.

If he'd not paraded around with a friggin gun on his hip, nothing would have happened.

[lawodevolution]

13. Someone has to remind the police about the BOR and keep you free

[Hoyt]

14. Free to do what? Walk down a public street with a friggin gun poking out.

The guy left his house with the intent of being an Ahole. He accomplished it twice -- carrying a gun in a peaceful section of town and having his recorder on even before the police did anything. If he'd complied with the officer rather than running his mouth, it would have ended once they had a chance to sort things out.

Hope they jerk his permit.

[rl6214]

17. Wait, did you forget you said this

"I'm into recording"

"hope they jerk his permit"

He wasn't charged with anything, they can't "jerk his permit"

[Hoyt]

40. I don't walk out the door with my recorder looking for a confrontation with police.

While they were occupied with his smart ass, something could have happened.

The guy wanted to have a confrontation with the police, and he was armed. If he'd kept his smartass mouth shut and listened to police, none of this would have happened. I've known a few gun carriers like him, and they should never have been issued a permit.

[lawodevolution]

30. "Hope they jerk his permit.". This is why I support constitutional carry

In a free society you don't need a permit to practice a right. In a fascist shithole the government can control people by revoking their "permit" to practice a privilege.

[Hoyt]

41. Sorry, states can and do limit who can walk down a public street with a gun in their waistband.

And the Constitution does not give unfettered rights to those who are not in a well regulated militia.

Nor, should some smart ass intent on a confrontation expect society to pat him on the head.

Legal or not, people should be more respectful of society and the fact that over 300 million do not carry.

[hack89]

53. But in this case what he did was completely legal

so what's your point? That cops can decide what laws they want to enforce?

[Hoyt]

65. I'm not sure it is legal to pack a gun in neighborhoods attempting to create a confrontation.

[hack89]

76. Well - you could always try to find the actual statute. nt

[oneshooter]

79. That would require him to actually look up some facts, it would ruin his whole day!! n/t

[YllwFvr]

93. this has been in court many times

Open Carry does not meet the statutory requirements of Disorderly Conduct, Terroristic Threats, or Inciting a Riot. There is no brandishing law in Pa.

[Hoyt]

103. Look up strutting/parading with gun while recording police and see what you find.

If it ain't illegal it sure is silly.

Maybe next time some unarmed citizen will boot the fool in the arse and then dare him to shoot them right there in the middle of the street while recording the toter with video rolling.

[YllwFvr]

110. That would be simple assault

you could certainly call the police

[Straw Man]

81. unfettered rights?

You say that like it's a bad thing...

[lawodevolution]

85. fascists don't like rights

[lawodevolution]

84. every year there are more states that have constitutional carry

bit by bit we are taking power out of the hands of government and putting it back in the hands of the people against your wishes, hoyt. Get used to it. Find a shrink and deal with it.

[PavePusher]

88. You were correct on one item:

"And the Constitution does not give unfettered rights".... and you should have stopped there.

The Constitution does not "give" anything. It is a document that limits the power of government and recognizes and protects Rights that were pre-existing.


Your appeal to the "militia clause" is, of course, as non-factual as has been repeatedly explained to you before.

If you can prove grammatically, historically and through the recorded thoughts and debates of the authors, that the Right is limited to members of a Militia, I will seriously consider it.

Just remember to never bitch about militias ever again, if you want to retain any last shred of credibility.

[Hoyt]

115. There are plenty of legal scholars who disagree with you. I guess you never sought those out.

[YllwFvr]

92. He broke no law.

It is well established that Pa is an open carry state. Philly too. Yes, states can put limitations on carry to a certain extent, but Pa has a very strong, very pro gun amendment to its own constitution that is more strongly pro gun than the 2a. Article 1, Section 21, the right of the people to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves and the state shall not be questioned.

Next, he IS part of the militia. So am I. So is any other male between certain ages. 17 and 45 I believe, no time to look it up now. He wasnt looking for a confrontation. If you carry a gun in philly, concealed or not, expect a higher chance of having someone call the cops on you. He had the recorder running from the time he walked out the door.

Its not just legal. In Pa it is seen as a civil right. CC is a privilege, OC is a right. Philly cannot pass laws regulating firearms, Title 18 pa consolidated statues 6120
"General rule.--No county, municipality or township may in any manner regulate the lawful ownership, possession, transfer or transportation of firearms, ammunition or ammunition components when carried or transported for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this Commonwealth."

The state makes the laws, and they are fine with OC statewide

[right2bfree]

34. I wish he'd try that in a gangland area, not a easy part of town. He's have been slugged upside.....

the head and in the back of a squad car in seconds flat.

What an idiot!!!

[PavePusher]

58. Why do you advocate violence against people actively exercising their Rights?

and violence from the police, no less....

This does not speak well of you. You may be at the wrong website...

[hack89]

38. They had nothing to sort out

he was peacefully exercising a civil right.

[Hoyt]

42. An uncommon "right" where the officer had responsibility to determine what he was doing.

Walking down the street like John Travolta with a gun swinging from his hip and a recorder in his pocket hoping for a confrontation.

The guy was looking for a confrontation (had a recorder on record) and was likely acting confrontational. I'm glad the police are checking folks out who are walking around on the street with a gun -- an unusual site in Philadelphia.

[hack89]

50. But the cop couldn't be polite and professional?

the guy was not an overt threat - he was not brandishing his weapon or verbally threatening anyone. He was just walking down the street.

He was not breaking the law - the cop should have known that. That being the case, do you really support cops pointing guns at law abiding citizens anytime they want?

[Hoyt]

63. The guy was confrontational - recorder running - and obviously had an attitude with gun sticking out

He should have complied with police. Instead he egged it on to get a good recording.

[YllwFvr]

94. its called a mere encounter

if dispatch asked the questions it should (what is the mwag doing? is the gun out? is he threatening anyone? whats his demeanor?) the officer can approach and observe the man for himself before confronting him with, in my opinion, nothing more than a mere encounter. I dont see the need for an investigatory detention. Threat of deadly;y force is certainly unnecessary. The recorder means nothing. If the officer is doing his job he shouldnt care.

[Hoyt]

116. The recorder means the SOB walked out his door with the purpose of creating a confrontation.

People like that, typically look the part -- Like george bush strutting.

[cleanhippie]

120. So now, law abiding citizens, doing NOTHING illegal, are SOB's?

A new low, even for you.

[PavePusher]

123. I open carry quite frequently....

and almost always carry a recorder. Because police have been known to hassle legal behavior in some places.

I am never looking for a confrontation, merely interested in protecting my Civil Rights. All of them.

[Hoyt]

127. Jeeeez, you must need a lot of pockets. Leave em and the recorder at home and enjoy spring time.

And let the rest of us enjoy it too without folks packing guns.

[PavePusher]

130. I do enjoy spring.

Hell, I'm up in Salt Lake doing a bunch of skiing, bicycling and range shooting with my brother.

I suggest you take some of your own advice.

'Don't worry, be happy'

[right2bfree]

35. Remind the police that the city doenst allow open carry of a deadly gun? nt

[PavePusher]

59. Your claim is.... incorrect. Look it up. n/t

[oneshooter]

61. "The city" has no say in the matter, state law overrides it. n/t

[lawodevolution]

86. you've been informed by the two posts above this one

have a nice day

[gravity556]

90. I find your disdain for someone

exercising a right and breaking no laws and your username to be rather ironic. "Right2bfree, unless I don't like what you're doing!"

[YllwFvr]

22. So since he broke no laws...

He should have his LTCF revoked?

[right2bfree]

33. He will have his gun permit revoked...thankfully!! We dont need idiots like this on the streets. nt

[Hoyt]

43. Agreeeeeeeeeeee!! We don't need people looking for a confrontation carrying a gun in public.

What was the jerk going to do if an unarmed private citizen questioned his parading around in a neighborhood with a gun?

[YllwFvr]

96. same thing every OCer does when questioned

offer them a flyer that most carry with them explaining the rights of gun owners in the state. Answer any questions politely, and be courteous. Happens all the time.

[Hoyt]

107. This guy did not do that. Plus, police need to subdue the OCer until they are sure he's not a threat

(Which of course they can't do because any person walking around in public is clearly a threat -- even if the OCer doesn't think he is.) You carry in public, you suffer the consequences.

[PavePusher]

109. "Police need to subdue..." a person not commiting a crime?

That.... does not put you in a good light at all.

In fact, I think you are now officially at the wrong website.

[YllwFvr]

111. needs to be subdued?

Allow me to provide you with some PA case law:Commonwealth vs Hawkins. I will quote you the meat of it

The Commonwealth takes the radical position that police have a duty to
stop and frisk when they receive information from any source that a suspect has
a gun. Since it is not illegal to carry a licensed gun in Pennsylvania,4 it is
difficult to see where this shocking idea originates, notwithstanding the
Commonwealth's fanciful and histrionic references to maniacs who may spray
schoolyards with gunfire and assassins of public figures who may otherwise go
undetected. Even if the Constitution of Pennsylvania would permit such
invasive police activity as the Commonwealth proposes -- which it does not --
such activity seems more likely to endanger than to protect the public.
Unnecessary police intervention, by definition, produces the possibility of
conflict where none need exist.
Contrary to the Commonwealth's view, the public will receive its full
measure of protection by police who act within the restraints imposed on them
by Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution of Pennsylvania and this court's relevant
caselaw. "

Article I section 8
The right of the people to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves and the state shall not be questioned

[hack89]

52. Let me get this straight

he complied with all applicable law concerning open carry and he should have his permit revoked? In what world do we punish people for obeying the law?

[Hoyt]

57. Pushing the envelop is what I'd call it. Leaving home with intent to cause a confrontation.

Being "lawful" does not make it right. The jerk should have listened to the police rather than trying to make a recording of a confrontation he purposely caused.

[hack89]

77. But being lawful means you shouldn't be threatened by the cops. nt

[Hoyt]

82. The police were trying to make sure the guy was lawful. He was a smart ass intent on confrontation.

[cleanhippie]

83. No, the police did not KNOW the law. He IS lawful openly carrying. No reason to "check" him at all.

He was following the law as it is written. Its the cops who overstepped their bounds. Typical of the ignorant authoritarian attitude displayed in your posts.

[Hoyt]

89. Now, how the hell do they know Tony Manero strutting down the stree with a gun is "lawful".

The dude was out for a confrontation and the officer picked it up. The gun toter has to show his license just like any car driver does. The fool was toting and looking for a confrontation. Guns and confrontational people don't mix. Cancel his license.

[cleanhippie]

101. If in your world, walking down the street is "out for a confrontation", that is an f-ed up world

Open carry ==== legal activity

Walking down the street ==== legal activity



For what possible reason would the police have to stop and question a person, at gunpoint, for doing perfectly legal activities?

[Hoyt]

102. Strutting while recording with a gun sticking out is clearly looking for confrontation in any world.

Well except for those who can't walk down the street without a gun.

[cleanhippie]

104. So you are now advocating for the suppression of "strutting" and "recording"?

Again, both of those, including the open carry of a gun, are all perfectly legal activities.


So I ask again, for what reason would police need to confront a person, at gunpoint, for participating in a legal activity?

[Hoyt]

106. So, if a criminal walks down the street with a gun, the police can't ask for his permit?

Sorry, but the police are supposed to check such things. I expect them to and so should you.

Seems to me that you expect the police to just smile when a fool with a gun on his hip walks down the street in any ole neighborhood. If you are going to carry a gun, every policeman that sees it should ask for a permit. And, I would not blame a policeman for pointing a gun at the carrier's head while he reaches for the permit, or handcuffing him first. Sorry that's the way it is if you chose to disrupt public places by parading around with a gun (and it's worse if you are carrying a recorder looking for a confrontation).

[PavePusher]

108. If the person is a known criminal, yes.

If not... observe and report until they commit an action that warrants legal investigation.

Mere presance of a firearm, a Constitutional Right, is not, in and of itself, grounds for investigation.

How many times do you have to be told this?

[Kennah]

112. What would have been wrong with ...

... "Sir, do you have a License To Carry?"

Whether it's Fred Bin Laden about to go postal, or just some guy with a license to carry, the approach should be the same.

I've been stopped by the police for traffic infractions, and traffic stops are statistically very dangerous places. Unless I match the description of a wanted criminal, or I'm otherwise violating the law like by attempting to evade or elude the police, I would not expect the officer to approach the car with their gun pointed at me.

[cleanhippie]

122. Because he doesnt have or need a permit to be asked for.

Open carry is perfectly legal in PA, no permit required, or issued.

[PavePusher]

124. Actually, there is a requirement to have a licence/permit in order to O.C. in Philly.

Some "City of the First Class" legal mumbo-jumbo, designed to infringe on Civil Rights.

Edit: http://www.opencarry.com/pa.html

[cleanhippie]

121. Its OPEN CARRY, NO PERMIT IS NEEDED! FFS, man, do try and keep up!

No they cannot ask for his permit, he doesnt fucking need one.

[oneshooter]

64. The cops were wrong. They can not revoke a permit issued by the STATE. FAIL! n/t

[YllwFvr]

95. incorrect, nice try

this has been to court as well. Open Carry does not meet the character clause in the Licenses section of the uniform firearms act.

[cleanhippie]

71. Translation: "If they would have just sat in the back of the bus...."

Disgusting.

[RSillsbee]

15. Two things

1. When the cop is pointing a gun at you is not the time to argue, that was stupid.

2. At about four minutes into the audio I heard the carrier invokes his right to remain silent. He then continues to talk to the cop!?!? If you invoke your 5th amendment rights you shut up. Do not say another word


When I OC I generally don't carry a seperate recorder because theres an app for that and I live in a Free State where they really don't care but I've seen enough instances of cops stepping waaay over the line towards OC'rs that I understand why someone would

[aikoaiko]

31. Scenes like this make me support the open carry activists.

I don't open carry, but its clear to me that they advance the RKBA cause by shining a bright light on discrimination and ignorance.

[YllwFvr]

97. you in NH?

if so, you are a lucky devil. These guys are pushing gun rights and doing quite well. I wish them well

[RSillsbee]

105. Colorado

Which is faaaar more hip than NH

[YllwFvr]

113. not aware of anything in particular

with colorado. Mostly the states that come to mind when I think of gun rights are NH, Alaska, Vermont, and to a lesser extent, Virgina

[RSillsbee]

117. We're trying to pass constituional carry

For the most part, as I pointed out earlier, as long as you stay out of Denver no one really gives a damn if you open carry

[YllwFvr]

119. No preemption?

Or don't they care? Our like philly they do it there own way?

[PavePusher]

125. Denver has a "home rule" exemption, IIRC.

http://www.opencarry.com/co.html

[RSillsbee]

126. State Preemption

But Denver has "Home Rule" status. I don't understand the details but, bottom line, Denver doesn't have to obey preemption. The have a "Assault Weapon" ban too

[YllwFvr]

100. I understand what you are saying

In point number one, yet as much as you prepare for a situation it goes to hell often enough when it comes down to it. The indignity if being stopped and harassed for doing nothing wrong is overwhelming for many.I've argued with the police before, at the tail end of the stop after having complied with his bs. He was still wrong, but he at least listened. Just misinformed.

[VoteProgressive]

16. Open Carry is a dumb idea in my book. Hurts the gun cause.

[spin]

21. Personally I agree.

Florida is working on an open carry bill.

Florida's 'open carry' gun bill clears another hurdle

TALLAHASSEE -- A bill allowing gun owners with concealed-weapons permits to carry their firearms openly cleared its second legislative hurdle in less than 24 hours this morning.

***snip***

Marion Hammer, the veteran lobbyist for the National Rifle Association, said there have been several prosecutions of law-abiding gun owners for "brandishing" their weapons by accidentally letting them show in public. She and Dorworth said 43 states allow open carry of guns by concealed-weapons license holders, but very few people choose to do so.


"It's not about strapping guns on your hips and walking around," said Hammer. "I don't know anybody who wants to do that."
http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20110315/BREAKINGNEWS/110315002/Florida-s-open-carry-gun-bill-clears-another-hurdle

I have no interest in openly carry a handgun so that everybody can see it. There have been times in the winter when I wore a light jacket over a S&W model 60 .357 magnum in an inside the waist band holster. When I did I tried to be extra careful not to "flash" the weapon but there have was one time in a parking lot when a sudden wind blew my jacket open. It might have panicked some person if they would have noticed the revolver in my holster. If they would have chosen to call the police, I might have been considered to have brandished the weapon. After that incident, I decided to go back to carrying my S&W Model 642 snub nosed revolver in my pants pocket.

Normally in the heat of the Florida summer, wearing a jacket to conceal a firearm makes me look out of place and could be a give away to someone that I was carrying. Not wishing to encounter some fool dumb enough to attempt to take my weapon from me, I chose to carry the snubbie in my pocket.

Therefore, I can see some advantages in the open carry law in Florida.

I haven't read the exact text of the bill, so I'm not sure if it would allow an individual to carry a firearm openly without any attempt to conceal it. But even if it were legal, I would have no reason to do so. I would prefer not to disturb other people around me. Nor does my daughter or my son in law who also have concealed weapons permits.

[VoteProgressive]

25. Same ti me, turns some people off. nt

[mvccd1000]

26. I've always wondered about the split between...

... CCW supporters and 2A supporters. CCW supporters will often argue vociferously against the people who cry "blood in the streets" when a state passes a CCW law, but will then turn around and very nearly cry the same thing when open carry is proposed.

Have you lived in a state like Virginia Arizona where it's common and readily accepted? People don't freak out over the sight in parking lots, or call 911 because they saw a pistol. Open carry causes no more of the "sky is falling" scenarios than concealed carry did when it became common.

I like living in a place where I can do either (or neither) as I choose. :)

[RSillsbee]

36. I open carry in Colorado Springs frequently

Most people don't even notice. I've said that before and I suppose to be fair I should point out I generally OC a S&W compact 9mm not some big honkin' .50 cal Desert Eagle and that may be why people don't notice

[spin]

66. Concealed carry has been the law for years in Florida ...

I have seen firearms carried openly in Ohio when I was growing up. An older man used to walk down the main street of Ashtabula Ohio with two holstered Colt .45 Peacemakers holstered on his side. In Mississippi I have seen hunters come into a grocery store with holstered handguns back in the mid 60s.

If I lived in an area where open carry was common and accepted, I might have a different attitude. As I said, I have no desire to disturb people. If open carry becomes legal and common in Florida, I might consider it. I have to admit that I do often carry a knife with a 4" fixed blade on my side in a sheath. That attracts no attention where I currently live but might result in problems in a larger more urban area.

[oneshooter]

46. Texas has no brandishing laws. n/t

[spin]

69. Interesting. Thanks. (n/t)

[YllwFvr]

98. what is the law they charge texans with

if the firearm becomes visible? I think you've explained this to me before, forgive me I cannot remember.

[X_Digger]

132. Intentional failure to conceal

paragraph (a) of section 46.035: "A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun."

[mvccd1000]

23. But helps the deterrent cause.

If I'm at an ATM at midnight depositing my check as I get off 2nd shift and I have a CCW, I may look like a tempting target. I'll then be likely to have to USE that CCW.

If I'm at an ATM at midnight depositing my check as I get off 2nd shift and I'm open carrying, any potential criminal is likely to see a pistol and continue his search for an easy target elsewhere.

I'd much rather avoid the confrontation in the first place than "surprise" him with my tactically superior CCW.

[VoteProgressive]

24. Could go both ways.....

Might just head shot you first. Never know!

[mvccd1000]

27. And lightning "could" strike me, or...

... the ATM could fall out of the wall and crush me.

If you can show me even ONE example of an open carrier being attacked preemptively because he was open carrying, I'll revise my opinion. Until then, the proven deterrent value of open carry easily outweighs the "tactical advantage" of concealed carry.

Me? I don't want to "surprise" the guy with my gun. I don't even want to SEE the guy. If he sees my gun and keeps on walking, that's vastly preferable to having him come up to me, attempting to lull me with conversation or panhandling until he can get close enough to try something. At that point, I nearly have to introduce the gun to the situation. That's not my goal - my goal is to avoid dealing with him in the first place. Open carry has a much better chance of achieving my goal than concealed carry does.

[PavePusher]

29. Not much available in documentation to support that theory, as far as I've seen.

No insult intended, but it's a lot like the "blood in the streets, any day now" "argument" from the anti-Rights groups.

[spin]

68. I avoid outside ATMs during the late night hours ...

And I learned to love direct deposit as it saves me time and effort.

Like you, I prefer to avoid confrontation.

[right2bfree]

32. Why ,oh, why do people think they can just pack guns willy-nilly?..

think that would have happened here had we had a gun toter like this person
packing a loaded gun around, like a big shot.

[RSillsbee]

37. Because we can? NT

[hack89]

39. Because the law says you can? nt

[Hoyt]

44. The law says you can do a lot of things that decent people don't do.

You can wear mink coats.
You can smoke stinking cigars in many places.
Corporations can ship jobs overseas.
Plenty more.

This guy was looking for a confrontation -- and that's enough to stop him. Guns and a confrontational attitude don't mix. What was the jerk going to do if an unarmed private citizen questioned his parading around in a neighborhood with a gun?

[oneshooter]

47. Be polite, and continue on his way. n/t

[Hoyt]

48. Yea, the guy was looking for a confrontation with his recorder running.

He was probably walking like Tony Manero hoping to start a confrontation. He got one.

[Euromutt]

128. What does "Saturday Night Fever" have to do with this?

Also, are you singularly incapable of making the distinction between "hoping to start a confrontation" and merely being prepared for one?

[rrneck]

129. Hundred bucks he's riffing

on "Stayin' Alive".

He should write for TV. UHF TV.

[PavePusher]

131. Apparently, if I have a spare tire, I'm "hoping for a flat".

If I carry first-aid supplies, I'm "hoping for an injury".

Or something.

[one-eyed fat man]

49. You can even appoint yourself

the self-righteous arbiter of what is decent. You're in good company.

[Hoyt]

60. Guns in public and true "civil/human rights" aren't even remotely comparable.

You guys crack me up comparing packing a gun in public to the atrocities committed against minorities in this country.

In fact, most openly pro-gunners are TParty members/sympathizers. And we know how they feel about civil/human rights.

[YllwFvr]

99. in pa it IS a right

cc is a privilege, OC is a right. Our constitution is more pro gun than the 2a is

[hack89]

51. "He was looking for a confrontation" - a cops dream excuse

too dark skinned- "He was looking for a confrontation"

too Muslim - "He was looking for a confrontation"

too gay - "He was looking for a confrontation"

too outspoken - "He was looking for a confrontation"


Is it too hard to expect that a citizen who is clearly not breaking the law should be able to walk down a street without a cop sticking a gun in his face?

[Hoyt]

62. The jerk had his recorder running as he strolled down a public street with his gun poking out.

Are the police supposed to assume he's a nice guy. If the fool had complied with police when they stopped him, this would have been over pretty quickly. Instead, he tried to provoke the incident to record it. That's the type of person who should not be allowed to carry. But, that is often the type of person who does.

[YllwFvr]

114. and how did he provoke the incident?

They shouldnt have stopped him beyond a mere encounter. Thats called "unlawful detention" and may meet the statutory requirements of false arrest and kidnapping. By law... yes, they have to assume he is a nice guy without reasonably articulable suspicion that he has committed a crime, or is about to commit a crime.

The entire encounter was unlawful, I dont blame the carrier for speaking up. Plus, without this audio, the cops would have gotten away scott free and it would be his word against theres. Im sure that would have gone well. The cop who follows the rules and abides by his oath need not fear the camera.

[cleanhippie]

72. And just like clockwork: when your argument falls on its face, out come the insults.

Stay classy.

[Hoyt]

74. Carrying a gun in a Philadelphia neighborhood is hardly "classy."

[cleanhippie]

75. That debatable. But what is not debatable is the fact that you hurl insults when you can't argue.

School on a holiday, Hoyt, school on a holiday.

[Llewlladdwr]

80. Decent people don't wear mink coats?

Christ on a crutch. I suppose you think 'leather is murder!!!' too, huh?

[PavePusher]

87. Mink is a renewable, sustainable resource.

Hello..., McFly...?

[one-eyed fat man]

54. Because the law says so.

Our Court of Appeals made it pretty plain.

"In our state the legislature is empowered only to deny to citizens the right to carry concealed weapons. The constitutional provision is an affirmation of the faith that all men have the inherent right to arm themselves for the defense of themselves and of the state... If the gun is worn outside the jacket or shirt in full view, no one may question the wearer’s right so to do."Kentucky Court of Appeals. Holland v. Commonwealth, Ky., 294 S.W.2d 893 (Ky. 1956)

"It is the tradition that a Kentuckian never runs. He does not have to...he is not obligated to retreat, nor to consider whether he can safely retreat, but is entitled to stand his ground, and meet any (life-threatening) attack made upon him with a deadly weapon..." Kentucky Court of Appeals. Gibson v. Commonwealth,i 34 SW 936 (Ky. 1931)

I prefer living in a State where the right to be free is not an eponymous delusion.

[PavePusher]

56. Why must you continuously denigrate those who actively exercise their Civil Rights?

You some kind of "big shot" or sumpin'?

[Hoyt]

67. Why must you denigrate human/minority rights with gun promoting "civil rights" metaphors?

[PavePusher]

73. I have denigrated nothing.

Bearing arms is a Civil Right, whether you like it or not.

And I have never claimed that the discrimination is compareable in degree.

Make up some more stuff....

[ProgressiveProfessor]

78. Why must you continue to support repressive, classist and racist laws?